Multiple Mortal Probations Article

[Frutothsprt]

I am sort of new to the forum, at least in an active way. I tried to look through most of this thread, but couldn't find it. Has alaris talked much about why we even need a Savior with this "doctrine"?

Welcome! Yes he and others have. You cannot traverse into a new eternal round without a Savior. This is what would happen to us :

2 Nephi 9:8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.
10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.

This truth is symbolized when we partake of the Sacrament every week on the first day of the week. The Saviors changing of the Sabbath from the seventh day to the eighth day symbolizes that his Atonement is what allows us to continue on to become like Him.. To overcome the end into the next beginning. This weekly renewing of covenants symbolizes the covenants we make at the beginning of a new round going from smaller capacities to greater capacities. Have you read my article linked in the OP?

I did read most of it, but after reading “The Infinate Atonement” it’s just hard for me to draw a conclusion that Christ is only the Savior for this “round”.

[Alaris]

I am sort of new to the forum, at least in an active way. I tried to look through most of this thread, but couldn't find it. Has alaris talked much about why we even need a Savior with this "doctrine"?

Welcome! Yes he and others have. You cannot traverse into a new eternal round without a Savior. This is what would happen to us :

2 Nephi 9:8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.
10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.

This truth is symbolized when we partake of the Sacrament every week on the first day of the week. The Saviors changing of the Sabbath from the seventh day to the eighth day symbolizes that his Atonement is what allows us to continue on to become like Him.. To overcome the end into the next beginning. This weekly renewing of covenants symbolizes the covenants we make at the beginning of a new round going from smaller capacities to greater capacities. Have you read my article linked in the OP?

I did read most of it, but after reading “The Infinate Atonement” it’s just hard for me to draw a conclusion that Christ is only the Savior for this “round”.

I hear you. If Heavenly Father was a Savior like Joseph Smith taught, then who did he save? Certainly not Jesus Christ.

Who will save your spirit children some day?

[Spaced_Out]

I hear you. If Heavenly Father was a Savior like Joseph Smith taught, then who did he save? Certainly not Jesus Christ.

Who will save your spirit children some day?

That is conjecture but it does not teach MMP. There is only one Infinite and eternal sacrifice there can be no more sacrifice Alma 34. All of Gods children were at the plan presented at the council in heaven while all only had a spiritual bodies. Hence Satan and his followers 1/3 of the host of heaven cast out never to get a body. Jesus was chooses to make the atonement and infinite and eternal sacrifice. There is no other one to be sacrificed.

D&C19: 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

If we live righteously in the resurrection we gain eternal life, never to suffer the pains of mortality again never to be separated from God again. Eternal life is linked to the first resurrection of the just. That is the redemption of man.

Thomas S. Monson- The Race of Life (April 2012)
“As the result of Christ’s victory over the grave, we shall all be resurrected. This is the redemption of the soul.

Mosiah 15:23-24
23 They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death.

Mosiah 18:13
13 And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a ccovenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world

.

Mosiah 18:9
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

Alma 34
10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

Yes some teach that our Heavenly Father was also a saviour for all of his Fathers children. That also confirms the doctrine of only one savour for all eternal increase to gods male and female. It does not teach MMP or does it teach that every person entering the celestial kingdom has to come down to mortality and live a sinless life. There is only one first born and only one chosen and only one sacrifice needed.
Yes it is plainly taught the pattern repeats as man is God once was, and so it goes no throughout all eternity.

To enter the celestial kingdom all one has to do is be free from sin. ie repent of our sins. One does not have to be perfect. In heaven we grow grace to grace without sinning as Christ grew from grace to grace in mortality without sinning.

There is no deep dark mystery no truth hidden the very many scriptures are plain and easy to understand. If you think that you will some day stand up and cause a war in heaven and cause 1/3 of the host of heave to fall then say I will be the one I will save all, I will be the sacrifice you are delusional....

Many have received forgiveness of their sins while in mortality.

[Spaced_Out]

And still alaris insists that everybody pray about his false teachings. We're bad if we don't pray. You can see the flaw in his pleading, can't you?

I have been praying and fasting and going to Church and attending the temple and reading the scriptures and trying to stay worthy of the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost for decades. I have been blessed with many miracles throughout my life. No, really, miracles. I know God lives. I know His true Church has been established upon the earth again.

So when somebody comes along with a tall tale, I can usually tell by the power of the Holy Ghost that it is not true. If we didn't use the Gift of the Holy Ghost in this way, why even have it?

A prophet of God has just told the young adults in the Church that there is but one experience with mortality.
An anonymous person on the Internet says there are many.
Based on my testimony of living prophets alone, I automatically choose to believe Elder Uchtdorf. Based on my understanding of the Plan of Salvation, I know alaris is wrong.

This thread started on Dec 26. Over three weeks have elapsed and still we are subjected to alaris kicking against the pricks with his foolish beliefs. He may go on for another three weeks, but it doesn't change the fact that he is in opposition to the doctrines of the Church. So who's being contentious after all? Why, in fact, doesn't the devil let alaris stop preaching evil on LDSFF?

I've joked around a lot in this thread, but I am serious in my recommendation that alaris jettison the MMP heresy for his own soul and for the souls of those close to him. He is placing the salvation of others in jeopardy by subtly dragging them away from the profound beauty of the Gospel. How many unfortunate converts has he already made on this forum?

The Gospel is simple: faith, repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost, temple, endure to the end, and receive your eternal reward. It is the ultimate mockery of God's truth to claim that some poor soul has to repeat the mortal process time after time.

Remember the Alamo! No, not the Alamo. Alvin. Remember Alvin. He is one of Joseph Smith, Jr.'s older brothers.

"D&C 137:
5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;"

Now, if you want to pervert the pure truths of the scriptures, tell me that after Alvin died, he still had to go through multiple mortality probations. That he wouldn't make it to the Celestial Kingdom as revealed in the scriptures. And what of agency? What if Alvin decided he didn't want to go through another mortal experience? What if all of us decided in that grand council in heaven that we didn't want to experience more than one mortality? If it were Heavenly Father's plan for us to go through MMP, would he have been forced to banish us all from His presence? Would we have all been cast out with Lucifer? No, that ridiculous idea "makes reason stare."

From the hymn O My Father:
4. When I leave this frail existence,
When I lay this mortal by,
Father, Mother, may I meet you
In your royal courts on high?
Then, at length, when I’ve completed
All you sent me forth to do,
With your mutual approbation
Let me come and dwell with you.

alaris is wrong. The scriptures and the living prophets are right.

Yes I have brought this up many time all children prior to the age of accountability are saved and gain eternal life never to be separated from God.

Doctrine and Covenants 45:58
58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

Resurrected saved unto eternal life all during the millennium to inherit the earth and live with Christ for ever .

Another scripture damming MMP, the resurrection is the redemption of man and those that gain the first resurrection at the second coming . dwell with Christ for ever and ever ie gain eternal life the greatest gift God has to offer...

Doctrine and Covenants 76:62
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

[Spaced_Out]

Alright Spaced_Out. For the sake of our positive interactions we have had, I'll give you one last chance as well to engage in a civil, respectful debate. If you can stick to the substance and drop these condemnations and stop misstating me, I'll be happy to continue this conversation. You do not hold any keys that I do not hold myself brother. You can call me a wolf, but to what end? This is one reason why I chose to remain anonymous on my blog. Can there be vainglory if I am anonymous? You can see on my blog I haven't monetized it. I am not justifying polygamy, and I'm certainly not condoning procrastinating the day of your repentance via MMP.

I don't care what you say about not procrastinating the day of your repentance, the nature of man is such - that is why and apostle of the Lord teaches to the youth there is only one mortal probation. Why because the nature of man is to procrastinate, we are in a natural and fallen state. Teaching others there is MMP is going to cause them to procrastinate, it is a very dangerous and false teaching..

I asked you what authority you have to teach a different doctrine to the Apostle of the Lord - the best you can come up with is what authority do I have to judge you. ??

There is one Lord one Faith one Baptism that all might be in unity of faith, but alaris teaches a different doctrine a different faith, ie out of unity with the church - what is the purpose of such a thing that can only bring disunity and break down the church of God on Earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 38:27
27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

[Silver]

I am sort of new to the forum, at least in an active way. I tried to look through most of this thread, but couldn't find it. Has alaris talked much about why we even need a Savior with this "doctrine"?

Welcome! Yes he and others have. You cannot traverse into a new eternal round without a Savior. This is what would happen to us :

2 Nephi 9:8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.
10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.

This truth is symbolized when we partake of the Sacrament every week on the first day of the week. The Saviors changing of the Sabbath from the seventh day to the eighth day symbolizes that his Atonement is what allows us to continue on to become like Him.. To overcome the end into the next beginning. This weekly renewing of covenants symbolizes the covenants we make at the beginning of a new round going from smaller capacities to greater capacities. Have you read my article linked in the OP?

I did read most of it, but after reading “The Infinate Atonement” it’s just hard for me to draw a conclusion that Christ is only the Savior for this “round”.

In the April 2017 General Conference, both Elder M. Russell Ballard & President (of the 12 at the time) Russell M. Nelson recommended the reading of The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles (in the mouth of two witnesses...). In the October 2017 General Conference, Sister Jean B. Bingham, Relief Society General President, echoed their words and spoke of that marvelous document (in the mouth of three witnesses...will you listen now?).

Did you heed their counsel? Have you been reading the testimony of those men who are called, by God Himself, as they urged you to? If you had you wouldn't be confused about the role of Jesus Christ in saving an infinite number of souls.

So you can listen to alarisherem, a man who, even though he returned to the Church after excommunication, still complains about Church leadership and teaches false doctrine. Or you can follow the Apostles who tell you about the true power of our Savior and the truth of (just one) mortal experience. If that's a difficult choice for you, then you need to see your bishop as well.

As for you, alarisherem, I pity your sick soul. You'll be hobbling around on your your ankles soon so hard do you kick against the pricks.

Doctor: Dude, what happened?! You've got no feet!
alarisherem: Yeah, I didn't listen to the prophets and so I kicked against firm doctrine so hard that it tore my feet right off. Funny how I had everything figured out in my head and I didn't even think I needed my feet at the time.

[janderich]

Another scripture damming MMP, the resurrection is the redemption of man and those that gain the first resurrection at the second coming . dwell with Christ for ever and ever ie gain eternal life the greatest gift God has to offer...

Doctrine and Covenants 76:62
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

I believe in multiple eternal rounds and I believe in this scripture. I believe that we will dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. But here are a few verses you did not provide:

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

What do you think it takes to overcome all things? Do you believe you have done so because you are baptized and married in the temple? This question merits serious consideration.

I think I know what Joseph felt when he said:

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].” (History of the Church, 6:184–85)

[Red]

My thoughts on Eternal Lives

On the matter of multiple probations, it has been my understanding through personal revelation that we live many lives while hopefully progressing toward perfection, but once we receive the endowments of the temple, and honor them, then upon that death it is not necessary to return to this earth. Thus, the atonement takes on meaning and importance. At that time, we are able to enter the kingdom of paradise
However many do return from the paradise state for further progression. There is no end to progression, hence the eternal round.


Actually, there are four possibilities for those who enter the paradise state. The first is to simply remain there, enjoying the peace and beauty thereof. Secondly, they might enter the spirit prison such as a missionary preparing those who are ready to receive the work for the dead done in the physical temples. Third, they can continue progression by acting as guides or angels for the living. Lastly, some return to the earth in physical form to complete a great work or task. These are the great ones who walk among us.
I know this is not scripture and I am not suggesting or teaching it as such. It is, however, personal revelation and I know it to be true

Would you mind expounding on the endowment part? What about the endowment makes it unnecessary?

[inho]

Great question. First, take into consideration this is not a prophet who is the only one who may define doctrine.

Who are you referring to? Elizabeth quoted Wilford Woodruff and the year was 1889. In 1889, Woodruff was either the president of the church or lead the church as the president of the twelve.

Anyway,I still don't see any difference between MMP you are teaching and the ideas president Woodruff is condemning

[mirkwood]

It is simply stunning that any LDS would so discount the atonement. As for the non LDS it isn't that much of a surprise. Alaris may attend the LDS church, but he certainly does not believe the doctrines. For you lurkers: He can scream as loudly as he likes that he is LDS and believes in LDS doctrines, but he has clearly (and cleverly) shown he does not believe in LDS doctrine. If you wish to follow his heresy you are free to do so, just be honest with yourselves (unlike alaris) and know that you are not following LDS doctrine.

[Alaris]

Great question. First, take into consideration this is not a prophet who is the only one who may define doctrine.

Who are you referring to? Elizabeth quoted Wilford Woodruff and the year was 1889. In 1889, Woodruff was either the president of the church or lead the church as the president of the twelve.

Anyway,I still don't see any difference between MMP you are teaching and the ideas president Woodruff is condemning

[Alaris]

Great question. First, take into consideration this is not a prophet who is the only one who may define doctrine.

Who are you referring to? Elizabeth quoted Wilford Woodruff and the year was 1889. In 1889, Woodruff was either the president of the church or lead the church as the president of the twelve.

Anyway,I still don't see any difference between MMP you are teaching and the ideas president Woodruff is condemning

That whole last piece I quoted was from some dudes website.

Anyway you are ignoring the other WW quote about how we celestialized saints go through the same path as the holy ghost, son, and father. The two quotes are really easy to synthesize if you remove confirmation bias.

[Silver]

Great question. First, take into consideration this is not a prophet who is the only one who may define doctrine.

Who are you referring to? Elizabeth quoted Wilford Woodruff and the year was 1889. In 1889, Woodruff was either the president of the church or lead the church as the president of the twelve.

Anyway,I still don't see any difference between MMP you are teaching and the ideas president Woodruff is condemning

That whole last piece I quoted was from some dudes website.

Anyway you are ignoring the other WW quote about how we celestialized saints go through the same path as the holy ghost, son, and father. The two quotes are really easy to synthesize if you remove confirmation bias.

It's really easy for you to go see your bishop if you remove Lucifer bias.

[abijah]

This thread has come to have a very negative spirit to it...

[Spaced_Out]

Another scripture damming MMP, the resurrection is the redemption of man and those that gain the first resurrection at the second coming . dwell with Christ for ever and ever ie gain eternal life the greatest gift God has to offer...

Doctrine and Covenants 76:62
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

I believe in multiple eternal rounds and I believe in this scripture. I believe that we will dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. But here are a few verses you did not provide:

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

What do you think it takes to overcome all things? Do you believe you have done so because you are baptized and married in the temple? This question merits serious consideration.

I think I know what Joseph felt when he said:

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].” (History of the Church, 6:184–85)

Did Abraham overcome all things - yes he did is he now an exalted god. We do not need mortal probation in order to progress. One progression is much quicker with an immortal body. Living on earth 1,000 years with a celestial body having overcome sin - is overcoming all things. Satan has no power over a resurrected being who has the veil lifted and full knowledge of all things. There is nothing to overcome A child that dies after 1 minute goes strait to heaven and follows on the path to exaltation never to again suffer death gain.

It is a false notion that only in mortality we can progress. Satan never had a body but progressed to having authority int he presence of God, All the great and noble ones earned their status while in spirit. Jesus became perfect while still in spirit except for the restrictions of not having a 'physical body' . Having a resurrected body and the veil lifted we gain power over all things, indeed the scriptures say we are no longer acted upon.

You say you believe the scriptures but you lack understanding of them else you would not teach MMP - The Apostles of the Lord teach the opposite one mortal probation - yet you fly to pieces against the teachings of the church.

JS quote about members not accepting doctrine is more applicable to you - you do not accept the teachings of the scriptures or the teachings of the church but fly to pieces at the simple doctrine of the Resurrection.

[mirkwood]

This thread has come to have a very negative spirit to it...

That's what happens when heresy is taught and promoted.

[Alaris]

This thread has come to have a very negative spirit to it...

It's actually not nearly as bad once you start adding people to the "foe" list. Evil spirits only have what power you give them ... I'm not saying anyone here is an evil spirit - they obviously have a body!

[Alaris]

This thread has come to have a very negative spirit to it...

That's what happens when heresy is taught and promoted.

Hahahaha! SO backwards and you know it Mirkwood. NT.

[mirkwood]

This thread has come to have a very negative spirit to it...

That's what happens when heresy is taught and promoted.

Hahahaha! SO backwards and you know it Mirkwood. NT.

I feel sorry for you. Judgement day is going to be ugly if you do not give up your heresy.

[Durzan]

Honestly, I am starting to see why Alaris believes in MMP. Parts of the D&C talk about how Christ had to progress to get to where he was in the Pre-existence, much less where he is now. IE He progressed from grace to grace, line upon line, precept upon precept.

Its not that big of a step from that line of thinking to say that progression requires advancing through multiple generations of creations.

Time is linear, but the pattern is circular. If resurrected beings of Terrestrial rank or lower are given the option to revert back to their spirit forms and go through another period of time in the 1st and 2nd estate, then it make senses to me. Just because the option exists doesn't mean that everyone will take it, as most (if not many) of the resurrected beings would be content with wherever they are.

Personally, I am more inclined to believe that progressions between kingdoms is a more likely possibility; with the scriptures talking about having an increase being the general rule of thumb, not the end all be all. I mean, someone who is absolutely content with their location cant have an increase, because they are unwilling to put forth the effort needed to jump the very large gap between kingdoms. It is far easier to progress in mortality than it is to do so in the spirit world; likewise, it is far easier to progress in the spirit world, than in the resurrected world.

I have long thought that everything we think we know, even if it is in scripture will be turned on its head multiple times over the course of the Last Dispensation, and if that is the case, it may be that MMP Theory or my progression between kingdoms theory may prove to true in some sense or the other in the end. After all, if our Doctrine and the interpretation their-of cannot be changed, then we are little better than the Pharisees, who thought it heretical to believe in the things Christ taught... as in their eyes the scriptures outright condemned what Christ was talking about (in fact it may even have supported their views). But that's just my thoughts... and there is a decent possibility that they are not correct, so YMMV.

Now for all of you who are getting their panties in a twist over this topic (whether you are preaching to bring the "heretics" back into the fold or are defending your own views, it mattereth not), kindly spend a few days untwisting your panties and taking deep breaths.

[Alaris]

This thread has come to have a very negative spirit to it...

That's what happens when heresy is taught and promoted.

Hahahaha! SO backwards and you know it Mirkwood. NT.

I feel sorry for you. Judgement day is going to be ugly if you do not give up your heresy.

I can tell you feel sorry for me. My cup overfloweth with your charity mirkwood. Thank you.

[Alaris]

Honestly, I am starting to see why Alaris believes in MMP. Parts of the D&C talk about how Christ had to progress to get to where he was in the Pre-existence, much less where he is now. IE He progressed from grace to grace, line upon line, precept upon precept.

Its not that big of a step from that line of thinking to say that progression requires advancing through multiple generations of creations.

Time is linear, but the pattern is circular. If resurrected beings of Terrestrial rank or lower are given the option to revert back to their spirit forms and go through another period of time in the 1st and 2nd estate, then it make senses to me. Just because the option exists doesn't mean that everyone will take it, as most (if not many) of the resurrected beings would be content with wherever they are.

Personally, I am more inclined to believe that progressions between kingdoms is a more likely possibility; with the scriptures talking about having an increase being the general rule of thumb, not the end all be all. I mean, someone who is absolutely content with their location cant have an increase, because they are unwilling to put forth the effort needed to jump the very large gap between kingdoms. It is far easier to progress in mortality than it is to do so in the spirit world; likewise, it is far easier to progress in the spirit world, than in the resurrected world.

I have long thought that everything we think we know, even if it is in scripture will be turned on its head multiple times over the course of the Last Dispensation, and if that is the case, it may be that MMP Theory or my progression between kingdoms theory may prove to true in some sense or the other in the end. After all, if our Doctrine and the interpretation their-of cannot be changed, then we are little better than the Pharisees, who thought it heretical to believe in the things Christ taught... as in their eyes the scriptures outright condemned what Christ was talking about (in fact it may even have supported their views). But that's just my thoughts... and there is a decent possibility that they are not correct, so YMMV.

Now for all of you who are getting their panties in a twist over this topic (whether you are preaching to bring the "heretics" back into the fold or are defending your own views, it mattereth not), kindly spend a few days untwisting your panties and taking deep breaths.

I like what you said, "Time is linear but the pattern is circular."

Coincidentally, or not - (side note: it's amazing how often "coincidences" occur once you open yourself up to receiving line upon line and submit yourself to the Lord as a child submits to his father, willing to give up false traditions and assumptions) - 1 Nephi 10:19 speaks both to the "eternal round" and to uncovering mysteries!

1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

Are you diligently seeking mysteries or are you diligently policing "We have enough!"?

The course of the Lord is one eternal round. ! Sometimes these truths are hiding in plain sight! There are so many layers to the scriptures, but one will never be able to see them if they are not seeking them - and if they stop seeking they will lose what they knew until they don't even understand the basic tenets of the Gospel of Jesus Christ - such as charity, turn the other cheek - be kind. Be humble, etc. etc. as is on glorious display in this thread.

I do believe Bruce R (7 deadly heresies) that there is no progression between kingdoms once a final judgement is executed--but that is where I believe there will be some oddly disappointed faces - when some learn that the same God who offers a degree of salvation to anyone who does not openly rebel against him is the same God who has a plan to get anyone who will to come to the church of the Firstborn. (see my humorous and somewhat charming comment on an earlier page about a workflow that included some pics.)

D&C 77:11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.

I believe there is a final judgement each eternal round - however, is there some other path that souls can elect to take? Does becoming a begotten son and daughter to Christ mean we become his children, along with our new names, in the next eternal round where he assumes his role as father with his new name?

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Is this more or less merciful than those here screaming with angry faces that there is only one eternal round for us and that's that! Does this give the Savior more or less power - for all those tripping over themselves to conclude for us that MMP somehow not only cheapens the Savior but makes His Atonement meaningless? We LDS happily go to the world with a message of love about a gospel that does not leave souls in hell - yet are we willing to say "we have enough" and define what the limits of God's love and mercy is, drawing conclusions that reflect less mercy and then say MMP cheapens the atonement - and all without any pondering or prayer? It is not a waste of time to ponder these truths and pray on them friends. Those angry faces and comments are not a result of the negativity introduced by MMP by me or anyone else in this thread who believe MMP but by the adversary who opposes all truth vehemently who uses those who subject themselves unto him. You can read this thread from the beginning and see this clearly unfold.

[Spaced_Out]

Is this more or less merciful than those here screaming with angry faces that there is only one eternal round for us and that's that! Does this give the Savior more or less power - for all those tripping over themselves to conclude for us that MMP somehow not only cheapens the Savior but makes His Atonement meaningless? We LDS happily go to the world with a message of love about a gospel that does not leave souls in hell - yet are we willing to say "we have enough" and define what the limits of God's love and mercy is, drawing conclusions that reflect less mercy and then say MMP cheapens the atonement - and all without any pondering or prayer? It is not a waste of time to ponder these truths and pray on them friends. Those angry faces and comments are not a result of the negativity introduced by MMP by me or anyone else in this thread who believe MMP but by the adversary who opposes all truth vehemently who uses those who subject themselves unto him. You can read this thread from the beginning and see this clearly unfold.

You pervert the scriptures and the teaching of all the prophets and apostles, you know with a perfect knowledge your interpretation of those things are wrong. There is no other way, there is no other savior there is no other gospel - the scriptures do not lie or teach half truths. Jesus grew from grace to grace while on earth not some other mortal life, the scripture talking about Jesus progressing from grace to grace specifically states it was from his birth to his baptism at age 30 when he received a fullness - all during one mortality. There are many scriptures talking about all the things Jesus did in the preexistence while He was in spirit form. There is not one scripture or one teaching from any general authority that Jesus previously had a mortal body - it is an abomination of a doctrine a perversion of the atonement and the things He accomplished. Coming down in mortally for the first time and living a perfect life. Then claiming one day you will also be a first born and a savor of the God's children - when there is only one infinite and eternal sacrifice.

Your teachings are not in line with teachings of the church, handbooks of instructions, teachings of the general authorities or scripture -
--- Again there is one Lord one Faith one unity if you are not one with the brethren you are not one in the Kingdom of God but are preaching disunity in an attempt to destroy the kingdom and bring misery to the souls of men. That is your choice and prerogative but tanking others down with you takes you to whole new level of digression.

[Spaced_Out]

Honestly, I am starting to see why Alaris believes in MMP. Parts of the D&C talk about how Christ had to progress to get to where he was in the Pre-existence, much less where he is now. IE He progressed from grace to grace, line upon line, precept upon precept.

The scriptures are clear His progression from grace to grace was on this earth no where else. Sayin g one eternal round does not mean one eternal mortal probation and resurrection.

The main purpose of God is the immortality and eternal life of Man - that is achieved at the resurrection. During the millennium children will grow up without sin unto salvation - they are resurrected when reaching the age of tree (70y). Why not just stay mortal and continue to progress - no it is enough - not required - all one needs to continue to progress is obtain an immortal body.

Again having continual increase is having offspring and creating spiritual bodies for intelligences. The teaching is very plain and simple that is how God continues to have an increase in glory. You cant take the teachings and pervert it to say there is continual increase through mortal probations - mortal probations are very limited in how much one can progress. The scriptures are full of accounts of people who have overcome the world - there are many scriptures that say those that have past through great tribulations will rise in the first resurrection to redemption and eternal life.

One only needs to overcome the world once - thee is zero purpose in rinse and repeat cycle. The same spirit that possesses our bodies in this life continues in the next, even if we had to live a 1,000 mortal probations it would make no difference, God is a perfect judge and knows the end from the beginning.

There is no possibility of another mortal probation - those that teach it are overcome by the world and are looking for more time to repent and excuses s for sin and are attempting to bring others out of unity with God and His Church..

[Alaris]

Is this more or less merciful than those here screaming with angry faces that there is only one eternal round for us and that's that! Does this give the Savior more or less power - for all those tripping over themselves to conclude for us that MMP somehow not only cheapens the Savior but makes His Atonement meaningless? We LDS happily go to the world with a message of love about a gospel that does not leave souls in hell - yet are we willing to say "we have enough" and define what the limits of God's love and mercy is, drawing conclusions that reflect less mercy and then say MMP cheapens the atonement - and all without any pondering or prayer? It is not a waste of time to ponder these truths and pray on them friends. Those angry faces and comments are not a result of the negativity introduced by MMP by me or anyone else in this thread who believe MMP but by the adversary who opposes all truth vehemently who uses those who subject themselves unto him. You can read this thread from the beginning and see this clearly unfold.

You pervert the scriptures and the teaching of all the prophets and apostles, you know with a perfect knowledge your interpretation of those things are wrong. There is no other way, there is no other savior there is no other gospel - the scriptures do not lie or teach half truths. Jesus grew from grace to grace while on earth not some other mortal life, the scripture talking about Jesus progressing from grace to grace specifically states it was from his birth to his baptism at age 30 when he received a fullness - all during one mortality. There are many scriptures talking about all the things Jesus did in the preexistence while He was in spirit form. There is not one scripture or one teaching from any general authority that Jesus previously had a mortal body - it is an abomination of a doctrine a perversion of the atonement and the things He accomplished. Coming down in mortally for the first time and living a perfect life. Then claiming one day you will also be a first born and a savor of the God's children - when there is only one infinite and eternal sacrifice.

Your teachings are not in line with teachings of the church, handbooks of instructions, teachings of the general authorities or scripture -
--- Again there is one Lord one Faith one unity if you are not one with the brethren you are not one in the Kingdom of God but are preaching disunity in an attempt to destroy the kingdom and bring misery to the souls of men. That is your choice and prerogative but tanking others down with you takes you to whole new level of digression.

Well at least you got rid of the angry faces. You should really take the combative language out of your posts. It's a waste of time - stick to the substance of why you think this doctrine is wrong - even a perversion - but your condemnations and accusations are silly and needless and certainly are combative and contentious. I'd be happy to continue to engage with you if you choose to be civil.

You cannot grow from grace to grace sinlessly - that is such a basic contradiction. You cannot become perfect on your first go round. Your soul cannot be created perfect as that would rob every single soul who was created otherwise. That would rob the Savior of His own achievement (well he was the first created spirit and God always just makes the first one perfect) Nope. There is one path to perfection. D&C 93 is clear - this is how Jesus became perfect. This is how you become perfect. Jesus said be perfect as I am perfect. Revelation says - once we reach that level - we will overcome even as He overcame. The scriptures are clear - crystal clear.

You proceed from grace to grace until you can live a sinless life. You must descend below all before you can receive all. You must prove to yourself and to those over whom you preside you can live a perfect life and save them from their sins to allow them to continue their paths to do the same.

Moses 7:1 And it came to pass that Enoch continued his speech, saying: Behold, our father Adam taught these things, and many have believed and become the sons of God, and many have believed not, and have perished in their sins, and are looking forth with fear, in torment, for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God to be poured out upon them.

(Odd how fear, torment, and fiery indignation is all displayed in this thread directly!)