Partners Forever

[FreeDad]

Imagine a couple who married and lived decent lives together. They loved each other very much. They had numerous contacts with members of the church but never joined. In the end, they both received a terrestrial glory. They never married in the temple so their union ended at death. But, what if they don't care about being married? Aren't they still together forever? What if they don't care about having spirit children? Again, aren't they together forever?
I like to consider myself literate in the gospel but have been lost with this. Although non-temple married couples will not inherit powers of godhood, what if they don't care as long as they're together forever?

[Robin Hood]

I have often wondered about this.
In fact, on a slightly different but related point, I once knew a man who refused to join the church because he couldn't bare the thought of spending eternity with his wife. He said he wanted to be happy in heaven!

[Rose Garden]

I would say there are a great deal of people in the church who can't stand their spouses for even a day and yet think they have something over those who aren't sealed in the temple. If the couple was unpersuaded by the LDS people they were around, perhaps it's because those people didn't make eternal marriage look very good. Would you rather dwell in peace unmarried or dwell for eternity with someone who constantly makes you feel bad? I think that the parameters for salvation aren't exactly what we tend to think. The Lord is not going to punish people who did their best in this life and he's not going to bless those who took the vows and then trampled all over them the rest of their lives.

[janderich]

I personally believe that a man and a woman may of course see and converse with one another in the next life if they so choose. However, they will not enter into the highest order of the priesthood and receive all the blessings pertaining to eternal increase.

[h_p]

I would imagine people can associate with whom they will in the Terrestrial Kingdom. I think it will be a very pleasant place to be, and everyone there is going to be quite satisfied with where they're at. Just my opinion...

[Silver]

Even the Terrestrial Kingdom is a kingdom of glory. Even though murderers and rapists will go there (after paying the uttermost farthing), it will be a kingdom of glory. As h_p says above it will be pleasant.

As for the OP of this thread, I imagine that everyone, including the couple in the example, will gain a different understanding of the eternities when they pass into the spirit world. Their perspective on eternal marriage and eternal increase may change. Of course, it may not and they may decide not to accept any temple work done on their behalf.

There is something important, as Malachi taught, about the whole posterity of Adam being sealed together from beginning to end. I hope time in the spirit world during the Millennium will be when most earnestly desire to have that work done, if they haven't already.

[captainfearnot]

Joseph Fielding Smith taught the following regarding the lower kingdoms:

In both of these kingdoms [i.e., the terrestrial and telestial] there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase. Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the “continuation of the seeds forever.” They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain “separately and singly” forever. Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be – neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection.

—Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 287-288

I remember being taught that the above passage meant that bodies destined for the lower kingdoms would be resurrected without any physical attributes associated with gender, including genitalia—thus precluding any possibility of a sexual relationship with anyone.

But outside of that I don't see any reason why a husband and wife couldn't continue their relationship in one of the lower kingdoms.

If what JFS is saying is true, and there is no gender in the lower kingdoms, then there is no reason why same-sex relationships here in mortality could not also continue in the next life.

[oneClimbs]

If what JFS is saying is true, and there is no gender in the lower kingdoms, then there is no reason why same-sex relationships here in mortality could not also continue in the next life.

I think that is technically correct but I think it would be an extremely short-sighted view for one to take. Here on earth, we value relationships as the ultimate expressions of our love, and when that is coupled with creating life we get a small taste of what eternity is all about. If eternity consists of the creation of life and worlds without end to continue bringing glory to God, I'm not sure why anyone would desire to settle for a lower kingdom and miss out on an eternity of creation, knowledge, and love.

I only dated one other girl before my wife and that was a long distance relationship when I was around 18 that only lasted a few months. After my mission, I think I went on two dates and about 3 years later married my wife (long story). As a teen, I didn't care about getting married, I thought the ultimate life was living alone up in some mountains somewhere. My natural state is very introverted, I could be completely alone and feel fine about it. After serving a mission and seeking to understand the doctrine, I saw the value in what God had to offer. I had to let go of my selfish desires and inclinations and what I thought would bring me happiness.

We've been married 14 years and have four kids. I cannot describe how much I love my wife and kids and I cannot bear the thought of living without them. My disposition was changed through understanding the doctrine, exercising faith, and experiencing the fruits of the path God has ordained. I get it now.

While I "could" revert to an introverted lifestyle, I don't want to because of what I now understand. When we understand doctrine, it may not change our dispositions, but it can empower our ability to choose. I believe that we can fully change our dispositions once a sufficient understanding is obtained.

[AI2.0]

Imagine a couple who married and lived decent lives together. They loved each other very much. They had numerous contacts with members of the church but never joined. In the end, they both received a terrestrial glory. They never married in the temple so their union ended at death. But, what if they don't care about being married? Aren't they still together forever? What if they don't care about having spirit children? Again, aren't they together forever?
I like to consider myself literate in the gospel but have been lost with this. Although non-temple married couples will not inherit powers of godhood, what if they don't care as long as they're together forever?

Heavenly Father wants us to be happy and he won't force godhood and posterity on us if that is not what we want. But I also don't think he wants to punish us, so I see no reason why people in the lower kingdoms would not be with their loved ones (at least those who still want to be with them or have not chosen to obtain a higher glory), but they won't be sealed and they won't have spirit children. My own speculation is that the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms are for those of Heavenly Father's children who don't want what he wants for them and they choose a lesser glory because that is what will make them happy in Eternity. Joseph Smith said that those Kingdoms were incredible, so there's no reason to think that this is not a happy existence for the many who don't want exaltation in the Celestial kingdom and what this means as far as eternal progression goes.

I think that those who accept the gospel, baptism and the temple ordinances are probably those who want what God has to offer them. I suspect those who reject these things do so because it is not something they want. Their spirits desire something else and Heavenly Father has made sure that we all we receive the glory which we cleave to.

[AI2.0]

Joseph Fielding Smith taught the following regarding the lower kingdoms:

In both of these kingdoms [i.e., the terrestrial and telestial] there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase. Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the “continuation of the seeds forever.” They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain “separately and singly” forever. Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be – neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection.

—Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 287-288

I remember being taught that the above passage meant that bodies destined for the lower kingdoms would be resurrected without any physical attributes associated with gender, including genitalia—thus precluding any possibility of a sexual relationship with anyone.

But outside of that I don't see any reason why a husband and wife couldn't continue their relationship in one of the lower kingdoms.

If what JFS is saying is true, and there is no gender in the lower kingdoms, then there is no reason why same-sex relationships here in mortality could not also continue in the next life.

The only problem with interpreting JFS's comments that they'll be only 'immortal beings' and not 'man or woman' , as meaning that there will be no gender in the lower kingdoms is that it ignores what the Family Proclamation teaches--that Gender is eternal--it says 'Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal and eternal identity and purpose'. If Gender is eternal, then it will be a characteristic of a resurrected body. I believe that we will all be male and female, in the eternities, just as we were in the pre-mortal existence. What we may not have in some bodies is the ability or inclination to procreate. That is what I think will be missing, not the characteristics of gender. Maybe JFS was thinking in terms of the sexual function on the body, but not that we'd be genderless. Either way, I believe the statement in the Family Proclamation makes it clear that gender will still exist in eternity. I don't think there's any reason to believe that relationships won't be able to continue.

[gardener4life]

You are forgetting the whole point of the Spirit of Elijah and the restoration of ordinances for family blessings has huge meaning and impact beyond just getting a stamp of approval of where we want to be.

You are saying hypothetically maybe a couple deeply love one another and decide to not be together or reject the ordinances. They can't. Eventually you would progress enough to see by rejecting ordinances you are also rejecting being with everyone else that has those ordinances because they would all be connected and welded together with those family ordinances and you would not. And you said they loved one another. They would want it and accept it eventually if they really did love one another. You've also said why would they accept ordinances if they are already together forever.

But that's not possible to do. If you are together forever you have to accept the saving ordinances of the Savior, and accept the savior. You can't play with that and get away with it. It's sacred and dangerous to try to reason that I don't need those ordinances I'll already be with my family anyway.

And would you want to be alone in an empty barren place of nothing in eternity or in a kingdom of Heavenly Father. To be inside you would have to accept those ordinances. Also even if you go to the Terrestrial kingdom you must have those ordinances. You notice we're giving everyone those ordinances not just who we think is faithful. They all need it as part of the process. Whether or not they deserve it or are worthy of it doesn't even come up in the temple, or in the family history centers. And how would we know that anyway. Our job isn't to discriminate or try to weed people out but accept everyone with love.

In order to be saved, you need to create a place where people 'feel saved' in the eternities and can be happy. That means a family there and family based living. If you are alone there isn't any happiness. And in order to be with family you have to have welded links between them of many relationship types like father to son mother to daughter, and so on. It's more than just a spouse welding link. There are links grandparents to grandchildren. Uncles and aunts to nephews and nices, and so on. So can you really reject them because you don't want to be with your spouse? Unfortunately you can't reject all those other relationships. But if you don't want to be married the Lord won't make you be married.

How would you feel saved if you were put in a place with no love? And endless loneliness? Each of us will be put in a place of love and light. But to do so, we have to belong there as family. 'In my Father's house are many mansions'. Why are there many mansions? Because there will be a lot of family and people we know there.

And let's not forget the ordinances are also welding links between us and our families all the way right up to Heavenly Father and Jesus. Jesus even says in the D&C to those that endure he will make his sons /daughters.

Before the day of his coming, he will send the Spirit of Elijah...except if family history not done...the whole Earth would be wasted at his coming is a line you have heard many times. That's talking about family history and temple work of many kinds, family sealings are more than just the spouse but also the children to the parents, and those parents to their parents, and all the way back all the way back to Adam and Eve.

D&C 138:46 And Malachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord—were also there.

JS-H: And again, he quoted the fifth verse thus: Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. (The Priesthood has its entire meaning around the family and welding and keeping a family together on the path to return to God.) By the way this is quoted ALL over the place! D&C 2:beginning of the section. Also Section 128. Also the Old Testament quotes it. 3 Nephi 25 and Malachi 4 also quote it. It's that important. How many scriptures are quoted in all the books of scripture? Not many.
But the really important stuff is.

Also the Jewish people also know that Elijah is supposed to come back as part of the scenes before the Messiah comes back and they don't even know half the stuff we were given to know. They are still trying to figure out who the Messiah is though many of them are finally getting it now.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... h?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1972/01/the- ... h?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/12/elij ... t?lang=eng

Also you've said what if they don't care about having spirit children?

I think you are underestimating what you'd miss. Part of why I think this is people get clouded by how hard mortal life is. But after this life it won't be that hard to take care of families. Much of the strife in this world and burden of taking care of the family isn't caused by taking care of the family but paying for rents, mortgages, monthly payments, utilities, living in captivity, having to work for others instead of ourselves...trying to resist evil, trying to change our natures continually to get back to God. Don't let Satan trick you out of wanting blessings. That's what he does. One of the simple ways is tricking LDS people to be too tired to enjoy and appreciate the Sacrament and going to church by wearing them out during the week.

Also if you look up and read Elijah the prophet's story, he was amazing! There are so many beautiful things about that story.

Do you want to risk missing out on a few things because you've failed to understand that most the bad stuff in this life isn't from the family but is from captivity systems in the mortal probationary state?

Also I don't think people should talk about becoming exalted in some terms openly in public. That can scare people who don't understand it. And it's sacred to talk about it in certain terms. You have to be careful about that. Thanks.

[oneClimbs]

I think we should openly teach the doctrine of exaltation because I think it is the most poweful message of the restoration and boldly illustrates the true power and gift of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

But only so long as we communicate it in an aweful manner less any cartoonish language like “become a god and get your own planet.”

The power of the atonement is such that a mortal like you or I can become one with the Father. Think about that. If we are one with the Father, he created worlds without number, his creations never end, and he already has a pattern of doing all his work through his children (prophets, apostles, even babes), why would that change in the next life. Isn’t that what we are being perfected FOR in the first place?

We beat up on ourselves and love to continually place ourselves below God but that isn’t his will, that is Satan’s. God wants us to be perfect even as he is and to be one with him. Why can’t we have faith in what he desires and comprehend the implications with a humble maturity.

[gardener4life]

I think we should openly teach the doctrine of exaltation because I think it is the most poweful message of the restoration and boldly illustrates the true power and gift of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

But only so long as we communicate it in an aweful manner less any cartoonish language like “become a god and get your own planet.”

The power of the atonement is such that a mortal like you or I can become one with the Father. Think about that. If we are one with the Father, he created worlds without number, his creations never end, and he already has a pattern of doing all his work through his children (prophets, apostles, even babes), why would that change in the next life. Isn’t that what we are being perfected FOR in the first place?

We beat up on ourselves and love to continually place ourselves below God but that isn’t his will, that is Satan’s. God wants us to be perfect even as he is and to be one with him. Why can’t we have faith in what he desires and comprehend the implications with a humble maturity.

Of course you should teach exaltation. It's all over the scriptures. Nobody is saying dont' teach it. What I'm saying is tread lightly, its sacred.

But there's a right and a wrong way to teach it. It sounds fine if you are talking about exaltation and eternal life terms. But if you go off on Kolob and start using terms that make people think Mormons are nuts then it does harm.

[brianj]

I look at it similarly to how I view the gift of the Holy Ghost. You don't need to receive that gift by the laying on of hands to experience the influence of the Holy Ghost, but without that ordinance (and worthiness) you will not have the Holy Ghost as your constant companion.

Without a sealing to a spouse (and worthiness) I expect you will be able to occasionally spend time together but that's all. You won't be constant companions, you won't be a real couple, you won't be able to experience physical intimacy or have spirit children.

[gkearney]

Let me start with a couple of assumptions:

1. Agency is eternal and we have agency in the next life just as we do here.
2. Eternal progression is a true principle for all God’s children regardless of the kingdom.

With these two assumptions in place it would seem to me to be perfectly possible for people to choose to associate together and to even have physical relationships with one another. Eternal increase is likely reserved to the exalted but not that of physical companionship. Otherwise we violate the first assumption. Not everyone will likely even want eternal increase just as some do not want children now.

Now you might well argue that such persons might, upon learning further of the plan develop a desire for increase. This is where the second assumption comes in. I believe that people progress eternally and that it is possible to move between kingdoms, agency would also mean that people can make wrong choices and move downwards as well. Eternity is a long time and I think the general couse is ever upward. If we were stuck in on kingdom forever than there would be no eternal progression and we would, in effect, be damned which is contrary to the universalist nature of the gospel.

With all of that I have to come down on the side of people being free to associate in the next life but with increase reserved for those who progress, in this life or the next to exaltation.

[Robin Hood]

Am I alone in thinking godhood sounds like a lot of hard work and worry?

[investigator]

In both of these kingdoms [i.e., the terrestrial and telestial] there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase. Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the “continuation of the seeds forever.” They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain “separately and singly” forever. Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be – neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection.

—Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 287-288

[quote]Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. The Family a Proclamation to the World[/quote]

Well then, we have two sets of prophets, seers, and revelators who don't agree on the eternal nature of gender. I wonder which set cannot and will not lead us astray?

[JohnnyL]

I have little knowledge about what eternity will be like for anybody. It's hard enough getting the spirit world. I do imagine that we'll be so different in some ways.

But Dante had some interesting explanations about happiness and lower kingdoms, which might be a good start.

[gkearney]

Well then, we have two sets of prophets, seers, and revelators who don't agree on the eternal nature of gender. I wonder which set cannot and will not lead us astray?

The answer to this seems clear to me. The proclamation, signed as it was by the first presidentcy and all the members of the twelve and published by the church takes president over a book by a single author not published by the church no matter who that author might be.

[investigator]

Well then, we have two sets of prophets, seers, and revelators who don't agree on the eternal nature of gender. I wonder which set cannot and will not lead us astray?

The answer to this seems clear to me. The proclamation, signed as it was by the first presidentcy and all the members of the twelve and published by the church takes president over a book by a single author not published by the church no matter who that author might be.

OK. I got it. Prophets, seers, and revelators from the past can lead us astray with false teachings; however, those of the present cannot.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr. was the tenth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) from 1970 until his death. He was the son of Joseph F. Smith, who was the sixth president of the LDS Church. His grandfather was Hyrum Smith, brother of LDS Church founder Joseph Smith, Jr., who was Joseph Fielding's great-uncle.

[shadow]

Imagine a couple who married and lived decent lives together. They loved each other very much. They had numerous contacts with members of the church but never joined. In the end, they both received a terrestrial glory. They never married in the temple so their union ended at death. But, what if they don't care about being married? Aren't they still together forever? What if they don't care about having spirit children? Again, aren't they together forever?
I like to consider myself literate in the gospel but have been lost with this. Although non-temple married couples will not inherit powers of godhood, what if they don't care as long as they're together forever?

I like to think that after death they would probably see things more clearly, accept the gospel and have their temple work done for them including being sealed. All blessings offered would then be theirs.

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. -Joseph Smith

Those who haven't accepted the Gospel in mortality simply enter the spirit world on a lower ladder rung. As section 138 teaches, the righteous there will teach the gospel to those who haven't accepted it yet, even to those who have previously rejected it. Thus the work continues until the Great Jehovah shall say "The work is done".

[gkearney]

Well then, we have two sets of prophets, seers, and revelators who don't agree on the eternal nature of gender. I wonder which set cannot and will not lead us astray?

The answer to this seems clear to me. The proclamation, signed as it was by the first presidentcy and all the members of the twelve and published by the church takes president over a book by a single author not published by the church no matter who that author might be.

OK. I got it. Prophets, seers, and revelators from the past can lead us astray with false teachings; however, those of the present cannot.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr. was the tenth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) from 1970 until his death. He was the son of Joseph F. Smith, who was the sixth president of the LDS Church. His grandfather was Hyrum Smith, brother of LDS Church founder Joseph Smith, Jr., who was Joseph Fielding's great-uncle.

The president of the church is not a dictator nor is he infalible. The combined voices and unanimous voices of the 12 and the first presidency as published by the church itself will, in my mind, always carry more weight that the single voice of even the president of the church alone particularly when that voice is found in a book not even published by the church. Doctrines of Salvation was published by Bookcraft, not the church. Added to this is the fact that as Latter Day Saint we believe in continuing revelation and so yes the current leadership has every right and in fact a duty to expound upon and provide more light on such matters. Joseph Fielding Smith's petagree really has no bearing on this. A privately published book vs. the combined voices and unanimous voices of the 12 and the first presidency published by the church. I will side with the latter.

[oneClimbs]

Am I alone in thinking godhood sounds like a lot of hard work and worry?

To a small child adulthood sounds like a lot of hard work and worry. I wouldn't trade all of the knowledge I have obtained for the ignorance of childhood. Understanding that there is infinite potential and that line upon line I can one day understand all mysteries is a wonderful thing. We cannot appreciate light without the darkness, otherwise we would be in a state of gray, unfeeling, unknowing, and ultimately what kind of life would that be?

[Matchmaker]

I'm curious about something......

If telestial beings on this telestial planet can have sexual relations with their partners without having children, why can't those beings who inherit telestial kingdoms in the future after the judgement have the capacity to do the same thing? The capacity to choose who you want to love and the capacity to obey or to sin is never taken from anyone.

I'm just asking a curious question here. I am not stating my opinion or questioning authority.

[Vgbnd]

I see it this way: sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage are wrong. The church authorizes marriages which continue in the celestial kingdom and marriages that exist until death.

Will telestial beings have different genders? I believe so. But there doesn't exist a mechanism or ordinance that will authorize that activity in the telestial kingdom. Telestial beings will resurrect with no valid marriage and the inability to receive a celestial marriage. Temple covenants spell out the terms of the law of chastity.

There is no "telestial" marriage to create telestial family units. Our bodies will look like they do now, complete with such characteristics. But such relations will only be authorized and made possible by ordinances that pertain to the celestial kingdom. So would such activity be physically possible? Maybe--but I don't know--but regardless of theoretical biological possibility, it does seem like there is no mechanism that would allow it to occur within the bounds of what we know to be the law of chastity.