Multiple Mortal Probations Article

[Elizabeth]

I personally have vivid and detailed memories of one particular past life, and recollections of three others. It has been suggested to me that these may be my observations in the pre mortal existence of the mortal lives of those to whom I was close to.

I keep an open mind and will wait till I pass from this mortal life when I may then know the answers.

[BruceRGilbert]

I personally have vivid and detailed memories of one particular past life, and recollections of three others. It has been suggested to me that these may be my observations in the pre mortal existence of the mortal lives of those to whom I was close to.

I keep an open mind and will wait till I pass from this mortal life when I may then know the answers.

As a viable and alternative explanation to your vivid and detailed memories, please consider the role of a "Guardian Angel" and a "Ministering Angel" for and in behalf of those whose lives you remember so well. These "assignments" are of such nature as to provide that which you describe.

Doctrine and Covenants 76:88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?

5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.

[janderich]

I believe in multiple eternal rounds and I believe in this scripture. I believe that we will dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. But here are a few verses you did not provide:

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

What do you think it takes to overcome all things? Do you believe you have done so because you are baptized and married in the temple? This question merits serious consideration.

I think I know what Joseph felt when he said:

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].” (History of the Church, 6:184–85)

Did Abraham overcome all things - yes he did is he now an exalted god. We do not need mortal probation in order to progress. One progression is much quicker with an immortal body.

Where did you get this idea that progression is much quicker with an immortal body? It doesn't come from a prophet or apostle so according to your own standard you are preaching false doctrine.

Living on earth 1,000 years with a celestial body having overcome sin - is overcoming all things.

This is another hearsay. What makes you say that living on the earth 1,000 years with a celestial body allows us to overcome sin, much less all things?

Satan has no power over a resurrected being who has the veil lifted and full knowledge of all things. There is nothing to overcome

More false doctrine. The BofM teaches us, "for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world." (Alma 34:34)

A child that dies after 1 minute goes strait to heaven and follows on the path to exaltation never to again suffer death gain.

The is false. The doctrine is that a child who dies after 1 minute enters the Celestial kingdom. However Joseph said that the child will still need to be sealed in order to gain exaltation.

It is a false notion that only in mortality we can progress. Satan never had a body but progressed to having authority int he presence of God, All the great and noble ones earned their status while in spirit. Jesus became perfect while still in spirit except for the restrictions of not having a 'physical body' . Having a resurrected body and the veil lifted we gain power over all things, indeed the scriptures say we are no longer acted upon.

I believe we can progress without a mortal body. But I believe there are certain lessons we can only learn in mortality (otherwise why would we come here at all).

Again, you do not know if Satan or the Savior had a body previously. I strongly suspect that in fact they both did, but we have no official statements on the matter.

You say you believe the scriptures but you lack understanding of them else you would not teach MMP - The Apostles of the Lord teach the opposite one mortal probation - yet you fly to pieces against the teachings of the church.

JS quote about members not accepting doctrine is more applicable to you - you do not accept the teachings of the scriptures or the teachings of the church but fly to pieces at the simple doctrine of the Resurrection.

In this short post you have presented so much false and inaccurate teaching that I believe I have proven my point, including the error of this statement.

[Alaris]

I personally have vivid and detailed memories of one particular past life, and recollections of three others. It has been suggested to me that these may be my observations in the pre mortal existence of the mortal lives of those to whom I was close to.

I keep an open mind and will wait till I pass from this mortal life when I may then know the answers.

As a viable and alternative explanation to your vivid and detailed memories, please consider the role of a "Guardian Angel" and a "Ministering Angel" for and in behalf of those whose lives you remember so well. These "assignments" are of such nature as to provide that which you describe.

I don't think Elizabeth described much of her pearls at all, and can you blame her? I'd be interested to know if these are first person memories or not.

[janderich]

One does not need to live a sinless life but repent and overcome the sin and be forgiven in this life. When we repent our sins are forgiven and no longer remembered - so when we die and come to the final judgement God will see us as having lived a sinless life, and will be resurrected to eternal life never to suffer pain in the flesh again. There is only one eternal and infinite sacrifice.
We do not need to overcome as He overcame there is no such teaching - we need to come forth sinless through repentance.

John sharing the words of the Savior tells us, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear the the Spirit saith..." (Rev 3:21). Spaced_Out can you hear what the Savior is telling us?

The scriptures are clear there is only one Anointed One, only one Savior for all of creations and those that are still to be, and if we repent we do not suffer as He suffered, an if we don't repent we suffer as he suffered and are then redeemed to a kingdom of glory.

"And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them." (Moses 2:27). How is it that he has and is creating man in the image of his Only Begotten? If it wasn't the Lord himself who spoke it, I'm sure you and Silver would cry "blasphemy"! As it is you will simply try and twist the words to fit your paradigm.

Now you teach we must all suffer as He suffered and do the works He did that is an anti-Chris teaching - there is no such teaching anywhere in any scripture or commentary by a GA - it is simply an imagination of your mind and you totally misunderstand the scripture..

Then Christ himself is anti-Christ for he says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12). Here is how that scripture is explained in Lectures on Faith, "All these sayings put together give as clear an account of the state of the glorified Saints as language could give—the works that Jesus had done they were to do, and greater works than those which he had done among them should they do, and that because he went to the Father. (lecture 7:12) When will you hear what the scriptures are saying? How long can you close your ears to the word of the Lord?

[Alaris]

One does not need to live a sinless life but repent and overcome the sin and be forgiven in this life. When we repent our sins are forgiven and no longer remembered - so when we die and come to the final judgement God will see us as having lived a sinless life, and will be resurrected to eternal life never to suffer pain in the flesh again. There is only one eternal and infinite sacrifice.
We do not need to overcome as He overcame there is no such teaching - we need to come forth sinless through repentance.

John sharing the words of the Savior tells us, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear the the Spirit saith..." (Rev 3:21). Spaced_Out can you hear what the Savior is telling us?

The scriptures are clear there is only one Anointed One, only one Savior for all of creations and those that are still to be, and if we repent we do not suffer as He suffered, an if we don't repent we suffer as he suffered and are then redeemed to a kingdom of glory.

"And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them." (Moses 2:27). How is it that he has and is creating man in the image of his Only Begotten? If it wasn't the Lord himself who spoke it, I'm sure you and Silver would cry "blasphemy"! As it is you will simply try and twist the words to fit your paradigm.

Now you teach we must all suffer as He suffered and do the works He did that is an anti-Chris teaching - there is no such teaching anywhere in any scripture or commentary by a GA - it is simply an imagination of your mind and you totally misunderstand the scripture..

Then Christ himself is anti-Christ for he says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12). Here is how that scripture is explained in Lectures on Faith, "All these sayings put together give as clear an account of the state of the glorified Saints as language could give—the works that Jesus had done they were to do, and greater works than those which he had done among them should they do, and that because he went to the Father. (lecture 7:12) When will you hear what the scriptures are saying? How long can you close your ears to the word of the Lord?

Matthew 20:20 ¶ Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

[Spaced_Out]

Matthew 20:20 ¶ Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Drinking his cup is to sit with him and eat in the presence of the Father nothing to do with the atonement. We do indeed have the same baptism and do indeed drink of the same cup, but to gain eternal life we have to earn that ourselves it cant be gained by a pray of the Mother..

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testamen ... ng#title22
Mark 10:38–39. “Can Ye Drink of the Cup That I Drink Of?”
Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained that the phrase “drink of the cup” was “a metaphorical expression meaning, ‘To do the things which my lot in life requires of me.’” He explained that the phrase “be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with” means “to follow my course, suffer persecution, be rejected of men, and finally be slain for the truth’s sake” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:566). By asking the questions, “Can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” (Mark 10:38), the Savior refocused the attention of James and John on carrying out the Father’s will, rather than on receiving glory and honor.

[Spaced_Out]

You are confused as usual.... You cant take one Scripture out of context and deny all the revelations and teachings of the prophets on the subject. We overcome in this world and move on no need for more probation's it serves no purpose.

One does not need to live a sinless life but repent and overcome the sin and be forgiven in this life. When we repent our sins are forgiven and no longer remembered - so when we die and come to the final judgement God will see us as having lived a sinless life, and will be resurrected to eternal life never to suffer pain in the flesh again. There is only one eternal and infinite sacrifice.
We do not need to overcome as He overcame there is no such teaching - we need to come forth sinless through repentance.

John sharing the words of the Savior tells us, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear the the Spirit saith..." (Rev 3:21). Spaced_Out can you hear what the Savior is telling us?

The resurrection of the just is at the second coming all who live faithfully in this life overcome by faith - Faith in Christ not as he overcame...

D&C 76:50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—-
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

We overcome the world in this life by being faithful and are lifted up at the second coming..

D&C 75:22 And it shall be more tolerable for the heathen in the day of judgment, than for that house; therefore, gird up your loins and be faithful, and ye shall overcome all things, and be lifted up at the last day. Even so. Amen.

Again all sins forgiven and we overcome in this life if we are faithful. Things hereafter are continuing revelations and direction from the Prophet - don't be confused and go off on a tangent - it is very clearly talking about this life only.

1 John 2:14-15
14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Doctrine and Covenants 63:47-48
47 He that is faithful and endureth shall overcome the world.

JST of Rev 2
JST, Revelation 2
Those who overcome the world by obedience to Christ’s commandments will rule kingdoms in the world to come with faith, equity, and justice.

1 John 4:4-5
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Doctrine and Covenants 64:2
2 For verily I say unto you, I will that ye should overcome the world; wherefore I will have compassion upon you.

[Spaced_Out]

Confused as usual.
I am not sure why I wast my time on this - it is very simple... Christ did indeed create Adam and patterned Adam's physical body after his spiritual body as he did not have a physical body - that is what the scripture and church teaches - where is your teaching or scripture just wild speculation based on lies.
There is no teaching that any had a physical body prior to coming to earth. There was no physical creation prior to Adam..

The scriptures are clear there is only one Anointed One, only one Savior for all of creations and those that are still to be, and if we repent we do not suffer as He suffered, an if we don't repent we suffer as he suffered and are then redeemed to a kingdom of glory.

"And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them." (Moses 2:27). How is it that he has and is creating man in the image of his Only Begotten? If it wasn't the Lord himself who spoke it, I'm sure you and Silver would cry "blasphemy"! As it is you will simply try and twist the words to fit your paradigm.

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Adam was first physical creation - prior to that there was only spiritual creations. How long can you keep teaching lies.... Where is your scripture that there was any physical creation prior to Adam.............

4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;
6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.
8 And I, the Lord God, planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there I put the man whom I had formed.

Abraham 3:23-24
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast achosen before thou wast born.

The prophets of the restoration all received their lesson in the spirit world and were prepared to come down to this earth from the spirit world - there is no other way to interpret this - this is how the GA and hand books of the church interpret it - there is no teaching anywhere ever of a previous mortality.... Please where are your scriptures - so we can put this to rest...

53 The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work,
54 Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world.
55 I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.
56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

[Spaced_Out]

Confused as usual: Short answer the greater works are referring to family history and ordnance work for the dead. It is work that Christ could not do as it only started after his resurrection. Why is that as there was no physical body prior to this earth life and there is no more mortal probation else why bother with baptism for the dead - if they have many multiple probation to be baptised... What a lot of insanity over - and incapability of understanding a simple scripture.....

Also Christ was referring to works done in this life not some future existence... As we cant do work for our salvation after we are dead.... We are judged by works done in the flesh....

Now you teach we must all suffer as He suffered and do the works He did that is an anti-Chris teaching - there is no such teaching anywhere in any scripture or commentary by a GA - it is simply an imagination of your mind and you totally misunderstand the scripture..

Then Christ himself is anti-Christ for he says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12). Here is how that scripture is explained in Lectures on Faith, "All these sayings put together give as clear an account of the state of the glorified Saints as language could give—the works that Jesus had done they were to do, and greater works than those which he had done among them should they do, and that because he went to the Father. (lecture 7:12) When will you hear what the scriptures are saying? How long can you close your ears to the word of the Lord?

You mock and make light of the Atonement... This is talking about the world to come as we can't suffer as He suffered in the flesh as our bodies are simply not strong enough to endure that level of pain. But those that don't repent will suffer in spirit prison for 1,000years as Christ suffered. Please note no physical body needed to suffer as he suffered.... This also blows the entire premises that there needs to be many mortal probation's so we can suffer as He suffered....

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

[janderich]

One does not need to live a sinless life but repent and overcome the sin and be forgiven in this life. When we repent our sins are forgiven and no longer remembered - so when we die and come to the final judgement God will see us as having lived a sinless life, and will be resurrected to eternal life never to suffer pain in the flesh again. There is only one eternal and infinite sacrifice.
We do not need to overcome as He overcame there is no such teaching - we need to come forth sinless through repentance.

John sharing the words of the Savior tells us, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear the the Spirit saith..." (Rev 3:21). Spaced_Out can you hear what the Savior is telling us?

The scriptures are clear there is only one Anointed One, only one Savior for all of creations and those that are still to be, and if we repent we do not suffer as He suffered, an if we don't repent we suffer as he suffered and are then redeemed to a kingdom of glory.

"And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them." (Moses 2:27). How is it that he has and is creating man in the image of his Only Begotten? If it wasn't the Lord himself who spoke it, I'm sure you and Silver would cry "blasphemy"! As it is you will simply try and twist the words to fit your paradigm.

Now you teach we must all suffer as He suffered and do the works He did that is an anti-Chris teaching - there is no such teaching anywhere in any scripture or commentary by a GA - it is simply an imagination of your mind and you totally misunderstand the scripture..

Then Christ himself is anti-Christ for he says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12). Here is how that scripture is explained in Lectures on Faith, "All these sayings put together give as clear an account of the state of the glorified Saints as language could give—the works that Jesus had done they were to do, and greater works than those which he had done among them should they do, and that because he went to the Father. (lecture 7:12) When will you hear what the scriptures are saying? How long can you close your ears to the word of the Lord?

Matthew 20:20 ¶ Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Isn't it sad that the deepest truths of the gospel, spoken by the Lord himself, are trampled under foot and not considered at all? As if Jesus is simply talking about having a meal with him!

"When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:555)

[Spaced_Out]

Isn't it sad that the deepest truths of the gospel, spoken by the Lord himself, are trampled under foot and not considered at all? As if Jesus is simply talking about having a meal with him!

"When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.” (History of the Church, 5:555)

Has nothing to do with the most abhorrent doctrine of having to also become a saviour and do the exact same as he did. Note the parable of the labour is given in the previous verses. Basically unto whom much is given much is required - if we do what is required of us we also inherit eternal life no need to come down to earth and live a perfect life. Total corruption of the meaning of the scripture..

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testamen ... ng#title22
Mark 10:38–39. “Can Ye Drink of the Cup That I Drink Of?”
Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained that the phrase “drink of the cup” was “a metaphorical expression meaning, ‘To do the things which my lot in life requires of me.’” He explained that the phrase “be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with” means “to follow my course, suffer persecution, be rejected of men, and finally be slain for the truth’s sake” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:566). By asking the questions, “Can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” (Mark 10:38), the Savior refocused the attention of James and John on carrying out the Father’s will, rather than on receiving glory and honor.

Matthew 20:1–16. The Parable of the Laborers
A common practice in Jesus’s day was for landowners to go to a central gathering place and hire temporary laborers. In this parable the householder went into the marketplace at about 6:00 a.m. and hired laborers to work for a “penny” (or denarius, which was a typical day’s wages). He returned to the marketplace at 9:00 a.m., 3:00 p.m., and 5:00 p.m. (the eleventh hour), found other unemployed men who were willing to work, and hired them, promising to pay them “whatsoever is right” (Matthew 20:4, 7).

It would have been unusual to pay first those who had worked the least (see Matthew 20:8). However, this parable is an extension of what Jesus Christ taught in Matthew 19:30: “But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.” Those hired in the eleventh hour might represent those who become converted late in life but thereafter labor diligently in the kingdom. One truth this parable illustrates is that whether people become disciples of Christ in their youth, in their young adulthood, in the later stages of life, or in some instances in the spirit world (see D&C 137:7–8), eternal life is the reward for all people who make and keep sacred covenants with the Lord (see D&C 76:95; 84:38; 88:107). """"""This life or under special circumstances the spirit world - no more mortal probation that is the end of it...""""""""""""""""""""""

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland offered these additional lessons from this parable of the laborers:

“This parable—like all parables—is not really about laborers or wages any more than the others are about sheep and goats. This is a story about God’s goodness, His patience and forgiveness, and the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a story about generosity and compassion. It is a story about grace. It underscores the thought I heard many years ago that surely the thing God enjoys most about being God is the thrill of being merciful, especially to those who don’t expect it and often feel they don’t deserve it.

“… However late you think you are, however many chances you think you have missed, however many mistakes you feel you have made or talents you think you don’t have, or however far from home and family and God you feel you have traveled, I testify that you have not traveled beyond the reach of divine love. It is not possible for you to sink lower than the infinite light of Christ’s Atonement shines.

“… There is no dream that in the unfolding of time and eternity cannot yet be realized. Even if you feel you are the lost and last laborer of the eleventh hour, the Lord of the vineyard still stands beckoning.

“… His concern is for the faith at which you finally arrive, not the hour of the day in which you got there.

“So if you have made covenants, keep them. If you haven’t made them, make them. If you have made them and broken them, repent and repair them. It is never too late so long as the Master of the vineyard says there is time” (“The Laborers in the Vineyard,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2012, 32–33).

[janderich]

You are confused as usual.... You cant take one Scripture out of context and deny all the revelations and teachings of the prophets on the subject. We overcome in this world and move on no need for more probation's it serves no purpose.

One does not need to live a sinless life but repent and overcome the sin and be forgiven in this life. When we repent our sins are forgiven and no longer remembered - so when we die and come to the final judgement God will see us as having lived a sinless life, and will be resurrected to eternal life never to suffer pain in the flesh again. There is only one eternal and infinite sacrifice.
We do not need to overcome as He overcame there is no such teaching - we need to come forth sinless through repentance.

John sharing the words of the Savior tells us, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear the the Spirit saith..." (Rev 3:21). Spaced_Out can you hear what the Savior is telling us?

The resurrection of the just is at the second coming all who live faithfully in this life overcome by faith - Faith in Christ not as he overcame...

D&C 76:50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—-
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

We overcome the world in this life by being faithful and are lifted up at the second coming..

Yes verse 53 above gives us the promise for those who overcome by faith. Namely, they have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and enter into the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. Or in other words, their calling and election was made sure and they obtained the glory prepared for them. But they have not overcome all things otherwise the Lord would not have said a few verses later, "And they shall overcome all things". Which of course means that they have not yet overcome all things otherwise he would have said they "have overcome all things". So, if they continue on the path they have started this round they will move forward round after round until they actually do overcome all things.

D&C 75:22 And it shall be more tolerable for the heathen in the day of judgment, than for that house; therefore, gird up your loins and be faithful, and ye shall overcome all things, and be lifted up at the last day. Even so. Amen.

Again all sins forgiven and we overcome in this life if we are faithful. Things hereafter are continuing revelations and direction from the Prophet - don't be confused and go off on a tangent - it is very clearly talking about this life only.

1 John 2:14-15
14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

I will address this scripture in 1 John because it is slightly different from the rest. Here we need a more plain translation. Young's Literal Translation is a word for word translation of the Bible. Here is what it says, "I did write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I did write to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God in you doth remain, and ye have overcome the evil." Notice it does not say "the evil one" or "the wicked one", the word "one" was added on by translators intending to clarify what John had written. It is clear that these young men have not overcome the evil one, rather they have overcome the evil they previously were faced with. There is no way they have perfected themselves as Christ has, and can sit in everlasting burnings.

Doctrine and Covenants 63:47-48
47 He that is faithful and endureth shall overcome the world.

JST of Rev 2
JST, Revelation 2
Those who overcome the world by obedience to Christ’s commandments will rule kingdoms in the world to come with faith, equity, and justice.

1 John 4:4-5
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Doctrine and Covenants 64:2
2 For verily I say unto you, I will that ye should overcome the world; wherefore I will have compassion upon you.

All of these other scriptures talk about what will happen in the world to come. They do not talk about overcomming all things now. It will be a long time until you will be able to overcome as the Savior has overcome.

[janderich]

Isn't it sad that the deepest truths of the gospel, spoken by the Lord himself, are trampled under foot and not considered at all? As if Jesus is simply talking about having a meal with him!

"When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.” (History of the Church, 5:555)

Has nothing to do with the most abhorrent doctrine of having to also become a saviour and do the exact same as he did. Note the parable of the labour is given in the previous verses. Basically unto whom much is given much is required - if we do what is required of us we also inherit eternal life no need to come down to earth and live a perfect life. Total corruption of the meaning of the scripture..

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testamen ... ng#title22
Mark 10:38–39. “Can Ye Drink of the Cup That I Drink Of?”
Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained that the phrase “drink of the cup” was “a metaphorical expression meaning, ‘To do the things which my lot in life requires of me.’” He explained that the phrase “be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with” means “to follow my course, suffer persecution, be rejected of men, and finally be slain for the truth’s sake” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:566). By asking the questions, “Can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” (Mark 10:38), the Savior refocused the attention of James and John on carrying out the Father’s will, rather than on receiving glory and honor.

You have shared your thoughts on Matt 22:23 and I have shared mine. I will let you and others judge for themselves.

Matthew 20:1–16. The Parable of the Laborers
A common practice in Jesus’s day was for landowners to go to a central gathering place and hire temporary laborers. In this parable the householder went into the marketplace at about 6:00 a.m. and hired laborers to work for a “penny” (or denarius, which was a typical day’s wages). He returned to the marketplace at 9:00 a.m., 3:00 p.m., and 5:00 p.m. (the eleventh hour), found other unemployed men who were willing to work, and hired them, promising to pay them “whatsoever is right” (Matthew 20:4, 7).

It would have been unusual to pay first those who had worked the least (see Matthew 20:8). However, this parable is an extension of what Jesus Christ taught in Matthew 19:30: “But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.” Those hired in the eleventh hour might represent those who become converted late in life but thereafter labor diligently in the kingdom. One truth this parable illustrates is that whether people become disciples of Christ in their youth, in their young adulthood, in the later stages of life, or in some instances in the spirit world (see D&C 137:7–8), eternal life is the reward for all people who make and keep sacred covenants with the Lord (see D&C 76:95; 84:38; 88:107). """"""This life or under special circumstances the spirit world - no more mortal probation that is the end of it...""""""""""""""""""""""

Certainly as you say, this parable is about those who keep covenants and will be blessed with eternal life (ie. salvation in the celestial kingdom). And indeed some may begin their service at different times and still obtain the same reward as others. But this parable can be taken to the extreem. My father when speaking of this parable used to say, "Isn't it wonderful that we can receive exactly what Christ will receive at final judgement? Even though we have been sinful we can repent and have what he has." But I have learned that this parable does not teach us such a thing. Perish the thought.

This parable is as you said, a continuation of the previous few verses of Matt 19 and relates to Peter's question, "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?" Peter's question is a bit of a power grab and the Lord want's to teach him a lesson about the kingdom of heaven so he provides the parable of the laborers. The lesson for Peter, and for us, is that one does not serve only to gain reward and the length of service does not matter, what matters is changing and improving ourselves. By so doing, we will obtain what the Lord has in store for us. And it's corollary, if we do not it does not matter how long we have served.

The parable indicates that those who served the longest in the vineyard murmured against the good man of the house (see v 11). For all their service they had not changed. They thought that the work itself was enough. But such is not the case. Only when we change, only when we repent and do the work before us will we merit more in the kingdom of God.

So my father's statement about us being equal to Christ at final judgement is not taught in this parable. Rather it reinforces the truth that one must work, change and grow or he will never obtain what Christ has obtained. The Lord has learned and progressed well beyond us.

[Silver]

Confused as usual:

You are right. Those blokes are confused. However, it is more correct to simply say this:
Neither alarisherem or jan-in-the-ditch truly belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They have to lie to get a temple recommend, if they even have one. They have obviously justified in their minds that it's OK to ignore the words of a prophet who just spoke to the Church. If they can do that, their standing in the Church is in question.

We have shown them how they are wrong. They prefer instead to fight against the doctrines of the Church. They shall have their reward.

Of course, they might come back and say, "But you were contentious and that's of the devil!!!" (whom they ironically serve) To which I repeat my question:

Which is worse, me contending against error or them leading away converts into apostasy?

So we should discuss their heresy with them as if they are not members of the true Church. In fact, I'm thinking they're just Snuffer plants that came to do what? Stir up contention.

[mirkwood]

It is simply stunning that any LDS would so discount the atonement. As for the non LDS it isn't that much of a surprise. Alaris may attend the LDS church, but he certainly does not believe the doctrines. For you lurkers: He can scream as loudly as he likes that he is LDS and believes in LDS doctrines, but he has clearly (and cleverly) shown he does not believe in LDS doctrine. If you wish to follow his heresy you are free to do so, just be honest with yourselves (unlike alaris) and know that you are not following LDS doctrine.

I guess you have lived a very sheltered life! I have known a few Christians that can put most LDS saints to shame in the Atonement department. Dumitru Duduman, a Russian Immigrant in the 1990's, comes to mind. There are many more people like him, who risked everything, even there lives to being the knowledge of the Atonement to an oppressed people. He snuggled bibles by the thousands into Russia during the cold war years.

You comment made no sense regarding my comment. I am far from sheltered.

[Spaced_Out]

All of these other scriptures talk about what will happen in the world to come. They do not talk about overcomming all things now. It will be a long time until you will be able to overcome as the Savior has overcome.

No they don't we overcome in this world - read those scriptures again - they are very clear no honest person can say they talk about future worlds.. By the way you did get one thing correct there is only one world to come - it is never plural when the scriptures refer to the after life...

How can we overcome the world when we are no longer in it!.., and the same spirit that possess us in this world continues with us when we move to world of disembodied spirits (prison or paradise), from which we are raised according to the works done in the flesh .

Enos 1:5 And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.
6 And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.
7 And I said: Lord, how is it done?
8 And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh; wherefore, go to, thy faith hath made thee whole.

[Spaced_Out]

Confused as usual:

You are right. Those blokes are confused. However, it is more correct to simply say this:
Neither alarisherem or jan-in-the-ditch truly belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They have to lie to get a temple recommend, if they even have one. They have obviously justified in their minds that it's OK to ignore the words of a prophet who just spoke to the Church. If they can do that, their standing in the Church is in question.

We have shown them how they are wrong. They prefer instead to fight against the doctrines of the Church. They shall have their reward.

Of course, they might come back and say, "But you were contentious and that's of the devil!!!" (whom they ironically serve) To which I repeat my question:

Which is worse, me contending against error or them leading away converts into apostasy?

So we should discuss their heresy with them as if they are not members of the true Church. In fact, I'm thinking they're just Snuffer plants that came to do what? Stir up contention.

Yesterday was a long day - after completing a work shift then drove 8 hours back to family residence - then for some reason I felt I had to deal with their zombie scripture interpretations.
You are correct they are not confused but dishonest - no honest person can misquote scripture so badly. They misquote the GA and use the same perverted scriptural interpretations as all the other snufferites and apostates that I have dealt with over the years on this forum... My answers are not for their benefit - but the innocent caught up in their lies and web of deceit.

Their inability to understand a single mortal probation is all that is required is because they are overcome by the things of this world, and so they teach one needs many mortal probation's to overcome the natural man and gain mastery of their own souls.

[Kingdom of ZION]

It is simply stunning that any LDS would so discount the atonement. As for the non LDS it isn't that much of a surprise. Alaris may attend the LDS church, but he certainly does not believe the doctrines. For you lurkers: He can scream as loudly as he likes that he is LDS and believes in LDS doctrines, but he has clearly (and cleverly) shown he does not believe in LDS doctrine. If you wish to follow his heresy you are free to do so, just be honest with yourselves (unlike alaris) and know that you are not following LDS doctrine.

I guess you have lived a very sheltered life! I have known a few Christians that can put most LDS saints to shame in the Atonement department. Dumitru Duduman, a Russian Immigrant in the 1990's, comes to mind. There are many more people like him, who risked everything, even there lives to being the knowledge of the Atonement to an oppressed people. He snuggled bibles by the thousands into Russia during the cold war years.

You comment made no sense regarding my comment. I am far from sheltered.

Come on Mirkwood, keep up.... "As for the non LDS it isn't that much of a surprise." So just who do you think Non-LDS are? Aliens?

[mirkwood]

Come on Mirkwood, keep up.... "As for the non LDS it isn't that much of a surprise." So just who do you think Non-LDS are? Aliens?

You're still not making any sense.

[gardener4life]

It is simply stunning that any LDS would so discount the atonement. As for the non LDS it isn't that much of a surprise. Alaris may attend the LDS church, but he certainly does not believe the doctrines. For you lurkers: He can scream as loudly as he likes that he is LDS and believes in LDS doctrines, but he has clearly (and cleverly) shown he does not believe in LDS doctrine. If you wish to follow his heresy you are free to do so, just be honest with yourselves (unlike alaris) and know that you are not following LDS doctrine.

I guess you have lived a very sheltered life! I have known a few Christians that can put most LDS saints to shame in the Atonement department. Dumitru Duduman, a Russian Immigrant in the 1990's, comes to mind. There are many more people like him, who risked everything, even there lives to being the knowledge of the Atonement to an oppressed people. He snuggled bibles by the thousands into Russia during the cold war years.

You comment made no sense regarding my comment. I am far from sheltered.

Come on Mirkwood, keep up.... "As for the non LDS it isn't that much of a surprise." So just who do you think Non-LDS are? Aliens?

You know This guy Dumitru Duduman... stories like that are wonderful and to be shared.

But we're not supposed to be at odds with one another. We're proving ourselves to the Savior for our own faith and not for others. So the idea that someone puts one group to shame isn't consistent with what Christ taught. We want to honor anyone that does good. Think; Good or evil. We want to think good and evil, not sect versus sect.

So we can honor this Dumitru guy as a hero. It doesn't matter what sect he is. It doesn't matter where Joan of Arc was from or what sect. We honor anyone who acts in courage of Faith. And we can claim those people regardless of background because if they were that courageous they will be in the Celestial Kingdom because of their being valiant in faith.

I don't really like the idea that we're using people from history against faith, either ours or anyone elses. Instead we should focus on showing how they are Christ like in courage and we can be like them too.

I saw an interesting scripture recently it was either in the Book of Mormon or the Bible I forgot which. But it said something along the lines of Satan stirreth up the house of Israel to war against itself. So he's trying to get Josephites, Israelites, and lost house of Israel to war against EACH other, not against non-Israel. (Classic war tactic; divide my enemy against itself and kill through friendly fire.)

[Silver]

President Nelson in October 2107 talk quoted below. Note how Snuffer and other apostates have their knees chopped out from under them, deservedly so.

"The Book of Mormon both illuminates the teachings of the Master and exposes the tactics of the adversary.7 The Book of Mormon teaches true doctrine to dispel false religious traditions—such as the erroneous practice of performing infant baptisms.8 The Book of Mormon gives purpose to life by urging us to ponder the potential of eternal life and “never-ending happiness.”9"

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... t?lang=eng

[Spaced_Out]

President Nelson in October 2107 talk quoted below. Note how Snuffer and other apostates have their knees chopped out from under them, deservedly so.

"The Book of Mormon both illuminates the teachings of the Master and exposes the tactics of the adversary.7 The Book of Mormon teaches true doctrine to dispel false religious traditions—such as the erroneous practice of performing infant baptisms.8 The Book of Mormon gives purpose to life by urging us to ponder the potential of eternal life and “never-ending happiness.”9"

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... t?lang=eng

The BoM is truly a warning of the methods the evil one uses esp 2Nephi 28:7, no need to overcome the world it cant be done there will be many more chances.. - Thus they are lead down to hell..

7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

Had an interesting day at Church today, SS lesson on the creation, and a discussion on the city of Enoch. How does that fit into MMP city taken into heaven all translated to come down at the last days. They all overcame the world and the world could not hold them any more....

High Priest discussion was on Elder Jeffrey R. Holland talk on "Be Ye Therefore Perfect—Eventually" It is through Christ we are perfected..

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him … ,” Moroni pleads. “Love God with all your might, mind and strength, then … by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ.”9 Our only hope for true perfection is in receiving it as a gift from heaven—we can’t “earn” it. Thus, the grace of Christ offers us not only salvation from sorrow and sin and death but also salvation from our own persistent self-criticism.

[Spaced_Out]

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... uote]Today I repeat earlier counsel from Church leaders.

Brothers and sisters, keep the doctrine of Christ pure and never be deceived by those who tamper with the doctrine. The gospel of the Father and the Son was restored through Joseph Smith, the prophet for this last dispensation.

Do not listen to those who have not been ordained and/or set apart to their Church calling and are not acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church.

Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand.
Do not listen to those who entice you with get-rich schemes. Our members have lost far too much money, so be careful.

In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge in expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Come on Mirkwood, keep up.... "As for the non LDS it isn't that much of a surprise." So just who do you think Non-LDS are? Aliens?

You're still not making any sense.

Your the one who said: "As for the non LDS it isn't that much of a surprise." Look up above here two or so post and read what your own words said... that you said yesterday or so!

I commented upon you snide remark pointed at Non-LDS, by speaking about Christians, who by the way ARE the Non-LDS here!

If you need for me to explain it further, I think your going to need a dictionary, and someone to read it to you?