Did you catch the message from President Nelson

[Silver]

TMBro, are you suggesting that “forever families” are pipe dreams because Jesus will split them up? Or are you suggesting that Jesus never said anything about eternal or forever families? I tend to think that Jesus meant that when you truly follow him in doing God’s will (as opposed to the religious leaders/pharessees’ will), some in your family will object and unfortunately may shun or choose the religion over you. Sounds familiar.
http://familyfirstweddings.com/category/blog/

Moreover, priestcraft (charging for worthiness) is wrong, as is using temples to make money.

I might have missed your post saying that you are an ex-Mormon. Is it true?

[Finrock]

Affirming something doesn't necessarily deny something else.

Pretty safe to say this is exactly what President Nelson is saying, confirmed by the fact that no other modern prophet has ever outlined an alternative way to receive ordinances and make covenants with the Lord when there is a temple on the earth and modern scripture also confirms that fact.

If you believe there are other ways in our day to receive ordinances and make covenants with God outside of the temple that is inconsistent with the teachings of every single prophet of the restoration.

Ordinances are not like diet and exercise.

Have you experienced something that leads you to believe differently or know someone who claims they have? Or are you just saying anything is possible? Why do you disagree?

I recognize that ordinances are just a way to help people come unto Christ or to receive Christ. Ordinances are a means, not the end. The law is a schoolmaster. If you adhere to the law in spirit and live the principles that the law points to in sincerity, then you will be lead to Christ and will receive Him. I don't doubt that at all. But at the same time many people who are not Mormon and who don't live under the law have received Christ. While many Mormons who live the law with determination and vigorously, in the end know nothing of Christ. We can see it manifested in their works and in who they are. It is the results that matter. The analogy was not about ordinances, it was about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Ordinances change, temple ordinances change, baptism ordinances change, how we implement principles has and will likely change in the future. But, the principles of Christ do not change and Christ is eternal. A person, regardless of their social group or background, who is filled with the pure love of Christ will in no wise lose their reward, whether they received this charity through the school master or through the circumstances of their life, the result in the end will be the same. Christ is Christ.

-Finrock

[drtanner]

Trying to understand what you are saying here so a couple follow up questions:

If ordinances are just the means, are you saying they are not necessary to be brought back into the presence of God? (assuming the individual is worthy and has their heart in the right place of course) If they are necessary, are you saying that you can receive them through another venue outside of the authority of the church / temple in our day?

"Many people who are not Mormon and who don't live under the law have received Christ."

What do you mean "receive Christ"? Does that mean they accept what he has done? Have faith that he lived? Do there best to repent and follow him? Been Sanctified by him? Received the Holy Ghost? What are you saying here and do you have any specific examples.

[David13]

It’s interesting that the one time Jesus expressed anger is when people were using the temple to make money.

I used to love the temple. They are all so beautiful inside & out. But now they represent something different: charging for worthiness (temple used to make money - hefty 10% of income to enter) & breaking up families. Many people like my dad could not see their own children marry. That’s not of God to break up families like that. Joseph Smith invited the public, including nonmembers to celestial weddings, maybe because he saw it as a family time, rather a breaking-up family time.

I think your thinking here is far too cynical.
Paying a tithe is Biblical, and not an admission fee.

A sister the other day mentioned that she copes with trials and tribulations by keeping her life simple.
That's an important lesson I came upon some years ago, that rather than continue to seek to complicate my life, I could find happiness in simplifying my life. Simpler is better. Easier, and where we all go in the end.
dc

[Zowieink]

I find this a very interesting subject. If we got the same message, then where are the patrons? Why are sessions (for the most part) outside of the Wasatch Front, struggling with very low patron participation in endowment sessions, in initiatory? To me, Pres. Nelson's statement was most forceful and true. There is no other way except through the path designated by modern prophets (all of them) to sanctify ourselves, first by receiving those ordinances which are essential to salvation, and then second by providing those ordinances to others in the spirit world so that they may choose and have a chance and thus become a "Savior on Mount Zion".

If a person accepts that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true church, and that a prophet of God directs it, and that the authority to perform the essential ordinances has been restored, then the conclusion is that a person needs the temple ordinances to return to God. If we do not have them, we will be found lacking.

[Arenera]

Affirming something doesn't necessarily deny something else.

Pretty safe to say this is exactly what President Nelson is saying, confirmed by the fact that no other modern prophet has ever outlined an alternative way to receive ordinances and make covenants with the Lord when there is a temple on the earth and modern scripture also confirms that fact.

If you believe there are other ways in our day to receive ordinances and make covenants with God outside of the temple that is inconsistent with the teachings of every single prophet of the restoration.

Ordinances are not like diet and exercise.

Have you experienced something that leads you to believe differently or know someone who claims they have? Or are you just saying anything is possible? Why do you disagree?

I recognize that ordinances are just a way to help people come unto Christ or to receive Christ. Ordinances are a means, not the end. The law is a schoolmaster. If you adhere to the law in spirit and live the principles that the law points to in sincerity, then you will be lead to Christ and will receive Him. I don't doubt that at all. But at the same time many people who are not Mormon and who don't live under the law have received Christ. While many Mormons who live the law with determination and vigorously, in the end know nothing of Christ. We can see it manifested in their works and in who they are. It is the results that matter. The analogy was not about ordinances, it was about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Ordinances change, temple ordinances change, baptism ordinances change, how we implement principles has and will likely change in the future. But, the principles of Christ do not change and Christ is eternal. A person, regardless of their social group or background, who is filled with the pure love of Christ will in no wise lose their reward, whether they received this charity through the school master or through the circumstances of their life, the result in the end will be the same. Christ is Christ.

-Finrock

Christ is Christ, and just like God, the rules stay the same. Just like Christ was baptized, we too must be baptized. If we want to take it further, we make the covenants in the Temple.

There isn’t another way. That is why we do the covenants by proxy for those who have died and have not received the covenants.

President Nelson’s announcement was held at the Salt Lake Temple. Symbolic for a reason.

[Finrock]

Trying to understand what you are saying here so a couple follow up questions:

If ordinances are just the means, are you saying they are not necessary to be brought back into the presence of God? (assuming the individual is worthy and has their heart in the right place of course) If they are necessary, are you saying that you can receive them through another venue outside of the authority of the church / temple in our day?

"Many people who are not Mormon and who don't live under the law have received Christ."

What do you mean "receive Christ"? Does that mean they accept what he has done? Have faith that he lived? Do there best to repent and follow him? Been Sanctified by him? Received the Holy Ghost? What are you saying here and do you have any specific examples.

14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

-Finrock

[drtanner]

Trying to understand what you are saying here so a couple follow up questions:

If ordinances are just the means, are you saying they are not necessary to be brought back into the presence of God? (assuming the individual is worthy and has their heart in the right place of course) If they are necessary, are you saying that you can receive them through another venue outside of the authority of the church / temple in our day?

"Many people who are not Mormon and who don't live under the law have received Christ."

What do you mean "receive Christ"? Does that mean they accept what he has done? Have faith that he lived? Do there best to repent and follow him? Been Sanctified by him? Received the Holy Ghost? What are you saying here and do you have any specific examples.

14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

-Finrock

Both these prophets are speaking to those who are "of the church" In Moroni 7 he is quoting his father who says, "Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church"

So the questions still remains unanswered. For example, In order to be "born of god" do you need ordinances, or authority? These scriptures do not answer what you are saying specifically about people who are not Mormon and how they "receive Christ"

[Finrock]

Trying to understand what you are saying here so a couple follow up questions:

If ordinances are just the means, are you saying they are not necessary to be brought back into the presence of God? (assuming the individual is worthy and has their heart in the right place of course) If they are necessary, are you saying that you can receive them through another venue outside of the authority of the church / temple in our day?

"Many people who are not Mormon and who don't live under the law have received Christ."

What do you mean "receive Christ"? Does that mean they accept what he has done? Have faith that he lived? Do there best to repent and follow him? Been Sanctified by him? Received the Holy Ghost? What are you saying here and do you have any specific examples.

14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

-Finrock

Both these prophets are speaking to those who are "of the church" In Moroni 7 he is quoting his father who says, "Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church"

So the questions still remains unanswered. For example, In order to be "born of god" do you need ordinances, or authority? These scriptures do not answer what you are saying specifically about people who are not Mormon and how they "receive Christ"

Have you received His image in your countenance? Are you filled with His love? If you have received Christ you don't need me to tell you about it. Open your eyes and look around and see if you can find Christ in the countenance of those who are around you, in and out of the Church. Remember that ALL things fail, except charity. In the end, though, you are free to believe as you wish.

-Finrock

[drtanner]

Trying to understand what you are saying here so a couple follow up questions:

If ordinances are just the means, are you saying they are not necessary to be brought back into the presence of God? (assuming the individual is worthy and has their heart in the right place of course) If they are necessary, are you saying that you can receive them through another venue outside of the authority of the church / temple in our day?



What do you mean "receive Christ"? Does that mean they accept what he has done? Have faith that he lived? Do there best to repent and follow him? Been Sanctified by him? Received the Holy Ghost? What are you saying here and do you have any specific examples.

14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

-Finrock

Both these prophets are speaking to those who are "of the church" In Moroni 7 he is quoting his father who says, "Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church"

So the questions still remains unanswered. For example, In order to be "born of god" do you need ordinances, or authority? These scriptures do not answer what you are saying specifically about people who are not Mormon and how they "receive Christ"

Have you received His image in your countenance? Are you filled with His love? If you have received Christ you don't need me to tell you about it. Open your eyes and look around and see if you can find Christ in the countenance of those who are around you, in and out of the Church. Remember that ALL things fail, except charity. In the end, though, you are free to believe as you wish.

-Finrock

I'm doing my best to read between the lines of what you are trying to say but it is really ambiguous. Just trying to understand what you believe and what you are trying to communicate about "Receiving Christ" If this is contingent on our relationship with him and returning to live with them I can't think of anything we should be more CLEAR on.

To me it is clear:

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

Ordinances are critical but are not valid without the heart, real repentance, no hypocrisy and deception before God, etc. The question you keep avoiding is if you think you can receive ordinances outside of the COJCOLDS

[Finrock]

-Finrock

Both these prophets are speaking to those who are "of the church" In Moroni 7 he is quoting his father who says, "Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church"

So the questions still remains unanswered. For example, In order to be "born of god" do you need ordinances, or authority? These scriptures do not answer what you are saying specifically about people who are not Mormon and how they "receive Christ"

Have you received His image in your countenance? Are you filled with His love? If you have received Christ you don't need me to tell you about it. Open your eyes and look around and see if you can find Christ in the countenance of those who are around you, in and out of the Church. Remember that ALL things fail, except charity. In the end, though, you are free to believe as you wish.

-Finrock

I'm doing my best to read between the lines of what you are trying to say but it is really ambiguous. Just trying to understand what you believe and what you are trying to communicate about "Receiving Christ" If this is contingent on our relationship with him and returning to live with them I can't think of anything we should be more CLEAR on.

To me it is clear:

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

Ordinances are critical but are not valid without the heart, real repentance, no hypocrisy and deception before God, etc. The question you keep avoiding is if you think you can receive ordinances outside of the COJCOLDS

People have received Christ, received His countenance, are filled with His love, without being members of the Church. You apparently believe that when the Book of Mormon says that "whoso is found possessed of [the pure love of Christ] at the last day, it shall be well with him" only applies to Mormons or members of the Church. I don't believe that. I believe that view is sociocentric and elitist in nature and it just doesn't jive with reality. I don't believe that the scripture should be read, as you've implied, that "whoso [being a member of the Mormon Church] is found possessed of [the pure love of Christ] at the last day, it shall be well with him" and that no other people on this planet can receive the countenance of Christ in their image or be filled with His love by praying for it with all of their heart unless they've become members of the Mormon Church. That makes the ordinances these magical incantations, which is nonsense to me. The ordinances that we have, which are not eternal because they change and have changed, and will change, are intended to help Mormons to receive Christ, to understand eternal principles, and to teach us what it means to be true disciples and true agents of The Good. However, obtaining the ordinances, or going through with the symbolic representation of actually receiving Christ, doesn't mean that one has received Christ. The law is a schoolmaster, it isn't the end. Christ is the end. In the end, whether you are a Mormon or Buddhist, if you are filled with the pure love of Christ, it shall be well with you. Receiving Christ is the goal. Receiving His countenance in our image is the goal. God is greater than the Mormon paradigm and we don't have the monopoly on having Christ's countenance in our image or being filled with charity. In the end, that is what is going to matter. Do you have charity. All else, no matter what it is, will fail.

-Finrock

[drtanner]

Both these prophets are speaking to those who are "of the church" In Moroni 7 he is quoting his father who says, "Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church"

So the questions still remains unanswered. For example, In order to be "born of god" do you need ordinances, or authority? These scriptures do not answer what you are saying specifically about people who are not Mormon and how they "receive Christ"

Have you received His image in your countenance? Are you filled with His love? If you have received Christ you don't need me to tell you about it. Open your eyes and look around and see if you can find Christ in the countenance of those who are around you, in and out of the Church. Remember that ALL things fail, except charity. In the end, though, you are free to believe as you wish.

-Finrock

I'm doing my best to read between the lines of what you are trying to say but it is really ambiguous. Just trying to understand what you believe and what you are trying to communicate about "Receiving Christ" If this is contingent on our relationship with him and returning to live with them I can't think of anything we should be more CLEAR on.

To me it is clear:

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

Ordinances are critical but are not valid without the heart, real repentance, no hypocrisy and deception before God, etc. The question you keep avoiding is if you think you can receive ordinances outside of the COJCOLDS

People have received Christ, received His countenance, are filled with His love, without being members of the Church. You apparently believe that when the Book of Mormon says that "whoso is found possessed of [the pure love of Christ] at the last day, it shall be well with him" only applies to Mormons or members of the Church. I don't believe that. I believe that view is sociocentric and elitist in nature and it just doesn't jive with reality. I don't believe that the scripture should be read, as you've implied, that "whoso [being a member of the Mormon Church] is found possessed of [the pure love of Christ] at the last day, it shall be well with him" and that no other people on this planet can receive the countenance of Christ in their image or be filled with His love by praying for it with all of their heart unless they've become members of the Mormon Church. That makes the ordinances these magical incantations, which is nonsense to me. The ordinances that we have, which are not eternal because they change and have changed, and will change, are intended to help Mormons to receive Christ, to understand eternal principles, and to teach us what it means to be true disciples and true agents of The Good. However, obtaining the ordinances, or going through with the symbolic representation of actually receiving Christ, doesn't mean that one has received Christ. The law is a schoolmaster, it isn't the end. Christ is the end. In the end, whether you are a Mormon or Buddhist, if you are filled with the pure love of Christ, it shall be well with you. Receiving Christ is the goal. Receiving His countenance in our image is the goal. God is greater than the Mormon paradigm and we don't have the monopoly on having Christ's countenance in our image or being filled with charity. In the end, that is what is going to matter. Do you have charity. All else, no matter what it is, will fail.

-Finrock

OK, so the answer is NO you don't believe you need the ordinances. That helps. But just for the record I absolutely do no believe the scripture about charity only applies to mormons, nor do I believe Mormons have a monopoly on Christ's countenance. That is why we have the temples, so that those that do have charity and die can still have the ordinances which are necessary. And I pray everyday for charity, I don't believe I have what this scripture is talking about, but It is one of the greatest desires I have. Hope you forgive me if my questions and poignancy comes off as a lack of love. I'm would hope if we were around each other face to face you would feel my of motives, love, and intent. Sometimes it is hard to communicate that on the forum.

[gardener4life]

Well I understand that you guys are trying to help. You guys are wonderful and we're good friends. So please don't feel bad when I say this...

I have to do a minor correction here sorry. You said above ordinances are not eternal because of changes.

Ordinances are an eternal part of an eternal gospel that is based on eternal progression and will always be as such. We have an eternal identity of children of an eternal being that is eternally guiding us as we are eternally grateful to him and will be grateful in the future. We won't just be cut loose and have no guidance after this life too. What would that say about parenting? We'll still have mentorship and mentorship is wonderful! It means we aren't alone. It's true that we'll always have some kind of ordinances, hence the focus on needing to lay hold of whatever Heavenly Father is trying to tell us, let him guide us, let him mentor us. An eternal parent is always guiding their children along...

Ordinances and covenants are eternal in nature, though I understand you were trying to show that each 'step' is different but there are many stairs on a ladder.

[Finrock]

Have you received His image in your countenance? Are you filled with His love? If you have received Christ you don't need me to tell you about it. Open your eyes and look around and see if you can find Christ in the countenance of those who are around you, in and out of the Church. Remember that ALL things fail, except charity. In the end, though, you are free to believe as you wish.

-Finrock

I'm doing my best to read between the lines of what you are trying to say but it is really ambiguous. Just trying to understand what you believe and what you are trying to communicate about "Receiving Christ" If this is contingent on our relationship with him and returning to live with them I can't think of anything we should be more CLEAR on.

To me it is clear:

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

Ordinances are critical but are not valid without the heart, real repentance, no hypocrisy and deception before God, etc. The question you keep avoiding is if you think you can receive ordinances outside of the COJCOLDS

People have received Christ, received His countenance, are filled with His love, without being members of the Church. You apparently believe that when the Book of Mormon says that "whoso is found possessed of [the pure love of Christ] at the last day, it shall be well with him" only applies to Mormons or members of the Church. I don't believe that. I believe that view is sociocentric and elitist in nature and it just doesn't jive with reality. I don't believe that the scripture should be read, as you've implied, that "whoso [being a member of the Mormon Church] is found possessed of [the pure love of Christ] at the last day, it shall be well with him" and that no other people on this planet can receive the countenance of Christ in their image or be filled with His love by praying for it with all of their heart unless they've become members of the Mormon Church. That makes the ordinances these magical incantations, which is nonsense to me. The ordinances that we have, which are not eternal because they change and have changed, and will change, are intended to help Mormons to receive Christ, to understand eternal principles, and to teach us what it means to be true disciples and true agents of The Good. However, obtaining the ordinances, or going through with the symbolic representation of actually receiving Christ, doesn't mean that one has received Christ. The law is a schoolmaster, it isn't the end. Christ is the end. In the end, whether you are a Mormon or Buddhist, if you are filled with the pure love of Christ, it shall be well with you. Receiving Christ is the goal. Receiving His countenance in our image is the goal. God is greater than the Mormon paradigm and we don't have the monopoly on having Christ's countenance in our image or being filled with charity. In the end, that is what is going to matter. Do you have charity. All else, no matter what it is, will fail.

-Finrock

OK, so the answer is NO you don't believe you need the ordinances. That helps. But just for the record I absolutely do no believe the scripture about charity only applies to mormons, nor do I believe Mormons have a monopoly on Christ's countenance. That is why we have the temples, so that those that do have charity and die can still have the ordinances which are necessary. And I pray everyday for charity, I don't believe I have what this scripture is talking about, but It is one of the greatest desires I have. Hope you forgive me if my questions and poignancy comes off as a lack of love. I'm would hope if we were around each other face to face you would feel my of motives, love, and intent. Sometimes it is hard to communicate that on the forum.

I've never stated that you don't need ordinances. I may understand the ordinances differently than you, but there is no doubt that "ordinances" are necessary. But, take for instance the "ordinance" of going to the temple, watching a movie, saying words, and doing a ritual...this "ordinance" doesn't endow you with power. That "ordinance" it just teaches you what you need to know in order to actually be endowed. Or, take a person who goes to the temple all of the time, talks about how wonderful it is, how its such a peaceful place, and when they are there they feel the spirit, etc. Then compare that to the person who is "trying to be like Jesus" in all that they do and say. They are "gentle and loving in deed and in thought". They minister, care for, and give of their substance to those in need, because they actually love God and their fellow man. Which ordinance has more power? To me, there is no doubt. Symbolic representation, versus actual being. Actual being ordinance is greater than symbolic representation ordinance and/or believing that one is holy, pure, good, or great because they go to a special house and perform a special ritual, etc.

Also, I don't have any issues with your questions neither have I internally or in any way questioned your sincerity, intent, or motivations.

-Finrock

[Thinker]

TMBro, are you suggesting that “forever families” are pipe dreams because Jesus will split them up? Or are you suggesting that Jesus never said anything about eternal or forever families? I tend to think that Jesus meant that when you truly follow him in doing God’s will (as opposed to the religious leaders/pharessees’ will), some in your family will object and unfortunately may shun or choose the religion over you. Sounds familiar.
http://familyfirstweddings.com/category/blog/

Moreover, priestcraft (charging for worthiness) is wrong, as is using temples to make money.

I might have missed your post saying that you are an ex-Mormon. Is it true?

No that’s not true. I’m very active: currently have 3 callings. But even if I were, why do you want to know - to label and judge me?

I’ve seen the darker sides of the church - both cultural and policy - like shunning people who don’t think as they, how each of us have records where if you state anything against church leaders, your record becomes flagged. I’ve seen leadership roulette play out - where one gets excommunicated for a minor offense that offended the disciplining church leader and another who comitted far worse sin has to miss a couple sacraments and that’s it.

So, what do you think about what was written, rather than what wasn’t?

[diligently seeking]

.

[Arenera]

.

.. ... ....... ......... ......?

[DesertWonderer2]

TMBro, are you suggesting that “forever families” are pipe dreams because Jesus will split them up? Or are you suggesting that Jesus never said anything about eternal or forever families? I tend to think that Jesus meant that when you truly follow him in doing God’s will (as opposed to the religious leaders/pharessees’ will), some in your family will object and unfortunately may shun or choose the religion over you. Sounds familiar.
http://familyfirstweddings.com/category/blog/

Moreover, priestcraft (charging for worthiness) is wrong, as is using temples to make money.

That was HILARIOUSLY false.

[Thinker]

TMBro, are you suggesting that “forever families” are pipe dreams because Jesus will split them up? Or are you suggesting that Jesus never said anything about eternal or forever families? I tend to think that Jesus meant that when you truly follow him in doing God’s will (as opposed to the religious leaders/pharessees’ will), some in your family will object and unfortunately may shun or choose the religion over you. Sounds familiar.
http://familyfirstweddings.com/category/blog/

Moreover, priestcraft (charging for worthiness) is wrong, as is using temples to make money.

That was HILARIOUSLY false.

Ad hominem attack (you are breaking the #1 and only forum rule).
How you are supposed to disagree is explain WHY you disagree instead of putting it down.

[brianj]

TMBro, are you suggesting that “forever families” are pipe dreams because Jesus will split them up? Or are you suggesting that Jesus never said anything about eternal or forever families? I tend to think that Jesus meant that when you truly follow him in doing God’s will (as opposed to the religious leaders/pharessees’ will), some in your family will object and unfortunately may shun or choose the religion over you. Sounds familiar.
http://familyfirstweddings.com/category/blog/

Moreover, priestcraft (charging for worthiness) is wrong, as is using temples to make money.

That was HILARIOUSLY false.

Ad hominem attack (you are breaking the #1 and only forum rule).
How you are supposed to disagree is explain WHY you disagree instead of putting it down.

Saying something is false, even hilariously false, is not an ad hominem attack. It says nothing about the person who made the argument being responded to.

Argumentum ad hominem attack is an attack on the character, motive, or other attributes of the person making the argument. What DesertWonderer2 provided is an appeal to ridicule, a well known informal fallacy.

[Thinker]

TMBro, are you suggesting that “forever families” are pipe dreams because Jesus will split them up? Or are you suggesting that Jesus never said anything about eternal or forever families? I tend to think that Jesus meant that when you truly follow him in doing God’s will (as opposed to the religious leaders/pharessees’ will), some in your family will object and unfortunately may shun or choose the religion over you. Sounds familiar.
http://familyfirstweddings.com/category/blog/

Moreover, priestcraft (charging for worthiness) is wrong, as is using temples to make money.

That was HILARIOUSLY false.

Ad hominem attack (you are breaking the #1 and only forum rule).
How you are supposed to disagree is explain WHY you disagree instead of putting it down.

Saying something is false, even hilariously false, is not an ad hominem attack. It says nothing about the person who made the argument being responded to.

Argumentum ad hominem attack is an attack on the character, motive, or other attributes of the person making the argument. What DesertWonderer2 provided is an appeal to ridicule, a well known informal fallacy.

You’re right, Brian. I knew it was logical fallacy but now I realize the fallacy was appeal to ridicule. It’s similar to ad hominem attack in that it is insulting and does nothing to put forth a reasonable argument.