Zion ≠ Socialism

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marc
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Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by marc »

Whenever I read a topic, which broaches the subject of Zion, someone inevitably tends to bring up Socialism and that Zion is not Socialism. I have not ever read anyone on this forum declare that Zion is Socialism. But for some reason, some people seem to assign this intention to those who wish to discuss Zion. It makes absolutely no sense for people who do not equate Zion with Socialism to defend the concept of Zion from those who also do not equate Socialism with Zion. It's so bizarre, I can't help but laugh. Perhaps those who inject Socialism into the equation do so not because they understand what Socialism is, but rather, because they do not understand what Zion is. Therefore, it may be helpful for those who understand Socialism to define precisely what it is and let those who understand what Zion is define precisely what it is. We can draw from the scriptures the few instances where a "Zion" people dwelt together and their characteristics and contrast them with a few current Socialist countries and their characteristics. Perhaps then, people will stop stating the obvious and have a better understanding of why they are making such claims to begin with.

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Arenera
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by Arenera »

Do people understand “there was no poor among them”?

Simply, people use what they need (not greed), and share the excess. In reality, it is the most prosperous economy possible.

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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by Tbone »

In a society where every citizen is 100% pure in heart and lives by Celestial law, my guess is you wouldn't need much government regulation.

By the way, iWriteStuff has inspired me to read Approaching Zion.

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gclayjr
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by gclayjr »

Arenera,
Do people understand “there was no poor among them”?

Simply, people use what they need (not greed), and share the excess. In reality, it is the most prosperous economy possible.
You are right. However, so many mis-interpret this to look like Socialism. Maybe just like how Satan's other plans superficially look like the truth, and often lead people carefully down the path to hell, this misunderstanding can do so also.

Having no poor among you, doesn't mean that all have equal stuff, glory of whatever. It means that all have sufficient. I think some people also confuse failed attempts at Consecration targeted at certain times, places and situations such as various 19th century United Order experiments as a definitive view of Consecration and a celestial world. Of course, most of these people have a view of a fallen LDS Church, since Church leaders have clearly rejected this view.

So if you stick to what the scriptuers, and the Lord's annointed say, and don't get caught up in Satan's disseblings, into some sort of holy redistribution scheme, and an equality that is based upon coveting equal stuff, glory etc, you will not go astray or be confused.

Regards,

George Clay

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marc
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by marc »

Tbone wrote: January 9th, 2018, 5:52 pmBy the way, iWriteStuff has inspired me to read Approaching Zion.
It is an excellent book! This should be an interesting topic if it takes off.

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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by David13 »

marc wrote: January 9th, 2018, 5:04 pm Whenever I read a topic, which broaches the subject of Zion, someone inevitably tends to bring up Socialism and that Zion is not Socialism. I have not ever read anyone on this forum declare that Zion is Socialism. But for some reason, some people seem to assign this intention to those who wish to discuss Zion. It makes absolutely no sense for people who do not equate Zion with Socialism to defend the concept of Zion from those who also do not equate Socialism with Zion. It's so bizarre, I can't help but laugh. Perhaps those who inject Socialism into the equation do so not because they understand what Socialism is, but rather, because they do not understand what Zion is. Therefore, it may be helpful for those who understand Socialism to define precisely what it is and let those who understand what Zion is define precisely what it is. We can draw from the scriptures the few instances where a "Zion" people dwelt together and their characteristics and contrast them with a few current Socialist countries and their characteristics. Perhaps then, people will stop stating the obvious and have a better understanding of why they are making such claims to begin with.

It seems simple to me. A lot of people think Jesus was a socialist. They equate the two. And thus their concept of Zion is based on socialism. It's important as a basis to understand that Jesus was not a socialist.
dc

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marc
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by marc »

Well, so far, people have shared some interesting perspectives. I believe it would be more meaningful if people who made certain claims would support them with scripture and/or what general authorities have declared. For example:

"Jesus was not a socialist."

That is not different than saying Zion does not equal Socialism.

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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by David13 »

marc wrote: January 9th, 2018, 6:08 pm Well, so far, people have shared some interesting perspectives. I believe it would be more meaningful if people who made certain claims would support them with scripture and/or what general authorities have declared. For example:

"Jesus was not a socialist."

That is not different than saying Zion does not equal Socialism.
https://fee.org/resources/rendering-unt ... socialist/

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marc
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by marc »

Ok, I'll do some of the work. From that link, I'll start with:
So was Jesus really a socialist? More to the main focus of this essay, did he call for the state to redistribute income to either punish the rich or to help the poor?
As far as I recall, Jesus never addressed the "state" except the time He was brought before Pilate. Therefore, what was the fulcrum of Jesus' teachings to the Jews in the context of this topic?

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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by Silver »

marc wrote: January 9th, 2018, 6:21 pm Ok, I'll do the work. From that link, I'll start with:
So was Jesus really a socialist? More to the main focus of this essay, did he call for the state to redistribute income to either punish the rich or to help the poor?
As far as I recall, Jesus never addressed the "state" except the time He was brought before Pilate. Therefore, what was the fulcrum of Jesus' teachings to the Jews in the context of this topic?
Some other references to the state made by Christ:
Matt 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. (Carrying a centurion's pack for a mile could be imposed upon a citizen of Israel at the time. The centurion representing, of course, the Roman Empire.)
Matt 22:21 Render therefore unto Cæsar the things which are Cæsar’s;

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gclayjr
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by gclayjr »

marc,
Well, so far, people have shared some interesting perspectives. I believe it would be more meaningful if people who made certain claims would support them with scripture and/or what general authorities have declared. For example:

"Jesus was not a socialist."

That is not different than saying Zion does not equal Socialism.
I am a bit confused. From you earlier posts, I thought you couldn't understand what basis people had to equate Zionism with Socialism. Then when people respond agreeing with you, you then fault them for not giving sources as to why Zion is NOT Socialism.

So in reality you ARE one who believes in a great similarly in Socialist wealth redistribution and a Zion world, and those of us who agree with current LDS interpretation have to cite resources for that???

or are you just trying to start a fight?

Well here are quotes from a Conference talk by Marion G Romney

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng
To enter the united order, one consecrated all his possessions to the Church by a “covenant and a deed which [could not] be broken.” That is, he completely divested himself of all his property by conveying it to the Church.

Having done so, the consecrator received from the Church a stewardship by a like conveyance. This stewardship could be more or less than the original consecration, the object being to make “every man equal according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs.” (D&C 51:3.)

This procedure preserved in every man the right of private ownership and management of his property. Indeed, the fundamental principle of the system was the private ownership of property. Each man owned his portion, or inheritance, or stewardship, with an absolute title, which, at his option, he could alienate, keep and operate, or otherwise treat as his own. The Church did not own all of the property, and life under the united order was not, and never will be, a communal life, as the Prophet Joseph himself said.
The Church never was, and under existing commandments never will be, a communal society, under the directions thus far given by the Lord. The United Order was not communal nor communistic. It was completely and intensely individualistic, with a consecration of unneeded surpluses for the support of the Church and the poor.” (J. Reuben Clark, Jr., “The United Order and Law of Consecration As Set Out in the Revelations of the Lord,” from a pamphlet of articles reprinted from the Church Section of the Deseret News, 1942, pp. 26–27.)

Is this a good enough source for you are does the bee in your bonnet go further than this?


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George Clay

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marc
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by marc »

Those are good passages, Silver! The Sermon on the Mount provides valuable information. For example, in Luke's Gospel, we read:
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
So now we're not just talking about statesmen. We're talking about those who would be Jesus' disciples.

Hi, George. No, I'm not trying to start a fight. I am trying to understand why people believe what they do. I believe it is fair to expect people to support their beliefs. It is ok to ask, "why do you believe this" when someone says, "I believe this." If you review my OP, you will see that I did make this distinction.
Perhaps then, people will stop stating the obvious and have a better understanding of why they are making such claims to begin with.
And those are good quotes. Thank you.
Last edited by marc on January 9th, 2018, 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kittycat51
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by kittycat51 »

With my simple understanding mind, Socialism is something usually forced upon a group of people. There is a difference for the government to come in and "take" what I have worked hard for and give it to people who are too lazy to work on their own accord because they can get it through easier means. On the other hand for a Church leader to approach me and say, so and so (who happens to work hard on their own accord) is just not making ends meet. Can you give X amount each month to help them. I hopefully with a willing heart would help because that's the Christlike thing to do. Is this a correct analogy? (or close to?)

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gclayjr
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by gclayjr »

Kittykat51,
With my simple understanding mind, Socialism is something usually forced upon a group of people. There is a difference for the government to come in and "take" what I have worked hard for and give it to people who are too lazy to work on their own accord because they can get it through easier means. On the other hand for a Church leader to approach me and say, so and so (who happens to work hard on their own accord) is just not making ends meet. Can you give X amount each month to help them. I hopefully with a willing heart would help because that's the Christlike thing to do. Is this a correct analogy? (or close to?)
Your example is good. Your example is to sacrifice to help someone who has needs. This is different, from a point of view, often expressed, of a need to give, simply because you have more, and that isn't fair ... or equal.

This is often used as a hammer against the GAs for example, because there ARE many in the church who have less stuff than they do ... so therefor if they are truly servants of the lord, they should give stuff until equality of stuff occurs.

There is a basic difference in the foundation in these two views


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George Clay

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marc
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by marc »

This brings up an interesting point.
Luke 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
Jesus made a very interesting observation. He did not condemn the rich men who cast in of their abundance, but His focus was on the poor widow, whom He declared had offered up more than "they all." It begs the question, why should Jesus even make such a distinction?

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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by sushi_chef »

probably the rich or humans have tendencies to enclose the wealth to themselves excluding others or the poor because of some kind of fear-driven mentality (to protect themselves first in the uncertain world etc), while the persons in zion ideally speaking are more toward love/charity- motivated/driven type having joy in sharing eagerly because of the conversion(holy spirit dwelling inside), such was that case of that poor widow....

" (from comment)
latterdaylamanite
October 21, 2012 at 9:52 am #

Zion–one heart, one mind. No divisions. The rich, by virtue of seeking and building wealth unto themselves, divide themselves from others. The poor, the widows and fatherless, receiving no succor fall behind. He who labors in Zion labors FOR Zion that there be NO poor, thus all being in EQUAL IN ALL things. We have wonderful examples of this in the Book of Mormon among the TRULY converted disciples of Jesus Christ who freely imparted of their substance–any substance.
" http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/how-la ... reate-zion :arrow:

Michelle
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by Michelle »

I see the "widow's mite" story elevating the widow the same way I see a more agricultural life (such as Adam earning his bread by the sweat of his brow tilling the earth) as elevating. In both instances the giver/worker is putting their trust in God to provide for their temporal needs.

This doesn't mean that both of them don't have to give their all and work hard, it means that the "widow" or any who share until it hurts, trust that God will provide for their needs ad they share and provide for others. It means that the man who grows his own food trusts the Lord will provide the rain and sunshine. The same can be said for any who live a life of consecration. They are trusting both their temporal and spiritual well being to God's care.

I think this is why it is so amazing the Christ would often forgive a person first and heal them physically second. It demonstrated that the spiritual gift was a great gift, but to comfort the mortal being that the spiritual gift was real, he would provide a physical blessing as well.

To give a real life example, we felt like our kids were getting a little selfish at Christmas, so we decided to do a Secret Santa one year. We intentionally decided to do a family we didn't know and asked a former stake leader to find us a family in their area. They came back with 2 families. We felt like we should do both, even though we had only planned on doing one and it would stretch our budget a bit more. The two families together overlapped the ages of 4 of our children so kids were really able to relate to the idea of the kids opening the presents they chose and imaging how happy they would be.
Our kids had a great time choosing presents, wrapping them, and delivering them secretly.

Fast forward a week and our furnace went out. We had a rough year that year with some high ticket medical bills, expecting a new baby, getting a used car large enough to fit our bigger family, and some other things so we had used up our savings and it was not in our budget at that moment to put $1000 into a fix for our furnace, (I literally had $1 in my wallet and nothing else, but since we had food storage we hadn't expected to need to spend any more money before payday.) We also had a baby due the same week and we have homebirths, so we had to get it fixed quick. Long story short, we were blessed to take care of it. The reason I bring this up is that I started to wonder if we had done wrong in doing the Secret Santa when money was tight, but over and over again the Lord assured me we had done his will.

I learned a valuable lesson about the widow's mite that week and it has stuck with me. Listen to the Spirit, trust in the Lord and he will provide. This doesn't mean I don't believe in saving money, we have been directed by the Spirit to do that as well very often, but sometimes it is valuable to learn to trust in the moment the Lord will provide not in the money.

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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by h_p »

All economies are attempts to mitigate scarcity of resources. Socialism attempts to do this by centralizing control of production to a small group of people who decides what is needed and who gets it. Capitalism decentralizes it to individuals who decide how much he or she needs.

What kind of economy would a Zion society have? I know it'd be neither of the above, because forcing others to produce is not Christlike, and neither is producing only for yourself with no regard for others. Couple that with the fact that a Zion people would not be motivated by accumulating as much wealth as possible--wouldn't they really only be interested in producing for their own needs? How does a Zion individual decide how much to produce to provide a surplus to be given to others? Do they see a need an produce enough to share? How is the need communicated?

I see a mature Zion society only really producing enough to cover the group's needs: food, shelter, clothing, and so on. Working to create extravagance and wealth seems pretty Telestial to me, so I don't see that happening. And I imagine priesthood power would be pretty abundant, so healthcare might really be a matter of requesting a blessing or something. Government administration and military would probably be almost non-existent. This makes me question how much work is actually required to sustain life at a comfortable but modest level by a group of honest, healthy people. I think I have more questions than answers here, but this is something that I've thought about off and on for a while now. Not really sure how the details will work in practice.

I'm curious what others think about the questions I've raised. Am I overcomplicating it here?

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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by gardener4life »

There has already been discussion on this in the past. We've talked about some of these things before but I still admire you all for wondering about these things.

I would point out a few things.

Zion will be a refuge from the storms of life, natural disasters, poverty, etc. (Compare to Socialism, Communism, and a traditional Western civilization economy is that there is no refuge from the storms still for a lot of reasons but basically because any system that is not of God will help those in the great and spacious building but not the needy. In one form or another all governments of man will leave people out or be unable to reach everyone. There will be those that won't want to share and that are taking from others.)

D&C 101:Doctrine and Covenants 101: 101 They shall build, and another shall not inherit it; they shall plant vineyards, and they shall eat the fruit thereof. Even so. Amen. (slavery is done away with in a Zion system. By that I don't just mean traditional slavery but also economic slavery and all forms of inequality. There won't be employers lording it over middle and poor class. All will be a form of 'middle' class. No rich or poor among them. We'll work for our families but not for those that have no love together in an enmity me vs you system. Me Versus you in Zion and the Millenium won't happen because of no enmity.

D&C 101:75 There is even now already in store sufficient, yea, even an abundance, to redeem Zion, and establish her waste places, no more to be thrown down, were the churches, who call themselves after my name, willing to hearken to my voice. (Why is this important. Abundance shows there won't be lacking for what we need. But to get there also we need to let the Lord teach us how to live like him. There will be forms of welfare like the Bishop's storehouse, serving and helping the poor so that they won't be poor anymore. People will be going out and doing service for fun everyday rather than a traditional job. They will be like the people of Jershon in the Book of Mormon. Can you imagine how wonderful and exciting it would be? We'd get to go hang out like family reunions daily but doing service like maybe barn or house raising but it will be like we'll feel free and working so united that it will be peaceful and happy. We'll get to be around missionaries and missionary work all the time but without having to bash or talk religion. People will be interested in helping each other and ENMITY will cease. (Enmity will cease at the start of the Millenium after Satan is bound; references also in the scriptures for this.)

D&C 105:5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself. (Zion will live a form of Celestial kingdom type of laws. And we know the Celestial Kingdom is a place of families and focusing on families and peaceful free people. What's also interesting about this is that the D&C also tells us that the laws of the land now and in many countries help prepare us for this type of law. So we still have meaning in keeping the laws of the land as they are now, supporting local and country governments without tearing them down. This is also why we shouldn't allow corruption, or drug use to be acceptable. How can we approach the Celestial kingdom and it's types of systems if we're still having trouble with Telestial type of laws.)

D&C 119: This section has several verses that I should explain that help to understand Zion. You want to be careful in your wording about how you describe this. This is where people get confused. People will freely donate their excess money and resources. But it won't be a type of enforced regime type of 'redistribution' or 're-circulation'. Using the words redistribution and similar words don't work because those are words that socialist regimes use. Socialism and communism also are heavily taxed but not in the same type of thinking like capitalism. In a Zion system you would be able to have property ownership and control over your own property, but in socialism and communism you are told what and how little property you can have. And if you deviate from how property management is accepted in socialism and communism you also get in trouble with punishments. This is like comparing tithing which is opposite of and diferent from legal plundering in a way. And of course it would be similar to that because tithing is a practice to get ready for a family based Zion system.

And one of the big differences between Zion and socialism, communism, and even capitalism that VERY FEW people comprehend is that in a Zion system you are in an INHERITANCE system where you own the land. You actually have it for an inheritance! This is exciting. It's not the government owning the land and letting you think you have a piece of it, it's an inheritance land for your family that you will have stewardship over. I would point out also this shows why selling your land and not giving it to your posterity can be a mistake. In a Zion inheritance system its important to keep your family land and not sell or dispose of it on risky schemes. (Also this is in the D&C. And ancient Israel had a land inheritance system too. So did other communities approaching forms of Zion societies. (This is also why moving to Missouri early might not be a good idea because it says in the D&C also that when the transition to a millenial Zion occurs the Lord's servant will assign inheritances for Zion. And if that's the case it might not be looked upon with favor if someone was trying to cheat and beat the system. But that also depends on how it's done. This is so interesting. Think of it. NO mortgage. No rents. You actually WILL be free, not just dream of it. It's like you all start with the American dream of the house on the hill and help each other to get it instead of competing with one another. In capitalism everyone ends up competing with each other so badly that nobody gets the dream because so much time is spent on conflicts of resources, conflicts of businesses, etc.)

In a Zion society everyone helps out. You wouldn't have a few people at the top living off the herd of other people (that's their type of thinking and why I worded it that way. People with health problems and that can't work would do what they could but still be encouraged to not have predatory arrangements off others.) King Benjamin and even Mosiah worked for a living. They wanted to be a good example and acted more like fathers than rulers.

Also let me point out all of this is scriptural. You find interesting things in the scriptures.

Mosiah 29:38
38 Therefore they relinquished their desires for a king, and became exceedingly anxious that every man should have an equal chance throughout all the land; yea, and every man expressed a willingness to answer for his own sins.

Alma 1:26 ...and the priest, not esteeming himself above his hearers, for the preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal, and they did all labor, every man according to his strength.

There are other scriptures about all things in common. But basically think of it like above. Equality, sharing and helping through service, but people were happy. It wasn't like soldiers going around to pick up people's stuff, neither like war rationing.

Where people get confused now is they see people with their hand out saying let me be equal with you. Go to work, work 60 hours a week while I'm at home and then give me your food and your house. This isn't equality either. We see a welfare state being sold as equality by liberals and leftists and that's not right either. Our society is twisting and lying about truth by using political correctness, which ends up feeding the problem. Equality; treating each other like brother and sisters, we give and don't let people go hungry but we have our own posessions and our own ability and rights to build what we want. We can build and have more through righteousness, and giving to a righteous posterity in eternal progression.

It must be love based for this to work. It doesn't work without love. And you can see why the Savior would have to intervene to set this up because it doesn't work if people are wicked and selfish.
Last edited by gardener4life on January 10th, 2018, 4:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

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marc
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by marc »

gardener4life, I don't think I could have said it any better. The only thing I could add would be to supply 4 Nephi 1 and Acts 4, which describe the people who dwelt together in righteousness for a period of time, whose hearts were knit together with love. Oh, and top it off with Moses 7:18, which fundamentally describes everything you just discussed. Thank you.

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gradles21
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by gradles21 »

Socialism/communism is nothing more than the philosophies of man mingled with scripture.

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gclayjr
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by gclayjr »

gradies21,
Socialism/communism is nothing more than the philosophies of man mingled with scripture.
bien dicho

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George Clay

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Arenera
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by Arenera »

There are several problems with the world's methods of economy.

First, the surplus or wealth is consolidated to a few and not shared. While capitalism incentivizes production, the surplus is not distributed. Today we have greedy capitalism which isn't any better than the others.

Righteousness and love are not principles that are being followed. Zion is the pure in heart, the world tries to take advantage so a few can have more than they need.

Secret combinations are rampant, even in the capitalist companies.

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ajax
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by ajax »

Random thoughts:

In Great Basin Kingdom, Leonard Arrington relates the following:
...one early Mormon recalled:
"In those days there was a tendency of feeling that each should share alike in everything, so much so that it was impossible for any man to do business in the mercantile line. A good brother who was needy would think it was selfish if he could not go to a store and get what he wanted without paying the money for it.
...Let a brother commence the mercantile business, and the first thing he knew his whole capital stock was credited out to the brethren. He could not refuse to credit a brother. O, no! If he did it was said at once that he was selfish and was no friend to the poor."
Question: who is greedy in the above example? The owner of the textile business? Or the brethren going in with an expectation of free stuff?

Arrington also states that after initial consecrations, "there was to be freedom of enterprise in production and in the management of properties held as stewardships. There was no provision for the minute and intimate regulation of economic activity which prevailed in some contemporary communitarian societies."

Stewardships and the management of such held sounds like a private property order to me couched in different language. It is not for me to manage the stewardship of another unless given specific permission to do so by the steward.

-Will there be money in Zion?

-Will there be pencils in Zion? If so, why? How would the production of such a simple tool come about? Since no one person can make a pencil. It's too complex and requires a variety of processes distant from each other. See I, Pencil from Leonard Read. It comes about through a vast lattice work of social cooperation of individuals who will never meet each other.

We like to bemoan competition, however, arguably the greatest proponent of what we call "capitalism", Ludwig von Mises, referred to free enterprise as "social cooperation" under the division of labor.

And as a consumer, I've never felt oppressed because there are 10 auto mechanics in my neighborhood "competing" for my business. I'd be much more concerned if there were just one.

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ajax
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Re: Zion ≠ Socialism

Post by ajax »

h_p wrote: January 9th, 2018, 11:36 pm All economies are attempts to mitigate scarcity of resources. Socialism attempts to do this by centralizing control of production to a small group of people who decides what is needed and who gets it. Capitalism decentralizes it to individuals who decide how much he or she needs.

What kind of economy would a Zion society have? I know it'd be neither of the above, because forcing others to produce is not Christlike, and neither is producing only for yourself with no regard for others.
A "capitalist" really can't be wealthy unless he takes others interests in account. He must be able to provide goods and services others want. I've never know a rich capitalist who only provided for himself. Now this doesn't mean he is virtuous or righteous, only that in the market, he is providing goods and services that others want or need.

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