Where have all the patrons gone?

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by drtanner »

Col. Flagg wrote: January 9th, 2018, 1:03 pm
investigator wrote: January 9th, 2018, 9:49 am
Mark wrote: January 4th, 2018, 2:19 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: January 4th, 2018, 1:39 pm It may have to do with the fact that more and more members of the church are learning about the parallels between the Masonic temple rituals and what takes place in ours, especially the eerie similarities and almost identical procedures that go on in the endowment ceremony. :(
Sounds like Aussie has been feeding you more of his anti clap trap. Just shows how little you really understand about the temple ordinances. They go back to Adam. REVELATION IS THE KEY. There are many imitations out there. Look into Kung fu and CHI power as practiced by inner circle monks in the Shaolin temple. Eerie similarities. So many fascinating parallels. Taken in context it should build ones faith in the endowment and all the ordinances of the temple,not tear it down. Get educated and don't fall for all the deceptive misinformation circulating at the speed of the internet. JOSEPH RECEIVED THE ENDOWMENT THRU REVELATION. Gain that testimony by the power of the spirit or you will soon be toast.
I too believe that "JOSEPH RECEIVED THE ENDOWMENT THRU REVELATION". Joseph also said this about what he received.
"Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed." (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, pp412-422)
Did you get that? The ordinances...are not to be altered or changed."

In my lifetime the ordinances have been changed dozens of times. When I went through the initiatory ordinances I was actually washed, anointed, and clothed. We now have an ordinance where we are neither washed, anointed or clothed. I am a witness to the fact that the washing, anointing, and clothing ordinances have been "altered or changed". We are very quick to criticize, especially the Catholics for changing ordinances; however, when we do it, even against the council of the Man who communed with Jehovah, we conveniently turn a blind eye. Could this be one of the reasons why the numbers of the patrons have gone down?
The Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever - why would anything change as it pertains to the restored gospel??? Great post Investigator! I would surmise two things as to why there have been changes... the fallibility of men and the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.
How many times did Jospeh change the ordinance of sacrament in his lifetime?? Lots. Could it mean something else if that is the case? (YES) Important to look at what was changed and what was not to understand what he is referring to.

DesertWonderer2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1164

Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by DesertWonderer2 »

Col. Flagg wrote: January 9th, 2018, 12:59 pm What I’d be interested in seeing is a breakdown of the statistics regarding which ordinances in the temple are on the decline – does anyone know if the church produces individual temple ordinance statistics as opposed to just overall temple attendance?
Why?

User avatar
Col. Flagg
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 16961
Location: Utah County

Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Col. Flagg »

DesertWonderer2 wrote: January 9th, 2018, 3:33 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: January 9th, 2018, 12:59 pm What I’d be interested in seeing is a breakdown of the statistics regarding which ordinances in the temple are on the decline – does anyone know if the church produces individual temple ordinance statistics as opposed to just overall temple attendance?
Why?
Hope the data for baptisms, confirmations and sealings isn't declining along with endowment participation.

User avatar
David13
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7072
Location: Utah

Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by David13 »

I have yet to, but I will check with our Temple here to see if numbers are down.

As to the male female attendance split, i had noticed also that there frequently seemed to be more female than male. But that was when I was most attending, which was weekdays during the day.
I think we can assume that many men were working at that time, and the wife, perhaps not working, would then attend the Temple. Also widows.

However, there were a few occasions where there were more men. I think it just depends on what else is going on. I think that was near to the first Saturday women's session of conference, and thus perhaps the sisters were headed to Salt Lake, or just lining up for their conference talks. People do prepare for that, you know.

I did like the comments about Provo, City Center I believe you mean. I was there only once, almost two years ago when they had just opened. Yes, crowded, not much parking, waiting for the next session. But it was indeed a likeable Temple, just stuck into the urban crowded environment.

The most important factor to me is the live session. Watching a movie. I don't watch tv or movies. So I don't want to watch a movie in the Temple.
I like real, live, living and breathing people, with their mistakes showing their humanity, even if some of them are old. Being a little bit old, I no longer have any contempt for old people. Or not much anyway, for most of them, mostly.
dc

User avatar
Zowieink
captain of 100
Posts: 725
Location: Mesa, AZ

Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Zowieink »

Here’s and interesting RUMOR! Elder Bednar recently spoke at a devotional at BYU Idaho. After the meeting he visited with a few people, one of which is the Grand daughter of a initiatory coordinator at my temple. Here’s the rumor....when asked what the greatest concern of the First Presidency and the 12, he said “apathy”. He went on, “Apathy of the members toward Temple duty, tithes and offerings, sac. Mtg. Especially in Idaho, Utah, and Arizona. Hmmmmm.....interesting.

DesertWonderer2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1164

Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by DesertWonderer2 »

The session I officiated Sat morning was so full I had to bring in folding chairs to accomodate the patrions. Apathy?

User avatar
Zowieink
captain of 100
Posts: 725
Location: Mesa, AZ

Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Zowieink »

I have served as an ordinance works on Tues, Thurs, Fri, nights and Sat mid day shifts. They are all the same. Sat morning is better, but taken as a whole the lack of patrons shows much apathy towards this work. Most sessions on Tues, Wed, Thurs, Friday, and Saturday nights need help in p. circles in 1/2 to 3/4 of the sessions, and witness couple help in 1/3 or more of the sessions.

Every now and then we get a session over 15 people, but it is becoming much more rare. Even own endowment sessions have less than 20 people in them, with some in the single digits. There are 27 stakes in my temple district with over 27,000 temple recommends. If everyone came 1 time a month, daily endowment counts would be over 2,800 each day (instead of 475). If they came 6 times a year, the daily endowment session counts would be slightly over 1,500. We basically have between 480 and 560 per day, which we are very, very grateful for. But, morning sessions are larger, mid-day sessions have 5 to 15 each session, consistently. Evening sessions are the lowest except for 6:30, 7:00 and 6:30 where we might get 20ish patrons, with a total of 107 to 140 at night.

So, we wait and hope that the members in this temple district will not be apathetic and remember the covenants and promises we make. It is a time offering (time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has given us).

User avatar
gkearney
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5346

Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by gkearney »

I have to wonder if this has more to do with demographics. Mesa is an urban center and there have been temples built outside that center. If the population of members has shifted away from the urban core could they be it be a situation where the same number of patrons are being divided up into more temples causing the numbers at each to be smaller.

brianj
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4066
Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by brianj »

DesertWonderer2 wrote: January 15th, 2018, 11:04 am The session I officiated Sat morning was so full I had to bring in folding chairs to accomodate the patrions. Apathy?
Yes. An exception to a rule doesn't prove the rule is false. The fact that it is held up as an exception proves the rule is true.

Try a 2 pm session on Saturday, or any other day of the week. Try a 7 PM session Monday through Thursday. See how crowded it is.

User avatar
Zowieink
captain of 100
Posts: 725
Location: Mesa, AZ

Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by Zowieink »

So, so true. Last week less than 10 patrons

DesertWonderer2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1164

Re: Where have all the patrons gone?

Post by DesertWonderer2 »

brianj wrote: January 15th, 2018, 6:39 pm
DesertWonderer2 wrote: January 15th, 2018, 11:04 am The session I officiated Sat morning was so full I had to bring in folding chairs to accomodate the patrions. Apathy?
Yes. An exception to a rule doesn't prove the rule is false. The fact that it is held up as an exception proves the rule is true.

Try a 2 pm session on Saturday, or any other day of the week. Try a 7 PM session Monday through Thursday. See how crowded it is.
OK ; the 6 AM session that same day was 3/4 full. 6 AM attendance is quite admirable I’d say.

Post Reply