Multiple Mortal Probations Article

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Alaris
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Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Alaris »

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... tions.html

Enjoy! Please feel free to comment with questions and even challenges. I just ask that the tone be respectful so we can keep the spirit of contention out of our discussions. Thank you.

Alaris
Last edited by Alaris on December 26th, 2017, 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Alaris
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations

Post by Alaris »

SAM wrote: December 26th, 2017, 10:04 pm alaris, I've spent the day on a road trip, reading your posts on the levels of mankind. Lots of really interesting info! Thanks for taking time to write out all of the things you've studied and learned. I've believed in MMP for some time now. However, I've never studied or thought about it in such depth. You've done a lot of work so that's very kind of you to share your insights.

One question I have for you is what you believe happens to people who don't progress to higher rungs on Jacob's ladder. It makes sense that as people continue to ascend, less and less people make it to the higher levels. However, that leaves a lot of people on the lower levels. Do you believe they just keep going back down to other probations, do they rest, do they at some point just stop progressing? I have my theories but I'm curious how you think it works.
(I'm quoting SAM from another thread that's about the article posted in this thread.)

The short answer is I don't know. The more I learn the more I realize how important agency is. Baptisms for the dead isn't a design to compensate for a flaw in the system, baptisms for the dead are an important part of the system. BFTD give an opportunity for those who want to join Israel to join Israel through the only way to join Israel.... Adoption through baptism... So they may then be born into Israel in a subsequent creation imho.

That is why Israel is referred to as "the ransomed" past tense (Isaiah 51:10) because these are the souls who were adopted into Israel in a prior world and were ransomed into a new iteration. That's also why the Israelites in Moses day were not able to receive the higher law. It was not due to the sins of the parents causing Israelites to go without the higher law and priesthood for 1500 years, it was due to the fact it was the time of these younger souls whose first lessons were to learn the first law of heaven as given in the temple... The law of obedience.

I hope that helps set the stage to answer your question. Basically a choice is given to young souls if they want to continue on. What if they decide no? Would they then receive a final judgment and resurrection perhaps? Can this happen when a soul reaches a Terrestrial progression or even at some point in a celestial progression?

In my article linked above I show several scriptures that tie together the concept of eternal progression and sons of perdition. The sons of p didn't just hop off the train but started to attack it. However those same verses essentially say a soul must stay on that train to receive a fulness. Can they stop at any point and say ill keep what I've earned? I would think so. Are there certain points you'd have to see through? I believe so as well. Could Adam and Eve have said we will keep our world but choose not to consecrate it for our posterity and provide a vehicle for the ascension of Fathers spirits? I believe so. I don't think there's any point in the process where a decision is forced, however, I do believe all these decisions have eternal consequences. I also believe there is a point in the progression where souls no longer choose to rebel. I believe that is the test and trial to overcome to join the dispensation heads... The test that Lucifer himself failed epically. Archangels or dispensation heads do not rebel on up imho. They have received the presence of the Father and his name and no unclean thing can dwell in his presence.

Here's an interesting quote from Joseph Smith on how the Holy Ghost affects Israelites and Gentiles differently to reinforce the point I made earlier about adoption into Israel.
The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence. Joseph Smith T. 149-150

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inho
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by inho »

I read your article. I still don't accept MMP doctrine, but at least I now have a better idea of why you believe it. There were several points that I disagree with, but since we interpret the same source texts differently it is probably useless to argue about them.

However, let me point out some issues, were you might agree with me. These won't change your (or my) mind about the MMP, but are just comments or suggested improvements to the text.
You say:
The fact there is no scripture or officially declared doctrine stating multiple mortal probations is false is absolutely an evidence in the doctrine’s favor.
You must understand that this is a very poor argument. There is only one truth but countless falsehoods. Should there be an official declaration against every imaginable falsehood?
“As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be." (Lorenzo Snow, In Eliza R. Snow Smith, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow)

Lorenzo Snow is both a prophet and a man who was in close proximity to the prophet Joseph Smith. Many LDS try to dismiss this quote.
Just this week, I read the Gospel Topic Essay Becoming like God. I think it is interesting to note that even this official church publication shows some reservation towards the first part of the couplet:
Lorenzo Snow, the Church’s fifth President, coined a well-known couplet: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Little has been revealed about the first half of this couplet, and consequently little is taught. When asked about this topic, Church President Gordon B. Hinckley told a reporter in 1997, “That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.” When asked about the belief in humans’ divine potential, President Hinckley responded, “Well, as God is, man may become. We believe in eternal progression. Very strongly.”
Little is known about the first part, but we strongly believe in the second part.
So, if God was once like man and God once was a Savior, well then that’s at least two mortal probations!
This is your view, but most don't have any problem to say that only one probation is implied. God was once a savior, thus he was once like man. Of course that interpretation raises questions about destiny of us who are not saviors. You address that later in the article.


Since you only comment on scriptures and teachings of prophets and apostles, there are many issues that are left unanswered. For example, what is your personal view on the meaning of sealings in the MMP scheme? If a man and a woman are married for eternity in this probation, how does that work in the future probations?

Also, I would like to hear whether you see that the multiple probations occur in this same earth or in different worlds? In the Further Reading, you say this:
There is also a link to an excellent book called “Melchizedek Seal and Scroll” by Alan Mitchell who shares prophecies about “Melchizedek” that are about Jesus Christ as well as apocryphal works that indicates Melchizedek and Christ may be the same person!
If one can have several probations on this earth, then the “transmigration of souls” could in principle be possible.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Original_Intent »

I'm not sure about MMP. decades ago I spent months pondering what it would be like to be "just a smidge" short of celestial glory. I spent months pondering, praying, pondering, studying and frankly worrying. One day I got a very strong but quiet assurance that everyone would be given every opportunity to accept or reject every possible truth, essentially that everyone would be completely convinced and satisfied that the sphere that they ultimately end up in is where they truly belong and in truth want to be.

I have also since had some better understanding of the three degrees of glory. There really has to be a complete change of focus, there really is no such thing as being "just a smidge" from being in the celestial kingdom. You might be very high up in your respective kingdom, but being "just a bit better" would not bridge the gulf between the top of one kingdom and the bottom of another.

I'm open to the idea of MMP as the way we continue to be tested. We'll see.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by AI2.0 »

I've read your blog posting and comments on this.

Here's the problem.

If you are right, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is wrong. If the Church is right then you are wrong. You can't have it both ways, because the logic of your 'multiple mortal probations' doctrine does not square with LDS teachings, practices and beliefs and here's why.

You claim that we will live many, many lives, living on earth, then dying and returning to live another life. Apparently this is how we experience a process where we 'perfect' ourselves, as you interpreted Joseph Smith's comments on 'exaltation to exaltation' to mean (why I (and I'm certain his listeners at the time) did not read the same way--this is a problem with the quotes you offer up as 'proof'--you interpret them to support your belief, but I(and the majority of LDS) do not see any evidence that they support your MMP doctrine). With this doctrine of MMP, there is no need for a Savior. There is no need for an atonement because people are sent back to suffer and learn from their own experiences, thus saving themselves eventually as they 'perfect' themselves. According to this doctrine, we essentially 'save' ourselves...in time.

So, I see the doctrine of 'multiple mortal probations' as being 'Anti-christ' as it fully negates the need for a Savior, Redeemer and an atonement performed on our behalf. That's only necessary if THIS is the life that matters--as Alma teaches us in the Book of Mormon.

This doctrine also makes the ordinances performed in the temple for the living and the dead useless lies. If we live many lives, being married to numerous different spouses, having many different children over the years and finding ourselves belonging to different families, with different ancestors and different relatives, then the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday saints are false. We are NOT sealed for time and all eternity to one person, we don't have our children sealed to us for the eternities and we shouldn't bother doing our genealogy, as it will be of no effect in the lives to come, which we will live according to MMP.

If I believe your claims then I must recognize the the church is teaching cruel falsehoods, telling me I can be with my loved ones forever, because I was sealed to them in the temple, giving me a false hope. Worse than that, the members are wasting valuable time and resources doing temple work for people who don't need it done and actually shouldn't have it done. As per your claims, all the dead whom we do temple work for are going to return for more lives on earth and therefore, they will have plenty of chances to choose to be baptized and receive ordinances for themselves (if they are of any worth, since the whole baptism thing and accepting Christ is superfluous under your 'doctrine') and we should probably spend our time doing other more important things that actually matter to an existence of endless mortal lives.

So, here's my dilemna. I can believe the 'philosophies of Alaris....mingled with scripture' or I can believe the Doctrines and teachings of the LDS church, but I can't believe both, because they cannot be reconciled. Simple logic. The whole reason for a Savior is to save us from our sins. If we can continue to come back over and over to perfect ourselves, we don't need Jesus Christ. And everything we do in the temple is a fairy tale meant to make us feel good and not fear death. If we have to keep coming back over and over, then death is not the 'rest' that the Lord promises (another lie we are told) and when we lose our loved ones, they are lost to us as they move into new lives with new loved ones. Everything is as fleeting and temporary, disconnected and false as Satan claimed it would be when he first attempted to get us to follow him.

But my trust has always been in my Savior and so I believe the teachings of my LDS faith.

So, Alaris, be on notice that in preaching this, you are preaching doctrines which stand in contradiction of what our church teaches.

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Alaris
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Alaris »

AI2.0 wrote: December 27th, 2017, 10:20 am I've read your blog posting and comments on this.

Here's the problem.

If you are right, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is wrong. If the Church is right then you are wrong. You can't have it both ways, because the logic of your 'multiple mortal probations' doctrine does not square with LDS teachings, practices and beliefs and here's why.

You claim that we will live many, many lives, living on earth, then dying and returning to live another life. Apparently this is how we experience a process where we 'perfect' ourselves, as you interpreted Joseph Smith's comments on 'exaltation to exaltation' to mean (why I (and I'm certain his listeners at the time) did not read the same way--this is a problem with the quotes you offer up as 'proof'--you interpret them to support your belief, but I(and the majority of LDS) do not see any evidence that they support your MMP doctrine). With this doctrine of MMP, there is no need for a Savior. There is no need for an atonement because people are sent back to suffer and learn from their own experiences, thus saving themselves eventually as they 'perfect' themselves. According to this doctrine, we essentially 'save' ourselves...in time.

So, I see the doctrine of 'multiple mortal probations' as being 'Anti-christ' as it fully negates the need for a Savior, Redeemer and an atonement performed on our behalf. That's only necessary if THIS is the life that matters--as Alma teaches us in the Book of Mormon.

This doctrine also makes the ordinances performed in the temple for the living and the dead useless lies. If we live many lives, being married to numerous different spouses, having many different children over the years and finding ourselves belonging to different families, with different ancestors and different relatives, then the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday saints are false. We are NOT sealed for time and all eternity to one person, we don't have our children sealed to us for the eternities and we shouldn't bother doing our genealogy, as it will be of no effect in the lives to come, which we will live according to MMP.

If I believe your claims then I must recognize the the church is teaching cruel falsehoods, telling me I can be with my loved ones forever, because I was sealed to them in the temple, giving me a false hope. Worse than that, the members are wasting valuable time and resources doing temple work for people who don't need it done and actually shouldn't have it done. As per your claims, all the dead whom we do temple work for are going to return for more lives on earth and therefore, they will have plenty of chances to choose to be baptized and receive ordinances for themselves (if they are of any worth, since the whole baptism thing and accepting Christ is superfluous under your 'doctrine') and we should probably spend our time doing other more important things that actually matter to an existence of endless mortal lives.

So, here's my dilemna. I can believe the 'philosophies of Alaris....mingled with scripture' or I can believe the Doctrines and teachings of the LDS church, but I can't believe both, because they cannot be reconciled. Simple logic. The whole reason for a Savior is to save us from our sins. If we can continue to come back over and over to perfect ourselves, we don't need Jesus Christ. And everything we do in the temple is a fairy tale meant to make us feel good and not fear death. If we have to keep coming back over and over, then death is not the 'rest' that the Lord promises (another lie we are told) and when we lose our loved ones, they are lost to us as they move into new lives with new loved ones. Everything is as fleeting and temporary, disconnected and false as Satan claimed it would be when he first attempted to get us to follow him.

But my trust has always been in my Savior and so I believe the teachings of my LDS faith.

So, Alaris, be on notice that in preaching this, you are preaching doctrines which stand in contradiction of what our church teaches.
Your post is full of contention and belittling. You didn't want to accept my invitation to debate free of contention, that's fine. But, do you realize that the spirit of your post only hurts your own case and supports mine? The adversary fights truth and will always use those who list to obey the spirit of contention to fight it because chasing away the spirit is easy. If you'd like to try to reword your post with respectful language I'd be happy to engage you. Otherwise, take comfort in the fact you are not the only one policing what isn't and cannot be with the spirit of contention.

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Alaris
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Alaris »

Thanks for the respectful post. I'll be happy to address! :)
inho wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:45 am I read your article. I still don't accept MMP doctrine, but at least I now have a better idea of why you believe it. There were several points that I disagree with, but since we interpret the same source texts differently it is probably useless to argue about them.

However, let me point out some issues, were you might agree with me. These won't change your (or my) mind about the MMP, but are just comments or suggested improvements to the text.
You say:
The fact there is no scripture or officially declared doctrine stating multiple mortal probations is false is absolutely an evidence in the doctrine’s favor.
You must understand that this is a very poor argument. There is only one truth but countless falsehoods. Should there be an official declaration against every imaginable falsehood?
LDS don't believe every imaginable falsehood. However many LDS believe MMP back to the days of Joseph Smith onward to us. This isn't a poor argument--it would be if that were the only argument. This is however just "an" argument in favor of MMP.
inho wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:45 am
“As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be." (Lorenzo Snow, In Eliza R. Snow Smith, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow)

Lorenzo Snow is both a prophet and a man who was in close proximity to the prophet Joseph Smith. Many LDS try to dismiss this quote.
Just this week, I read the Gospel Topic Essay Becoming like God. I think it is interesting to note that even this official church publication shows some reservation towards the first part of the couplet:
Lorenzo Snow, the Church’s fifth President, coined a well-known couplet: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Little has been revealed about the first half of this couplet, and consequently little is taught. When asked about this topic, Church President Gordon B. Hinckley told a reporter in 1997, “That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.” When asked about the belief in humans’ divine potential, President Hinckley responded, “Well, as God is, man may become. We believe in eternal progression. Very strongly.”
Little is known about the first part, but we strongly believe in the second part.
In my article I point out that people take issue with Lorenzo Snow's quote but ignore the fact that Joseph Smith has said the same thing:

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us... ~ Joseph Smith King Follet

I wholeheartedly agree the ideas here are simple and that it is still somehow incomprehensible to some. To others they'll try to shut down the conversation with insults, belittling, and contention. Also, do you realize President Hinckley's quote supports my article and my stance? Notice how he says, little has been revealed, not "it's false." I cover that point in the article--the Lord starts to reveal more in D&C 93 and stops Himself and says, "be faithful and you'll receive more." I can't imagine why He'd say that. It's not like people are angry and contentious over this doctrine, rejecting it outright and declaring what the mysteries cannot be! ;)
inho wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:45 am
So, if God was once like man and God once was a Savior, well then that’s at least two mortal probations!
This is your view, but most don't have any problem to say that only one probation is implied. God was once a savior, thus he was once like man. Of course that interpretation raises questions about destiny of us who are not saviors. You address that later in the article.


Since you only comment on scriptures and teachings of prophets and apostles, there are many issues that are left unanswered. For example, what is your personal view on the meaning of sealings in the MMP scheme? If a man and a woman are married for eternity in this probation, how does that work in the future probations?
Of course there are many unanswered questions. That's exactly why so many people reject this doctrine so vehemently! I can only speak for myself but in hindsight the path that led me to my wife was very much a guided path. Did Jesus meet Mary Magdalene for the first time or had she been progressing right along with Him? I don't mean to open another can of worms there for the Mary Magdalene was not the Lord's wife folks, but the point is valid. And did the Lord Himself gain light because He was the first spirit created by Heavenly Father and Mother? Where is the agency there? Was light infused into Him? If so, that doesn't seem fair does it? Only the scriptures answer this clearly as I point out in my article. D&C 93 tells you the Lord went from grace to grace until He received of a fulness. What does that mean if it doesn't mean that He went from one creation saved by the Grace of a Son to another creation saved by the Grace of Son of God? D&C 93's testimony of John testifying of the Savior begins with the Savior receiving grace for grace, and then at the end of that subsection, the Lord says you will receive grace for grace. Joseph Smith says there is but one path - the same as all Gods before us have taken. That's at least two mortal probations. And if there's two there could be more.

Edit: Think of the sealing as well .. recall your own if you have been sealed. I was just sealed recently to my wife and children and looked into the opposing mirrors with my six children and wife all standing close together. There we were repeating infinitely. The Temple President made a comment about posterity, and sure, that is part of the symbol. But there we were as a family - infinite iterations of us sealed together. Why would we need to be sealed to continue beyond the veil? I get D&C 132 and its talk about earthly contracts being null and void. But why would I need to be sealed to my spouse and children if we all step into the Celestial Kingdom together? Would God say, "Nope you can't be together you weren't sealed." The sealing together to Christ means we will continue with Him to His new creation where He is Heavenly Father. We will continue as a family and be a family again in our next lives - ad infinitum - "until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."
inho wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:45 am Also, I would like to hear whether you see that the multiple probations occur in this same earth or in different worlds? In the Further Reading, you say this:
There is also a link to an excellent book called “Melchizedek Seal and Scroll” by Alan Mitchell who shares prophecies about “Melchizedek” that are about Jesus Christ as well as apocryphal works that indicates Melchizedek and Christ may be the same person!
If one can have several probations on this earth, then the “transmigration of souls” could in principle be possible.
Firstly, I highly recommend reading that book Melchizedek Seal and Scroll. Melchizedek was the King of Righteousness and an apocryphal work suggests he had an immaculate birth. Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek and our higher priesthood is named after him and yet so little is known about him. Why? Why is so little known about Melchizedek? Could the Lord have withheld this information just as He withheld information from D&C 93 when He says if we are faithful we'll receive the fullness of the record of John? Let's say for the sake of argument that Melchizedek and Christ are the same person. If that's true, then when that truth would be revealed - say along with the sealed portion - then wouldn't the name of the Priesthood make even more sense? It IS named after Christ - The Holy Priesthood After the Order of the Son of God.

Edit: I forgot to address your "transmigration of souls" comment. If you look up the Joseph Smith quote, he's referring to a very specific doctrine where the souls of the fathers actually inhabit the souls of the sons iirc. So basically, you'd have all your fathers spirits crammed into your body. If I remember that incorrectly, it's certainly some very specific doctrine that is unlike MMP that Joseph Smith declares false.
D&C 107:3 Before his day it was called the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.
4 But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church, in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek Priesthood.
If Melchizedek was Christ in an earlier probation where He had not yet worked out the Atonement then it would still be named after Him but after a name that is less sacred? "The Jesus Christ Priesthood" does seem a bit wrong, doesn't it? The name of Jesus Christ is sacred for that is the name whereby He worked out our salvation.

Moreover, if Melchizedek is Christ, then there are so many layers of meaning unlocked by understanding why the Priesthood is named after an earlier mortal probation of Christ--THAT is the order we join and follow through to completion "the same as all Gods before us" have done. Otherwise why not name the priesthood after another great high priest--one whose story we know? There is truth yet to be unfolded about Melchizedek that also helps unlock understanding this Priesthood and this Order.

Edit:

Thinking more about the President Hinckley's quote - I believe that was from his 60 minutes interview. "Little has been revealed about the first half of Lorenzo Snow's statement." It's almost like he's suggesting that there is a lot more to be revealed about the first half of that statement ... almost like they're stored away somewhere sealed .... up. For the sake of argument, let's say I'm right about this. How do we as a people get to where we need to be to receive more truth?

"I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen. (Jan. 20, 1844.) DHC 6:183-185."

Little has been revealed ....

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AI2.0
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by AI2.0 »

alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 11:45 am
AI2.0 wrote: December 27th, 2017, 10:20 am I've read your blog posting and comments on this.

Here's the problem.

If you are right, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is wrong. If the Church is right then you are wrong. You can't have it both ways, because the logic of your 'multiple mortal probations' doctrine does not square with LDS teachings, practices and beliefs and here's why.

You claim that we will live many, many lives, living on earth, then dying and returning to live another life. Apparently this is how we experience a process where we 'perfect' ourselves, as you interpreted Joseph Smith's comments on 'exaltation to exaltation' to mean (why I (and I'm certain his listeners at the time) did not read the same way--this is a problem with the quotes you offer up as 'proof'--you interpret them to support your belief, but I(and the majority of LDS) do not see any evidence that they support your MMP doctrine). With this doctrine of MMP, there is no need for a Savior. There is no need for an atonement because people are sent back to suffer and learn from their own experiences, thus saving themselves eventually as they 'perfect' themselves. According to this doctrine, we essentially 'save' ourselves...in time.

So, I see the doctrine of 'multiple mortal probations' as being 'Anti-christ' as it fully negates the need for a Savior, Redeemer and an atonement performed on our behalf. That's only necessary if THIS is the life that matters--as Alma teaches us in the Book of Mormon.

This doctrine also makes the ordinances performed in the temple for the living and the dead useless lies. If we live many lives, being married to numerous different spouses, having many different children over the years and finding ourselves belonging to different families, with different ancestors and different relatives, then the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday saints are false. We are NOT sealed for time and all eternity to one person, we don't have our children sealed to us for the eternities and we shouldn't bother doing our genealogy, as it will be of no effect in the lives to come, which we will live according to MMP.

If I believe your claims then I must recognize the the church is teaching cruel falsehoods, telling me I can be with my loved ones forever, because I was sealed to them in the temple, giving me a false hope. Worse than that, the members are wasting valuable time and resources doing temple work for people who don't need it done and actually shouldn't have it done. As per your claims, all the dead whom we do temple work for are going to return for more lives on earth and therefore, they will have plenty of chances to choose to be baptized and receive ordinances for themselves (if they are of any worth, since the whole baptism thing and accepting Christ is superfluous under your 'doctrine') and we should probably spend our time doing other more important things that actually matter to an existence of endless mortal lives.

So, here's my dilemna. I can believe the 'philosophies of Alaris....mingled with scripture' or I can believe the Doctrines and teachings of the LDS church, but I can't believe both, because they cannot be reconciled. Simple logic. The whole reason for a Savior is to save us from our sins. If we can continue to come back over and over to perfect ourselves, we don't need Jesus Christ. And everything we do in the temple is a fairy tale meant to make us feel good and not fear death. If we have to keep coming back over and over, then death is not the 'rest' that the Lord promises (another lie we are told) and when we lose our loved ones, they are lost to us as they move into new lives with new loved ones. Everything is as fleeting and temporary, disconnected and false as Satan claimed it would be when he first attempted to get us to follow him.

But my trust has always been in my Savior and so I believe the teachings of my LDS faith.

So, Alaris, be on notice that in preaching this, you are preaching doctrines which stand in contradiction of what our church teaches.
Your post is full of contention and belittling. You didn't want to accept my invitation to debate free of contention, that's fine. But, do you realize that the spirit of your post only hurts your own case and supports mine? The adversary fights truth and will always use those who list to obey the spirit of contention to fight it because chasing away the spirit is easy. If you'd like to try to reword your post with respectful language I'd be happy to engage you. Otherwise, take comfort in the fact you are not the only one policing what isn't and cannot be with the spirit of contention.
My post is absolutely NOT full of contention and belittling.

What you want is people to fawn over and praise you for your esoteric, gnostic teachings. I'm sorry, I can't do that. I pointed out very clearly the problems with your theory and why it cannot be reconciled with LDS church doctrine. You put it out there, asked for comments, but when it isn't praise and encouragement, you get huffy and take offense. Alaris, you're definitely bright enough that you should have seen clearly the flaws I've pointed out-- I should not had to have made this post in the first place. I could have ignored your post and said nothing, but frankly, I'm tired of the constant promoting of false doctrine which goes unchallenged on this forum. If you think that brings a spirit of contention, then look no further than your own participation, since you are the one who keeps bringing up speculative doctrines which you attempt to pass off as the actual hidden doctrines you suggest the brethren don't teach anymore...which is a falsehood. The 'brethren' are not teaching this because it's not true.

Multiple Mortal probations is NOT LDS doctrine, it never was and never will be, because it negates the need for a Savior and his Atonement on our behalf AND it makes Temple ordinances useless, futile and the eternal nature of ordinances etc. a lie. If you don't believe me, share your blog posting with your Bishop or Stake President and see how he reacts. Maybe you'll listen to them.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Alaris »

AI2.0 wrote: December 27th, 2017, 4:15 pm My post is absolutely NOT full of contention and belittling.

What you want is people to fawn over and praise you for your esoteric, gnostic teachings.
Is it now belittling? LOL. I'm sorry AI2.0 but I can't help but point out how I can't get past the first few sentences of your posts when they begin in such a manner. This reminds me of my mission in Texas where many would slam the door in our faces shouting, "I'M CHRISTIAN!!!!" The irony here is you're trying to declare what the unsealed portion isn't when no prophet has, and you're doing it in a hostile, contentious, and belittling manner. To spell out the irony for you, you are using the spirit of contention to clarify doctrine:
3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.
Do you see the irony here? Again, I'd be happy to engage in a polite debate about whether this doctrine is possibly a part of what has not been revealed as stated by President Gordon B. Hinckley on the fact that God was once as man is as stated by both Lorenzo Snow and Joseph Smith. Otherwise you can continue to insult me and tell me how you've not insulted me and I'll just /ignore from now on.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Silver »

alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 4:43 pm
AI2.0 wrote: December 27th, 2017, 4:15 pm My post is absolutely NOT full of contention and belittling.

What you want is people to fawn over and praise you for your esoteric, gnostic teachings.
Is it now belittling? LOL. I'm sorry AI2.0 but I can't help but point out how I can't get past the first few sentences of your posts when they begin in such a manner. This reminds me of my mission in Texas where many would slam the door in our faces shouting, "I'M CHRISTIAN!!!!" The irony here is you're trying to declare what the unsealed portion isn't when no prophet has, and you're doing it in a hostile, contentious, and belittling manner. To spell out the irony for you, you are using the spirit of contention to clarify doctrine:
3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.
Do you see the irony here? Again, I'd be happy to engage in a polite debate about whether this doctrine is possibly a part of what has not been revealed as stated by President Gordon B. Hinckley on the fact that God was once as man is as stated by both Lorenzo Snow and Joseph Smith. Otherwise you can continue to insult me and tell me how you've not insulted me and I'll just /ignore from now on.
Gee whiz, all AI2.0 said is "you're wrong," which you are. Why do you have claim that she's belittling you when she is only pointing out truth? Your dilemma is that AI2.0 is right. Both you and Church doctrine cannot be right on the existence of multiple mortal probations. It's fine if you want to speculate about what is clearly false doctrine although in a perfect LDS forum you'd be promptly banished to Outer Darkness for such blasphemy.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Alaris »

Silver wrote: December 27th, 2017, 5:43 pm
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 4:43 pm
AI2.0 wrote: December 27th, 2017, 4:15 pm My post is absolutely NOT full of contention and belittling.

What you want is people to fawn over and praise you for your esoteric, gnostic teachings.
Is it now belittling? LOL. I'm sorry AI2.0 but I can't help but point out how I can't get past the first few sentences of your posts when they begin in such a manner. This reminds me of my mission in Texas where many would slam the door in our faces shouting, "I'M CHRISTIAN!!!!" The irony here is you're trying to declare what the unsealed portion isn't when no prophet has, and you're doing it in a hostile, contentious, and belittling manner. To spell out the irony for you, you are using the spirit of contention to clarify doctrine:
3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.
Do you see the irony here? Again, I'd be happy to engage in a polite debate about whether this doctrine is possibly a part of what has not been revealed as stated by President Gordon B. Hinckley on the fact that God was once as man is as stated by both Lorenzo Snow and Joseph Smith. Otherwise you can continue to insult me and tell me how you've not insulted me and I'll just /ignore from now on.
Gee whiz, all AI2.0 said is "you're wrong," which you are. Why do you have claim that she's belittling you when she is only pointing out truth? Your dilemma is that AI2.0 is right. Both you and Church doctrine cannot be right on the existence of multiple mortal probations. It's fine if you want to speculate about what is clearly false doctrine although in a perfect LDS forum you'd be promptly banished to Outer Darkness for such blasphemy.
Wow you're right Silver! Thanks for your brilliant post. I should be expelled to outer darkness for blasphemy! Thanks for putting that in a non contentious way. I just needed someone to say "you're wrong" without anything concrete to say to help me see the error of my ways. Oh and I needed another insult about blasphemy and outer darkness to see that AI2.0 wasn't belittling me.

With such fruits it's even clearer to see I'm on the right path so thank you for that.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Spaced_Out »

AI2.0 wrote: December 27th, 2017, 10:20 am ..........If you are right, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is wrong. If the Church is right then you are wrong. You can't have it both ways, because the logic of your 'multiple mortal probations' doctrine does not square with LDS teachings, practices and beliefs and here's why.
.....................
This is pure evil doctrine as it teaches a person can sin and neglect family go in their wordy ways as there will be multiple chances to change. The doctrine makes the entire gospel null and void, and the many witnesses from the scriptures and prophets null and void. The scriptures are clear there is no second mortality - only one life to prepare to meet God.

There is only 2 estates the premortal and mortal after this life we are judged according to works in the flesh, the resurrection is final and no further change can happen to the body, a resurrected body can never become mortal again. In the preexistence 1/3 of the host of heaven were kicked out for rebellion and they will never get a chance to have a body - no second chance.

Sending people over and over again to suffer the pains of the flesh is not the actions of a merciful God. When we die we are given rest and no further works can be done.

Abraham 3:26-28
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

3Nephi 28:2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.
3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are seventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my kingdom; and with me ye shall find rest........

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.
9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.
10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;

The oath and covenant of the PH is we inherit all things the Father and son have, and dwell with them in peace forever.
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.

Alma 34:33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

Those that keep not their second estate are cast down to hell (time between death and the resurrection) the spirit prison after which they are resurrected. The purpose of which is that they have to suffer for their own sins as Christ suffered for the sins of those that have repented. Now after they have suffered like Christ suffered and been resurrected - it is impossible to propose that they will then go down to an earth again and receive a mortal body and go through the entire process again. We took learnings from our premortal existence with us to mortality - the cycle cant keep repeating as those learnigns continue with us. If you had to put me into a body of a 5year old with the current knowledge I have - it simply won't work. What are we taught about knowledge and experience.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:19
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

Satan is the author of MMP doctrine. There is nothing in the scriptures or teaching of the LDS apostles and prophets to even indicate such a blasphemous doctrine.

Whatever is sealed on earth is sealed in heaven, and cant be undone by man or the Gods - as it would make God and Christ a lie,

Eccl 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Alaris »

Well apparently you haven't read my article or you're just pretending apostles and prophets haven't spoken in the affirmative of MMP. Thanks for at least leaving the insults out though "pure evil" could certainly be misconstrued as such.

Both you and Ai2.0 have suggested the doctrine must be false based off your own presumptions and false conclusions as to what the doctrine implies. Do you believe there is one path to godhood or two? Do you believe Joseph Smith when he says we must follow the same path as all Gods before us or not?

We LDS already believe there is less consequence to sin as most Christians as they believe hell is a place of permanence and we believe souls are not left in hell forever...that all but the sons of perdition receive a degree of salvation. What if telestial and Terrestrial are places of permanence and celestial is the only place for increase and mmp.

Brigham Youngs statement about Adam and Eve walking into the garden in celestial bodies makes a lot more sense with mmp than with Adam God "doctrine."

Anyway, if I am right (I am) then it's no wonder these truths are withheld. Look how at least two of you have treated the messenger.

I appreciate your obvious efforts to civil discussion spaced-out, truly. No sarcasm... This time.

Silver
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Silver »

alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 7:03 pm
Silver wrote: December 27th, 2017, 5:43 pm
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 4:43 pm
AI2.0 wrote: December 27th, 2017, 4:15 pm My post is absolutely NOT full of contention and belittling.

What you want is people to fawn over and praise you for your esoteric, gnostic teachings.
Is it now belittling? LOL. I'm sorry AI2.0 but I can't help but point out how I can't get past the first few sentences of your posts when they begin in such a manner. This reminds me of my mission in Texas where many would slam the door in our faces shouting, "I'M CHRISTIAN!!!!" The irony here is you're trying to declare what the unsealed portion isn't when no prophet has, and you're doing it in a hostile, contentious, and belittling manner. To spell out the irony for you, you are using the spirit of contention to clarify doctrine:
3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.
Do you see the irony here? Again, I'd be happy to engage in a polite debate about whether this doctrine is possibly a part of what has not been revealed as stated by President Gordon B. Hinckley on the fact that God was once as man is as stated by both Lorenzo Snow and Joseph Smith. Otherwise you can continue to insult me and tell me how you've not insulted me and I'll just /ignore from now on.
Gee whiz, all AI2.0 said is "you're wrong," which you are. Why do you have claim that she's belittling you when she is only pointing out truth? Your dilemma is that AI2.0 is right. Both you and Church doctrine cannot be right on the existence of multiple mortal probations. It's fine if you want to speculate about what is clearly false doctrine although in a perfect LDS forum you'd be promptly banished to Outer Darkness for such blasphemy.
Wow you're right Silver! Thanks for your brilliant post. I should be expelled to outer darkness for blasphemy! Thanks for putting that in a non contentious way. I just needed someone to say "you're wrong" without anything concrete to say to help me see the error of my ways. Oh and I needed another insult about blasphemy and outer darkness to see that AI2.0 wasn't belittling me.

With such fruits it's even clearer to see I'm on the right path so thank you for that.
You're just wrong. Your doctrine is wrong. That doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. But if you keep preaching heresies then you naturally belong in the Outer Darkness section of this forum. Where you'll go in the eternities is up to a much Higher Judge.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Alaris »

Silver wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:04 pm
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 7:03 pm
Silver wrote: December 27th, 2017, 5:43 pm
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 4:43 pm

Is it now belittling? LOL. I'm sorry AI2.0 but I can't help but point out how I can't get past the first few sentences of your posts when they begin in such a manner. This reminds me of my mission in Texas where many would slam the door in our faces shouting, "I'M CHRISTIAN!!!!" The irony here is you're trying to declare what the unsealed portion isn't when no prophet has, and you're doing it in a hostile, contentious, and belittling manner. To spell out the irony for you, you are using the spirit of contention to clarify doctrine:



Do you see the irony here? Again, I'd be happy to engage in a polite debate about whether this doctrine is possibly a part of what has not been revealed as stated by President Gordon B. Hinckley on the fact that God was once as man is as stated by both Lorenzo Snow and Joseph Smith. Otherwise you can continue to insult me and tell me how you've not insulted me and I'll just /ignore from now on.
Gee whiz, all AI2.0 said is "you're wrong," which you are. Why do you have claim that she's belittling you when she is only pointing out truth? Your dilemma is that AI2.0 is right. Both you and Church doctrine cannot be right on the existence of multiple mortal probations. It's fine if you want to speculate about what is clearly false doctrine although in a perfect LDS forum you'd be promptly banished to Outer Darkness for such blasphemy.
Wow you're right Silver! Thanks for your brilliant post. I should be expelled to outer darkness for blasphemy! Thanks for putting that in a non contentious way. I just needed someone to say "you're wrong" without anything concrete to say to help me see the error of my ways. Oh and I needed another insult about blasphemy and outer darkness to see that AI2.0 wasn't belittling me.

With such fruits it's even clearer to see I'm on the right path so thank you for that.
You're just wrong. Your doctrine is wrong. That doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. But if you keep preaching heresies then you naturally belong in the Outer Darkness section of this forum. Where you'll go in the eternities is up to a much Higher Judge.
Well that's a relief!

Silver
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Silver »

alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:19 pm
Silver wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:04 pm
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 7:03 pm
Silver wrote: December 27th, 2017, 5:43 pm

Gee whiz, all AI2.0 said is "you're wrong," which you are. Why do you have claim that she's belittling you when she is only pointing out truth? Your dilemma is that AI2.0 is right. Both you and Church doctrine cannot be right on the existence of multiple mortal probations. It's fine if you want to speculate about what is clearly false doctrine although in a perfect LDS forum you'd be promptly banished to Outer Darkness for such blasphemy.
Wow you're right Silver! Thanks for your brilliant post. I should be expelled to outer darkness for blasphemy! Thanks for putting that in a non contentious way. I just needed someone to say "you're wrong" without anything concrete to say to help me see the error of my ways. Oh and I needed another insult about blasphemy and outer darkness to see that AI2.0 wasn't belittling me.

With such fruits it's even clearer to see I'm on the right path so thank you for that.
You're just wrong. Your doctrine is wrong. That doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. But if you keep preaching heresies then you naturally belong in the Outer Darkness section of this forum. Where you'll go in the eternities is up to a much Higher Judge.
Well that's a relief!
Your sarcasm is duly noted. I didn't have even the slightest expectation of you forsaking your heresies just because I called you out. However, I figured I had a little free time on my hands so why not?

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Alaris
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Alaris »

Silver wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:28 pm
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:19 pm
Silver wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:04 pm
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 7:03 pm

Wow you're right Silver! Thanks for your brilliant post. I should be expelled to outer darkness for blasphemy! Thanks for putting that in a non contentious way. I just needed someone to say "you're wrong" without anything concrete to say to help me see the error of my ways. Oh and I needed another insult about blasphemy and outer darkness to see that AI2.0 wasn't belittling me.

With such fruits it's even clearer to see I'm on the right path so thank you for that.
You're just wrong. Your doctrine is wrong. That doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. But if you keep preaching heresies then you naturally belong in the Outer Darkness section of this forum. Where you'll go in the eternities is up to a much Higher Judge.
Well that's a relief!
Your sarcasm is duly noted. I didn't have even the slightest expectation of you forsaking your heresies just because I called you out. However, I figured I had a little free time on my hands so why not?
That's OK Silver. I don't expect you or AI2.0 to stop using contention ("behold this is not my doctrine") as a tool to declare doctrine just because I've called you out. But just in case you'd like to debate substantively, I'd be more than happy to (see interaction between me and inho.) :evil: <-- Lol that's called the "Evil or really mad" smiley. I'm not sure how that face could be "really mad"

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Alaris »

I've got a little more time to line item reply.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm This is pure evil doctrine as it teaches a person can sin and neglect family go in their wordy ways as there will be multiple chances to change. The doctrine makes the entire gospel null and void, and the many witnesses from the scriptures and prophets null and void. The scriptures are clear there is no second mortality - only one life to prepare to meet God.
Are you familiar with the scripture where the Lord Himself reveals that He has deliberately used adjectives such as "endless" and "eternal" with the words "torment" and "damnation" to deliberately work on those of a lesser understanding? Is it pure evil for the Lord to allow people to come to incorrect conclusions because those false interpretations give them a proper motivation, whereas a true understanding of the doctrine would be the "pure evil" you describe above. Could there be yet another layer to this? Why else would we need to be faithful to receive the fullness of the record of John? What do you think is in there?

D&C 19:6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.


And where does it say only one life? I'm sorry your mind goes immediately to how MMP teaches a person can sin and neglect family, and I'm not sure how you even come to that conclusion. If you must learn to be a God line upon line and precept upon precept, you can certainly fall off that train through sin. In fact, a careful read of D&C 132 says the only way to completely fall off is to shed innocent blood. Explain that w/o MMP:
D&C 132:39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm There is only 2 estates
Where is that written or declared?
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm the resurrection is final and no further change can happen to the body, a resurrected body can never become mortal again. In the preexistence 1/3 of the host of heaven were kicked out for rebellion and they will never get a chance to have a body - no second chance.
Well unless what Brigham Young taught about Adam and Eve having Celestial Bodies is true. You're jumping to conclusions that if MMP is true at some level then all these other truths are nullified. Can there be a final resurrection and MMP? Of course there can. Can there be eternal consequence along with eternal progression? Yep. Think of it this way. We LDS believe that there are more ordinances and work to be done beyond the veil in our eternal journey towards Godhood. Most LDS believe that there is but one life to prepare us and that all this other work to perfect ourselves happens in a resurrected body. OK. Great. Expand your mind a bit and consider whether Adam and Eve were already ordained to become Kings and Queens and their receiving this world was them stepping into this role? Does that nullify any of the other truths you've listed? Nope. That just means that there may be more to it than just the conclusions you've concatenated. There are more links in that chain! Tell me, what are the three degrees of celestial glory? Why are there three degrees? The sabbath used to be on Saturday and now it is on Sunday. Can you tell me what that symbolizes? Could it be that at the end of a creation's journey is heaven and the beginning of a creation's journey is .. heaven? Could the Lord switching the days from the last to the first symbolize His finalizing His last step - 7th day or 7th step as Son - and beginning His first step as Father? Father of what and of whom? Will we just remain here with Elohim while Jehovah goes off and starts His creation as Father or will He take us with Him---the spiritually begotten sons and daughters of Christ?
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm Sending people over and over again to suffer the pains of the flesh is not the actions of a merciful God.
But sending them once is? What if they choose the pains of the flesh to progress further? Is what the Father asked the Son to do the actions of a merciful God? Could you ask your Son to do it?

Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm When we die we are given rest and no further works can be done.


You quote D&C 130 below, so I presume you mean that no works are done in the interim. We know works must be done towards eternal progression. Keep in mind the temple ordinance where Lucifer tells Adam about this new world patterned after the old world they both came from and compare that to the end of verse 19.

D&C 130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
Abraham 3:26-28
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
"And there are only two estates." Oh wait it doesn't say that, and it so could if it were true!
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
3Nephi 28:2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.
3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are seventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my kingdom; and with me ye shall find rest........

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.
9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.
10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;
I'm sure the three nephites understood the context given in verse 9: while the world shall stand. While the world shall stand, ye shall never endure the pains of death but when I shall come in glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye ... "Ye shall be even as I am" does not disagree with MMP and the fact you will have to be a Son before you can be a Father. You will have to descend below all before you can inherit all. How else could you earn the right to inherit all the Father hath? Because if this isn't the path for you and me then there are two paths to Godhood. One for the Saviors and Holy Ghosts, and one for everyone else.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
The oath and covenant of the PH is we inherit all things the Father and son have, and dwell with them in peace forever.
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.
Yeah I used that in my article. Did you read my article? Every time I write one I learn something awesomely new. It always bothered me that leaders would say "the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood is magnifying your calling." That of course is part of it, but it's magnifying every aspect of yourself that isn't perfect until you become perfect. "Be ye therefore perfect as I or your Father in Heaven is Perfect." I agree with you on the end result of what the oath and covenant brings but we disagree on the process.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
Alma 34:33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
How can you not see the simplicity here that Joseph Smith refers to in King Follet. Spaced_Out, if you cannot labor after this life, then how could you EVER become a God? Easy, simple answer - You progress in life. You are stuck in death. If this is true, how did the Savior become so advanced as to be able to live a sinless live if he was in this stuck state since His inception until His life on Earth?
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
Those that keep not their second estate are cast down to hell (time between death and the resurrection) the spirit prison after which they are resurrected. The purpose of which is that they have to suffer for their own sins as Christ suffered for the sins of those that have repented. Now after they have suffered like Christ suffered and been resurrected - it is impossible to propose that they will then go down to an earth again and receive a mortal body and go through the entire process again.
I'm not necessarily saying the souls thrust to hell are given a second chance. In fact, I can only say for certain that those who accept their vicarious work for the dead move on. However, I'm not so arrogant to say what isn't or what is impossible when there are so many mysteries kept from us because of our wickedness.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
We took learnings from our premortal existence with us to mortality - the cycle cant keep repeating as those learnigns continue with us. If you had to put me into a body of a 5year old with the current knowledge I have - it simply won't work. What are we taught about knowledge and experience.
We are also taught about a veil and that veil covers all of us including those who have progressed premortaly by our faith and good works (Alma 13) whether that faith and good works were done with a body in a prior life or without. And aren't we unable to labor without our bodies?
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
Doctrine and Covenants 130:19
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

Satan is the author of MMP doctrine. There is nothing in the scriptures or teaching of the LDS apostles and prophets to even indicate such a blasphemous doctrine.
I believe I already pointed out that Heber C. Kimball believed it, and his quote at the beginning of my article is unmistakably supporting MMP. Would you call it such a blasphemous doctrine to Heber C. Kimball's face - one of the original twelve apostles of Joseph Smith?

Joseph Smith, Lorenzo Snow, and even Gordon B. Hinckley all support the doctrine. Joseph Smith spells it out in the King Follet Sermon. He tells the saints he wished he could tell them who he is but they would call it ... are you sitting down .. blasphemy!

“Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men upon this stand who would want to take my life.” (Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, p. 322.)

Tell me brother, what could Joseph Smith have possibly stated here that his own followers - the leadership nonetheless - would call it blasphemy and seek his life? Look at the responses to me in this thread! The more things change ...
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
Whatever is sealed on earth is sealed in heaven, and cant be undone by man or the Gods - as it would make God and Christ a lie,

Eccl 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Agreed. Not sure what your point is here. I believe an open understanding of MMP reinforces the need for sealing. Think about it. (seriously did you read my article?) If you must go to the celestial kingdom and if your wife must go to the celestial kingdom for that sealing to take effect anyway, then why is it so important that we be sealed in this life? Why not shop for your spouse without the veil? Why are we sealed TO Christ and not the Father? Where is Christ going? Is He taking us with Him? Will we remain a family unit there as well. Yes! I'm not so cynical as to believe that I met my wife through happenstance and a roll of the dice. She and I have had many experiences that reinforce this belief that we have actually been married before. You cannot receive such knowledge if you, like Joseph's "friends" call it blasphemy.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Spaced_Out »

Two many fringe quotes taken out of context and as with other strange things you post two many linkages are made that do not exist - then the justification leads to even more bizarre things like each of us has to become a saviour, you were previously married to the same woman in another life and I suppose the children are the same. Only celestial beings have MMP... To ignore all the teaching of the church and rely of a few heresy quotes that have to be badly twisted to formulate a doctrine....
It simply takes a lot of time to unravel each argument. Those that have a testimony of the scriptures and understanding of them will come to the truth by what has been posted already.
To think after been resurrected and spending 1000y on earth with the Master, and overcome all things in the process, then inherit the sanctified earth, a person will still have to go through mortality again!! The scriptures are clear we are judged by what we did in the flesh and no works post death can save us.
I have seen a vision on the resurrection similar to Ezekiel37, there is no mistaking once resurrected that is the final state of the being not to be acted upon ever again.

Silver
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Silver »

alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 10:45 pm
Silver wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:28 pm
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:19 pm
Silver wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:04 pm

You're just wrong. Your doctrine is wrong. That doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. But if you keep preaching heresies then you naturally belong in the Outer Darkness section of this forum. Where you'll go in the eternities is up to a much Higher Judge.
Well that's a relief!
Your sarcasm is duly noted. I didn't have even the slightest expectation of you forsaking your heresies just because I called you out. However, I figured I had a little free time on my hands so why not?
That's OK Silver. I don't expect you or AI2.0 to stop using contention ("behold this is not my doctrine") as a tool to declare doctrine just because I've called you out. But just in case you'd like to debate substantively, I'd be more than happy to (see interaction between me and inho.) :evil: <-- Lol that's called the "Evil or really mad" smiley. I'm not sure how that face could be "really mad"
Now I see the problem. In your world, you get to redefine words -- like contention. There was no contention when AI2.0 stated you were wrong. However, since you are not mature enough to accept criticism, you took offense and called her and me contentious.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Alaris »

Silver wrote: December 28th, 2017, 8:05 am
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 10:45 pm
Silver wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:28 pm
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:19 pm

Well that's a relief!
Your sarcasm is duly noted. I didn't have even the slightest expectation of you forsaking your heresies just because I called you out. However, I figured I had a little free time on my hands so why not?
That's OK Silver. I don't expect you or AI2.0 to stop using contention ("behold this is not my doctrine") as a tool to declare doctrine just because I've called you out. But just in case you'd like to debate substantively, I'd be more than happy to (see interaction between me and inho.) :evil: <-- Lol that's called the "Evil or really mad" smiley. I'm not sure how that face could be "really mad"
Now I see the problem. In your world, you get to redefine words -- like contention. There was no contention when AI2.0 stated you were wrong. However, since you are not mature enough to accept criticism, you took offense and called her and me contentious.
Did you serve a mission Silver? Contention is basically bible bashing. I bash your beliefs then you bash mine and it always, always leads nowhere. Kind of like this. I don't need your approval of what bashing / contention is or isn't but the fact you can't see it for what it is just fits along with your inability to see MMP for what it is.

I think I handled yours and Ai2.0s shenanigans with relative maturity if you gloss over my sarcasm. ;)

My stance isn't hard to comprehend. MMP is a reality. I spent time writing about it and asked politely in my OP for dissenting views to at least be respectful and free of contention. Those who immediately go to contention on these forums are the same who deny it vehemently. Not surprising given those are both fruits of the same spirit. They stifle debate and chase out the spirit and whether you will admit it you know deep down more people would come in for a productive conversation if they didn't fear being bashed or having their viewpoint bashed by calling it pure evil, doctrine of the devil, etc. The great irony is the spirit of contention is the doctrine of the devil. Using his doctrine to defend "truth" is the true lack of spiritual maturity.

Now would you like to create a new thread on the spirit of contention where we can continue to debate what that means? Those who are addicted to its spirit are addicted to antagonism and argument. Alaris says let's chat respectfully. Ai2.0 doesn't. Alaris invites a respectful debate again. AI2.0 and others who are addicted to this same behavior start chiming in with "nuh Uh" seeing the opportunity for an easy scratch to that itch that started with a flaxen cord. At least inho and spaced-out offered their dissent with substance rather than contention.

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inho
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by inho »

Alaris,
Let see if we can continue the discussion free of contention. I would like to hear you address the main point of AI2.0's comment. AI2.0 says:
AI2.0 wrote: December 27th, 2017, 10:20 am If you are right, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is wrong. If the Church is right then you are wrong. You can't have it both ways, because the logic of your 'multiple mortal probations' doctrine does not square with LDS teachings, practices and beliefs
I agree with this. LDS church does not teach MMP. Why is that?

You say:
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 11:34 pm I believe I already pointed out that Heber C. Kimball believed it, and his quote at the beginning of my article is unmistakably supporting MMP. Would you call it such a blasphemous doctrine to Heber C. Kimball's face - one of the original twelve apostles of Joseph Smith?

Joseph Smith, Lorenzo Snow, and even Gordon B. Hinckley all support the doctrine.
I agree with you that HCK made remarks that support the idea of MMP. However, I would claim that he is the only GA who has made such remarks. During those early days of restoration, it was not uncommon for even the apostles to openly speculate on doctrinal matters (cf. Pratt's ideas on Holy Spirit).
Those quotes that you have from Joseph Smith, Lorenzo Snow or Gordon B. Hinckley could all be interpreted differently. In fact, in the manuals of the church they are interpreted differently. MMP is simply not taught in the church. And it is not just absent, but the opposite is taught. When the plan of salvation is presented in any church publication, it includes only one mortal probation.

How do you square this with your personal belief of MMP?

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Silver »

alaris wrote: December 28th, 2017, 9:08 am
Silver wrote: December 28th, 2017, 8:05 am
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 10:45 pm
Silver wrote: December 27th, 2017, 9:28 pm

Your sarcasm is duly noted. I didn't have even the slightest expectation of you forsaking your heresies just because I called you out. However, I figured I had a little free time on my hands so why not?
That's OK Silver. I don't expect you or AI2.0 to stop using contention ("behold this is not my doctrine") as a tool to declare doctrine just because I've called you out. But just in case you'd like to debate substantively, I'd be more than happy to (see interaction between me and inho.) :evil: <-- Lol that's called the "Evil or really mad" smiley. I'm not sure how that face could be "really mad"
Now I see the problem. In your world, you get to redefine words -- like contention. There was no contention when AI2.0 stated you were wrong. However, since you are not mature enough to accept criticism, you took offense and called her and me contentious.
Did you serve a mission Silver? Contention is basically bible bashing. I bash your beliefs then you bash mine and it always, always leads nowhere. Kind of like this. I don't need your approval of what bashing / contention is or isn't but the fact you can't see it for what it is just fits along with your inability to see MMP for what it is.

I think I handled yours and Ai2.0s shenanigans with relative maturity if you gloss over my sarcasm. ;)

My stance isn't hard to comprehend. MMP is a reality. I spent time writing about it and asked politely in my OP for dissenting views to at least be respectful and free of contention. Those who immediately go to contention on these forums are the same who deny it vehemently. Not surprising given those are both fruits of the same spirit. They stifle debate and chase out the spirit and whether you will admit it you know deep down more people would come in for a productive conversation if they didn't fear being bashed or having their viewpoint bashed by calling it pure evil, doctrine of the devil, etc. The great irony is the spirit of contention is the doctrine of the devil. Using his doctrine to defend "truth" is the true lack of spiritual maturity.

Now would you like to create a new thread on the spirit of contention where we can continue to debate what that means? Those who are addicted to its spirit are addicted to antagonism and argument. Alaris says let's chat respectfully. Ai2.0 doesn't. Alaris invites a respectful debate again. AI2.0 and others who are addicted to this same behavior start chiming in with "nuh Uh" seeing the opportunity for an easy scratch to that itch that started with a flaxen cord. At least inho and spaced-out offered their dissent with substance rather than contention.
Wrong. Just wrong, you are. However, I will try again.

Alaris, I am sincerely regretful to inform you that you have taken your personal theory about multiple mortality experiences into the realm of heresy. Please, oh please, abandon those ideas before they cause you to lose your opportunity to receive eternal life as promised by God.

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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by AI2.0 »

Since you are willing to discuss with spaced out, I'll respond on this thread to your explanations.
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 11:34 pm I've got a little more time to line item reply.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm This is pure evil doctrine as it teaches a person can sin and neglect family go in their wordy ways as there will be multiple chances to change. The doctrine makes the entire gospel null and void, and the many witnesses from the scriptures and prophets null and void. The scriptures are clear there is no second mortality - only one life to prepare to meet God.
Are you familiar with the scripture where the Lord Himself reveals that He has deliberately used adjectives such as "endless" and "eternal" with the words "torment" and "damnation" to deliberately work on those of a lesser understanding? Is it pure evil for the Lord to allow people to come to incorrect conclusions because those false interpretations give them a proper motivation, whereas a true understanding of the doctrine would be the "pure evil" you describe above. Could there be yet another layer to this? Why else would we need to be faithful to receive the fullness of the record of John? What do you think is in there?

D&C 19:6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.


Spaced out is right to call Multiple Mortal Probations 'pure evil' as I believe it is inspired by the father of all lies. Spaced out has been on the forum long enough to know the problems this belief causes--I remember posters who believed this and were not concerned to give up a wife, or children because they believed they'd have others in a next life. Years ago, we had some 'church of the firstborn' who believed these things and were more willing to share their unorthodox views. Pure evil is also the way to describe a teaching which replaces the need for a Savior and the atonement.

And where does it say only one life? I'm sorry your mind goes immediately to how MMP teaches a person can sin and neglect family, and I'm not sure how you even come to that conclusion. If you must learn to be a God line upon line and precept upon precept, you can certainly fall off that train through sin. In fact, a careful read of D&C 132 says the only way to completely fall off is to shed innocent blood. Explain that w/o MMP:
D&C 132:39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.
The scriptures you quote do not support MMP. It's never been a teaching of our faith, ever. It has been a speculation, not very well flushed out, though--studied and embraced by Fundamentalist polygamists in decades before now. Recently, I've seen it promoted by fringe LDS, such as Snufferites and those who call themselves 'Church of the Firstborn'--especially the Elliason group. As I pointed out in my first post, MMP contradicts the very heart of our gospel teachings--that of the need for a Savior and the need to be saved through his atonement. How do you reconcile this? So far as I've seen, you haven't, you've just ignored my criticisms and accused me of being contentious for bringing them up.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm There is only 2 estates
Where is that written or declared?
LIke I said, go say this to your Bishop or Stake Pres, and see what they say. If you are soooooo certain you are right, then they should welcome your claims of the church teaching that we live many lives and we 'perfect' ourselves through living these lives over and over again until we become Gods. I DARE you to share this with your Priesthood leaders--tell them you think there aren't only two estates--the first estate and second estate. Spaced out is correct, you are not.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm the resurrection is final and no further change can happen to the body, a resurrected body can never become mortal again. In the preexistence 1/3 of the host of heaven were kicked out for rebellion and they will never get a chance to have a body - no second chance.
Well unless what Brigham Young taught about Adam and Eve having Celestial Bodies is true. You're jumping to conclusions that if MMP is true at some level then all these other truths are nullified. Can there be a final resurrection and MMP? Of course there can. Can there be eternal consequence along with eternal progression? Yep. Think of it this way. We LDS believe that there are more ordinances and work to be done beyond the veil in our eternal journey towards Godhood. Most LDS believe that there is but one life to prepare us and that all this other work to perfect ourselves happens in a resurrected body. OK. Great. Expand your mind a bit and consider whether Adam and Eve were already ordained to become Kings and Queens and their receiving this world was them stepping into this role? Does that nullify any of the other truths you've listed? Nope. That just means that there may be more to it than just the conclusions you've concatenated. There are more links in that chain! Tell me, what are the three degrees of celestial glory? Why are there three degrees? The sabbath used to be on Saturday and now it is on Sunday. Can you tell me what that symbolizes? Could it be that at the end of a creation's journey is heaven and the beginning of a creation's journey is .. heaven? Could the Lord switching the days from the last to the first symbolize His finalizing His last step - 7th day or 7th step as Son - and beginning His first step as Father? Father of what and of whom? Will we just remain here with Elohim while Jehovah goes off and starts His creation as Father or will He take us with Him---the spiritually begotten sons and daughters of Christ?First, whatever it was Brigham Young was attempting to teach, it was stopped upon his death. The lecture at the veil that he tried to insert in the Endowment was removed. I trust the Quorum of 12 to have prayed and fasted and felt inspired that this was the right thing to do. Better to stay with the majority of the Quorum than follow after one lone voice--and we don't know what kind of condition Brigham Young was in--for all we know, he was struggling with mental health issues and maybe his thinking was confused with the serious illness which took his life. But, all I know for certain is that his attempt to add his speculative beliefs was abruptly ended.

In promoting Multiple Mortal Probation, you are attempting to add a doctrine that is so far away from what this church teaches that it's ludicrous. You don't need a Savior if you 'save' yourself through living multiple lives to 'perfect' yourself. You don't need a Savior to take on your sins, pains and sufferings if you are going to live them out for yourself. You don't need a Savior to cleanse you through his blood if you are working through your own sins and mistakes by living many lives. That is why I say that there is NO WAY to make room in the gospel for MMP because it replaces the need to be redeemed by the Blood of one who lived sinless, if you'll eventually do it yourself. That is why I call MMP 'anti-christ'.

Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm Sending people over and over again to suffer the pains of the flesh is not the actions of a merciful God.
But sending them once is? What if they choose the pains of the flesh to progress further? Is what the Father asked the Son to do the actions of a merciful God? Could you ask your Son to do it?And WHY should they choose to suffer pains of the flesh when the Savior did it for them???? Multiple Mortal Probations replaces a Savior to do it for you--you do it for yourself. This church teaches that we have ONE LIFE--it is an integral part of our gospel. The ordinances of the Priesthood all revolve around this belief, they are useless and built on lies if we go to the other side and find out that we didn't have to be baptized, we shouldn't have expected that our sealings to our spouse and children are NOT forever and that the Savior did not spare us from having to suffer for our own sins and transgressions. That would be a horrible betrayal to find that we'd been lied to by the 'only true and living church on the earth'!!

Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm When we die we are given rest and no further works can be done.


You quote D&C 130 below, so I presume you mean that no works are done in the interim. We know works must be done towards eternal progression. Keep in mind the temple ordinance where Lucifer tells Adam about this new world patterned after the old world they both came from and compare that to the end of verse 19.This doesn't prove MMP, it proves a premortal existence--which the Gospel teaches.

D&C 130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
Abraham 3:26-28
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
"And there are only two estates." Oh wait it doesn't say that, and it so could if it were true!
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
3Nephi 28:2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.
3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are seventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my kingdom; and with me ye shall find rest........

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.
9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.
10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;
I'm sure the three nephites understood the context given in verse 9: while the world shall stand. While the world shall stand, ye shall never endure the pains of death but when I shall come in glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye ... "Ye shall be even as I am" does not disagree with MMP It doesn't prove it either--you are reading everything with the false MMP notion and twisting scripture to fit your theory. and the fact you will have to be a Son before you can be a Father. You will have to descend below all before you can inherit all. How else could you earn the right to inherit all the Father hath? Because if this isn't the path for you and me then there are two paths to Godhood. One for the Saviors and Holy Ghosts, and one for everyone else.Speculative, there is nothing in the Gospel that teaches this. We know very little of how we become Gods--we know that it is the ultimate desire of our Heavenly Father that we become like him, but how that happens, has not been shared with us. We have been given commandments, doctrines, teachings and ordinances to follow and that is our work here on earth. Thinking that if you mess up this life and ruin family relationships in this life is not a problem, since you'll be back for another attempt at it in a next life, does not help the situation---it makes it worse. It mocks the belief in family relationships extending into the eternities and the teaching that a man and woman are sealed together in a bond that will last forever.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
The oath and covenant of the PH is we inherit all things the Father and son have, and dwell with them in peace forever.
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.
Yeah I used that in my article. Did you read my article? Every time I write one I learn something awesomely new. It always bothered me that leaders would say "the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood is magnifying your calling." Did it occur to you that they are right and you are wrong?That of course is part of it, but it's magnifying every aspect of yourself that isn't perfect until you become perfect.Your MMP doctrine is showing exactly what I said--you think YOU perfect yourself--MMP teaches you don't need Jesus Christ as your redeemer. "Be ye therefore perfect as I or your Father in Heaven is Perfect." I agree with you on the end result of what the oath and covenant brings but we disagree on the process.Christ NEVER was telling you that you needed to 'perfect' yourself through endless lives, he was telling you to follow his example in keeping commandments, receiving ordinances and doing all that you saw him do, and most important repent, repent, repent, so that through him you can be Sanctified, justified and 'perfected'. That can and is done with one Mortal life, no matter how long or how fleeting--Heavenly Father knows the amount of time each of us needs on earth for this process--think of the parable of the workers--they all received the same wage, no matter how long they worked.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
Alma 34:33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
How can you not see the simplicity here that Joseph Smith refers to in King Follet. You are reading into King Follet things that Joseph was not teaching--he was not teaching MMP.Spaced_Out, if you cannot labor after this life, then how could you EVER become a God? Easy, simple answer - You progress in life. You are stuck in death.You are not 'stuck' in death--otherwise there would be no reason for missionary work, ordinances for the dead, etc. in the next life (which we know take place), but this life is the time to learn certain things and grow in a way that cannot be done in the next. That doesn't mean we do not progress in the next, the gospel does not teach that there is no change, no learning and no growing after death. The Atonement is infinite--it can save the dead as well as the living. If this is true, how did the Savior become so advanced as to be able to live a sinless live if he was in this stuck state since His inception until His life on Earth?NO where do we EVER teach that Jesus lived as a mortal in another sphere--NOWHERE. You are speculating that he 'perfected' himself through multiple past lives, which is NOT LDS belief--and is even heretical to LDS beliefs. The gospel teaches that Jesus was like unto his father and was a special being--much better than the rest of us--that's how he was able to live a sinless life.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
Those that keep not their second estate are cast down to hell (time between death and the resurrection) the spirit prison after which they are resurrected. The purpose of which is that they have to suffer for their own sins as Christ suffered for the sins of those that have repented. Now after they have suffered like Christ suffered and been resurrected - it is impossible to propose that they will then go down to an earth again and receive a mortal body and go through the entire process again.
I'm not necessarily saying the souls thrust to hell are given a second chance. In fact, I can only say for certain that those who accept their vicarious work for the dead move on. However, I'm not so arrogant to say what isn't or what is impossible when there are so many mysteries kept from us because of our wickedness.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
We took learnings from our premortal existence with us to mortality - the cycle cant keep repeating as those learnigns continue with us. If you had to put me into a body of a 5year old with the current knowledge I have - it simply won't work. What are we taught about knowledge and experience.
We are also taught about a veil and that veil covers all of us including those who have progressed premortaly by our faith and good works (Alma 13) whether that faith and good works were done with a body in a prior life or without. And aren't we unable to labor without our bodies?
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
Doctrine and Covenants 130:19
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

Satan is the author of MMP doctrine. There is nothing in the scriptures or teaching of the LDS apostles and prophets to even indicate such a blasphemous doctrine.
I believe I already pointed out that Heber C. Kimball believed it, and his quote at the beginning of my article is unmistakably supporting MMP. Sorry, I didn't see it. You are misinterpreting these quotes to attempt to make them support your theory.Would you call it such a blasphemous doctrine to Heber C. Kimball's face - one of the original twelve apostles of Joseph Smith? Absolutely--but he's not teaching it--you are. That's why WE are calling you out--to your face.

Joseph Smith, Lorenzo Snow, and even Gordon B. Hinckley all support the doctrine.Uh no, they don't. You are lying about them with this statement.Joseph Smith spells it out in the King Follet Sermon.No, he does not. If he did 'spell it out', then it would be part of our canon and it would be a basic teaching in our doctrine--are you going to deny that MMP is NOT a basic teaching of our faith??....and we'd have no temple ordinances that seal family units together for eternity and we wouldn't waste tons of money and time doing proxy work for dead people who could easily come back again in another life and get their own ordinances completed when they find the gospel!! He tells the saints he wished he could tell them who he is but they would call it ... are you sitting down .. blasphemy!

“Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men upon this stand who would want to take my life.” (Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, p. 322.)What, you think he was going to tell them he was Julius Caesar, or Moses or Abraham ooooor Seth in a past life????? I'm sorry if I'm scoffing--but it can't be helped--you read too much into what Joseph was saying and you are wrong. It's always a joke that people who believe in past lives never say they were a washerwoman, or a peasant, they were always Cleopatra or Queen Elizabeth the first, or Mata Hari.

Tell me brother, what could Joseph Smith have possibly stated here that his own followers - the leadership nonetheless - would call it blasphemy and seek his life? Look at the responses to me in this thread! The more things change ...If Multiple Mortal Probations was an actual doctrine of this church, then he would have revealed it and he wouldn't have bothered with a belief in the Atonement of Jesus Christ which wasn't necessary or in the time and expense of Temples and temple ordinances for dead people who could do it themselves...eventually and living people who shouldn't believe that their connections to loved ones are anything but for this life alone.
Spaced_Out wrote: December 27th, 2017, 8:40 pm
Whatever is sealed on earth is sealed in heaven, and cant be undone by man or the Gods - as it would make God and Christ a lie,

Eccl 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Agreed. Not sure what your point is here. I believe an open understanding of MMP reinforces the need for sealing. Think about it. (seriously did you read my article?) If you must go to the celestial kingdom and if your wife must go to the celestial kingdom for that sealing to take effect anyway, then why is it so important that we be sealed in this life? Why not shop for your spouse without the veil? And there you have it. Why not 'shop' around for a new spouse in this life as well--just so your prepared for the next life? Why get too wrapped up with these people (wife, husband, parents, children) if they can be replaced with better wives, husbands, children etc. in a later life when you are a more 'perfected' person and have earned better loved ones? It's disturbing that you can't see the real damage this can create and the disconnect it will cause in loosening loving ties. Do you not see how damaging this is? Why should one have to love and suffer with flawed family members when you can 'trade up'? Why are we sealed TO Christ and not the Father? Where is Christ going? Is He taking us with Him? Will we remain a family unit there as well. Yes! I'm not so cynical as to believe that I met my wife through happenstance and a roll of the dice. She and I have had many experiences that reinforce this belief that we have actually been married before.And now you are teaching 'Soul Bonding'--a theory that even Denver Snuffer had the good sense to reject! In the gospel, we don't teach that people were married before, because we don't teach that they lived anywhere else but in the premortal existence. Marriage, procreation, ordinances, repentance, exercising faith--these are ALL things that need to be done in a mortal existence and each of us has one life to live--divinely planned and ordained by a loving Heavenly Father. The temple ordinances are so important that we complete them for the dead, if they didn't receive them, because they need to be done in the mortal realm. If we were coming back for multiple go arounds, then there is no need for proxy temple work and living temple ordinances are a cruel joke. You cannot receive such knowledge if you, like Joseph's "friends" call it blasphemy.
You put words and thoughts in Joseph Smith Jr.'s mouth and mind that were not there. As I said, I challenge you to share your 'theories' with your priesthood leaders, before you go way too far afield and find yourself not being able to be corrected by the Lord's true servants.

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Alaris
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Re: Multiple Mortal Probations Article

Post by Alaris »

Silver wrote: December 28th, 2017, 9:29 am
alaris wrote: December 28th, 2017, 9:08 am
Silver wrote: December 28th, 2017, 8:05 am
alaris wrote: December 27th, 2017, 10:45 pm

That's OK Silver. I don't expect you or AI2.0 to stop using contention ("behold this is not my doctrine") as a tool to declare doctrine just because I've called you out. But just in case you'd like to debate substantively, I'd be more than happy to (see interaction between me and inho.) :evil: <-- Lol that's called the "Evil or really mad" smiley. I'm not sure how that face could be "really mad"
Now I see the problem. In your world, you get to redefine words -- like contention. There was no contention when AI2.0 stated you were wrong. However, since you are not mature enough to accept criticism, you took offense and called her and me contentious.
Did you serve a mission Silver? Contention is basically bible bashing. I bash your beliefs then you bash mine and it always, always leads nowhere. Kind of like this. I don't need your approval of what bashing / contention is or isn't but the fact you can't see it for what it is just fits along with your inability to see MMP for what it is.

I think I handled yours and Ai2.0s shenanigans with relative maturity if you gloss over my sarcasm. ;)

My stance isn't hard to comprehend. MMP is a reality. I spent time writing about it and asked politely in my OP for dissenting views to at least be respectful and free of contention. Those who immediately go to contention on these forums are the same who deny it vehemently. Not surprising given those are both fruits of the same spirit. They stifle debate and chase out the spirit and whether you will admit it you know deep down more people would come in for a productive conversation if they didn't fear being bashed or having their viewpoint bashed by calling it pure evil, doctrine of the devil, etc. The great irony is the spirit of contention is the doctrine of the devil. Using his doctrine to defend "truth" is the true lack of spiritual maturity.

Now would you like to create a new thread on the spirit of contention where we can continue to debate what that means? Those who are addicted to its spirit are addicted to antagonism and argument. Alaris says let's chat respectfully. Ai2.0 doesn't. Alaris invites a respectful debate again. AI2.0 and others who are addicted to this same behavior start chiming in with "nuh Uh" seeing the opportunity for an easy scratch to that itch that started with a flaxen cord. At least inho and spaced-out offered their dissent with substance rather than contention.
Wrong. Just wrong, you are. However, I will try again.

Alaris, I am sincerely regretful to inform you that you have taken your personal theory about multiple mortality experiences into the realm of heresy. Please, oh please, abandon those ideas before they cause you to lose your opportunity to receive eternal life as promised by God.
Though I truly appreciate your respectful tone, the fact that my belief in MMP would somehow cause me to lose my opportunity to receive eternal life is nonsense. I am open to being wrong about MMP. If I die and discover this was our one mortality and somehow we will become Gods along some path other than the one Jospeh Smith says all Gods take, then great! Being a Savior and a Son before being an Elohim and a Father does not sound like a cup I'd ever want to drink. Again the irony here is so rich and thick - even richer than the irony that AI2.0 continues to display by declaring doctrine by the spirit of contention which Christ specifically stated is not His doctrine. Here's the irony:

If I am wrong, well oops. I'll happily say, "Hey Silver and AI2.0 and everyone else who so gently (lol) tried to steer me back on course. I was wrong! Thanks for showing me charity." Ok that last sentence was sarcasm and likely won't be present if I am wrong, but I will happily admit it.

If you are wrong, then which of these two "wrong" scenarios will be harder to accept / admit? Will it be harder or easier for you to admit - "oh my goodness. I have to live another mortality or more? I have to descend below all before I can inherit it all?" Will you then be able to say, "Alaris, wow thanks for trying to share with us these truths, and I'm sorry I contributed to chasing off the spirit in a thread where others likely would have been engaged but didn't want to be harangued like you were being harangued." Question mark? Nope. This will not happen as long as that same spirit that has lead to contention and a compulsive addiction to argument is the same spirit that prevents so many in our world from ever admitting wrongdoing or offering even a simple apology. A good self-inventory to assess how much this spirit has a hold on you, ask yourself, when was the last time you offered a sincere apology to someone--anyone--a loved one or otherwise?

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