Multiple Mortal Probations Article

[Charles7]

My thoughts on Eternal Lives

On the matter of multiple probations, it has been my understanding through personal revelation that we live many lives while hopefully progressing toward perfection, but once we receive the endowments of the temple, and honor them, then upon that death it is not necessary to return to this earth. Thus, the atonement takes on meaning and importance. At that time, we are able to enter the kingdom of paradise
However many do return from the paradise state for further progression. There is no end to progression, hence the eternal round.


Actually, there are four possibilities for those who enter the paradise state. The first is to simply remain there, enjoying the peace and beauty thereof. Secondly, they might enter the spirit prison such as a missionary preparing those who are ready to receive the work for the dead done in the physical temples. Third, they can continue progression by acting as guides or angels for the living. Lastly, some return to the earth in physical form to complete a great work or task. These are the great ones who walk among us.
I know this is not scripture and I am not suggesting or teaching it as such. It is, however, personal revelation and I know it to be true

[Kingdom of ZION]

Moreover, it doesn't matter if I'm contentious or not.

Really... so then the end justify the means in your book?
I am glad I follow the Messiah's book!

I like it when all the apostates attack me.

First off your the one doing the name calling here!

Oh please, if your trying to offend me, your going to have to know what your speaking about first... In the basic definition of 'Apostate' (you can look it up in any dictionary or on the web):, "An Apostate is One who has left what they once held to be true or embraced. By that definition, All LDS are Apostates! So big deal! But never mind, I do not want to confuse you with the facts!

SO... I am attacking you by asking you a question? You must be a real hot house flower!

[Spaced_Out]

Brigham Young explained how multiple resurrections work. He said:

Take, for instance, a grain of sand. You can not divide it so small that it can not be divided again - it is capable of infinite division. We know nothing about how many times it can e divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals, in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless.... Well how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable, and this same infinity is manifest through all the creations of God. We will operate here, in all the ordinances of the house of God which pertain to this side the vail, and those who pass beyond and secure to themselves a resurrection pertaining to the lives will go on and receive more and more, more and more, and will receive one after another until they are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. This idea is very consoling.
(JD 15:138)

So as Brigham explained, the lives in us our countless. We have been added upon again and again until we have reached the state we our currently in. And it is not yet over, we will be added upon again and again, passing through one round and then another and then another. Obtaining resurrection upon resurrection until we finally conquer death such as our Savior did.

This is hard doctrine for some, but if you search your heart you will so it must be so.

What a total blasphemous interpretation from BY it is absolutely disgusting. He is talking about our ability to have offspring - we can have infinite number of children. BY asks how many lives in a grain of corn - cant be counted as the seeds can grow and multiply and make more corn continuing through all eternity. BY then says through the ordinances of the temple (temple marriage) in the House of God (which is an ordinance that has to be performed in mortality (ie this side of the vale). Afterwards we pass on through the resurrection - we then go on and receive more and more offspring and have an eternal increase.......

Basically BY is saying after having received the ordinances in the temple and resurrection we go on and have eternal increase. NOT ETERNAL MORTAL PROBATION'S, what absolute rubbish. One passing on one resurrection but eternal increase....

Don't put words into BY mouth and say he was teaching MMP - BY probably gave 1,000 sermons on the resurrection that all contradict what you are teaching then you take one quote very obviously out of context and teach a new doctrine. You guys have no mind to understand no eye to see, no ear to hear just keep reworking things to suit your false mantra. No hones person can read that quote from BY and come up with MMP.............

[Spaced_Out]

I have told you I will be happy to admit I am wrong when a prophet - who has the sole authority to define doctrine - declares it false - or at the judgement bar - whichever happens first. If President Uchtdorf said that and it was an answer to your prayers - great! Pardon my incredulity but every single person who has chimed in on this thread and offered either scriptural or extra-scriptural evidence to refute MMP hasn't come anywhere near compelling. Otherwise, why would you be holding your breath for this answer to your prayers? What have you been praying for? My soul or being proven right?

alaris: again very dishonest. You continually say people must pray and the evil one invites people not to pray. You also continually say only a prophet of God can correct you as you have some higher knowledge or something.. People are very frustrated with your constant blaspheming - and pray that they can put this to an end once and for all. Now an apostle of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in answer to their prays.

WHAT do you do you mock and scorn their prays and make light of it.. Your soul has been proven wrong. An apostle of of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in line with church teachings and scriptures. You are also dishonest as we have shared many scriptures that prove without a doubt that there is no more mortal probation...

Why invite people to pray the scorn and mock and make light of an Apostle of the Lord. What give you the right to preach MMP is LDS doctrine when an Apostle teaches otherwise - do you think your right and authority exceeds that of the Apostle... You have nothing but lies and the cunning of the devil...

[Silver]

My thoughts on Eternal Lives

On the matter of multiple probations, it has been my understanding through personal revelation that we live many lives while hopefully progressing toward perfection, but once we receive the endowments of the temple, and honor them, then upon that death it is not necessary to return to this earth. Thus, the atonement takes on meaning and importance. At that time, we are able to enter the kingdom of paradise
However many do return from the paradise state for further progression. There is no end to progression, hence the eternal round.


Actually, there are four possibilities for those who enter the paradise state. The first is to simply remain there, enjoying the peace and beauty thereof. Secondly, they might enter the spirit prison such as a missionary preparing those who are ready to receive the work for the dead done in the physical temples. Third, they can continue progression by acting as guides or angels for the living. Lastly, some return to the earth in physical form to complete a great work or task. These are the great ones who walk among us.
I know this is not scripture and I am not suggesting or teaching it as such. It is, however, personal revelation and I know it to be true

Welcome to the discussion, Charles7. What's your religion?

[Silver]

Moreover, it doesn't matter if I'm contentious or not.

Really... so then the end justify the means in your book?
I am glad I follow the Messiah's book!

I like it when all the apostates attack me.

First off your the one doing the name calling here!

Oh please, if your trying to offend me, your going to have to know what your speaking about first... In the basic definition of 'Apostate' (you can look it up in any dictionary or on the web):, "An Apostate is One who has left what they once held to be true or embraced. By that definition, All LDS are Apostates! So big deal! But never mind, I do not want to confuse you with the facts!

SO... I am attacking you by asking you a question? You must be a real hot house flower!

There is a true religion on Earth. The Lord has appointed prophets and apostles. They are God's mouthpieces on Earth. If you teach anything contrary to what they teach, you are an apostate. That's not name-calling. It is merely fact.

[Silver]

Let's settle something, shall we?

Which is worse?
1. Being contentious and calling someone names, or...
2. Believing and teaching heresy after one has been made aware of the heretical nature of the belief.

[janderich]

Brigham Young explained how multiple resurrections work. He said:

Take, for instance, a grain of sand. You can not divide it so small that it can not be divided again - it is capable of infinite division. We know nothing about how many times it can e divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals, in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless.... Well how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable, and this same infinity is manifest through all the creations of God. We will operate here, in all the ordinances of the house of God which pertain to this side the vail, and those who pass beyond and secure to themselves a resurrection pertaining to the lives will go on and receive more and more, more and more, and will receive one after another until they are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. This idea is very consoling.
(JD 15:138)

So as Brigham explained, the lives in us our countless. We have been added upon again and again until we have reached the state we our currently in. And it is not yet over, we will be added upon again and again, passing through one round and then another and then another. Obtaining resurrection upon resurrection until we finally conquer death such as our Savior did.

This is hard doctrine for some, but if you search your heart you will so it must be so.

What a total blasphemous interpretation from BY it is absolutely disgusting. He is talking about our ability to have offspring - we can have infinite number of children. BY asks how many lives in a grain of corn - cant be counted as the seeds can grow and multiply and make more corn continuing through all eternity. BY then says through the ordinances of the temple (temple marriage) in the House of God (which is an ordinance that has to be performed in mortality (ie this side of the vale). Afterwards we pass on through the resurrection - we then go on and receive more and more offspring and have an eternal increase.......

Basically BY is saying after having received the ordinances in the temple and resurrection we go on and have eternal increase. NOT ETERNAL MORTAL PROBATION'S, what absolute rubbish. One passing on one resurrection but eternal increase....

Don't put words into BY mouth and say he was teaching MMP - BY probably gave 1,000 sermons on the resurrection that all contradict what you are teaching then you take one quote very obviously out of context and teach a new doctrine. You guys have no mind to understand no eye to see, no ear to hear just keep reworking things to suit your false mantra. No hones person can read that quote from BY and come up with MMP.............

I don't believe he is talking about eternal increase. For brevities sake I didn't provide the complete quote but let me share the middle section. Brigham says:

We know nothing about how many time it can be divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals,
in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless. To illustrate, you take a perfectly ripe kernel of corn - you will have some here perhaps in a few days - adn if you get a glass, it does not require a very powerful one, and you take the chit of this corn and open it, you behold distinctly a stalk of corn, in that chit, a perfectly grown stalk of corn, awith ears annd leaves on it, matured, out in blossom, - there is the tassel, there are the ears and there is the corn! Well, you get a stronger glass and divide agaain, and you can see that this very chit is the grandfather of corn! We take this scientific world this. Well, how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable...

Now then, it is clear here that he is talking about how many times the corn can be divided. He is not talking about how a corn can beget more corn. He has not mentioned that at all here.

I think perhaps it is worth while to provide a few more quotes on MMP. For instance Wilford Woodruff copied down Joseph's words which were spoken at a Lyceum in Nauvoo in 1941 (just before the King Follett sermon). Here is what Wilford Woodruff wrote:

Joseph the Seer taught the following principl that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the HHoly Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory (Book of Revelations, see https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryM ... IE11092999 and https://bycommonconsent.com/2017/10/03/ ... velations/

What makes this quote particularly interesting is the statement, "& so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory". So many who read the King Follett sermon want to say that there is some progression for a perfect being "Jesus" to become a God, but there is no such progression for us. But Joseph's quote here clarifies that we are part of the mix.

I'm out of time. Maybe latter I can provide more quotes from the early leaders on this topic.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Let's settle something, shall we?

Which is worse?
1. Being contentious and calling someone names, or...
2. Believing and teaching heresy after one has been made aware of the heretical nature of the belief.

I am not here trying to teach you a thing!

The problem here is you think your the judge!!! I think you would have loved to live in Spain in 1492!
Or for that matter, at the time of the Messiah in Jerusalem...

[Silver]

Let's settle something, shall we?

Which is worse?
1. Being contentious and calling someone names, or...
2. Believing and teaching heresy after one has been made aware of the heretical nature of the belief.

I am not here trying to teach you a thing!

The problem here is you think your the judge!!! I think you would have loved to live in Spain in 1492!
Or for that matter, at the time of the Messiah in Jerusalem...

Put your hands in the air and move away from the keyboard.

[DesertWonderer2]

Let's settle something, shall we?

Which is worse?
1. Being contentious and calling someone names, or...
2. Believing and teaching heresy after one has been made aware of the heretical nature of the belief.

Jesus both caused contention and called the apostate Jews names...I think you are on solid ground here Silver

[Silver]

Let's settle something, shall we?

Which is worse?
1. Being contentious and calling someone names, or...
2. Believing and teaching heresy after one has been made aware of the heretical nature of the belief.

Jesus both caused contention and called the apostate Jews names...I think you are on solid ground here Silver

I think a good word to describe the words and actions of our Savior was disrupt. He disrupted the falsehood that had settled upon the people of Israel, and in particular, among the Jews. The Sanhedrin was nearing full apostasy. That's the condition of alaris and others who support false ideas like MMP.

Look again at the very first post in this thread by our tender hero, alaris:
"Multiple Mortal Probations Article
Thanks
Postby alaris » 26 Dec 2017, 19:01

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... tions.html

Enjoy! Please feel free to comment with questions and even challenges. I just ask that the tone be respectful so we can keep the spirit of contention out of our discussions. Thank you."

In other words, alaris says: I'm going to write something with which you may not agree, but don't tell me that I'm wrong.

We know alaris is insecure in his beliefs because a few posts later, AI2.0 plainly lays out reasons why MMP is heretical. Well, alaris immediately, and falsely, charges her with contention. He invites "challenges" and then immediately breaks down when challenged.

And that has how this whole thread has gone on for almost 27,000 views and many, many pages until, in a very timely fashion, a literal apostle of God said, There is only one mortal experience.

How does alaris squirm out of his predicament? He calls it "compelling," as if he had a right to call it anything other than the word of God. alaris is bound by the chains of hell so securely that he can deny the words of an apostle. But Silver is the bad guy. Let's pause for a moment of silence, shall we, for the captive alaris.

[Alaris]

I have told you I will be happy to admit I am wrong when a prophet - who has the sole authority to define doctrine - declares it false - or at the judgement bar - whichever happens first. If President Uchtdorf said that and it was an answer to your prayers - great! Pardon my incredulity but every single person who has chimed in on this thread and offered either scriptural or extra-scriptural evidence to refute MMP hasn't come anywhere near compelling. Otherwise, why would you be holding your breath for this answer to your prayers? What have you been praying for? My soul or being proven right?

alaris: again very dishonest. You continually say people must pray and the evil one invites people not to pray. You also continually say only a prophet of God can correct you as you have some higher knowledge or something.. People are very frustrated with your constant blaspheming - and pray that they can put this to an end once and for all. Now an apostle of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in answer to their prays.

WHAT do you do you mock and scorn their prays and make light of it.. Your soul has been proven wrong. An apostle of of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in line with church teachings and scriptures. You are also dishonest as we have shared many scriptures that prove without a doubt that there is no more mortal probation...

Why invite people to pray the scorn and mock and make light of an Apostle of the Lord. What give you the right to preach MMP is LDS doctrine when an Apostle teaches otherwise - do you think your right and authority exceeds that of the Apostle... You have nothing but lies and the cunning of the devil...

I noticed the triple angry faces in your response to Janderich. Did you know that the Lord has taught us the spirit of contention of the devil and it is not His doctrine to stir the hearts up to anger but that such things should be done away? And now you've given more exposition on why prayer is a waste of time as well as More false accusations of dishonesty. These are the fruits of a dark spirit that can only hope to anger people, shame people, and scare people away from prayer.

There is no prophet or apostle who can say anything but that we can get on our knees and pray about it and receive our own confirmation. I realize MMP is a meaty doctrine. However the fruits of those who believe it are in stark contrast to those who vehemently, angrily, and frantically oppose it here.

The feigned shock at how anyone can believe in mmp after Elder Uchtdorfs youth talk is the real dishonesty. The scope and context of mmp is so vast that his comments can at the very least be seen in the scope and scale of one eternal round.

Dissenting opiners (seems nicer than naysayers) in this thread aren't all this way so I'll be focusing on those who understand that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't justify contention and certainly didn't instigate contention when He as our God and Judge pronounced woes on the true heretics. You cannot selectively choose to embrace contention at the expense of His gospel... And that command He gave to avoid it. What a sad place to be.

[Silver]

I have told you I will be happy to admit I am wrong when a prophet - who has the sole authority to define doctrine - declares it false - or at the judgement bar - whichever happens first. If President Uchtdorf said that and it was an answer to your prayers - great! Pardon my incredulity but every single person who has chimed in on this thread and offered either scriptural or extra-scriptural evidence to refute MMP hasn't come anywhere near compelling. Otherwise, why would you be holding your breath for this answer to your prayers? What have you been praying for? My soul or being proven right?

alaris: again very dishonest. You continually say people must pray and the evil one invites people not to pray. You also continually say only a prophet of God can correct you as you have some higher knowledge or something.. People are very frustrated with your constant blaspheming - and pray that they can put this to an end once and for all. Now an apostle of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in answer to their prays.

WHAT do you do you mock and scorn their prays and make light of it.. Your soul has been proven wrong. An apostle of of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in line with church teachings and scriptures. You are also dishonest as we have shared many scriptures that prove without a doubt that there is no more mortal probation...

Why invite people to pray the scorn and mock and make light of an Apostle of the Lord. What give you the right to preach MMP is LDS doctrine when an Apostle teaches otherwise - do you think your right and authority exceeds that of the Apostle... You have nothing but lies and the cunning of the devil...

I noticed the triple angry faces in your response to Janderich. Did you know that the Lord has taught us the spirit of contention of the devil and it is not His doctrine to stir the hearts up to anger but that such things should be done away? And now you've given more exposition on why prayer is a waste of time as well as More false accusations of dishonesty. These are the fruits of a dark spirit that can only hope to anger people, shame people, and scare people away from prayer.

There is no prophet or apostle who can say anything but that we can get on our knees and pray about it and receive our own confirmation. I realize MMP is a meaty doctrine. However the fruits of those who believe it are in stark contrast to those who vehemently, angrily, and frantically oppose it here.

The feigned shock at how anyone can believe in mmp after Elder Uchtdorfs youth talk is the real dishonesty. The scope and context of mmp is so vast that his comments can at the very least be seen in the scope and scale of one eternal round.

Dissenting opiners (seems nicer than naysayers) in this thread aren't all this way so I'll be focusing on those who understand that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't justify contention and certainly didn't instigate contention when He as our God and Judge pronounced woes on the true heretics. You cannot selectively choose to embrace contention at the expense of His gospel... And that command He gave to avoid it. What a sad place to be.

You're a slick one, alarisherem, but we are wise to your tricks.

I notice, again, that you've proved yourself a liar. You claimed yesterday that you would respond to Elizabeth's post later because you were busy. No response yet, but you've managed to post again your pernicious lies. I guess besides talking with your bishop, you also need to take a course on time management.

[Alaris]

"In 1889, President Wilford Woodruff addressed the topic:

I have heard that in Zion there are some men who entertain the idea that they inherit the body and spirit of Moses, or Abraham, or David, or Noah, or somebody other than themselves. I hope none of you here indulge in anything of this kind, because it is a most foolish, nonsensical and false doctrine. You gaze upon a man who professes to have inherited the body or spirit of Moses, or any of those I have named, and I think you will conclude that his appearance does not indicate that such is the case; at any rate, it certainly has not improved him. Brother Woodruff, Brother Cannon, Brother Smith, Brother Lorenzo Snow, or any of the brethren, will never inherit anyone's body or spirit but their own, in time or in eternity, unless the devil gets into them. It is Satan who inspires men to believe in such absurd things. He delights in having any of the brethren entertain false ideas, no matter what they are. I tell you that whoever sees me in time or eternity will see Wilford Woodruff, not Noah, nor Abraham, nor Enoch. Every man has his own identity, and he never will lose that identity. Therefore, when you hear such doctrine as that advanced, do not believe it. There are a good many things Satan would like us to believe; but we must guard against these. (Deseret New Weekly, 38:822-24, Collected Discourses, 1:262-63, emphasis added.)

This again is a specific type of transmigration and is actually similar to what Joseph Smith condemned (TPJS p. 104) - this time WW adds in inheriting the body and spirit of prophets.

Here is a quote from the same Wilford Woodruff that Janderich shared:

Joseph the Seer taught the following principl that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the HHoly Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory (Book of Revelations, see https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryM ... IE11092999 and https://bycommonconsent.com/2017/10/03/ ... velations/

This is why it is so essential to pray. You should never take a prophet's word alone on any doctrine that brings you to a crossroads. You must study it out and pray and discover for yourself.

“The things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out.”
— Joseph Smith Jr.

President George Q. Cannon, a member of the First Presidency taught:

That a belief in reincarnation should prevail among the Latter-day Saints seems strange for there is nothing in the Gospel, as taught in the Bible, in the Book of Mormon, in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants or in the teachings of inspired men, that furnishes the least foundation for such a conception. It is true that pre-existence is taught; but the pre-existence in which we believe is confined to our first estate. We are taught that our present life is our second estate, and this is a probation given unto us in which to gain experience and to be tried and purified to prepare us for our next estate. The teachings of men who have had a deep understanding concerning the purpose of our Great Creator in placing us here in this condition of existence show that this is the grand opportunity which is given to man—an opportunity which he must not fail to avail himself of as it is the only opportunity that he will have on the earth; his earthly existence is confined to one appearance in the flesh.

When a child comes forth, it possesses a tabernacle. That tabernacle is the house of its spirit, intimately associated with the spirit, separated, it is true, for a time by death, but designed to be re-united in the great hereafter. The Savior says that His disciples looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies to be a bondage…. We are taught that all holy beings looked forward with joyful anticipation to the time when their bodies and spirits will be re-united in the resurrection. They do not look forward to reincarnation or to another birth as a baby but to the union of their spirits and their bodies—the bodies that they possessed and in which they had passed through all the trials and temptations and vicissitudes incident to a mortal career. (Gospel Truth, 1:28)

The scope of this comment could be one eternal round as well. Though certainly possible, I find it hard to believe the Apostles would be unaware of this truth and all the teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, the temple endowment, and the scriptures that support it.

This truth is available to all through study, pondering, and prayer. Though we do not have all the machinations revealed as to how the process of eternal rounds works, we do have enough scriptural and prophetic evidence to conclude that it does. If Elder Cannon is referring to just this eternal round, then certainly this comment does not exclude traversing eternal rounds. The symbolism of partaking of the fruit to lose your immortal state to gain more knowledge would certainly account for this quote.

It is pride and arrogance that resolves we must have all the answers now and be able to synthesize every truth - it is humility and submission to realize we don't have all the answers now but to seek them and be open to being wrong in prior assumptions or conclusions. Again, this is why the spirit of contention is so dangerous - contention fosters more pride and stubbornness making us unteachable. Remember, Joseph Smith said it is better to be believing - that men are condemned for disbelief.

“When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.” ~ Joseph Smith

Life Is Linear

One plain doctrine of the restored gospel is that life is linear. No recycling. We were created spiritually as sons and daughters of Heavenly Parents. We all existed in the premortal realms in a probationary atmosphere for millions, if not billions, of years. There we progressed until the moment came for us to be granted a brief but immensely important time on this earth (a "small moment" D&C 121:7).

Earth life was a continuation of our "probationary state" (Alma 12:24). Here we are to be "proven" (Abr. 3:25). When our time here is completed, death sends our spirits to dwell in the Spirit World until the resurrection. Brigham Young explained: "After the spirit leaves the body, it remains without a tabernacle in the spirit world until the Lord, by his law that he has ordained, brings to pass the resurrection of the dead" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.372). This is the Plan of Salvation.

A person may choose to believe the concept of "Multiple Mortal Probations" (or Buddhist reincarnation), but he or she should understand that it clearly contradicts the restored gospel as taught in the scriptures, by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and every other Church leader.

The doctrine of "Multiple Mortal Probations" presents many problems. The Doctrine and Covenants tells us that "the spirit of man is in the likeness of his person" (D&C 77:2). Consequently, a reincarnated person would be expected to look exactly the same during every mortal lifetime.

In addition, we are told that in the resurrection: "They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body" (D&C 88:28; italics added). Brigham Young gave details:

When the angel who holds the keys of the resurrection shall sound his trumpet, then the peculiar fundamental particles that organized our bodies here, if we do honor to them, though they be deposited in the depths of the sea, and though one particle is in the north, another in the south, another in the east, and another in the west, will be brought together again in the twinkling of an eye, and our spirits will take possession of them. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 372.)

If a spirit had inhabited numerous "natural bodies" during multiple probations on earth, which one of those bodies would he receive in the resurrection?

Alma taught plainly that there are no one returns to earth for a second probation after their initial mortal demise:

Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection - Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow....

[T]here is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works. (Alma 40:11-12,21; italics added.)

Joseph Smith explained: "I want to talk more of the relation of man to God. I will open your eyes in relation to the dead.... for all the spirits who have not obeyed the Gospel in the flesh must either obey it in the spirit or be damned." (History of the Church, 6:312.) If reincarnation or MMP were a true doctrine, unruly spirits could be channeled back to earth for another try. But life is linear. If spirits are disobedient "in the flesh," their only option is to "obey in the spirit or be damned."

Brigham Young also acknowledged that after death, our only chance for "schooling" is "in the spirit":

If a person is baptized for the remission of sins, and dies a short time thereafter, he is not prepared at once to enjoy a fulness of the glory promised to the faithful in the Gospel; for he must be schooled while in the spirit, in the other departments of the house of God, passing on from truth to truth, from intelligence to intelligence, until he is prepared to again receive his body and to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son. (Discourses of Brigham Young, pp. 378-379.)

John Taylor plainly taught that: "there is a place called ‘Paradise,’ to which the spirits of the dead go, awaiting the resurrection, and their reunion with the body" (The Government of God, Ch.5). No Church leader has ever taught that any of the spirits in the Spirit World are awaiting a second (or third, fourth or fifth etc.) opportunity to return to earth.

President Joseph F. Smith summarized the process saying:

It is true, all of us are clothed with mortality, but our spirits existed long before they took upon them this tabernacle that we now inhabit. When this body dies, the spirit does not die. The spirit is an immortal being, and when separated from the body takes its flight to the place prepared for it, and there awaits the resurrection of the body, when the spirit will return again and re-occupy this tabernacle which it occupied in this world. (Gospel Doctrine, p. 444; see also D&C 138)."

This appears to be a quote from someone's website analyzing James Harmstrom of a different church. If you cited that, I must have missed it. None of these scriptures or quotes from prophets exclude MMP. In fact, I bolded Brigham Young's quote above that the author assumed excludes the possiblity of MMP but actually reinforces it as BY's quote, unsurprisingly, fits right within the King Follet Sermon. To me, his comment is referencing Joseph Smith's teaching that we must proceed from grace to grace and from exaltation to exaltation until we attain to the resurrection of the dead and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. We have to continue to receive light and glory until we can physically exist in that level of glory that Joseph Smith calls "everlasting burnings." If you believe this process can happen to a child who dies without experiencing mortality, well I totally understand why you believe that and I respect it. However, I know what I know and I don't know what I don't know. I have studied this topic out for years, and the Lord has seen fit in His infinite mercy to make this truth known to me. He has permitted me to share my thoughts online. I have no problem saying "I don't know" and why quotes from George Q Cannon and lines taken out of a youth talk by Elder Uchtdorf don't shake me in the slightest--actually I can't say all the reasons why. 0:)

I think a good analogy here is faith and works. Many, if not most, baptists believe that works are unnecessary to salvation, and that works are only a fruit of those who are saved the moment they confess Christ. They take all the scriptures in the Bible that reference grace that seem to exclude works and ignore all the references to works. That is what is happening here in this thread. There are a lot of quotes and scriptures that seem to exclude MMP - except they don't! There are a lot of quotes and scriptures that reference MMP and eternal lives. I don't know all the machinations ... yet ... but I do know MMP is true.

[Silver]

Jacob 7:
1 And now it came to pass after some years had passed away, there came a man among the people of Nephi, whose name was Sherem.

2 And it came to pass that he began to preach among the people, and to declare unto them that there should be no Christ. And he preached many things which were flattering unto the people; and this he did that he might overthrow the doctrine of Christ.

3 And he labored diligently that he might lead away the hearts of the people, insomuch that he did lead away many hearts; and he knowing that I, Jacob, had faith in Christ who should come, he sought much opportunity that he might come unto me.

4 And he was learned, that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people; wherefore, he could use much flattery, and much power of speech, according to the power of the devil.

5 And he had hope to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many revelations and the many things which I had seen concerning these things; for I truly had seen angels, and they had ministered unto me. And also, I had heard the voice of the Lord speaking unto me in very word, from time to time; wherefore, I could not be shaken.

[Contemplator]

You may, or may not, find this relevant.

A friend and I were having a conversation about the resurrection. He had studied the relevant scriptures and the teachings of modern prophets. I had also studied those same sources. He had felt the spirit testify to truths when studying those sources of truth, and so had I. Yet, we disagreed on a particular detail relative to the topic of resurrection. In fact, we started to debate in a manner that was becoming contentious. Not surprisingly, we did not learn much during a contentious discussion. Rather, we each more firmly defended our prior beliefs and questioned each others ability to be guided by the spirit.

Then, a scripture came up that neither of us could quite remember in detail. So, we read it together and discovered that we were both somewhat right, and somewhat wrong, in our prior beliefs. Sure enough, the spirit had testified to truth, but we had each bundled our own ideas into what the spirit had certified. Once we were humble, and unified, enough to learn we each had our understanding refined. And, a long friendship also resulted.

What does it feel like to be wrong? Just like being right! It is not being wrong that feels bad, it discovering that when you felt you were right you were actually wrong. So, we defend against finding out we are wrong. We:

1. Assume the other person does not know what we know (and throw more quotes at them)
2. If that does not work, we assume they don't understand the quotes as well as we do (and preach at them)
3. If that does not work, we assume they are evil (and condemn them)

The point is, just because you felt the spirit, or a particular authority said something, does not mean you have fully understood it. We learn when we are open to our understanding being refined and expanded.

Thank you for the discussion on these pages. There has been much good information discussed.

[inho]

"In 1889, President Wilford Woodruff addressed the topic:

I have heard that in Zion there are some men who entertain the idea that they inherit the body and spirit of Moses, or Abraham, or David, or Noah, or somebody other than themselves. I hope none of you here indulge in anything of this kind, because it is a most foolish, nonsensical and false doctrine. You gaze upon a man who professes to have inherited the body or spirit of Moses, or any of those I have named, and I think you will conclude that his appearance does not indicate that such is the case; at any rate, it certainly has not improved him. Brother Woodruff, Brother Cannon, Brother Smith, Brother Lorenzo Snow, or any of the brethren, will never inherit anyone's body or spirit but their own, in time or in eternity, unless the devil gets into them. It is Satan who inspires men to believe in such absurd things. He delights in having any of the brethren entertain false ideas, no matter what they are. I tell you that whoever sees me in time or eternity will see Wilford Woodruff, not Noah, nor Abraham, nor Enoch. Every man has his own identity, and he never will lose that identity. Therefore, when you hear such doctrine as that advanced, do not believe it. There are a good many things Satan would like us to believe; but we must guard against these. (Deseret New Weekly, 38:822-24, Collected Discourses, 1:262-63, emphasis added.)

This again is a specific type of transmigration and is actually similar to what Joseph Smith condemned (TPJS p. 104) - this time WW adds in inheriting the body and spirit of prophets.

I don't see the difference. Earlier you explained the transmigration of souls this way:

I forgot to address your "transmigration of souls" comment. If you look up the Joseph Smith quote, he's referring to a very specific doctrine where the souls of the fathers actually inhabit the souls of the sons iirc. So basically, you'd have all your fathers spirits crammed into your body. If I remember that incorrectly, it's certainly some very specific doctrine that is unlike MMP that Joseph Smith declares false.

D&C 107:3 Before his day it was called the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.
4 But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church, in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek Priesthood.

If Melchizedek was Christ in an earlier probation where He had not yet worked out the Atonement then it would still be named after Him but after a name that is less sacred? "The Jesus Christ Priesthood" does seem a bit wrong, doesn't it? The name of Jesus Christ is sacred for that is the name whereby He worked out our salvation.

Moreover, if Melchizedek is Christ, then there are so many layers of meaning unlocked by understanding why the Priesthood is named after an earlier mortal probation of Christ--THAT is the order we join and follow through to completion "the same as all Gods before us" have done. Otherwise why not name the priesthood after another great high priest--one whose story we know? There is truth yet to be unfolded about Melchizedek that also helps unlock understanding this Priesthood and this Order.

If Jesus could have been Melchizedek, why can't the people WW is addressing have been Moses, Abraham or Noah?

[Silver]

You may, or may not, find this relevant.

A friend and I were having a conversation about the resurrection. He had studied the relevant scriptures and the teachings of modern prophets. I had also studied those same sources. He had felt the spirit testify to truths when studying those sources of truth, and so had I. Yet, we disagreed on a particular detail relative to the topic of resurrection. In fact, we started to debate in a manner that was becoming contentious. Not surprisingly, we did not learn much during a contentious discussion. Rather, we each more firmly defended our prior beliefs and questioned each others ability to be guided by the spirit.

Then, a scripture came up that neither of us could quite remember in detail. So, we read it together and discovered that we were both somewhat right, and somewhat wrong, in our prior beliefs. Sure enough, the spirit had testified to truth, but we had each bundled our own ideas into what the spirit had certified. Once we were humble, and unified, enough to learn we each had our understanding refined. And, a long friendship also resulted.

What does it feel like to be wrong? Just like being right! It is not being wrong that feels bad, it discovering that when you felt you were right you were actually wrong. So, we defend against finding out we are wrong. We:

1. Assume the other person does not know what we know (and throw more quotes at them)
2. If that does not work, we assume they don't understand the quotes as well as we do (and preach at them)
3. If that does not work, we assume they are evil (and condemn them)

The point is, just because you felt the spirit, or a particular authority said something, does not mean you have fully understood it. We learn when we are open to our understanding being refined and expanded.

Thank you for the discussion on these pages. There has been much good information discussed.

Some good comments, and I thank you for them. If you would like to increase your understanding then go back and read the earliest posts by alaris. He is wrong on more than just MMP.

[Spaced_Out]

I don't believe he is talking about eternal increase. For brevities sake I didn't provide the complete quote but let me share the middle section. Brigham says:

We know nothing about how many time it can be divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals,
in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless. To illustrate, you take a perfectly ripe kernel of corn - you will have some here perhaps in a few days - adn if you get a glass, it does not require a very powerful one, and you take the chit of this corn and open it, you behold distinctly a stalk of corn, in that chit, a perfectly grown stalk of corn, awith ears annd leaves on it, matured, out in blossom, - there is the tassel, there are the ears and there is the corn! Well, you get a stronger glass and divide agaain, and you can see that this very chit is the grandfather of corn! We take this scientific world this. Well, how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable...

Now then, it is clear here that he is talking about how many times the corn can be divided. He is not talking about how a corn can beget more corn. He has not mentioned that at all here.

I think perhaps it is worth while to provide a few more quotes on MMP. For instance Wilford Woodruff copied down Joseph's words which were spoken at a Lyceum in Nauvoo in 1941 (just before the King Follett sermon). Here is what Wilford Woodruff wrote:

Joseph the Seer taught the following principl that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the HHoly Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory (Book of Revelations, see https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryM ... IE11092999 and https://bycommonconsent.com/2017/10/03/ ... velations/

What makes this quote particularly interesting is the statement, "& so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory". So many who read the King Follett sermon want to say that there is some progression for a perfect being "Jesus" to become a God, but there is no such progression for us. But Joseph's quote here clarifies that we are part of the mix.

I'm out of time. Maybe latter I can provide more quotes from the early leaders on this topic.

When we die and are resurrected we gain eternal life not eternal lives.. We gain immortality and if righteous eternal life through the resurrection - which is the greatest gift of God. A seed can divide itself into eternal lives... No a seed is potential for offspring.
NO it is most definitely talking about eternal increase that is why BY references the temple ordinances then a singular resurrection then eternal increase - unless one has lying heart it is not possible to interpret it any other way.

Gods entire purpose is immortality and eternal life of Man. Immortality means no more mortality and death, eternal life is no more separation from God. You cant change the definition of the words.


immortality
noun
the ability to live forever; eternal life.

https://www.lds.org/topics/resurrection?lang=eng
Because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, we are subject to physical death, which is the separation of the spirit from the body. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death (see 1 Corinthians 15:22). Resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit with the body in an immortal state, no longer subject to disease or death.

[Silver]

Matthew 13:
24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

It's really no surprise that there are tares growing up in the midst of the wheat. After all, an enemy hath done this.

So the big issue is which side in this discussion is the wheat and which is the tare. To be the wheat, we have to be in concert with the living prophets and apostles. For the tares to be right, they have to claim, at least in their hearts, that the current leadership of the Church has gone astray. Since that has not happened, the tares -- the MMP supporters -- are wrong. It's not complicated at all.

Speaking for myself, I have a testimony that the current members of the First Presidency and the 10 members of the Quorum of the 12 are holy men, called by God. Therefore, when one of them says there is but one mortal experience, I'm taking that statement to the bank. The tares will justify their apostasy by making excuses about what a living apostle has just said. No man is so blind as he who will not see.

[Spaced_Out]

I have told you I will be happy to admit I am wrong when a prophet - who has the sole authority to define doctrine - declares it false - or at the judgement bar - whichever happens first. If President Uchtdorf said that and it was an answer to your prayers - great! Pardon my incredulity but every single person who has chimed in on this thread and offered either scriptural or extra-scriptural evidence to refute MMP hasn't come anywhere near compelling. Otherwise, why would you be holding your breath for this answer to your prayers? What have you been praying for? My soul or being proven right?

alaris: again very dishonest. You continually say people must pray and the evil one invites people not to pray. You also continually say only a prophet of God can correct you as you have some higher knowledge or something.. People are very frustrated with your constant blaspheming - and pray that they can put this to an end once and for all. Now an apostle of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in answer to their prays.

WHAT do you do you mock and scorn their prays and make light of it.. Your soul has been proven wrong. An apostle of of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in line with church teachings and scriptures. You are also dishonest as we have shared many scriptures that prove without a doubt that there is no more mortal probation...

Why invite people to pray the scorn and mock and make light of an Apostle of the Lord. What give you the right to preach MMP is LDS doctrine when an Apostle teaches otherwise - do you think your right and authority exceeds that of the Apostle... You have nothing but lies and the cunning of the devil...

I noticed the triple angry faces in your response to Janderich. Did you know that the Lord has taught us the spirit of contention of the devil and it is not His doctrine to stir the hearts up to anger but that such things should be done away? And now you've given more exposition on why prayer is a waste of time as well as More false accusations of dishonesty. These are the fruits of a dark spirit that can only hope to anger people, shame people, and scare people away from prayer.

There is no prophet or apostle who can say anything but that we can get on our knees and pray about it and receive our own confirmation. I realize MMP is a meaty doctrine. However the fruits of those who believe it are in stark contrast to those who vehemently, angrily, and frantically oppose it here.

The feigned shock at how anyone can believe in mmp after Elder Uchtdorfs youth talk is the real dishonesty. The scope and context of mmp is so vast that his comments can at the very least be seen in the scope and scale of one eternal round.

Dissenting opiners (seems nicer than naysayers) in this thread aren't all this way so I'll be focusing on those who understand that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't justify contention and certainly didn't instigate contention when He as our God and Judge pronounced woes on the true heretics. You cannot selectively choose to embrace contention at the expense of His gospel... And that command He gave to avoid it. What a sad place to be.

One needs to be a defender of the faith or valiant in their testimony of Christ a deciding factor to those entering the celestial kingdom. Calling out the Woolf in sheep clothing is and standing as a watchman on the tower is also a key requirement of salvation. Your sheeps clothing has fallen off and all you can say is you are contentious therefore you are wrong. Any person who teaches against your facilities is called contentious and you mock and deride them. - Only you can receive revelation as any person giving testimony is derided if it does not suit your false doctrine..

[Alaris]

"In 1889, President Wilford Woodruff addressed the topic:

I have heard that in Zion there are some men who entertain the idea that they inherit the body and spirit of Moses, or Abraham, or David, or Noah, or somebody other than themselves. I hope none of you here indulge in anything of this kind, because it is a most foolish, nonsensical and false doctrine. You gaze upon a man who professes to have inherited the body or spirit of Moses, or any of those I have named, and I think you will conclude that his appearance does not indicate that such is the case; at any rate, it certainly has not improved him. Brother Woodruff, Brother Cannon, Brother Smith, Brother Lorenzo Snow, or any of the brethren, will never inherit anyone's body or spirit but their own, in time or in eternity, unless the devil gets into them. It is Satan who inspires men to believe in such absurd things. He delights in having any of the brethren entertain false ideas, no matter what they are. I tell you that whoever sees me in time or eternity will see Wilford Woodruff, not Noah, nor Abraham, nor Enoch. Every man has his own identity, and he never will lose that identity. Therefore, when you hear such doctrine as that advanced, do not believe it. There are a good many things Satan would like us to believe; but we must guard against these. (Deseret New Weekly, 38:822-24, Collected Discourses, 1:262-63, emphasis added.)

This again is a specific type of transmigration and is actually similar to what Joseph Smith condemned (TPJS p. 104) - this time WW adds in inheriting the body and spirit of prophets.

I don't see the difference. Earlier you explained the transmigration of souls this way:

I forgot to address your "transmigration of souls" comment. If you look up the Joseph Smith quote, he's referring to a very specific doctrine where the souls of the fathers actually inhabit the souls of the sons iirc. So basically, you'd have all your fathers spirits crammed into your body. If I remember that incorrectly, it's certainly some very specific doctrine that is unlike MMP that Joseph Smith declares false.

D&C 107:3 Before his day it was called the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.
4 But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church, in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek Priesthood.

If Melchizedek was Christ in an earlier probation where He had not yet worked out the Atonement then it would still be named after Him but after a name that is less sacred? "The Jesus Christ Priesthood" does seem a bit wrong, doesn't it? The name of Jesus Christ is sacred for that is the name whereby He worked out our salvation.

Moreover, if Melchizedek is Christ, then there are so many layers of meaning unlocked by understanding why the Priesthood is named after an earlier mortal probation of Christ--THAT is the order we join and follow through to completion "the same as all Gods before us" have done. Otherwise why not name the priesthood after another great high priest--one whose story we know? There is truth yet to be unfolded about Melchizedek that also helps unlock understanding this Priesthood and this Order.

If Jesus could have been Melchizedek, why can't the people WW is addressing have been Moses, Abraham or Noah?

Great question. First, take into consideration this is not a prophet who is the only one who may define doctrine. Second, we don't have the machinations revealed - there is so little revealed about the premortal life and even the postmortal life. Why? We go to the temple for higher learning where everything is extremely symbolic. Why? Third, could such machinations reveal that you get one mortal probation only per eternal round unless you are a the level of Son or Archangel or whatever? Absolutely.

This is why I included the quote from Joseph Smith about the difference between believing and unbelieving and why the latter is the one that results in condemnation. I appreciate your candor inho and your civility, but with so little revealed it is pure folly to seek the mysteries from a standing of unbelief as Joseph Smith puts it.

Like Janderich said, I too am open to being wrong in any and all dotted connections I make. Those who seek these mysteries cannot do so from a standpoint of trying to set the limits and walls and seek to exclude the possibility of MMP being true without ever having followed the model of seek, ponder, and pray. The starting point of most of the dissension in this thread is one of "can't be" followed by a search for scriptures and quotes that fill a confirmation bias in what can't be. I'm not lumping every dissenting opinion in here, but it certainly is a commonality and that attitude cannot exist simultaneously with the recipe of seeking. That is why several scriptures point out the truth that those who harden their hards and say we have enough are doomed to - not only stagnation - but both a loss of knowledge as well as a binding to the adversary that results in chains at some point. Doesn't that help explain the Internet Troll phenomena in general? Poor Internet Trolls are stuck looking for opportunities to antagonize people by the spirit of contention because they are now bound to that spirit. Whether you say "we have enough" or "I know enough" already with the gospel - or any subect be it car forums or gardening forum - those trolls who linger looking to elevate themselves at someone else's expense are bound to that same spirit. It's just extremely sad to see LDS bound to that spirit who are stuck mocking and condeming and belittling, etc. etc. - all the while using scriptures and the Savior Himself to justify such deplorable behavior. But I digress ...

If I may be so bold as to speak on behalf of abijah and janderich and others who are LDS who believe MMP, our starting point is one of seeking and willing to be wrong in order to discover what is true. And as you seek the mysteries - as you uncover them line upon line there will be more questions than answers - in fact there will always be new questions until that perfect day. And, just as President Uchtdorf put it in his recent talk - would you have it any other way? Would you want to shortcut this beautiful process of learning and unveiling and uncovering truth?

There were certainly moments when I received just a word or a few words - by that still small voice - that were extremely difficult for me to accept. One truth was unveiled to me that took me about 2 years to accept, and I don't even know whether I'm all the way there yet! This is also why I don't condemn anyone for not believing MMP and why I stick to the fruits of those who oppose it most vehemently. You will never be able to accomplish the Lord's will by the devil's doctrine. I am just sharing what I have learned and ask others to seek for themselves and pray on it.

[Alaris]

I have told you I will be happy to admit I am wrong when a prophet - who has the sole authority to define doctrine - declares it false - or at the judgement bar - whichever happens first. If President Uchtdorf said that and it was an answer to your prayers - great! Pardon my incredulity but every single person who has chimed in on this thread and offered either scriptural or extra-scriptural evidence to refute MMP hasn't come anywhere near compelling. Otherwise, why would you be holding your breath for this answer to your prayers? What have you been praying for? My soul or being proven right?

alaris: again very dishonest. You continually say people must pray and the evil one invites people not to pray. You also continually say only a prophet of God can correct you as you have some higher knowledge or something.. People are very frustrated with your constant blaspheming - and pray that they can put this to an end once and for all. Now an apostle of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in answer to their prays.

WHAT do you do you mock and scorn their prays and make light of it.. Your soul has been proven wrong. An apostle of of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in line with church teachings and scriptures. You are also dishonest as we have shared many scriptures that prove without a doubt that there is no more mortal probation...

Why invite people to pray the scorn and mock and make light of an Apostle of the Lord. What give you the right to preach MMP is LDS doctrine when an Apostle teaches otherwise - do you think your right and authority exceeds that of the Apostle... You have nothing but lies and the cunning of the devil...

I noticed the triple angry faces in your response to Janderich. Did you know that the Lord has taught us the spirit of contention of the devil and it is not His doctrine to stir the hearts up to anger but that such things should be done away? And now you've given more exposition on why prayer is a waste of time as well as More false accusations of dishonesty. These are the fruits of a dark spirit that can only hope to anger people, shame people, and scare people away from prayer.

There is no prophet or apostle who can say anything but that we can get on our knees and pray about it and receive our own confirmation. I realize MMP is a meaty doctrine. However the fruits of those who believe it are in stark contrast to those who vehemently, angrily, and frantically oppose it here.

The feigned shock at how anyone can believe in mmp after Elder Uchtdorfs youth talk is the real dishonesty. The scope and context of mmp is so vast that his comments can at the very least be seen in the scope and scale of one eternal round.

Dissenting opiners (seems nicer than naysayers) in this thread aren't all this way so I'll be focusing on those who understand that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't justify contention and certainly didn't instigate contention when He as our God and Judge pronounced woes on the true heretics. You cannot selectively choose to embrace contention at the expense of His gospel... And that command He gave to avoid it. What a sad place to be.

One needs to be a defender of the faith or valiant in their testimony of Christ a deciding factor to those entering the celestial kingdom. Calling out the Woolf in sheep clothing is and standing as a watchman on the tower is also a key requirement of salvation. Your sheeps clothing has fallen off and all you can say is you are contentious therefore you are wrong. Any person who teaches against your facilities is called contentious and you mock and deride them. - Only you can receive revelation as any person giving testimony is derided if it does not suit your false doctrine..

Alright Spaced_Out. For the sake of our positive interactions we have had, I'll give you one last chance as well to engage in a civil, respectful debate. If you can stick to the substance and drop these condemnations and stop misstating me, I'll be happy to continue this conversation. You do not hold any keys that I do not hold myself brother. You can call me a wolf, but to what end? This is one reason why I chose to remain anonymous on my blog. Can there be vainglory if I am anonymous? You can see on my blog I haven't monetized it. I am not justifying polygamy, and I'm certainly not condoning procrastinating the day of your repentance via MMP.

Not coincidentally, another reason I chose to remain anonymous is I knew that these truths would be vehemently opposed as truth always is. Given all the ridiculous attacks on my integrity and character in this thread have certainly reinforced my decision. What's next? Death threats? That is certainly the same spirit that stirs people into a frenzy of anger.

Alma to Korihor, an antichrist:

Alma 30:32 Now Alma said unto him: Thou knowest that we do not glut ourselves upon the labors of this people; for behold I have labored even from the commencement of the reign of the judges until now, with mine own hands for my support, notwithstanding my many travels round about the land to declare the word of God unto my people.
33 And notwithstanding the many labors which I have performed in the church, I have never received so much as even one senine for my labor; neither has any of my brethren, save it were in the judgment-seat; and then we have received only according to law for our time.
34 And now, if we do not receive anything for our labors in the church, what doth it profit us to labor in the church save it were to declare the truth, that we may have rejoicings in the joy of our brethren?
35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that causes such joy in their hearts?

Like Alma, I have no other object than sharing what I am permitted to share to experience joy with my brothers and sisters who see eye to eye. Never do I ask anyone to take my word for anything I have written. Pray.

If you read my seven levels articles, you'll see that each level is an important rung on that ladder. We know more work is to be done towards working out our own exaltation beyond the veil.

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268).

Let's say for the sake of argument there are 100 additional steps that must be taken towards exaltation beyond this life. Whether those 100 steps are taken in the spirit, in a resurrected body, or in another mortal body beyond this life does this factor make any step in the process of becoming a God more or less essential? Of course not.

Those who have chimed in for MMP in this thread have indicated - as I - that this fruit is delicious and deepens my testimony and increases my desire to become like Christ. I know with a perfect knowledge therefore that it is sent forth by the gift and power of Christ.

Moroni 7:16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

[Silver]

Alma to Korihor, an antichrist:

Alma 30:32 Now Alma said unto him: Thou knowest that we do not glut ourselves upon the labors of this people; for behold I have labored even from the commencement of the reign of the judges until now, with mine own hands for my support, notwithstanding my many travels round about the land to declare the word of God unto my people.
33 And notwithstanding the many labors which I have performed in the church, I have never received so much as even one senine for my labor; neither has any of my brethren, save it were in the judgment-seat; and then we have received only according to law for our time.
34 And now, if we do not receive anything for our labors in the church, what doth it profit us to labor in the church save it were to declare the truth, that we may have rejoicings in the joy of our brethren?
35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that causes such joy in their hearts?

If you read my seven levels articles, you'll see that each level is an important rung on that ladder. We know more work is to be done towards working out our own exaltation beyond the veil.

Korihor...that would be funny if it weren't so sad. You, alarisherem, are the Korihor to whom Alma was speaking.

As for your 7 chakra nonsense article, just more evidence that you are messed up. You really need to speak with your bishop.