Multiple Mortal Probations Article

[Spaced_Out]

I have been prompted to engage with those who have been lead down the "we have enough" path until they are stuck in contention, condemnation, and to the inability to invite anyone to pray over this principle. Though this has been humorous to watch, the truth is those who have attempted to silence me and others through insults, angry faces, condemnation, and fear by attacking anyone who chimes in are bound to the adversary--a sad reality. The fruits of the adversary are clear to see in those who clearly can't help themselves. The refusals to invite others to pray on this matter is a sad display of those chains detailed in Alma 12:10-11. The fact there are saints who clearly embrace this truth along with all the words of the prophets and apostles and the scriptures that reinforce this truth should be witness enough to go to God with your own questions in humility. That is the open invitation I leave to all as we learn in James 1:5, D&C 9, and Moroni 10:3-5.

God has prompted you to teach a doctrine different to that of the LDS prophets - you worship and pray to a false God, the only people who support you are known ant-LDS and those who stone the prophets and you revel in their fellowship.

Well that last statement is a lie and easily demonstrated in this thread - and I don't think I convinced a single one of them of MMP - they discovered the truth all on their own. So to say they support me is yet another layer of dishonesty.

I think we've already demonstrated the spirit with which you've enlisted, but thank you for underscoring.

You are deceived, no they did not discover the false doctrine on their own. It has been taught and published - by ant-LDS for very many decades -all those who have proposed this doctrine have ended up out of the LDS Church. Look at any anit-Mormon teachings online and you will find very many teachings on MMP. Look in the true church and you will find non - I previously listed a number of recent talks by apostles on the subject - you reject them but accept LDS apostate tachings with open arms.

[Spaced_Out]

64 Whatsoever ye ask the Father in my name it shall be given unto you, that is expedient for you;
65 And if ye ask anything that is not expedient for you, it shall turn unto your condemnation.

This is a hilarious attempt to both scare people away from praying about this and to justify this spirit of "do not pray" Spaced_Out has promulgated! Spaced_Out would have you be afraid to ask whether something is true because if you should know better than you are condemned!

Obviously that's not what the Lord meant here. Here is the definition of "expedient:"

Expedient
Appropriate to a purpose.
https://www.wordnik.com/words/expedient

So is it appropriate to ask whether something is true? Of course it is. What may be something inappropriate to ask for? Well here are some examples:

• Sin
• Justification of Sin
• Avoidance of Repentance
• Asking whether something is true - oops not that
• etc.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Yes do indeed read the words of the Apostle's and the scriptures they teach on the subject and get a sure knowledge of the principle of one mortal probation.
Do not read alaris anti-LDS doctrine - go to the source of truth first then one will know with a sure knowledge concerning the principle of one mortal probation.

If one starts a study on a gospel subject and starts reading writings from those not authorised to speak and establish doctrine - the person will be lead down crocked paths to hell...

[Alaris]

Alright Spaced_Out. I came to the conclusion of MMP on my own as did others, so that's just yet another misstatement we can add to your list. I would be happy to share how I came to the conclusion, though the logic train I present in my article really captures that process that many undergo when they seek out the mysteries rather than attempt to stop others from discovering them through seeking, pondering, and prayer.

This has been a very interesting exercise, but I am looking forward to engaging in productive discussions. I am sorry this engagement has angered you, but I submit to you that I am not the source of the anger but that spirit that leads you to justify your contentious behavior and your scaring people away from prayer.

I'll leave you with an invitation to pray along with a few scriptures to underscore the invitation. You are being led by the ears to kick against the pricks and fight against God and his truth.

Moroni 7:48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Mosiah 4:2 And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men

Alma 36:18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.
19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.
20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

Alma 34:38 That ye contend no more against the Holy Ghost, but that ye receive it, and take upon you the name of Christ; that ye humble yourselves even to the dust, and worship God, in whatsoever place ye may be in, in spirit and in truth; and that ye live in thanksgiving daily, for the many mercies and blessings which he doth bestow upon you.
39 Yea, and I also exhort you, my brethren, that ye be watchful unto prayer continually, that ye may not be led away by the temptations of the devil, that he may not overpower you, that ye may not become his subjects at the last day; for behold, he rewardeth you no good thing.
40 And now my beloved brethren, I would exhort you to have patience, and that ye bear with all manner of afflictions; that ye do not revile against those who do cast you out because of your exceeding poverty, lest ye become sinners like unto them;
41 But that ye have patience, and bear with those afflictions, with a firm hope that ye shall one day rest from all your afflictions.

I do not condemn you brother but invite you to cast away that spirit who teaches man not to pray and to follow the words of the prophets above - you will receive that joy and gladness that has been missing in your life as is evidenced by the spirit of your posts.

[mirkwood]

As a general comment to anyone still reading this thread, Multiple Mortal Probations is of the meat variety rather than milk. heresy.

Fixed that for the lurkers. No that is not what alaris said or believes, but I corrected the information. MMP is NOT a doctrine of the LDS church or a part of the Gospel. Heretics may spew what they want, but it has been shown conclusively that MMP is heresy to the LDS church.

Obviously this article is not intended for the investigator or worse - those who bound to the adversary by the "we have enough" path, for the investigator is at least seeking in humility.

As you can see, alaris attempts to belittle anyone who does not agree with his heresy. He makes up statements about what the opponents of heresy believe. There is no humility in alaris. None.

[Spaced_Out]

Hear are some basic doctrine for alaris so he can get on the right path.

Baptism is symbolic of the death burial and resurrection of Christ - if we repent we become like Him and are raise with the same resurrection as Him never to taste death again and get eternal life as we are dead to sin..

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

[Spaced_Out]

Alright Spaced_Out. I came to the conclusion of MMP on my own as did others, so that's just yet another misstatement we can add to your list.

This has been a very interesting exercise, but I am looking forward to engaging in productive discussions. I am sorry this engagement has angered you, but I submit to you that I am not the source of the anger but that spirit that leads you to justify your contentious behavior and your scaring people away from prayer.

I'll leave you with an invitation to pray along with a few scriptures to underscore the invitation. You are being led by the ears to kick against the pricks and fight against God and his truth.

I do not condemn you brother but invite you to cast away that spirit who teaches man not to pray and to follow the words of the prophets above - you will receive that joy and gladness that has been missing in your life as is evidenced by the spirit of your posts.

Anger is a God given ability and needs to be used wisely - you have such a very poor understanding of the basic principles of the gospel.
We need to be angry with those that teach false doctrine. I have personally felt the anger of the Lord - the Mater can indeed be angry and convey that feeling. Stop preaching lies and people will stop getting angry with you..

Doctrine and Covenants 109:30-31
30 And that all their works may be brought to naught, and be swept away by the hail, and by the judgments which thou wilt send upon them in thine anger, that there may be an end to lyings and slanders against thy people.

[Alaris]

Alright Spaced_Out. I came to the conclusion of MMP on my own as did others, so that's just yet another misstatement we can add to your list.

This has been a very interesting exercise, but I am looking forward to engaging in productive discussions. I am sorry this engagement has angered you, but I submit to you that I am not the source of the anger but that spirit that leads you to justify your contentious behavior and your scaring people away from prayer.

I'll leave you with an invitation to pray along with a few scriptures to underscore the invitation. You are being led by the ears to kick against the pricks and fight against God and his truth.

I do not condemn you brother but invite you to cast away that spirit who teaches man not to pray and to follow the words of the prophets above - you will receive that joy and gladness that has been missing in your life as is evidenced by the spirit of your posts.

Anger is a God given ability and needs to be used wisely - you have such a very poor understanding of the basic principles of the gospel.
We need to be angry with those that teach false doctrine. I have personally felt the anger of the Lord - the Mater can indeed be angry and convey that feeling. Stop preaching lies and people will stop getting angry with you..

Doctrine and Covenants 109:30-31
30 And that all their works may be brought to naught, and be swept away by the hail, and by the judgments which thou wilt send upon them in thine anger, that there may be an end to lyings and slanders against thy people.

I have a poor understanding of the gospel? D&C 109:30-31 is from a prayer to appeal to the Lord for His justice and anger - not a justification of their own anger and condemnation. Here is a lesson in the basic Gospel of Jesus Christ - the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Both the JST and the Lord's teaching from the most correct book on Earth omit "without a cause:"

3 Nephi 12:22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Again the scriptures reinforce the truth of this thread. You've at least admitted you are angry. Recognition is the first step, and you'll need to recognize that this anger is a problem.

[Spaced_Out]

I have a poor understanding of the gospel? D&C 109:30-31 is from a prayer to appeal to the Lord for His justice and anger - not a justification of their own anger and condemnation. Here is a lesson in the basic Gospel of Jesus Christ - the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Both the JST and the Lord's teaching from the most correct book on Earth omit "without a cause:"

3 Nephi 12:22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Again the scriptures reinforce the truth of this thread. You've at least admitted you are angry. Recognition is the first step, and you'll need to recognize that this anger is a problem.

No at aghast at the arrogance and false teachings and blatant denial of the gospel. Anger against those that have a better knowledge but purposefully teach false doctrine and pervert the teachings of Christ - those angry faces were against a very badly and purposefully deceitful interpretation of the prophet - claiming false teachings from the prophet.

Alma 46:11 And now it came to pass that when Moroni, who was the chief commander of the armies of the Nephites, had heard of these dissensions, he was angry with Amalickiah.
12 And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.
13 And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land—
14 For thus were all the true believers of Christ, who belonged to the church of God, called by those who did not belong to the church.

I stand with Moroni a defender of the faith, angry with those that decent. Yes your understanding of anger is poor - as always you use scripture out of context. This is out of context of this thread and alas I think you are a lost case you have no desire to heed the counsel of the prophets but continue in your arrogance - teaching that which is contrary to the gospel.

[Alaris]

I have a poor understanding of the gospel? D&C 109:30-31 is from a prayer to appeal to the Lord for His justice and anger - not a justification of their own anger and condemnation. Here is a lesson in the basic Gospel of Jesus Christ - the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Both the JST and the Lord's teaching from the most correct book on Earth omit "without a cause:"

3 Nephi 12:22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Again the scriptures reinforce the truth of this thread. You've at least admitted you are angry. Recognition is the first step, and you'll need to recognize that this anger is a problem.

No at aghast at the arrogance and false teachings and blatant denial of the gospel. Anger against those that have a better knowledge but purposefully teach false doctrine and pervert the teachings of Christ - those angry faces were against a very badly and purposefully deceitful interpretation of the prophet - claiming false teachings from the prophet.

Alma 46:11 And now it came to pass that when Moroni, who was the chief commander of the armies of the Nephites, had heard of these dissensions, he was angry with Amalickiah.
12 And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.
13 And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land—
14 For thus were all the true believers of Christ, who belonged to the church of God, called by those who did not belong to the church.

I stand with Moroni a defender of the faith, angry with those that decent. Yes your understanding of anger is poor - as always you use scripture out of context. This is out of context of this thread and alas I think you are a lost case you have no desire to heed the counsel of the prophets but continue in your arrogance - teaching that which is contrary to the gospel.

Sure Spaced_Out. It's me that's twisting everything to justify my wrath .. no wait I'm not upset. Your continued attempts to incite me to stoop to your level of writhing anger have not yet succeeded nor will they. For the truth is comfortable all on its own and does not need angry advocates to just be.

I'm bemused by just how plain and obvious the spirit of the adversary has to be by nature for your attempts to stifle the truth would have been better had you incorporated more of the fruits of the spirit, but you cannot serve God and Mammon. It's an impossibility. This is why you've hysterically attempted to use fear to scare people away from praying about MMP. Not only do not pray, but you should be afraid to pray about truth. LOL! If Captain Moroni were standing next to you, I think you'd be surprised where his Chuch Norris glare would be leveled - actually no, I take that back. You know you have been deceived for you cannot be neck deep in this filth and be completely unaware of the spirit that has you bound in chains. This is why you are so angry. You are bound in chains + I point it out = Anger. Simple. Here's another scripture in context:

1 Nephi 16:2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.

Edit: I will offer another attempt to disengage you now Spaced_Out. I'm sorry you're angry, though for what it's worth I am grateful for this extremely illuminating display of the spirit of contention. You can continue to accuse me falsely and revile me but it is God who will judge me and who will judge you. I only ask that you pray in humility and seek his mind and will rather than your own.

Alaris

[Spaced_Out]

I have a poor understanding of the gospel? D&C 109:30-31 is from a prayer to appeal to the Lord for His justice and anger - not a justification of their own anger and condemnation. Here is a lesson in the basic Gospel of Jesus Christ - the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Both the JST and the Lord's teaching from the most correct book on Earth omit "without a cause:"

3 Nephi 12:22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Again the scriptures reinforce the truth of this thread. You've at least admitted you are angry. Recognition is the first step, and you'll need to recognize that this anger is a problem.

No at aghast at the arrogance and false teachings and blatant denial of the gospel. Anger against those that have a better knowledge but purposefully teach false doctrine and pervert the teachings of Christ - those angry faces were against a very badly and purposefully deceitful interpretation of the prophet - claiming false teachings from the prophet.

Alma 46:11 And now it came to pass that when Moroni, who was the chief commander of the armies of the Nephites, had heard of these dissensions, he was angry with Amalickiah.
12 And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.
13 And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land—
14 For thus were all the true believers of Christ, who belonged to the church of God, called by those who did not belong to the church.

I stand with Moroni a defender of the faith, angry with those that decent. Yes your understanding of anger is poor - as always you use scripture out of context. This is out of context of this thread and alas I think you are a lost case you have no desire to heed the counsel of the prophets but continue in your arrogance - teaching that which is contrary to the gospel.

Sure Spaced_Out. It's me that's twisting everything to justify my wrath .. no wait I'm not upset. Your continued attempts to incite me to stoop to your level of writhing anger have not yet succeeded nor will they. For the truth is comfortable all on its own and does not need angry advocates to just be.

I'm bemused by just how plain and obvious the spirit of the adversary has to be by nature for your attempts to stifle the truth would have been better had you incorporated more of the fruits of the spirit, but you cannot serve God and Mammon. It's an impossibility. This is why you've hysterically attempted to use fear to scare people away from praying about MMP. Not only do not pray, but you should be afraid to pray about truth. LOL! If Captain Moroni were standing next to you, I think you'd be surprised where his Chuch Norris glare would be leveled - actually no, I take that back. You know you have been deceived for you cannot be neck deep in this filth and be completely unaware of the spirit that has you bound in chains. This is why you are so angry. You are bound in chains + I point it out = Anger. Simple. Here's another scripture in context:

1 Nephi 16:2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.

Edit: I will offer another attempt to disengage you now Spaced_Out. I'm sorry you're angry, though for what it's worth I am grateful for this extremely illuminating display of the spirit of contention. You can continue to accuse me falsely and revile me but it is God who will judge me and who will judge you. I only ask that you pray in humility and seek his mind and will rather your own.

Alaris

I hope you maintain that spirit of I am right everybody else is wrong when you church membership comes into the balance for teaching heresy and leading the people astray.

[Silver]

Can somebody please tell me why alaris won't answer the very simple question of whom he likes more, Julie Rowe or Denver Snuffer? If I'm left to guess on my own, I'm going with Denver Snuffer. In fact, maybe alaris is Snuffer, posting under an alaris, I mean, alias.

[Silver]

Wheat = true followers of Jesus and the prophets and, importantly, their teachings
Tares = those who for a while pretend that they are faithful members of the Church while actually planning and committing rebellion against God

All one needs to do to figure out which of those two terms best describe alaris is to go back and read his earliest posts. He admits that he's returned from an excommunication but writes openly of his disgust with his leaders. Does that sound like a humble person to you? More importantly, does that sound like a man to whom God would give a radically different revelation like Multiple Mortality Probation?

The prophets do not teach Multiple Mortality Probation. So alaris may pretend that he received a revelation about it but that heresy is, by definition, something coming from a tare.

Have you noticed that alaris' posts have become snarkier and snarkier while insisting that we pray about his heresy? Do the words "unrighteous dominion" mean anything to y'all? Who was going to force us to be good? Remember Satan promised to provide preachers for Adam and Eve that taught the philosophies of man, mingled with scripture. We have been forced to defend against the heresies of alaris for 22 pages now and he accuses us of being contentious. What a joke. It must be opposite month on LDSFF.

[abijah]

that Allah is the one true god

I believe that.

Allah, hebrew transl. ---> El, Elah, Elohim

[Spaced_Out]

Wheat = true followers of Jesus and the prophets and, importantly, their teachings
Tares = those who for a while pretend that they are faithful members of the Church while actually planning and committing rebellion against God

All one needs to do to figure out which of those two terms best describe alaris is to go back and read his earliest posts. He admits that he's returned from an excommunication but writes openly of his disgust with his leaders. Does that sound like a humble person to you? More importantly, does that sound like a man to whom God would give a radically different revelation like Multiple Mortality Probation?

How alaris can still pretend that his teachings on MMP or "Davitic servant/strong and mighty one" are actually LDS teachings just more meat or detailed doctrine, is astonishing beyond all belief.

No one can preach MMP without being ether anti-Mormon (stirring up trouble for the fun of it, keeps the thread going to have a good laugh). Or one who genuinely believes they are teaching LDS doctrine - which after all the quotes given by the prophets on the subject!! they must be suffering from some extreme form of psychiatric disorder. I suppose a third option is that there is both an issue with having a psychiatric disorder and being anti-Mormon.

[thaabit]

After having read a number of comments in this thread, I just want to say that I know Alaris personally and he's a genuine Mormon and seeker of truth. Yes, he's my friend and I'm biased. But your fallacious arguments to try to disparage his character are overstated and expose more of your own tendencies to dismiss and belittle. Many others have talked about the DS and MMP who are faithful, active latter-day saints (including Joseph Smith as well). Of course these ideas, true or not, haven't been openly taught in GC. Of course his bishop prob wouldn't even know what he was talking about if he presented it to him. But he's not trying to get a following and staking his membership on this. He's simply researching ideas and presenting his results for others to discuss. And trying to lump him in with Julie Rowe and/or Denver Snuffer is ridiculous. In the case of Julie Rowe, the last I knew she was still a faithful member, even though the church has disavowed her opinions as her own and not the church's. He has made no claim to the type of revelation that they proclaim, rather made some doctrinal assertions with evidence from the scriptures and words of the prophets. The canon isn't sealed, the sealed portion hasn't been revealed--what currently untaught doctrine might it contain? My experience in the church has shown me there are those who believe the canon is closed, that no major doctrine will ever be revealed again, that we have the the fulness of truth. I submit that this is false as evidenced by the scriptures themselves proclaiming an open canon (refer to all scriptures about the sealed portion).

Now, on MMPs:
MMP may be true or false, there is definitely evidence both ways, and I don't see how you can't remain a faithful member while deliberating both possibilities. It does make a lot of sense logically, but not everything is logical. This whole notion of we're here to "get a body" so it can be resurrected isn't scriptural, at least that I've discovered. What of children who die in childbirth? Is their eternal fate sealed by that mere act? If they proved faithful prior to coming here, how did they do that? Was it in a mortal probation or something else? When JS said it would be a great while before we learned our exaltation after this life, what is the manner in which we learn that? If God can embody our spirit once, why couldn't he do it a second time? If MMP is true, why wouldn't it be taught openly? Well, maybe it's best for ppl not to know who might just decide to give up on this probation and wait for another What's the point of the veil? Why do we need to forget? Could it be that it helps our progression when we think this is all we got? Many of the truths we have received were when we found things that didn't add up and asked about them. There's so much we don't know. I personally want to know, and I seek out these things. But I root myself in the gospel first, and then venture into the darkness a bit. As JS said, we are not condemned for believing too much, but we *are* condemned for disbelief.

In the end, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just want to say Alaris is a good dude and a faithful member.

[Silver]

After having read a number of comments in this thread, I just want to say that I know Alaris personally and he's a genuine Mormon and seeker of truth. Yes, he's my friend and I'm biased. But your fallacious arguments to try to disparage his character are overstated and expose more of your own tendencies to dismiss and belittle. Many others have talked about the DS and MMP who are faithful, active latter-day saints (including Joseph Smith as well). Of course these ideas, true or not, haven't been openly taught in GC. Of course his bishop prob wouldn't even know what he was talking about if he presented it to him. But he's not trying to get a following and staking his membership on this. He's simply researching ideas and presenting his results for others to discuss. And trying to lump him in with Julie Rowe and/or Denver Snuffer is ridiculous. In the case of Julie Rowe, the last I knew she was still a faithful member, even though the church has disavowed her opinions as her own and not the church's. He has made no claim to the type of revelation that they proclaim, rather made some doctrinal assertions with evidence from the scriptures and words of the prophets. The canon isn't sealed, the sealed portion hasn't been revealed--what currently untaught doctrine might it contain? My experience in the church has shown me there are those who believe the canon is closed, that no major doctrine will ever be revealed again, that we have the the fulness of truth. I submit that this is false as evidenced by the scriptures themselves proclaiming an open canon (refer to all scriptures about the sealed portion).

Now, on MMPs:
MMP may be true or false, there is definitely evidence both ways, and I don't see how you can't remain a faithful member while deliberating both possibilities. It does make a lot of sense logically, but not everything is logical. This whole notion of we're here to "get a body" so it can be resurrected isn't scriptural, at least that I've discovered. What of children who die in childbirth? Is their eternal fate sealed by that mere act? If they proved faithful prior to coming here, how did they do that? Was it in a mortal probation or something else? When JS said it would be a great while before we learned our exaltation after this life, what is the manner in which we learn that? If God can embody our spirit once, why couldn't he do it a second time? If MMP is true, why wouldn't it be taught openly? Well, maybe it's best for ppl not to know who might just decide to give up on this probation and wait for another What's the point of the veil? Why do we need to forget? Could it be that it helps our progression when we think this is all we got? Many of the truths we have received were when we found things that didn't add up and asked about them. There's so much we don't know. I personally want to know, and I seek out these things. But I root myself in the gospel first, and then venture into the darkness a bit. As JS said, we are not condemned for believing too much, but we *are* condemned for disbelief.

In the end, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just want to say Alaris is a good dude and a faithful member.

Open/closed canon? Show us a post by any of us who know that MMP is heresy that claimed the heavens are closed and there will be no more revelation. I specifically quoted the 9th Article of Faith (We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.) and commented that I look forward to new revelations. However, I am secure in the knowledge that those new revelations will not come via a heretic like alaris.

You know all about Julie Rowe and Denver Snuffer, do you? How convenient. A Julie Rowe sock puppet was on here just a few days ago talking about MMP. Guilty by association.

Thanks for playing, thaabit, but you lose. Don't worry; we have some lovely parting gifts for you backstage.

[Silver]

thaabit, I get it now...

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45353&p=780204#p780204

[Elizabeth]

Name?

A Julie Rowe sock puppet was on here just a few days ago talking about MMP.

[Silver]

Name?

A Julie Rowe sock puppet was on here just a few days ago talking about MMP.

Hello, Elizabeth,
The name is Emwhisman. She posted here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47419&start=60#p830618

[simpleton]

Many imbibe [conceive] the idea that they are capable of leading out in teaching principles that never have been taught. They are not aware that the moment they give way to this hallucination the Devil has power over them to lead them onto unholy ground; though this is a lesson which they ought to have learned long ago, yet it is one that was learned by but few in the days of Joseph (DBY, 77–78).

[Alaris]

On Spencer. I personally learned a lot from his story. Those who disagree with him is fine with me. Everyone has their own belief system. But when people begin to talk mess about him - I think those people need to be more humble and respect those who receive visions, dreams etc. Especially, when it is obvious that the Church leaders are not saying anything negative about him. He is a bishop. That should tell you something. Who cares what FAIR (and others) has to say.

Is he OMS? Again, I stay away from this topic due to the fact that no one is going to know until it is obvious to everyone. The discussion on OMS is pointless because it has gone around circles ever since the church began.

Sure, stick to the thread topic!

Good points all around, except the OMS may not be obvious... At least at first.

The scriptures teach us to read by the Spirit. This is certainly a book anyone can pray about and come to their own conclusions. There was a good point about Spencers importance being reflected by his office; however imho the OMS is the Davidic Servant or Messiah Ben David. As King of Israel he will have the right to assign inherentances for all of Israel ala D&C 85:7. Nothing in Visions of Glory seems to indicate such a position for Spencer as I recall.

So where in the scriptures does it talk about multiple mortal probation?

I'll give you a few because I'm nice like that.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

3 Nephi 12:48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect

D&C 93:3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—

4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.

5 I was in the world and received of my Father, and the works of him were plainly manifest.

6 And John saw and bore record of the fulness of my glory, and the fulness of John’s record is hereafter to be revealed.

7 And he bore record, saying: I saw his glory, that he was in the beginning, before the world was;

8 Therefore, in the beginning the Word was, for he was the Word, even the messenger of salvation—

9 The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men.

10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John. (Notice how many MMP scriptures either reference John or are from John)

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

D&C 132:24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

[Silver]

On Spencer. I personally learned a lot from his story. Those who disagree with him is fine with me. Everyone has their own belief system. But when people begin to talk mess about him - I think those people need to be more humble and respect those who receive visions, dreams etc. Especially, when it is obvious that the Church leaders are not saying anything negative about him. He is a bishop. That should tell you something. Who cares what FAIR (and others) has to say.

Is he OMS? Again, I stay away from this topic due to the fact that no one is going to know until it is obvious to everyone. The discussion on OMS is pointless because it has gone around circles ever since the church began.

Sure, stick to the thread topic!

Good points all around, except the OMS may not be obvious... At least at first.

The scriptures teach us to read by the Spirit. This is certainly a book anyone can pray about and come to their own conclusions. There was a good point about Spencers importance being reflected by his office; however imho the OMS is the Davidic Servant or Messiah Ben David. As King of Israel he will have the right to assign inherentances for all of Israel ala D&C 85:7. Nothing in Visions of Glory seems to indicate such a position for Spencer as I recall.

So where in the scriptures does it talk about multiple mortal probation?

I'll give you a few because I'm nice like that.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

3 Nephi 12:48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect

D&C 93:3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—

4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.

5 I was in the world and received of my Father, and the works of him were plainly manifest.

6 And John saw and bore record of the fulness of my glory, and the fulness of John’s record is hereafter to be revealed.

7 And he bore record, saying: I saw his glory, that he was in the beginning, before the world was;

8 Therefore, in the beginning the Word was, for he was the Word, even the messenger of salvation—

9 The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men.

10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John. (Notice how many MMP scriptures either reference John or are from John)

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

D&C 132:24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

You may be nice, but you're wrong. Those scriptures you quote do not justify your heretical interpretation of MMP.

[gardener4life]

I wonder if maybe people misinterpret MMP when they like have a dream of a future Heavenly Father will give them in the future?

Like let's say hypothetically you have a dream where Heavenly Father gives you a new future (in part because your temporal state here on Earth is being destroyed by Satan)...wouldn't it look like and seem like a new life? But it might not be the same thing. Also if you had a dream about the future, it would be hard to tell if its something that happened in the past of future, or a conditional what would have happened if people in your family had decided to be good, but they didn't.

Also from someone's comment above I would say also that people really do have dreams and visions sometimes when Heavenly Father lets them; like what Marco said above.

Also I'm thinking this thread has a run for the longest ever based its current progress.

[Alaris]

Alma 41 becomes completely meaningless if you have MMP. For to which of the many bodies shall a person be restored in the resurrection, since Alma exclaims to his son, that "the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself"? And to whom would a person be sealed in the eternities if during each of their MMPs they are sealed to someone? There is a time to prepare for the next life. It is this life. And there is a time to complete the process of perfection. It is the millennium. God is not the author of confusion. MMP is simply rubbish, and the only scriptures that supposedly support it do so by wresting them. Truly, those looking for this new doctrine are exactly what Elder Cook described as "looking beyond the mark."

It's actually quite the opposite. The only way to rule out MMP is by wresting the scriptures:

Wresting example: Well Jesus doesn't mean be perfect ... right? And He certainly doesn't mean be perfect as He is perfect right? He can't mean we'll do His works and greater works than His right? I mean Jesus did only what He saw the Father do, but He must mean something else, right? We must become "perfect" by changing the definition and by some other way. There must be two paths to exaltation to Godhood - the path that the Saviors take and the path everyone else takes!

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

These are truths that can and should be prayed about. It's one thing to not understand all the mysteries - clearly some on LDSFF have that privilege - it's another to say what the scriptures can't mean.

Alma 41 is not meaningless given the context of an immortal state. That state is endless just as Adam's state was endless ... before it wasn't endless anymore.

[Silver]

Alma 41 becomes completely meaningless if you have MMP. For to which of the many bodies shall a person be restored in the resurrection, since Alma exclaims to his son, that "the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself"? And to whom would a person be sealed in the eternities if during each of their MMPs they are sealed to someone? There is a time to prepare for the next life. It is this life. And there is a time to complete the process of perfection. It is the millennium. God is not the author of confusion. MMP is simply rubbish, and the only scriptures that supposedly support it do so by wresting them. Truly, those looking for this new doctrine are exactly what Elder Cook described as "looking beyond the mark."

It's actually quite the opposite. The only way to rule out MMP is by wresting the scriptures. Well Jesus doesn't mean be perfect ... right? And He certainly doesn't mean be perfect as He is perfect right? He can't mean we'll do His works and greater works than His right? I mean Jesus did only what He saw the Father do, but He must mean something else, right? We must become "perfect" by changing the definition and by some other way. There must be two paths to exaltation to Godhood - the path that the Saviors take and the path everyone else takes!

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

These are truths that can and should be prayed about.

One more time, for the children, we prayed. MMP is false.