Where have all the patrons gone?

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Zowieink
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Location: Mesa, AZ

Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Zowieink »

I hope for a happy and prosperous new year! I wonder how long the Lord will continue to support all of us if we are neglecting in performing the work for those in the spirit world. I have been looking at the statistics for the Mesa Temple, and they are pretty bleak. Over the last 8 years, there has been a dramatic decrease in the endowments and initiatory ordinances. If you combine the Gila Valley Temple, Tucson Temple, Gilbert Temple, and Phoenix Temple, the combined total of endowments (for the dead) has dropped to the point that the combined total is less than 2/3 of the Mesa Temple prior to the new temples being built.

I find it ironic that many claim to follow Jesus Christ and have testimonies, but fail to understand the important nature of becoming Saviors on Mount Zion.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why this is happening, when the temples should be overflowing with patrons giving thanksgiving for the increase in prosperity. Perhaps we are too much like the Nephites, which means the Lord is gonna smack us really bad to bring us back to what's really important. If He does, our lifestyles, prosperity, jobs, etc. etc. etc. will change dramatically. I really don't want to live through another 2009/2010 or worse!!!

gardener4life
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by gardener4life »

I'm not sure about this. This is interesting to think about but serious too.

Some of these people are doing indexing though right? At least for me this is the case. I was under the understanding that anything like indexing, doing family history centers, is also doing temple work? Is that your opinion as well? Could some of the people that used to be inside the temple be doing this?

And do you think this is related to some leaders asking people to submit as many names as they are using in the temple or not related?

drtanner
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by drtanner »

Zowieink wrote: January 3rd, 2018, 3:56 pm I hope for a happy and prosperous new year! I wonder how long the Lord will continue to support all of us if we are neglecting in performing the work for those in the spirit world. I have been looking at the statistics for the Mesa Temple, and they are pretty bleak. Over the last 8 years, there has been a dramatic decrease in the endowments and initiatory ordinances. If you combine the Gila Valley Temple, Tucson Temple, Gilbert Temple, and Phoenix Temple, the combined total of endowments (for the dead) has dropped to the point that the combined total is less than 2/3 of the Mesa Temple prior to the new temples being built.

I find it ironic that many claim to follow Jesus Christ and have testimonies, but fail to understand the important nature of becoming Saviors on Mount Zion.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why this is happening, when the temples should be overflowing with patrons giving thanksgiving for the increase in prosperity. Perhaps we are too much like the Nephites, which means the Lord is gonna smack us really bad to bring us back to what's really important. If He does, our lifestyles, prosperity, jobs, etc. etc. etc. will change dramatically. I really don't want to live through another 2009/2010 or worse!!!

What are your sources? Not sure you have accurate information.

Michelle
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Michelle »

Zowieink wrote: January 3rd, 2018, 3:56 pm I hope for a happy and prosperous new year! I wonder how long the Lord will continue to support all of us if we are neglecting in performing the work for those in the spirit world. I have been looking at the statistics for the Mesa Temple, and they are pretty bleak. Over the last 8 years, there has been a dramatic decrease in the endowments and initiatory ordinances. If you combine the Gila Valley Temple, Tucson Temple, Gilbert Temple, and Phoenix Temple, the combined total of endowments (for the dead) has dropped to the point that the combined total is less than 2/3 of the Mesa Temple prior to the new temples being built.

I find it ironic that many claim to follow Jesus Christ and have testimonies, but fail to understand the important nature of becoming Saviors on Mount Zion.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why this is happening, when the temples should be overflowing with patrons giving thanksgiving for the increase in prosperity. Perhaps we are too much like the Nephites, which means the Lord is gonna smack us really bad to bring us back to what's really important. If He does, our lifestyles, prosperity, jobs, etc. etc. etc. will change dramatically. I really don't want to live through another 2009/2010 or worse!!!
I have been looking at the statistics for the Mesa Temple, and they are pretty bleak.
How can I look up statistics for temple work? That sounds cool!

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AI2.0
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by AI2.0 »

I also wonder where you go to look at these statistics to be able to come to this conclusion.

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LdsMarco
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by LdsMarco »

The source probably comes from a stake leadership meeting. But I would like to know myself

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Zowieink
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Location: Mesa, AZ

Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Zowieink »

The Temple department keeps track on number of ordinances completed each day. The recorder is the only one who can access the number of ordinances. I got into a discussion with the Temple matron and she and I went to the recorder. The resulting graph was revealing. I don’t think this lack of interest in Temple work is as prevelant in the Salt Lake area. When we have session after session with less than 10 patrons (especially in the evening) there is a problem. They are talking about cutting sessions, but haven’t received authorization yet, just possible.

brianj
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by brianj »

That is a scary thought.

Since moving to Utah, and while living near the Seattle temple, I have seen a lot of patron use.

Hint: If you are ever in Provo, don't try to go to the downtown temple on a Saturday. Parking is very difficult to find in the temple lots, you may need to walk a good distance from a parking location, I have seen more people than can fit in endowments, 30+ minute waits for initiatories, and been told of three hour waits for the baptistry.

gardener4life
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by gardener4life »

I wish more temples had laundry and clothes rentals. If you live with non-member family members or don't have good laundry facilities yourself (because of hard water that ruins white clothes) then you have to only use temples with laundry facilities.

JohnnyL
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by JohnnyL »

brianj wrote: January 3rd, 2018, 10:59 pm That is a scary thought.

Since moving to Utah, and while living near the Seattle temple, I have seen a lot of patron use.

Hint: If you are ever in Provo, don't try to go to the downtown temple on a Saturday. Parking is very difficult to find in the temple lots, you may need to walk a good distance from a parking location, I have seen more people than can fit in endowments, 30+ minute waits for initiatories, and been told of three hour waits for the baptistry.
Sounds like the Provo temple 20 years ago.

I don't like the new temple. Little attracts me to it. It reminds me of what I imagine would have been an early 1900's parlor. Not to mention it's easy to trip in a few places (poor design).

Z, maybe many of the snowbirds have finally settled down in Utah, to fly no more?

Crackers
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Crackers »

Temples in the moridor are crowded, even in off hours. I only like to attend the ones with organized seating/waiting in the chapel, so that you don't lose your place in line for a session by late comers essentially line jumping (whether on purpose or not). My husband and I once waited in the chapel for a session for almost two hours, and then went home, as we had young ones there with a babysitter who was not anticipating such a long night.

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Col. Flagg
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Col. Flagg »

It may have to do with the fact that more and more members of the church are learning about the parallels between the Masonic temple rituals and what takes place in ours, especially the eerie similarities and almost identical procedures that go on in the endowment ceremony. :(

Michelle
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Michelle »

Col. Flagg wrote: January 4th, 2018, 1:39 pm It may have to do with the fact that more and more members of the church are learning about the parallels between the Masonic temple rituals and what takes place in ours, especially the eerie similarities and almost identical procedures that go on in the endowment ceremony. :(
Or it could be all the people glued to their phones and distracted from real life. ;)

Matchmaker
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Matchmaker »

No trouble up here. The Salt Lake County Temples are always crowded. When one shuts down for renovation, the others fill up quickly.

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Mark
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Mark »

Col. Flagg wrote: January 4th, 2018, 1:39 pm It may have to do with the fact that more and more members of the church are learning about the parallels between the Masonic temple rituals and what takes place in ours, especially the eerie similarities and almost identical procedures that go on in the endowment ceremony. :(
Sounds like Aussie has been feeding you more of his anti clap trap. Just shows how little you really understand about the temple ordinances. They go back to Adam. REVELATION IS THE KEY. There are many imitations out there. Look into Kung fu and CHI power as practiced by inner circle monks in the Shaolin temple. Eerie similarities. So many fascinating parallels. Taken in context it should build ones faith in the endowment and all the ordinances of the temple,not tear it down. Get educated and don't fall for all the deceptive misinformation circulating at the speed of the internet. JOSEPH RECEIVED THE ENDOWMENT THRU REVELATION. Gain that testimony by the power of the spirit or you will soon be toast.

Silver
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Silver »

Mark wrote: January 4th, 2018, 2:19 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: January 4th, 2018, 1:39 pm It may have to do with the fact that more and more members of the church are learning about the parallels between the Masonic temple rituals and what takes place in ours, especially the eerie similarities and almost identical procedures that go on in the endowment ceremony. :(
Sounds like Aussie has been feeding you more of his anti clap trap. Just shows how little you really understand about the temple ordinances. They go back to Adam. REVELATION IS THE KEY. There are many imitations out there. Look into Kung fu and CHI power as practiced by inner circle monks in the Shaolin temple. Eerie similarities. So many fascinating parallels. Taken in context it should build ones faith in the endowment and all the ordinances of the temple,not tear it down. Get educated and don't fall for all the deceptive misinformation circulating at the speed of the internet. JOSEPH RECEIVED THE ENDOWMENT THRU REVELATION. Gain that testimony by the power of the spirit or you will soon be toast.
Ditto on some Shinto practices in Japan along with other Japanese cultural elements.

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gradles21
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by gradles21 »

Col. Flagg wrote: January 4th, 2018, 1:39 pm It may have to do with the fact that more and more members of the church are learning about the parallels between the Masonic temple rituals and what takes place in ours, especially the eerie similarities and almost identical procedures that go on in the endowment ceremony. :(
Weird, I've never noticed a dancing girl in a leotard in an endowment session before.

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gkearney
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by gkearney »

gradles21 wrote: January 4th, 2018, 3:32 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: January 4th, 2018, 1:39 pm It may have to do with the fact that more and more members of the church are learning about the parallels between the Masonic temple rituals and what takes place in ours, especially the eerie similarities and almost identical procedures that go on in the endowment ceremony. :(
Weird, I've never noticed a dancing girl in a leotard in an endowment session before.
And I have never noticed any such thing in a lodge meeting either.

JohnnyL
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by JohnnyL »

gkearney wrote: January 5th, 2018, 6:10 am
gradles21 wrote: January 4th, 2018, 3:32 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: January 4th, 2018, 1:39 pm It may have to do with the fact that more and more members of the church are learning about the parallels between the Masonic temple rituals and what takes place in ours, especially the eerie similarities and almost identical procedures that go on in the endowment ceremony. :(
Weird, I've never noticed a dancing girl in a leotard in an endowment session before.
And I have never noticed any such thing in a lodge meeting either.
And I thought I had mentioned this before? Search youtube, you'll find one (or maybe more).

JohnnyL
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by JohnnyL »

Mark wrote: January 4th, 2018, 2:19 pm Look into Kung fu and CHI power as practiced by inner circle monks in the Shaolin temple. Eerie similarities. So many fascinating parallels.
Reference(s)?

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gkearney
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by gkearney »

JohnnyL wrote: January 5th, 2018, 8:46 am
gkearney wrote: January 5th, 2018, 6:10 am
gradles21 wrote: January 4th, 2018, 3:32 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: January 4th, 2018, 1:39 pm It may have to do with the fact that more and more members of the church are learning about the parallels between the Masonic temple rituals and what takes place in ours, especially the eerie similarities and almost identical procedures that go on in the endowment ceremony. :(
Weird, I've never noticed a dancing girl in a leotard in an endowment session before.
And I have never noticed any such thing in a lodge meeting either.
And I thought I had mentioned this before? Search youtube, you'll find one (or maybe more).

The idea of dancing girls at Masonic events comes from the Shriners, while all Shriners are Masons not all Masons, myself included are Shriners. In any event Shriners had a reputation of being a bit on the wild side a reputation that was amplified and reinforced in the popular culture (Bye, Bye, Birdie) the reputation is somewhat of an exaggeration but has just enough truth in it, particularly in the past, to keep it alive in the popular imagination.

IN any event I have never had occasion to ever see any such thing in the many Masonic functions that I have been to over the years including those sponsored by the Shriners.

natasha
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by natasha »

Whenever hubby and I attend the Temple, we are always amazed and gratified with the large number of people in attendance. Only once was I in a session that was really small....and that was when I went to Nova Scotia with three of my five children in 2013....the Halifax Temple. It is a small Temple and located right next door to a Stake Center. We had made an appointment to do one endowment session and then a pile of sealings. I recall vividly how I looked around while we were waiting for the endowment sessions to start and "counted" three females (me and two daughters) and two men (one my son). I thought ahead to the prayer circle. Nevertheless, the endowment session proceeded and everything went just fine....a little scrunched in the circle but with a wonderful spirit. The brother who gave the prayer was elderly with swollen feet shoved into just the front part of slippers and he prayed that the spirit would move upon the Saints in Nova Scotia that they would be desirous of attending the Temple. The Church does not have a large presence in Nova Scotia but I sincerely believe it will improve.

Now, as for the discussion regarding masonry and Temple ordinances. As I have said before, my husband is Native American and when he went through the temple for the first time he said that there was something very familiar about it to him. If any of you have ever attended an actual, real, Native American Pow-wow, you would be able to pick out a few things that would remind you of the temple. The adversary is the great duplicater and uses whatever he can to confound and confuse mankind. That is what makes faith so doggone important. I read a statement somewhere here or elsewhere on the internet: Faith never demands an answer to all things; but the courage/strength to move forward in faith. (May not be exact!) At what point do each of us have to realize that we need to rely on the first principles of the Gospel and then hand-cuff ourselves to the iron rod!

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captainfearnot
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by captainfearnot »

Zowieink wrote: January 3rd, 2018, 3:56 pm Over the last 8 years, there has been a dramatic decrease in the endowments and initiatory ordinances. If you combine the Gila Valley Temple, Tucson Temple, Gilbert Temple, and Phoenix Temple, the combined total of endowments (for the dead) has dropped to the point that the combined total is less than 2/3 of the Mesa Temple prior to the new temples being built.
Wait, I just want to make sure I understand your numbers correctly. I can't tell if you're saying the number of endowment patrons has actually decreased, or if it just hasn't increased proportionally to the temples being built.

Are you including Mesa with the other four temples in your combined total of current usage? Or are you saying that the combined usage of the four new temples today is 67% of the usage in Mesa eight years ago? If the latter, then we'd need to know what Mesa's usage looks like today in order to see what's going on.

Assuming Mesa usage remained constant, then the story is that we built four new temples and total usage only went up 67%. Ideally usage would have increased proportionally with capacity, which it clearly did not. In that case the problem may be that we just built too many temples. There is a limit to demand for endowment sessions, and increasing the supply only helps until you reach that limit. At some point building more temples doesn't have any effect. Diminishing marginal returns.

But, if you are saying that total overall temple attendance in Arizona is actually less now than eight years ago, that's something else entirely. That suggests that building more temples actually had an adverse affect on usage. If true, that could be explained by perceptions.

Crowds attract crowds. Most of us don't like crowds and take measures to avoid them, but subconsciously we take our cues from crowds. When you show up to do a session and the room is full, that signals that you are doing something that is popular with your peers, and it makes you want to do it more. It creates the impression of scarcity and desirability. When you show up and the room is nearly empty, it creates the opposite impression. So taking a current pool of patrons at one temple and dividing them up between five temples could drive total attendance down if people perceive the dramatic drop in patrons per session as devaluing the whole activity.

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Col. Flagg
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Col. Flagg »

Mark wrote: January 4th, 2018, 2:19 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: January 4th, 2018, 1:39 pm It may have to do with the fact that more and more members of the church are learning about the parallels between the Masonic temple rituals and what takes place in ours, especially the eerie similarities and almost identical procedures that go on in the endowment ceremony. :(
Sounds like Aussie has been feeding you more of his anti clap trap. Just shows how little you really understand about the temple ordinances. They go back to Adam. REVELATION IS THE KEY. There are many imitations out there. Look into Kung fu and CHI power as practiced by inner circle monks in the Shaolin temple. Eerie similarities. So many fascinating parallels. Taken in context it should build ones faith in the endowment and all the ordinances of the temple,not tear it down. Get educated and don't fall for all the deceptive misinformation circulating at the speed of the internet. JOSEPH RECEIVED THE ENDOWMENT THRU REVELATION. Gain that testimony by the power of the spirit or you will soon be toast.
Mark, back together again old friend! :) Along with Natasha!! 8-)

The truth of the matter is that Joseph became a Mason before he instituted the temple endowment ceremony - I've seen and read about the ritual that goes on in Masonic temples and it is almost 100% identical with the exception of characters, symbols, signs, tokens and handshakes being changed to something entirely different for the temple endowment. All I can say is that I am glad I didn't go through any endowment sessions before 1990 or I might have never gone back.
Good to hear from you though - hope all is well. :) Same with you Nat.

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gkearney
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Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by gkearney »

Col. Flagg wrote: January 5th, 2018, 1:46 pm Mark, back together again old friend! :) Along with Natasha!! 8-)

The truth of the matter is that Joseph became a Mason before he instituted the temple endowment ceremony - I've seen and read about the ritual that goes on in Masonic temples and it is almost 100% identical with the exception of characters, symbols, signs, tokens and handshakes being changed to something entirely different for the temple endowment. All I can say is that I am glad I didn't go through any endowment sessions before 1990 or I might have never gone back. Good to hear from you though - hope all is well. :) Same with you Nat.
Now hold on here, I have been a Mason and an active temple attending Latter-day Saint my whole adult life. I went through the endowment prior to 1990 and further I have studied, lectured (before both LDS and Masonic audiences) and written extensively on the topic of the development of the endowment and Masonic rituals. While I am the first to admit parallels between the two and no, I do not hold to the idea of the endowment ritual originating in antiquity, even in my approach would never make the kind of sweeping statement that the endowment and the rituals of the Masonic lodge are anything close to "100% identical".

Take it from someone who has and continues to attend both the temple and the Masonic lodge. There are similarities and there are considerable differences, particularly so in the modern endowment.

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