Multiple Mortal Probations Article

[Alaris]

We were reading these verses in Sunday School yesterday and it made me think of this thread.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

We see here that even the noble and great ones were spirits. It seems the only way this theory would work is if you believe that when your mortal life is over you can defer resurrection and remain a spirit. So lets say I live into the millennium, live to the age of a tree, and then am changed, does that mean (according the the mmp theory) that I could choose to be transformed into a spirit body again and not my resurrected body? What would I be doing as a spirit for 1 thousand years? Who is creating brand-new spirit bodies that will enter the 1st estate for the next round, and who is occupying the celestial world after the millennium?

Thanks Sarah - I've said from the beginning I don't have all the answers but have shared the ones I've received to some degree. I do agree there could be some choice given at some point - accept your inheritance or choose to move on and earn a higher inheritance and better resurrection. Perhaps Adam's fruit partaking is symbolic of the fact we have our eternal reward and inheritance and can keep it or partake of an ordinance whereby we give up our bodies / inheritance to continue from grace to grace and exaltation to exaltation.

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

As Heber C. Kimball shared, the symbolism of MMP is reflected in our world. As I partook of the sacrament on Sunday, I thought of this symbol - of eating or ingesting every 7 days and realized this is yet another symbol of MMP! I believe there is an ordinance where we are given a choice to sacrifice our eternal standing for "knowledge" as Adam did. We would then be in the spirit again. Something to think about and pray about.

"What I do not to-day, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. ...This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection. Brethren, this is the course we have to take; it is a progressive work from one day to another, and from one week to another; and if we advance this year, we are so far advanced in preparation to better go through the next year." ~ Heber C. Kimball, JD:4-329

You forget that Abraham is now an exalted God but came down as a spirit......

alaris you are blatantly dishonest - purposefully avoid the truth and try and deflect by changing the topic. I have given much substantial evidence of your deceit. Made many many posts that you are unable to answer and simply ignore. You post countless scriptures blatantly changing the meaning, when corrected you are found wanting and simply say pray about it. You claim the handbooks of the church are false -only a prophet of God can preach a new doctrine but you again and again preach new strange doctrines like Davitic servant and MMP.

In all your posts you have showed time and time again a lack in the very basic understanding of the gospel relating to restoration, salvation, atonement, resurrection, claiming the church is telestrial, You need to remember what is recorded on earth is recorded in heaven and all your blogs will come against you in the last days...

I have proved them all wrong in all cases and laid bare your dishonesty, you have nothing but are left to say pray about it - since none of us listen to the voice of the evil one - it is a hopeless request from your side. Only the voice of the evil one preaches such a doctrine as MMP.

Every time I've tried to engage you civilly I've addressed your deliberate misstatements with as much patience as I can muster. You have misstated and ignored nearly everything I've written and are now claiming I haven't responded adequately and that I am dishonest. The opposite is clearly documented in this thread.

You've stated your case. I've stated mine. I have invited you and anyone to pray about it. You have not and still have not.

This post I'm replying to, for example, has no substance other than a bunch of false accusations. However, I will give you this. When I first started learning about the Davidic Servant it was indeed strange. Strange that so few LDS take Joseph Smith at his word. Mmp is another example.

You have deliberately misstated me time and time and time again in this thread where there is no such guile on display by me, yet I am the blatantly dishonest? Does the honest person teach to pray or the dishonest. Because you've come down on prayer again in your post.

[Spaced_Out]

Thanks Sarah - I've said from the beginning I don't have all the answers but have shared the ones I've received to some degree. I do agree there could be some choice given at some point - accept your inheritance or choose to move on and earn a higher inheritance and better resurrection. Perhaps Adam's fruit partaking is symbolic of the fact we have our eternal reward and inheritance and can keep it or partake of an ordinance whereby we give up our bodies / inheritance to continue from grace to grace and exaltation to exaltation.

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

This post I'm replying to, for example, has no substance other than a bunch of false accusations. However, I will give you this. When I first started learning about the Davidic Servant it was indeed strange. Strange that so few LDS take Joseph Smith at his word. Mmp is another example.

You have deliberately misstated me time and time and time again in this thread where there is no such guile on display by me, yet I am the blatantly dishonest? Does the honest person teach to pray or the dishonest. Because you've come down on prayer again in your post.

or

Your answer is a lie. You know that there is only two resurrection the resurrection of the Just and the resurrection of the unjust or bodies celestial, terrestrial and telestrial that the scripture referring to. It is totally dishonest to say the scripture refers to one being able to be resurrected multiple times.. You also totally ignore the fact that Abraham is now a resurrected and exalted being only after one mortality..

Resurrection does not mean giving up your bodies but joined inseparable. There is no scripture on being able to be resurrected multiple times or teachings in the church but many to the contrary. You have a sound knowledge of these things yet you blatantly lie and deceive.

I have answered your pray thing many times referring to Alma 32 and example of Uchtdorf, you make yourself out to be the only one that receives revelation??? I have seen a vision on the resurrection there is no mistake - an inseparable connection that is taught throughout the scriptures. You simply blow it away saying I did not understand what I was shown and felt. What you teach and claim to receive revelation about is contrary to teaching of the apostles and scripture but teach it for truth therefore it is a lie.

Way to judge is plain and easy - what you teach does not persuade people to do good and believe in Christ as you teach only one gets saved and there is multiple saviours and each person entering needs to become a saviour if they want to enter exaltation.


Moroni 7:14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

[Silver]

We were reading these verses in Sunday School yesterday and it made me think of this thread.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

We see here that even the noble and great ones were spirits. It seems the only way this theory would work is if you believe that when your mortal life is over you can defer resurrection and remain a spirit. So lets say I live into the millennium, live to the age of a tree, and then am changed, does that mean (according the the mmp theory) that I could choose to be transformed into a spirit body again and not my resurrected body? What would I be doing as a spirit for 1 thousand years? Who is creating brand-new spirit bodies that will enter the 1st estate for the next round, and who is occupying the celestial world after the millennium?

Thanks Sarah - I've said from the beginning I don't have all the answers but have shared the ones I've received to some degree. I do agree there could be some choice given at some point - accept your inheritance or choose to move on and earn a higher inheritance and better resurrection. Perhaps Adam's fruit partaking is symbolic of the fact we have our eternal reward and inheritance and can keep it or partake of an ordinance whereby we give up our bodies / inheritance to continue from grace to grace and exaltation to exaltation.

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

As Heber C. Kimball shared, the symbolism of MMP is reflected in our world. As I partook of the sacrament on Sunday, I thought of this symbol - of eating or ingesting every 7 days and realized this is yet another symbol of MMP! I believe there is an ordinance where we are given a choice to sacrifice our eternal standing for "knowledge" as Adam did. We would then be in the spirit again. Something to think about and pray about.

"What I do not to-day, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. ...This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection. Brethren, this is the course we have to take; it is a progressive work from one day to another, and from one week to another; and if we advance this year, we are so far advanced in preparation to better go through the next year." ~ Heber C. Kimball, JD:4-329

You forget that Abraham is now an exalted God but came down as a spirit......

alaris you are blatantly dishonest - purposefully avoid the truth and try and deflect by changing the topic. I have given much substantial evidence of your deceit. Made many many posts that you are unable to answer and simply ignore. You post countless scriptures blatantly changing the meaning, when corrected you are found wanting and simply say pray about it. You claim the handbooks of the church are false -only a prophet of God can preach a new doctrine but you again and again preach new strange doctrines like Davitic servant and MMP.

In all your posts you have showed time and time again a lack in the very basic understanding of the gospel relating to restoration, salvation, atonement, resurrection, claiming the church is telestrial, You need to remember what is recorded on earth is recorded in heaven and all your blogs will come against you in the last days...

I have proved them all wrong in all cases and laid bare your dishonesty, you have nothing but are left to say pray about it - since none of us listen to the voice of the evil one - it is a hopeless request from your side. Only the voice of the evil one preaches such a doctrine as MMP.

Every time I've tried to engage you civilly I've addressed your deliberate misstatements with as much patience as I can muster. You have misstated and ignored nearly everything I've written and are now claiming I haven't responded adequately and that I am dishonest. The opposite is clearly documented in this thread.

You've stated your case. I've stated mine. I have invited you and anyone to pray about it. You have not and still have not.

This post I'm replying to, for example, has no substance other than a bunch of false accusations. However, I will give you this. When I first started learning about the Davidic Servant it was indeed strange. Strange that so few LDS take Joseph Smith at his word. Mmp is another example.

You have deliberately misstated me time and time and time again in this thread where there is no such guile on display by me, yet I am the blatantly dishonest? Does the honest person teach to pray or the dishonest. Because you've come down on prayer again in your post.

Seriously, alaris, the gig is up. On this very day you have heard the word of an Apostle tell you there is but one mortal experience and yet you deny. You truly are Sherem/Nehor/Korihor. Thank goodness for prophets in the latter days and for the Book of Mormon that teaches us how to recognizes liars like you.

[Alaris]

Thanks Sarah - I've said from the beginning I don't have all the answers but have shared the ones I've received to some degree. I do agree there could be some choice given at some point - accept your inheritance or choose to move on and earn a higher inheritance and better resurrection. Perhaps Adam's fruit partaking is symbolic of the fact we have our eternal reward and inheritance and can keep it or partake of an ordinance whereby we give up our bodies / inheritance to continue from grace to grace and exaltation to exaltation.

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

This post I'm replying to, for example, has no substance other than a bunch of false accusations. However, I will give you this. When I first started learning about the Davidic Servant it was indeed strange. Strange that so few LDS take Joseph Smith at his word. Mmp is another example.

You have deliberately misstated me time and time and time again in this thread where there is no such guile on display by me, yet I am the blatantly dishonest? Does the honest person teach to pray or the dishonest. Because you've come down on prayer again in your post.

or

Your answer is a lie. You know that there is only two resurrection the resurrection of the Just and the resurrection of the unjust or bodies celestial, terrestrial and telestrial that the scripture referring to. It is totally dishonest to say the scripture refers to one being able to be resurrected multiple times.. You also totally ignore the fact that Abraham is now a resurrected and exalted being only after one mortality..

Resurrection does not mean giving up your bodies but joined inseparable. There is no scripture on being able to be resurrected multiple times or teachings in the church but many to the contrary. You have a sound knowledge of these things yet you blatantly lie and deceive.

I have answered your pray thing many times referring to Alma 32 and example of Uchtdorf, you make yourself out to be the only one that receives revelation??? I have seen a vision on the resurrection there is no mistake - an inseparable connection that is taught throughout the scriptures. You simply blow it away saying I did not understand what I was shown and felt. What you teach and claim to receive revelation about is contrary to teaching of the apostles and scripture but teach it for truth therefore it is a lie.

Way to judge is plain and easy - what you teach does not persuade people to do good and believe in Christ as you teach only one gets saved and there is multiple saviours and each person entering needs to become a saviour if they want to enter exaltation.


Moroni 7:14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

Moroni 7 is a great scripture I've already used in this thread. To say I'm deliberately lying is a gross misclassification coming from someone who deliberately misstates my replies. It's almost comical, or at least it was comical. The lot of you who have gang style reviled me accusing me of lies and heresy.... Where is your self awareness? This is wrong on so many levels. I am not the only one who believes mmp obviously. But hey let's pretend Alaris made this whole thing up.

If I were mistaken, I certainly have given every indication I believe this to the core. Where is the concern for my soul if I err? Let's call Alaris a liar and a heretic because that'll save him! Let's burn bridges spirit of contention style rather that build them D&C 121 style. Who has shown any love in this thread? Ai2.0 did in one post.

You make your own assumptions about mmp and show how your fabrication conflicts with the atonement and then accuse me of not only believing your fabrication but that I deliberately crafted it by lies. What a twisting!! Except... Im not the only one who believes mmp. Liars don't ask people to pray they tell them prayer is a waste of time.

These are the fruits you all can and will continue to display and I will continue to cite these behaviors as often as you offer them up and as often as the Lord wills me to do so. You think you are wearing me down Alinsky style by keeping the pressure on with your revilings and despicable behavior. Bring on the mocking and the finger pointing and the mists of darkness. You only continue to display the spirit by which you are bound incapable of showing the least bit of charity.

The moment you acknowledge this before the Lord immediately His grace can begin to take effect. Have you all even brought your behaviors here to the Lord? Do you pray before your post and edit out what doesn't feel right?

[Alaris]

Thanks Sarah - I've said from the beginning I don't have all the answers but have shared the ones I've received to some degree. I do agree there could be some choice given at some point - accept your inheritance or choose to move on and earn a higher inheritance and better resurrection. Perhaps Adam's fruit partaking is symbolic of the fact we have our eternal reward and inheritance and can keep it or partake of an ordinance whereby we give up our bodies / inheritance to continue from grace to grace and exaltation to exaltation.



As Heber C. Kimball shared, the symbolism of MMP is reflected in our world. As I partook of the sacrament on Sunday, I thought of this symbol - of eating or ingesting every 7 days and realized this is yet another symbol of MMP! I believe there is an ordinance where we are given a choice to sacrifice our eternal standing for "knowledge" as Adam did. We would then be in the spirit again. Something to think about and pray about.

You forget that Abraham is now an exalted God but came down as a spirit......

alaris you are blatantly dishonest - purposefully avoid the truth and try and deflect by changing the topic. I have given much substantial evidence of your deceit. Made many many posts that you are unable to answer and simply ignore. You post countless scriptures blatantly changing the meaning, when corrected you are found wanting and simply say pray about it. You claim the handbooks of the church are false -only a prophet of God can preach a new doctrine but you again and again preach new strange doctrines like Davitic servant and MMP.

In all your posts you have showed time and time again a lack in the very basic understanding of the gospel relating to restoration, salvation, atonement, resurrection, claiming the church is telestrial, You need to remember what is recorded on earth is recorded in heaven and all your blogs will come against you in the last days...

I have proved them all wrong in all cases and laid bare your dishonesty, you have nothing but are left to say pray about it - since none of us listen to the voice of the evil one - it is a hopeless request from your side. Only the voice of the evil one preaches such a doctrine as MMP.

Every time I've tried to engage you civilly I've addressed your deliberate misstatements with as much patience as I can muster. You have misstated and ignored nearly everything I've written and are now claiming I haven't responded adequately and that I am dishonest. The opposite is clearly documented in this thread.

You've stated your case. I've stated mine. I have invited you and anyone to pray about it. You have not and still have not.

This post I'm replying to, for example, has no substance other than a bunch of false accusations. However, I will give you this. When I first started learning about the Davidic Servant it was indeed strange. Strange that so few LDS take Joseph Smith at his word. Mmp is another example.

You have deliberately misstated me time and time and time again in this thread where there is no such guile on display by me, yet I am the blatantly dishonest? Does the honest person teach to pray or the dishonest. Because you've come down on prayer again in your post.

Seriously, alaris, the gig is up. On this very day you have heard the word of an Apostle tell you there is but one mortal experience and yet you deny. You truly are Sherem/Nehor/Korihor. Thank goodness for prophets in the latter days and for the Book of Mormon that teaches us how to recognizes liars like you.

Thanks Silver. I have admitted that President Uchtdorfs comment was compelling. I have also stated my beliefs clearly in my article and in this thread and why I believe them. I'll pray and ponder on his statements.

I suggest you do the same. Perhaps a self inventory is in order for all of us here eh?

If there were attempts to show charity along with invitations to give up my "heresy" perhaps I would have been more surprised. Yet the spirit of the detractors in this thread has been consistently vile as such is the nature of all things that oppose truth. I am less surprised at this behavior but was surprised at the amplitude and viscosity. I wonder what has the adversary yanking those chains with all his might?

[Silver]

You forget that Abraham is now an exalted God but came down as a spirit......

alaris you are blatantly dishonest - purposefully avoid the truth and try and deflect by changing the topic. I have given much substantial evidence of your deceit. Made many many posts that you are unable to answer and simply ignore. You post countless scriptures blatantly changing the meaning, when corrected you are found wanting and simply say pray about it. You claim the handbooks of the church are false -only a prophet of God can preach a new doctrine but you again and again preach new strange doctrines like Davitic servant and MMP.

In all your posts you have showed time and time again a lack in the very basic understanding of the gospel relating to restoration, salvation, atonement, resurrection, claiming the church is telestrial, You need to remember what is recorded on earth is recorded in heaven and all your blogs will come against you in the last days...

I have proved them all wrong in all cases and laid bare your dishonesty, you have nothing but are left to say pray about it - since none of us listen to the voice of the evil one - it is a hopeless request from your side. Only the voice of the evil one preaches such a doctrine as MMP.

Every time I've tried to engage you civilly I've addressed your deliberate misstatements with as much patience as I can muster. You have misstated and ignored nearly everything I've written and are now claiming I haven't responded adequately and that I am dishonest. The opposite is clearly documented in this thread.

You've stated your case. I've stated mine. I have invited you and anyone to pray about it. You have not and still have not.

This post I'm replying to, for example, has no substance other than a bunch of false accusations. However, I will give you this. When I first started learning about the Davidic Servant it was indeed strange. Strange that so few LDS take Joseph Smith at his word. Mmp is another example.

You have deliberately misstated me time and time and time again in this thread where there is no such guile on display by me, yet I am the blatantly dishonest? Does the honest person teach to pray or the dishonest. Because you've come down on prayer again in your post.

Seriously, alaris, the gig is up. On this very day you have heard the word of an Apostle tell you there is but one mortal experience and yet you deny. You truly are Sherem/Nehor/Korihor. Thank goodness for prophets in the latter days and for the Book of Mormon that teaches us how to recognizes liars like you.

Thanks Silver. I have admitted that President Uchtdorfs comment was compelling. I have also stated my beliefs clearly in my article and in this thread and why I believe them. I'll pray and ponder on his statements.

I suggest you do the same. Perhaps a self inventory is in order for all of us here eh?

If there were attempts to show charity along with invitations to give up my "heresy" perhaps I would have been more surprised. Yet the spirit of the detractors in this thread has been consistently vile as such is the nature of all things that oppose truth. I am less surprised at this behavior but was surprised at the amplitude and viscosity. I wonder what has the adversary yanking those chains with all his might?

You can pose all you want, but you brought the derision on yourself. Of course Article of Faith #11 allows for those not of our faith to believe whatever they like. Your problem was that you tried to claim that the heresy of MMP is part and parcel of LDS doctrine. That is clearly wrong as you were shown, but you tried to deceive readers (and your esteemed "lurkers") here by twisting our messages into "contention." What the world needs now is fewer contortionists like you, alaris, and more truth-seekers. Page after page, but your eyes were closed. Even now you say you will pray about President's Uchtdorf's statement which I suspect merely means that you haven't given up your cherished blasphemy.

And your attempts to guilt-trip me are in vain. It is your fault this discussion lasted this long as you played the wounded victim card. So when are you going to man up and talk with your bishop?

[DesertWonderer2]

Hahahahaha

[Kingdom of ZION]

I just listened to Elder Uchtdorf’s talk to the YSA from last night. He very specifically stated that there is ONE mortal probation. So who do you belive: KOZ, Alarias, Julie Rowe, The Remnant OR an ORDAINED apostle of Jesus Christ?

It’s all quite simple isn’t it?

I do not believe in Multiple Mortal Probations. Second Estate Beings come here but once. I do not believe in the doctrine that teaches you have unlimited 'another turn of the crank' or that you do it over and over again until you get it right!

I believe that there is a Doctrine called "Eternal Lives". It is in your scriptures if you care to look. The Elect come down here into hell to fulfill missions unto Father and His Son. They do not come here to get another chance (probation or Reprobation). They were chosen because they had already proven their valency. As they all have had their Calling and Election (not made sure as of yet), before they were ever born here, D&C 132 speaks most pointedly and clearly about them. Though they may commit all manner of sins here, as long as they do not sin against the Holy Ghost, they shall be brought back into Father's presence. You do not see this applying to just anyone, and certainly not everyone!

Shalom

[mirkwood]

Admit nothing. Deny everything. Counter accuse everyone. Only one poster in this thread matches that description.

Oh, and since it seems to have been glossed over. Yes I prayed about MMP. It is heresy. Those who believe it are heretics. They could change their ways, but at least one of them suffers from: admit nothing, deny everything, counter accuse everyone.

[Sarah]

I just listened to Elder Uchtdorf’s talk to the YSA from last night. He very specifically stated that there is ONE mortal probation. So who do you belive: KOZ, Alarias, Julie Rowe, The Remnant OR an ORDAINED apostle of Jesus Christ?

It’s all quite simple isn’t it?

I do not believe in Multiple Mortal Probations. Second Estate Beings come here but once. I do not believe in the doctrine that teaches you have unlimited 'another turn of the crank' or that you do it over and over again until you get it right!

I believe that there is a Doctrine called "Eternal Lives". It is in your scriptures if you care to look. The Elect come down here into hell to fulfill missions unto Father and His Son. They do not come here to get another chance (probation or Reprobation). They were chosen because they had already proven their valency. As they all have had their Calling and Election (not made sure as of yet), before they were ever born here, D&C 132 speaks most pointedly and clearly about them. Though they may commit all manner of sins here, as long as they do not sin against the Holy Ghost, they shall be brought back into Father's presence. You do not see this applying to just anyone, and certainly not everyone!

Shalom

So you believe these elect ones are resurrected beings or not?

[Kingdom of ZION]

I just listened to Elder Uchtdorf’s talk to the YSA from last night. He very specifically stated that there is ONE mortal probation. So who do you belive: KOZ, Alarias, Julie Rowe, The Remnant OR an ORDAINED apostle of Jesus Christ?

It’s all quite simple isn’t it?

I do not believe in Multiple Mortal Probations. Second Estate Beings come here but once. I do not believe in the doctrine that teaches you have unlimited 'another turn of the crank' or that you do it over and over again until you get it right!

I believe that there is a Doctrine called "Eternal Lives". It is in your scriptures if you care to look. The Elect come down here into hell to fulfill missions unto Father and His Son. They do not come here to get another chance (probation or Reprobation). They were chosen because they had already proven their valency. As they all have had their Calling and Election (not made sure as of yet), before they were ever born here, D&C 132 speaks most pointedly and clearly about them. Though they may commit all manner of sins here, as long as they do not sin against the Holy Ghost, they shall be brought back into Father's presence. You do not see this applying to just anyone, and certainly not everyone!

Shalom

So you believe these elect ones are resurrected beings or not?

Hi Sarah, No they have not received a resurrection. If they are recently killed and their body is not destroyed on the last day (under four days, they maybe raised from the grave as translated Beings to live on into the Millennial realm. If like the Two Witnesses (one of the 144,000), they were translated and killed, and their bodies are not destroyed, they can be raised unto life again, where they remain translated.

If their body is destroyed or their body has been dead over the set limitation of time, then they must be 'born again' into that kingdom. Some here believe in magic... I do not! They do not just pop out of the ground from the dust. All living things in this realm have 'shared matter', and particles that belong to many can not be restored to multiple beings, as well as plants, and animals.

The final Day of Judgement, after the Millennial realm, yes there will be Beings who are resurrected Telestial (those who's bodies are sired out of fornication in the little season where the adversary is loosed from the bottomless pit for a final time to tempt man). These are those who come forth in the Second Resurrection unto their damnation, and are sent to hell [the Telestial Kingdom]) forever. Those who sired those bodies and have failed the test to live Law of the Millennial realm, 'the Law of Chastity' in that day, shall remain Terrestrial, and in a second twinkling of an eye (as it is said), are resurrected unto that kingdom eternally (forever).

However, their are those whom are judged worthy (Elect), and ASK if they wish to continue their progression into the Celestial realm. They remain translated for the Eight Dispensation (a 1000 years of rest from all labors after the Millennial realm) upon this sphere (earth) with the Messiah and His fellows (family/friends). Then the time comes, and this is not revealed as to exactly how and where or long of time until such happens, but that they live in this realm as terrestrial and must eventually die and lay that body down, whereupon they are free to enter into a new Creation assigned them (one of five creations that come out of this creation), and are reborn into a Antediluvian (Pre-Diluvian) world of that newly Creation.

This decision is not a light and transient thing (at least for males), to decide to move forward into the Celestial realm. For if they remain Terrestrial, at least one is save in the presence of Yah, though you do not dwell with Him. You forfeit Posterity and companionship, and in a sense you fall from grace, but you remain...

For those males who choose to press on, it is made clear, that there is no going back, and there can be only one of two possible outcomes. One will either move on down the path of eternal progression until they offer up the 'Eternal Sacrifice' in righteousness, or they will fall short, turn away, and rebel against Father (wherein there is no forgiveness of such, and that path leads to disillusion (where nothing shall remain). Man's egos and drive for companionship are such that they will willingly risk disillusionment rather than safety and security without such things. Women on the other hand also have two possible outcomes, if they choose to move on into the Celestial realm. They will either live the required Law of the New and Everlasting Covenant of Celestial Marriage, or shall remain singular and separate, a servant unto those who are worth of the eternal weight and glory of such relations.

I hope this answer your questions, and brings a understanding and a perspective of things most debated about here.

Shalom

[Silver]

For those males who choose to press on, it is made clear, there is no going back, and there can be only one of two possible outcomes. One will move down the path of eternal progression until they offer the Eternal Sacrifice in righteousness, or they will fall short, turn away, and rebel against Father (where there is no forgiveness of such, and that path leads to disillusion (where nothing shall remain). Man's egos and drive for companionship are such that they will willingly risk disillusionment rather than safety and security without such things.

Women on the other hand also have two possible outcomes, if they choose to move on into the Celestial realm. They will either live the required Law of the New and Everlasting Covenant of Celestial Marriage, or shall remain singular and separate, a servant unto those who are worth of the eternal weight and glory of such relations.

I'm not sure if you told us what religion you favor. Do you mind sharing now?

[Elizabeth]

"In 1889, President Wilford Woodruff addressed the topic:

I have heard that in Zion there are some men who entertain the idea that they inherit the body and spirit of Moses, or Abraham, or David, or Noah, or somebody other than themselves. I hope none of you here indulge in anything of this kind, because it is a most foolish, nonsensical and false doctrine. You gaze upon a man who professes to have inherited the body or spirit of Moses, or any of those I have named, and I think you will conclude that his appearance does not indicate that such is the case; at any rate, it certainly has not improved him. Brother Woodruff, Brother Cannon, Brother Smith, Brother Lorenzo Snow, or any of the brethren, will never inherit anyone's body or spirit but their own, in time or in eternity, unless the devil gets into them. It is Satan who inspires men to believe in such absurd things. He delights in having any of the brethren entertain false ideas, no matter what they are. I tell you that whoever sees me in time or eternity will see Wilford Woodruff, not Noah, nor Abraham, nor Enoch. Every man has his own identity, and he never will lose that identity. Therefore, when you hear such doctrine as that advanced, do not believe it. There are a good many things Satan would like us to believe; but we must guard against these. (Deseret New Weekly, 38:822-24, Collected Discourses, 1:262-63, emphasis added.)

President George Q. Cannon, a member of the First Presidency taught:

That a belief in reincarnation should prevail among the Latter-day Saints seems strange for there is nothing in the Gospel, as taught in the Bible, in the Book of Mormon, in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants or in the teachings of inspired men, that furnishes the least foundation for such a conception. It is true that pre-existence is taught; but the pre-existence in which we believe is confined to our first estate. We are taught that our present life is our second estate, and this is a probation given unto us in which to gain experience and to be tried and purified to prepare us for our next estate. The teachings of men who have had a deep understanding concerning the purpose of our Great Creator in placing us here in this condition of existence show that this is the grand opportunity which is given to man—an opportunity which he must not fail to avail himself of as it is the only opportunity that he will have on the earth; his earthly existence is confined to one appearance in the flesh.

When a child comes forth, it possesses a tabernacle. That tabernacle is the house of its spirit, intimately associated with the spirit, separated, it is true, for a time by death, but designed to be re-united in the great hereafter. The Savior says that His disciples looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies to be a bondage…. We are taught that all holy beings looked forward with joyful anticipation to the time when their bodies and spirits will be re-united in the resurrection. They do not look forward to reincarnation or to another birth as a baby but to the union of their spirits and their bodies—the bodies that they possessed and in which they had passed through all the trials and temptations and vicissitudes incident to a mortal career. (Gospel Truth, 1:28)

Life Is Linear

One plain doctrine of the restored gospel is that life is linear. No recycling. We were created spiritually as sons and daughters of Heavenly Parents. We all existed in the premortal realms in a probationary atmosphere for millions, if not billions, of years. There we progressed until the moment came for us to be granted a brief but immensely important time on this earth (a "small moment" D&C 121:7).

Earth life was a continuation of our "probationary state" (Alma 12:24). Here we are to be "proven" (Abr. 3:25). When our time here is completed, death sends our spirits to dwell in the Spirit World until the resurrection. Brigham Young explained: "After the spirit leaves the body, it remains without a tabernacle in the spirit world until the Lord, by his law that he has ordained, brings to pass the resurrection of the dead" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.372). This is the Plan of Salvation.

A person may choose to believe the concept of "Multiple Mortal Probations" (or Buddhist reincarnation), but he or she should understand that it clearly contradicts the restored gospel as taught in the scriptures, by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and every other Church leader.

The doctrine of "Multiple Mortal Probations" presents many problems. The Doctrine and Covenants tells us that "the spirit of man is in the likeness of his person" (D&C 77:2). Consequently, a reincarnated person would be expected to look exactly the same during every mortal lifetime.

In addition, we are told that in the resurrection: "They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body" (D&C 88:28; italics added). Brigham Young gave details:

When the angel who holds the keys of the resurrection shall sound his trumpet, then the peculiar fundamental particles that organized our bodies here, if we do honor to them, though they be deposited in the depths of the sea, and though one particle is in the north, another in the south, another in the east, and another in the west, will be brought together again in the twinkling of an eye, and our spirits will take possession of them. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 372.)

If a spirit had inhabited numerous "natural bodies" during multiple probations on earth, which one of those bodies would he receive in the resurrection?

Alma taught plainly that there are no one returns to earth for a second probation after their initial mortal demise:

Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection - Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow....

[T]here is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works. (Alma 40:11-12,21; italics added.)

Joseph Smith explained: "I want to talk more of the relation of man to God. I will open your eyes in relation to the dead.... for all the spirits who have not obeyed the Gospel in the flesh must either obey it in the spirit or be damned." (History of the Church, 6:312.) If reincarnation or MMP were a true doctrine, unruly spirits could be channeled back to earth for another try. But life is linear. If spirits are disobedient "in the flesh," their only option is to "obey in the spirit or be damned."

Brigham Young also acknowledged that after death, our only chance for "schooling" is "in the spirit":

If a person is baptized for the remission of sins, and dies a short time thereafter, he is not prepared at once to enjoy a fulness of the glory promised to the faithful in the Gospel; for he must be schooled while in the spirit, in the other departments of the house of God, passing on from truth to truth, from intelligence to intelligence, until he is prepared to again receive his body and to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son. (Discourses of Brigham Young, pp. 378-379.)

John Taylor plainly taught that: "there is a place called ‘Paradise,’ to which the spirits of the dead go, awaiting the resurrection, and their reunion with the body" (The Government of God, Ch.5). No Church leader has ever taught that any of the spirits in the Spirit World are awaiting a second (or third, fourth or fifth etc.) opportunity to return to earth.

President Joseph F. Smith summarized the process saying:

It is true, all of us are clothed with mortality, but our spirits existed long before they took upon them this tabernacle that we now inhabit. When this body dies, the spirit does not die. The spirit is an immortal being, and when separated from the body takes its flight to the place prepared for it, and there awaits the resurrection of the body, when the spirit will return again and re-occupy this tabernacle which it occupied in this world. (Gospel Doctrine, p. 444; see also D&C 138)."

[Kingdom of ZION]

I'm not sure if you told us what religion you favor. Do you mind sharing now?

I have a few times over they years, post such upon these boards...
But I would like to ask you a question first: Why do you ask? Is it that it bugs you that I do not neatly fit into a box of yours? Do you need to know such, that you may judge whether I am reliable, creditable, acceptable? I think I have lived up to my posted Signature here:
A HERETIC to believers and a ZEALOT to nonbelievers!

For the benefit of others: I believe that Joseph Smith was a Lord's Anointed, and the Gospel he restored was from Yah. I am a follower of Yahshua, the Messiah, His Son. I believe the Torah was the only scripture that was ever dictated by Yah, letter for letter. I also study the Law and the Prophets, whether they are canonized or not by this or that church. Even the writings of Native American's hold a few things that I have found to be from Yah, but them is that not what the BoM is?

Shalom

[Spaced_Out]

We were reading these verses in Sunday School yesterday and it made me think of this thread.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

We see here that even the noble and great ones were spirits. It seems the only way this theory would work is if you believe that when your mortal life is over you can defer resurrection and remain a spirit. So lets say I live into the millennium, live to the age of a tree, and then am changed, does that mean (according the the mmp theory) that I could choose to be transformed into a spirit body again and not my resurrected body? What would I be doing as a spirit for 1 thousand years? Who is creating brand-new spirit bodies that will enter the 1st estate for the next round, and who is occupying the celestial world after the millennium?

Sarah: Thanks for your testimony, The same scripture was also read in our Sunday School, and I got a strong witness from the HG at the time that these things are true and we all came down to earth only ever having a spiritual body.

Some sections out of D&C 138 were read as well vs 16-17 that all the dead from Adam - to Jesus only got bodies after Jesus resurrection and that they were never to be separated from their bodies again.
Most importantly "The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits" were also in the preexistence only as spirits - and received their lesson for their mission on earth as spirits.. No previous mortal probation.

...

alaris: teaches he is on his 3 or 4th mortal probation, having been sealed to his wife again and again in mortality and make himself to be greater than all the prophets of the restoration.. He is indeed a wolf in sheep clothing doing his best to deceive and break down the Church of God. His response to you was disgusting - totally changing the topic an twisting and quoting a scripture in Hebrews on the resurrection that had nothing to do with your post.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

53 The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work,
54 Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world.
55 I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.
56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

[Silver]

I'm not sure if you told us what religion you favor. Do you mind sharing now?

I have a few times over they years, post such upon these boards...
But I would like to ask you a question first: Why do you ask? Is it that it bugs you that I do not neatly fit into a box of yours? Do you need to know such, that you may judge whether I am reliable, creditable, acceptable? I think I have lived up to my posted Signature here:
A HERETIC to believers and a ZEALOT to nonbelievers!

For the benefit of others: I believe that Joseph Smith was a Lord's Anointed, and the Gospel he restored was from Yah. I am a follower of Yahshua, the Messiah, His Son. I believe the Torah was the only scripture that was ever dictated by Yah, letter for letter. I also study the Law and the Prophets, whether they are canonized or not by this or that church. Even the writings of Native American's hold a few things that I have found to be from Yah, but them is that not what the BoM is?

Shalom

Why do you ask? Why do you ask back?
Is it that it bugs you that I do not neatly fit into a box of yours? No, I don't have any boxes. They take up so much space so I throw them away after every move. I was just thinking that if I ever start my own bizarre religion, I could hire you as my consultant.
Do you need to know such, that you may judge whether I am reliable, creditable, acceptable? No, it's self-evident that you are unreliable, uncreditable and unacceptable in your current state. I hope you someday comprehend the full significance and truth of the Gospel as
taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

[AI2.0]

"In 1889, President Wilford Woodruff addressed the topic:

I have heard that in Zion there are some men who entertain the idea that they inherit the body and spirit of Moses, or Abraham, or David, or Noah, or somebody other than themselves. I hope none of you here indulge in anything of this kind, because it is a most foolish, nonsensical and false doctrine. You gaze upon a man who professes to have inherited the body or spirit of Moses, or any of those I have named, and I think you will conclude that his appearance does not indicate that such is the case; at any rate, it certainly has not improved him. Brother Woodruff, Brother Cannon, Brother Smith, Brother Lorenzo Snow, or any of the brethren, will never inherit anyone's body or spirit but their own, in time or in eternity, unless the devil gets into them. It is Satan who inspires men to believe in such absurd things. He delights in having any of the brethren entertain false ideas, no matter what they are. I tell you that whoever sees me in time or eternity will see Wilford Woodruff, not Noah, nor Abraham, nor Enoch. Every man has his own identity, and he never will lose that identity. Therefore, when you hear such doctrine as that advanced, do not believe it. There are a good many things Satan would like us to believe; but we must guard against these. (Deseret New Weekly, 38:822-24, Collected Discourses, 1:262-63, emphasis added.)

President George Q. Cannon, a member of the First Presidency taught:

That a belief in reincarnation should prevail among the Latter-day Saints seems strange for there is nothing in the Gospel, as taught in the Bible, in the Book of Mormon, in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants or in the teachings of inspired men, that furnishes the least foundation for such a conception. It is true that pre-existence is taught; but the pre-existence in which we believe is confined to our first estate. We are taught that our present life is our second estate, and this is a probation given unto us in which to gain experience and to be tried and purified to prepare us for our next estate. The teachings of men who have had a deep understanding concerning the purpose of our Great Creator in placing us here in this condition of existence show that this is the grand opportunity which is given to man—an opportunity which he must not fail to avail himself of as it is the only opportunity that he will have on the earth; his earthly existence is confined to one appearance in the flesh.

When a child comes forth, it possesses a tabernacle. That tabernacle is the house of its spirit, intimately associated with the spirit, separated, it is true, for a time by death, but designed to be re-united in the great hereafter. The Savior says that His disciples looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies to be a bondage…. We are taught that all holy beings looked forward with joyful anticipation to the time when their bodies and spirits will be re-united in the resurrection. They do not look forward to reincarnation or to another birth as a baby but to the union of their spirits and their bodies—the bodies that they possessed and in which they had passed through all the trials and temptations and vicissitudes incident to a mortal career. (Gospel Truth, 1:28)

Life Is Linear

One plain doctrine of the restored gospel is that life is linear. No recycling. We were created spiritually as sons and daughters of Heavenly Parents. We all existed in the premortal realms in a probationary atmosphere for millions, if not billions, of years. There we progressed until the moment came for us to be granted a brief but immensely important time on this earth (a "small moment" D&C 121:7).

Earth life was a continuation of our "probationary state" (Alma 12:24). Here we are to be "proven" (Abr. 3:25). When our time here is completed, death sends our spirits to dwell in the Spirit World until the resurrection. Brigham Young explained: "After the spirit leaves the body, it remains without a tabernacle in the spirit world until the Lord, by his law that he has ordained, brings to pass the resurrection of the dead" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.372). This is the Plan of Salvation.

A person may choose to believe the concept of "Multiple Mortal Probations" (or Buddhist reincarnation), but he or she should understand that it clearly contradicts the restored gospel as taught in the scriptures, by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and every other Church leader.

The doctrine of "Multiple Mortal Probations" presents many problems. The Doctrine and Covenants tells us that "the spirit of man is in the likeness of his person" (D&C 77:2). Consequently, a reincarnated person would be expected to look exactly the same during every mortal lifetime.

In addition, we are told that in the resurrection: "They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body" (D&C 88:28; italics added). Brigham Young gave details:

When the angel who holds the keys of the resurrection shall sound his trumpet, then the peculiar fundamental particles that organized our bodies here, if we do honor to them, though they be deposited in the depths of the sea, and though one particle is in the north, another in the south, another in the east, and another in the west, will be brought together again in the twinkling of an eye, and our spirits will take possession of them. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 372.)

If a spirit had inhabited numerous "natural bodies" during multiple probations on earth, which one of those bodies would he receive in the resurrection?

Alma taught plainly that there are no one returns to earth for a second probation after their initial mortal demise:

Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection - Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow....

[T]here is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works. (Alma 40:11-12,21; italics added.)

Joseph Smith explained: "I want to talk more of the relation of man to God. I will open your eyes in relation to the dead.... for all the spirits who have not obeyed the Gospel in the flesh must either obey it in the spirit or be damned." (History of the Church, 6:312.) If reincarnation or MMP were a true doctrine, unruly spirits could be channeled back to earth for another try. But life is linear. If spirits are disobedient "in the flesh," their only option is to "obey in the spirit or be damned."

Brigham Young also acknowledged that after death, our only chance for "schooling" is "in the spirit":

If a person is baptized for the remission of sins, and dies a short time thereafter, he is not prepared at once to enjoy a fulness of the glory promised to the faithful in the Gospel; for he must be schooled while in the spirit, in the other departments of the house of God, passing on from truth to truth, from intelligence to intelligence, until he is prepared to again receive his body and to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son. (Discourses of Brigham Young, pp. 378-379.)

John Taylor plainly taught that: "there is a place called ‘Paradise,’ to which the spirits of the dead go, awaiting the resurrection, and their reunion with the body" (The Government of God, Ch.5). No Church leader has ever taught that any of the spirits in the Spirit World are awaiting a second (or third, fourth or fifth etc.) opportunity to return to earth.

President Joseph F. Smith summarized the process saying:

It is true, all of us are clothed with mortality, but our spirits existed long before they took upon them this tabernacle that we now inhabit. When this body dies, the spirit does not die. The spirit is an immortal being, and when separated from the body takes its flight to the place prepared for it, and there awaits the resurrection of the body, when the spirit will return again and re-occupy this tabernacle which it occupied in this world. (Gospel Doctrine, p. 444; see also D&C 138)."

Thank you for sharing these quotes, they are great and to me, it's obvious that they would have also condemned Alaris' theory of MMP.

Unfortunately, I expect these quotes won't make a dent in Alaris' views. He's already stated that he rejects the belief that men inhabit the bodies of their sons(apparently THAT's the only version of Reincarnation he thinks Joseph rejected) and he has separated out the word 'reincarnation' from Multiple Mortal Probations--somehow he doesn't recognize that MMP falls under the umbrella of Reincarnation, so he will be unmoved by the very strong statements by Pres. Woodruff and Elder Cannon.

The problem with trying to help him even consider he may be wrong is that, he'd have to admit that the revelations he's been receiving may come from a false source, and that would make all his revelations suspect. But it was worth a try.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Comments below in Blue:

I'm not sure if you told us what religion you favor. Do you mind sharing now?

I have a few times over they years, post such upon these boards...
But I would like to ask you a question first: Why do you ask?Is it that it bugs you that I do not neatly fit into a box of yours? Do you need to know such, that you may judge whether I am reliable, creditable, acceptable? I think I have lived up to my posted Signature here:
A HERETIC to believers and a ZEALOT to nonbelievers!

For the benefit of others: I believe that Joseph Smith was a Lord's Anointed, and the Gospel he restored was from Yah. I am a follower of Yahshua, the Messiah, His Son. I believe the Torah was the only scripture that was ever dictated by Yah, letter for letter. I also study the Law and the Prophets, whether they are canonized or not by this or that church. Even the writings of Native American's hold a few things that I have found to be from Yah, but them is that not what the BoM is?

Shalom

Why do you ask? Why do you ask back?

Because I want you to voice your unstated intent...


Is it that it bugs you that I do not neatly fit into a box of yours? No, I don't have any boxes. They take up so much space so I throw them away after every move. I was just thinking that if I ever start my own bizarre religion, I could hire you as my consultant.

As far as worshiping Yah, I do not do it for money, and I never ask anyone for such, that is Priestcraft!


Do you need to know such, that you may judge whether I am reliable, creditable, acceptable? No, it's self-evident that you are unreliable, uncreditable and unacceptable in your current state.

You are very predicable.

I hope you someday comprehend the full significance and truth of the Gospel as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

A more correct statement would be that I do comprehend the full significance and truth of the Gospel as taught by Joseph Smith, and I also comprehend the full significance and truth of what the Gentile Churches that have come through and after him, have done with and to that Gospel!

[Silver]

Comments below in Blue:

I'm not sure if you told us what religion you favor. Do you mind sharing now?

I have a few times over they years, post such upon these boards...
But I would like to ask you a question first: Why do you ask?Is it that it bugs you that I do not neatly fit into a box of yours? Do you need to know such, that you may judge whether I am reliable, creditable, acceptable? I think I have lived up to my posted Signature here:
A HERETIC to believers and a ZEALOT to nonbelievers!

For the benefit of others: I believe that Joseph Smith was a Lord's Anointed, and the Gospel he restored was from Yah. I am a follower of Yahshua, the Messiah, His Son. I believe the Torah was the only scripture that was ever dictated by Yah, letter for letter. I also study the Law and the Prophets, whether they are canonized or not by this or that church. Even the writings of Native American's hold a few things that I have found to be from Yah, but them is that not what the BoM is?

Shalom

Why do you ask? Why do you ask back?

Because I want you to voice your unstated intent...


Is it that it bugs you that I do not neatly fit into a box of yours? No, I don't have any boxes. They take up so much space so I throw them away after every move. I was just thinking that if I ever start my own bizarre religion, I could hire you as my consultant.

As far as worshiping Yah, I do not do it for money, and I never ask anyone for such, that is Priestcraft!


Do you need to know such, that you may judge whether I am reliable, creditable, acceptable? No, it's self-evident that you are unreliable, uncreditable and unacceptable in your current state.

You are very predicable.

I hope you someday comprehend the full significance and truth of the Gospel as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

A more correct statement would be that I do comprehend the full significance and truth of the Gospel as taught by Joseph Smith, and I also comprehend the full significance and truth of what the Gentile Churches that have come through and after him, have done with and to that Gospel!

If I'm so predictable, why didn't you write my answers for me in advance?

[Alaris]

We were reading these verses in Sunday School yesterday and it made me think of this thread.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

We see here that even the noble and great ones were spirits. It seems the only way this theory would work is if you believe that when your mortal life is over you can defer resurrection and remain a spirit. So lets say I live into the millennium, live to the age of a tree, and then am changed, does that mean (according the the mmp theory) that I could choose to be transformed into a spirit body again and not my resurrected body? What would I be doing as a spirit for 1 thousand years? Who is creating brand-new spirit bodies that will enter the 1st estate for the next round, and who is occupying the celestial world after the millennium?

Sarah: Thanks for your testimony, The same scripture was also read in our Sunday School, and I got a strong witness from the HG at the time that these things are true and we all came down to earth only ever having a spiritual body.

Some sections out of D&C 138 were read as well vs 16-17 that all the dead from Adam - to Jesus only got bodies after Jesus resurrection and that they were never to be separated from their bodies again.
Most importantly "The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits" were also in the preexistence only as spirits - and received their lesson for their mission on earth as spirits.. No previous mortal probation.

...

alaris: teaches he is on his 3 or 4th mortal probation, having been sealed to his wife again and again in mortality and make himself to be greater than all the prophets of the restoration.. He is indeed a wolf in sheep clothing doing his best to deceive and break down the Church of God. His response to you was disgusting - totally changing the topic an twisting and quoting a scripture in Hebrews on the resurrection that had nothing to do with your post.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

53 The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work,
54 Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world.
55 I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.
56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

I shared with Sarah my personal feelings and beliefs. The only disgusting aspects in this thread is the behavior of those who cannot abide my beliefs or the sharing of them without stooping to this base behavior. This opposition only reinforces my beliefs. We allow all men that same privelege. Let them worship how, where, or what they may.

The spirit of contention is not of God but of the devil.

Please keep name calling, condemning, twisting, etc There are only so many hours in the day and better me than someone else.

D&C 138 says the noble and great ones received their first lessons as spirits in the spirit world. That sure seems to contradict mmp doesn't it? Except we all start the same way.

I think I've seen enough of this interesting execution to Alma 12. I'll be happy to continue to engage anyone and everyone who wants to discuss or debate with civility.

Those who think the MMP belief is clearly heresy I respect your right to believe that way.

[Silver]

We were reading these verses in Sunday School yesterday and it made me think of this thread.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

We see here that even the noble and great ones were spirits. It seems the only way this theory would work is if you believe that when your mortal life is over you can defer resurrection and remain a spirit. So lets say I live into the millennium, live to the age of a tree, and then am changed, does that mean (according the the mmp theory) that I could choose to be transformed into a spirit body again and not my resurrected body? What would I be doing as a spirit for 1 thousand years? Who is creating brand-new spirit bodies that will enter the 1st estate for the next round, and who is occupying the celestial world after the millennium?

Sarah: Thanks for your testimony, The same scripture was also read in our Sunday School, and I got a strong witness from the HG at the time that these things are true and we all came down to earth only ever having a spiritual body.

Some sections out of D&C 138 were read as well vs 16-17 that all the dead from Adam - to Jesus only got bodies after Jesus resurrection and that they were never to be separated from their bodies again.
Most importantly "The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits" were also in the preexistence only as spirits - and received their lesson for their mission on earth as spirits.. No previous mortal probation.

...

alaris: teaches he is on his 3 or 4th mortal probation, having been sealed to his wife again and again in mortality and make himself to be greater than all the prophets of the restoration.. He is indeed a wolf in sheep clothing doing his best to deceive and break down the Church of God. His response to you was disgusting - totally changing the topic an twisting and quoting a scripture in Hebrews on the resurrection that had nothing to do with your post.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

53 The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work,
54 Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world.
55 I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.
56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

I shared with Sarah my personal feelings and beliefs. The only disgusting aspects in this thread is the behavior of those who cannot abide my beliefs or the sharing of them without stooping to this base behavior. This opposition only reinforces my beliefs. We allow all men that same privelege. Let them worship how, where, or what they may.

The spirit of contention is not of God but of the devil.

Please keep name calling, condemning, twisting, etc There are only so many hours in the day and better me than someone else.

D&C 138 says the noble and great ones received their first lessons as spirits in the spirit world. That sure seems to contradict mmp doesn't it? Except we all start the same way.

I think I've seen enough of this interesting execution to Alma 12. I'll be happy to continue to engage anyone and everyone who wants to discuss or debate with civility.

Those who think the MMP belief is clearly heresy I respect your right to believe that way.

You literally got your virtual tail whipped here yesterday by members of LDSFF along with a coup de grace delivered by President Uchtdorf and yet you persist in believing heretical nonsense. Consequences, alarisherem. I truly, truly feel sorry for your son who will be polluted by you.

[Kingdom of ZION]

You are very predicable.

If I'm so predictable, why didn't you write my answers for me in advance?

I did not say I am a seer! So it sounds like you are volunteering to allow me to put words in your mouth. I do not like people who do such to dead people... and I am sure you would disagree with what I said for you just as much as those who have pasted on, and have their words twisted by others.

But to say I know where you are coming from and I am not surprised at what you think and say, that does not take a rocket scientist.

[Sarah]

I just listened to Elder Uchtdorf’s talk to the YSA from last night. He very specifically stated that there is ONE mortal probation. So who do you belive: KOZ, Alarias, Julie Rowe, The Remnant OR an ORDAINED apostle of Jesus Christ?

It’s all quite simple isn’t it?

I do not believe in Multiple Mortal Probations. Second Estate Beings come here but once. I do not believe in the doctrine that teaches you have unlimited 'another turn of the crank' or that you do it over and over again until you get it right!

I believe that there is a Doctrine called "Eternal Lives". It is in your scriptures if you care to look. The Elect come down here into hell to fulfill missions unto Father and His Son. They do not come here to get another chance (probation or Reprobation). They were chosen because they had already proven their valency. As they all have had their Calling and Election (not made sure as of yet), before they were ever born here, D&C 132 speaks most pointedly and clearly about them. Though they may commit all manner of sins here, as long as they do not sin against the Holy Ghost, they shall be brought back into Father's presence. You do not see this applying to just anyone, and certainly not everyone!

Shalom

So you believe these elect ones are resurrected beings or not?

Hi Sarah, No they have not received a resurrection. If they are recently killed and their body is not destroyed on the last day (under four days, they maybe raised from the grave as translated Beings to live on into the Millennial realm. If like the Two Witnesses (one of the 144,000), they were translated and killed, and their bodies are not destroyed, they can be raised unto life again, where they remain translated.

If their body is destroyed or their body has been dead over the set limitation of time, then they must be 'born again' into that kingdom. Some here believe in magic... I do not! They do not just pop out of the ground from the dust. All living things in this realm have 'shared matter', and particles that belong to many can not be restored to multiple beings, as well as plants, and animals.

The final Day of Judgement, after the Millennial realm, yes there will be Beings who are resurrected Telestial (those who's bodies are sired out of fornication in the little season where the adversary is loosed from the bottomless pit for a final time to tempt man). These are those who come forth in the Second Resurrection unto their damnation, and are sent to hell [the Telestial Kingdom]) forever. Those who sired those bodies and have failed the test to live Law of the Millennial realm, 'the Law of Chastity' in that day, shall remain Terrestrial, and in a second twinkling of an eye (as it is said), are resurrected unto that kingdom eternally (forever).

However, their are those whom are judged worthy (Elect), and ASK if they wish to continue their progression into the Celestial realm. They remain translated for the Eight Dispensation (a 1000 years of rest from all labors after the Millennial realm) upon this sphere (earth) with the Messiah and His fellows (family/friends). Then the time comes, and this is not revealed as to exactly how and where or long of time until such happens, but that they live in this realm as terrestrial and must eventually die and lay that body down, whereupon they are free to enter into a new Creation assigned them (one of five creations that come out of this creation), and are reborn into a Antediluvian (Pre-Diluvian) world of that newly Creation.

This decision is not a light and transient thing (at least for males), to decide to move forward into the Celestial realm. For if they remain Terrestrial, at least one is save in the presence of Yah, though you do not dwell with Him. You forfeit Posterity and companionship, and in a sense you fall from grace, but you remain...

For those males who choose to press on, it is made clear, that there is no going back, and there can be only one of two possible outcomes. One will either move on down the path of eternal progression until they offer up the 'Eternal Sacrifice' in righteousness, or they will fall short, turn away, and rebel against Father (wherein there is no forgiveness of such, and that path leads to disillusion (where nothing shall remain). Man's egos and drive for companionship are such that they will willingly risk disillusionment rather than safety and security without such things. Women on the other hand also have two possible outcomes, if they choose to move on into the Celestial realm. They will either live the required Law of the New and Everlasting Covenant of Celestial Marriage, or shall remain singular and separate, a servant unto those who are worth of the eternal weight and glory of such relations.

I hope this answer your questions, and brings a understanding and a perspective of things most debated about here.

Shalom

You're claiming that someone who is dead can be raised into a translated being. You're claiming that those dammed FOREVER, and I assume you really mean forever, are those whose only sin was to have parents conceive them in fornication.

How can you say you believe in Joseph Smith but not believe that the Book of Mormon is not what he claimed - the word of God? Now the Torah is the only book from God?

[Silver]

You are very predicable.

If I'm so predictable, why didn't you write my answers for me in advance?

I did not say I am a seer! So it sounds like you are volunteering to allow me to put words in your mouth. I do not like people who do such to dead people... and I am sure you would disagree with what I said for you just as much as those who have pasted on, and have their words twisted by others.

But to say I know where you are coming from and I am not surprised at what you think and say, that does not take a rocket scientist.

Like moths to a naked incandescent bulb on the back porch...

[mirkwood]

The only disgusting aspects in this thread is the behavior of those who cannot abide my beliefs or the sharing of them without stooping to this base behavior. This opposition only reinforces my beliefs. We allow all men that same privelege. Let them worship how, where, or what they may.

We actually agree with you on the bolded/underlined part. What we are not going to let you do is preach a non LDS belief and attempt to pass it off as an LDS belief without challenge. But you already knew that.