Multiple Mortal Probations Article

[Alaris]

Great question. First, take into consideration this is not a prophet who is the only one who may define doctrine.

Who are you referring to? Elizabeth quoted Wilford Woodruff and the year was 1889. In 1889, Woodruff was either the president of the church or lead the church as the president of the twelve.

Anyway,I still don't see any difference between MMP you are teaching and the ideas president Woodruff is condemning

[Alaris]

Great question. First, take into consideration this is not a prophet who is the only one who may define doctrine.

Who are you referring to? Elizabeth quoted Wilford Woodruff and the year was 1889. In 1889, Woodruff was either the president of the church or lead the church as the president of the twelve.

Anyway,I still don't see any difference between MMP you are teaching and the ideas president Woodruff is condemning

That whole last piece I quoted was from some dudes website.

Anyway you are ignoring the other WW quote about how we celestialized saints go through the same path as the holy ghost, son, and father. The two quotes are really easy to synthesize if you remove confirmation bias.

[Silver]

Great question. First, take into consideration this is not a prophet who is the only one who may define doctrine.

Who are you referring to? Elizabeth quoted Wilford Woodruff and the year was 1889. In 1889, Woodruff was either the president of the church or lead the church as the president of the twelve.

Anyway,I still don't see any difference between MMP you are teaching and the ideas president Woodruff is condemning

That whole last piece I quoted was from some dudes website.

Anyway you are ignoring the other WW quote about how we celestialized saints go through the same path as the holy ghost, son, and father. The two quotes are really easy to synthesize if you remove confirmation bias.

It's really easy for you to go see your bishop if you remove Lucifer bias.

[abijah]

This thread has come to have a very negative spirit to it...

[Spaced_Out]

Another scripture damming MMP, the resurrection is the redemption of man and those that gain the first resurrection at the second coming . dwell with Christ for ever and ever ie gain eternal life the greatest gift God has to offer...

Doctrine and Covenants 76:62
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

I believe in multiple eternal rounds and I believe in this scripture. I believe that we will dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. But here are a few verses you did not provide:

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

What do you think it takes to overcome all things? Do you believe you have done so because you are baptized and married in the temple? This question merits serious consideration.

I think I know what Joseph felt when he said:

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].” (History of the Church, 6:184–85)

Did Abraham overcome all things - yes he did is he now an exalted god. We do not need mortal probation in order to progress. One progression is much quicker with an immortal body. Living on earth 1,000 years with a celestial body having overcome sin - is overcoming all things. Satan has no power over a resurrected being who has the veil lifted and full knowledge of all things. There is nothing to overcome A child that dies after 1 minute goes strait to heaven and follows on the path to exaltation never to again suffer death gain.

It is a false notion that only in mortality we can progress. Satan never had a body but progressed to having authority int he presence of God, All the great and noble ones earned their status while in spirit. Jesus became perfect while still in spirit except for the restrictions of not having a 'physical body' . Having a resurrected body and the veil lifted we gain power over all things, indeed the scriptures say we are no longer acted upon.

You say you believe the scriptures but you lack understanding of them else you would not teach MMP - The Apostles of the Lord teach the opposite one mortal probation - yet you fly to pieces against the teachings of the church.

JS quote about members not accepting doctrine is more applicable to you - you do not accept the teachings of the scriptures or the teachings of the church but fly to pieces at the simple doctrine of the Resurrection.

[mirkwood]

This thread has come to have a very negative spirit to it...

That's what happens when heresy is taught and promoted.

[Alaris]

This thread has come to have a very negative spirit to it...

It's actually not nearly as bad once you start adding people to the "foe" list. Evil spirits only have what power you give them ... I'm not saying anyone here is an evil spirit - they obviously have a body!

[Alaris]

This thread has come to have a very negative spirit to it...

That's what happens when heresy is taught and promoted.

Hahahaha! SO backwards and you know it Mirkwood. NT.

[mirkwood]

This thread has come to have a very negative spirit to it...

That's what happens when heresy is taught and promoted.

Hahahaha! SO backwards and you know it Mirkwood. NT.

I feel sorry for you. Judgement day is going to be ugly if you do not give up your heresy.

[Durzan]

Honestly, I am starting to see why Alaris believes in MMP. Parts of the D&C talk about how Christ had to progress to get to where he was in the Pre-existence, much less where he is now. IE He progressed from grace to grace, line upon line, precept upon precept.

Its not that big of a step from that line of thinking to say that progression requires advancing through multiple generations of creations.

Time is linear, but the pattern is circular. If resurrected beings of Terrestrial rank or lower are given the option to revert back to their spirit forms and go through another period of time in the 1st and 2nd estate, then it make senses to me. Just because the option exists doesn't mean that everyone will take it, as most (if not many) of the resurrected beings would be content with wherever they are.

Personally, I am more inclined to believe that progressions between kingdoms is a more likely possibility; with the scriptures talking about having an increase being the general rule of thumb, not the end all be all. I mean, someone who is absolutely content with their location cant have an increase, because they are unwilling to put forth the effort needed to jump the very large gap between kingdoms. It is far easier to progress in mortality than it is to do so in the spirit world; likewise, it is far easier to progress in the spirit world, than in the resurrected world.

I have long thought that everything we think we know, even if it is in scripture will be turned on its head multiple times over the course of the Last Dispensation, and if that is the case, it may be that MMP Theory or my progression between kingdoms theory may prove to true in some sense or the other in the end. After all, if our Doctrine and the interpretation their-of cannot be changed, then we are little better than the Pharisees, who thought it heretical to believe in the things Christ taught... as in their eyes the scriptures outright condemned what Christ was talking about (in fact it may even have supported their views). But that's just my thoughts... and there is a decent possibility that they are not correct, so YMMV.

Now for all of you who are getting their panties in a twist over this topic (whether you are preaching to bring the "heretics" back into the fold or are defending your own views, it mattereth not), kindly spend a few days untwisting your panties and taking deep breaths.

[Alaris]

This thread has come to have a very negative spirit to it...

That's what happens when heresy is taught and promoted.

Hahahaha! SO backwards and you know it Mirkwood. NT.

I feel sorry for you. Judgement day is going to be ugly if you do not give up your heresy.

I can tell you feel sorry for me. My cup overfloweth with your charity mirkwood. Thank you.

[Alaris]

Honestly, I am starting to see why Alaris believes in MMP. Parts of the D&C talk about how Christ had to progress to get to where he was in the Pre-existence, much less where he is now. IE He progressed from grace to grace, line upon line, precept upon precept.

Its not that big of a step from that line of thinking to say that progression requires advancing through multiple generations of creations.

Time is linear, but the pattern is circular. If resurrected beings of Terrestrial rank or lower are given the option to revert back to their spirit forms and go through another period of time in the 1st and 2nd estate, then it make senses to me. Just because the option exists doesn't mean that everyone will take it, as most (if not many) of the resurrected beings would be content with wherever they are.

Personally, I am more inclined to believe that progressions between kingdoms is a more likely possibility; with the scriptures talking about having an increase being the general rule of thumb, not the end all be all. I mean, someone who is absolutely content with their location cant have an increase, because they are unwilling to put forth the effort needed to jump the very large gap between kingdoms. It is far easier to progress in mortality than it is to do so in the spirit world; likewise, it is far easier to progress in the spirit world, than in the resurrected world.

I have long thought that everything we think we know, even if it is in scripture will be turned on its head multiple times over the course of the Last Dispensation, and if that is the case, it may be that MMP Theory or my progression between kingdoms theory may prove to true in some sense or the other in the end. After all, if our Doctrine and the interpretation their-of cannot be changed, then we are little better than the Pharisees, who thought it heretical to believe in the things Christ taught... as in their eyes the scriptures outright condemned what Christ was talking about (in fact it may even have supported their views). But that's just my thoughts... and there is a decent possibility that they are not correct, so YMMV.

Now for all of you who are getting their panties in a twist over this topic (whether you are preaching to bring the "heretics" back into the fold or are defending your own views, it mattereth not), kindly spend a few days untwisting your panties and taking deep breaths.

I like what you said, "Time is linear but the pattern is circular."

Coincidentally, or not - (side note: it's amazing how often "coincidences" occur once you open yourself up to receiving line upon line and submit yourself to the Lord as a child submits to his father, willing to give up false traditions and assumptions) - 1 Nephi 10:19 speaks both to the "eternal round" and to uncovering mysteries!

1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

Are you diligently seeking mysteries or are you diligently policing "We have enough!"?

The course of the Lord is one eternal round. ! Sometimes these truths are hiding in plain sight! There are so many layers to the scriptures, but one will never be able to see them if they are not seeking them - and if they stop seeking they will lose what they knew until they don't even understand the basic tenets of the Gospel of Jesus Christ - such as charity, turn the other cheek - be kind. Be humble, etc. etc. as is on glorious display in this thread.

I do believe Bruce R (7 deadly heresies) that there is no progression between kingdoms once a final judgement is executed--but that is where I believe there will be some oddly disappointed faces - when some learn that the same God who offers a degree of salvation to anyone who does not openly rebel against him is the same God who has a plan to get anyone who will to come to the church of the Firstborn. (see my humorous and somewhat charming comment on an earlier page about a workflow that included some pics.)

D&C 77:11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.

I believe there is a final judgement each eternal round - however, is there some other path that souls can elect to take? Does becoming a begotten son and daughter to Christ mean we become his children, along with our new names, in the next eternal round where he assumes his role as father with his new name?

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Is this more or less merciful than those here screaming with angry faces that there is only one eternal round for us and that's that! Does this give the Savior more or less power - for all those tripping over themselves to conclude for us that MMP somehow not only cheapens the Savior but makes His Atonement meaningless? We LDS happily go to the world with a message of love about a gospel that does not leave souls in hell - yet are we willing to say "we have enough" and define what the limits of God's love and mercy is, drawing conclusions that reflect less mercy and then say MMP cheapens the atonement - and all without any pondering or prayer? It is not a waste of time to ponder these truths and pray on them friends. Those angry faces and comments are not a result of the negativity introduced by MMP by me or anyone else in this thread who believe MMP but by the adversary who opposes all truth vehemently who uses those who subject themselves unto him. You can read this thread from the beginning and see this clearly unfold.

[Spaced_Out]

Is this more or less merciful than those here screaming with angry faces that there is only one eternal round for us and that's that! Does this give the Savior more or less power - for all those tripping over themselves to conclude for us that MMP somehow not only cheapens the Savior but makes His Atonement meaningless? We LDS happily go to the world with a message of love about a gospel that does not leave souls in hell - yet are we willing to say "we have enough" and define what the limits of God's love and mercy is, drawing conclusions that reflect less mercy and then say MMP cheapens the atonement - and all without any pondering or prayer? It is not a waste of time to ponder these truths and pray on them friends. Those angry faces and comments are not a result of the negativity introduced by MMP by me or anyone else in this thread who believe MMP but by the adversary who opposes all truth vehemently who uses those who subject themselves unto him. You can read this thread from the beginning and see this clearly unfold.

You pervert the scriptures and the teaching of all the prophets and apostles, you know with a perfect knowledge your interpretation of those things are wrong. There is no other way, there is no other savior there is no other gospel - the scriptures do not lie or teach half truths. Jesus grew from grace to grace while on earth not some other mortal life, the scripture talking about Jesus progressing from grace to grace specifically states it was from his birth to his baptism at age 30 when he received a fullness - all during one mortality. There are many scriptures talking about all the things Jesus did in the preexistence while He was in spirit form. There is not one scripture or one teaching from any general authority that Jesus previously had a mortal body - it is an abomination of a doctrine a perversion of the atonement and the things He accomplished. Coming down in mortally for the first time and living a perfect life. Then claiming one day you will also be a first born and a savor of the God's children - when there is only one infinite and eternal sacrifice.

Your teachings are not in line with teachings of the church, handbooks of instructions, teachings of the general authorities or scripture -
--- Again there is one Lord one Faith one unity if you are not one with the brethren you are not one in the Kingdom of God but are preaching disunity in an attempt to destroy the kingdom and bring misery to the souls of men. That is your choice and prerogative but tanking others down with you takes you to whole new level of digression.

[Spaced_Out]

Honestly, I am starting to see why Alaris believes in MMP. Parts of the D&C talk about how Christ had to progress to get to where he was in the Pre-existence, much less where he is now. IE He progressed from grace to grace, line upon line, precept upon precept.

The scriptures are clear His progression from grace to grace was on this earth no where else. Sayin g one eternal round does not mean one eternal mortal probation and resurrection.

The main purpose of God is the immortality and eternal life of Man - that is achieved at the resurrection. During the millennium children will grow up without sin unto salvation - they are resurrected when reaching the age of tree (70y). Why not just stay mortal and continue to progress - no it is enough - not required - all one needs to continue to progress is obtain an immortal body.

Again having continual increase is having offspring and creating spiritual bodies for intelligences. The teaching is very plain and simple that is how God continues to have an increase in glory. You cant take the teachings and pervert it to say there is continual increase through mortal probations - mortal probations are very limited in how much one can progress. The scriptures are full of accounts of people who have overcome the world - there are many scriptures that say those that have past through great tribulations will rise in the first resurrection to redemption and eternal life.

One only needs to overcome the world once - thee is zero purpose in rinse and repeat cycle. The same spirit that possesses our bodies in this life continues in the next, even if we had to live a 1,000 mortal probations it would make no difference, God is a perfect judge and knows the end from the beginning.

There is no possibility of another mortal probation - those that teach it are overcome by the world and are looking for more time to repent and excuses s for sin and are attempting to bring others out of unity with God and His Church..

[Alaris]

Is this more or less merciful than those here screaming with angry faces that there is only one eternal round for us and that's that! Does this give the Savior more or less power - for all those tripping over themselves to conclude for us that MMP somehow not only cheapens the Savior but makes His Atonement meaningless? We LDS happily go to the world with a message of love about a gospel that does not leave souls in hell - yet are we willing to say "we have enough" and define what the limits of God's love and mercy is, drawing conclusions that reflect less mercy and then say MMP cheapens the atonement - and all without any pondering or prayer? It is not a waste of time to ponder these truths and pray on them friends. Those angry faces and comments are not a result of the negativity introduced by MMP by me or anyone else in this thread who believe MMP but by the adversary who opposes all truth vehemently who uses those who subject themselves unto him. You can read this thread from the beginning and see this clearly unfold.

You pervert the scriptures and the teaching of all the prophets and apostles, you know with a perfect knowledge your interpretation of those things are wrong. There is no other way, there is no other savior there is no other gospel - the scriptures do not lie or teach half truths. Jesus grew from grace to grace while on earth not some other mortal life, the scripture talking about Jesus progressing from grace to grace specifically states it was from his birth to his baptism at age 30 when he received a fullness - all during one mortality. There are many scriptures talking about all the things Jesus did in the preexistence while He was in spirit form. There is not one scripture or one teaching from any general authority that Jesus previously had a mortal body - it is an abomination of a doctrine a perversion of the atonement and the things He accomplished. Coming down in mortally for the first time and living a perfect life. Then claiming one day you will also be a first born and a savor of the God's children - when there is only one infinite and eternal sacrifice.

Your teachings are not in line with teachings of the church, handbooks of instructions, teachings of the general authorities or scripture -
--- Again there is one Lord one Faith one unity if you are not one with the brethren you are not one in the Kingdom of God but are preaching disunity in an attempt to destroy the kingdom and bring misery to the souls of men. That is your choice and prerogative but tanking others down with you takes you to whole new level of digression.

Well at least you got rid of the angry faces. You should really take the combative language out of your posts. It's a waste of time - stick to the substance of why you think this doctrine is wrong - even a perversion - but your condemnations and accusations are silly and needless and certainly are combative and contentious. I'd be happy to continue to engage with you if you choose to be civil.

You cannot grow from grace to grace sinlessly - that is such a basic contradiction. You cannot become perfect on your first go round. Your soul cannot be created perfect as that would rob every single soul who was created otherwise. That would rob the Savior of His own achievement (well he was the first created spirit and God always just makes the first one perfect) Nope. There is one path to perfection. D&C 93 is clear - this is how Jesus became perfect. This is how you become perfect. Jesus said be perfect as I am perfect. Revelation says - once we reach that level - we will overcome even as He overcame. The scriptures are clear - crystal clear.

You proceed from grace to grace until you can live a sinless life. You must descend below all before you can receive all. You must prove to yourself and to those over whom you preside you can live a perfect life and save them from their sins to allow them to continue their paths to do the same.

Moses 7:1 And it came to pass that Enoch continued his speech, saying: Behold, our father Adam taught these things, and many have believed and become the sons of God, and many have believed not, and have perished in their sins, and are looking forth with fear, in torment, for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God to be poured out upon them.

(Odd how fear, torment, and fiery indignation is all displayed in this thread directly!)

[mirkwood]

I can tell you feel sorry for me. My cup overfloweth with your charity mirkwood. Thank you.

No, you actually don't. You are a snake in the grass.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Another scripture damming MMP, the resurrection is the redemption of man and those that gain the first resurrection at the second coming . dwell with Christ for ever and ever ie gain eternal life the greatest gift God has to offer...

Doctrine and Covenants 76:62
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

I believe in multiple eternal rounds and I believe in this scripture. I believe that we will dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. But here are a few verses you did not provide:

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

What do you think it takes to overcome all things? Do you believe you have done so because you are baptized and married in the temple? This question merits serious consideration.

I think I know what Joseph felt when he said:

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].” (History of the Church, 6:184–85)

Silver is in need of a dustbin and broom, anyone want to help clean him up?

[Kingdom of ZION]

It is simply stunning that any LDS would so discount the atonement. As for the non LDS it isn't that much of a surprise. Alaris may attend the LDS church, but he certainly does not believe the doctrines. For you lurkers: He can scream as loudly as he likes that he is LDS and believes in LDS doctrines, but he has clearly (and cleverly) shown he does not believe in LDS doctrine. If you wish to follow his heresy you are free to do so, just be honest with yourselves (unlike alaris) and know that you are not following LDS doctrine.

I guess you have lived a very sheltered life! I have known a few Christians that can put most LDS saints to shame in the Atonement department. Dumitru Duduman, a Russian Immigrant in the 1990's, comes to mind. There are many more people like him, who risked everything, even there lives to being the knowledge of the Atonement to an oppressed people. He snuggled bibles by the thousands into Russia during the cold war years.

[Spaced_Out]

Well at least you got rid of the angry faces. You should really take the combative language out of your posts. It's a waste of time - stick to the substance of why you think this doctrine is wrong - even a perversion - but your condemnations and accusations are silly and needless and certainly are combative and contentious. I'd be happy to continue to engage with you if you choose to be civil.

You cannot grow from grace to grace sinlessly - that is such a basic contradiction. You cannot become perfect on your first go round. Your soul cannot be created perfect as that would rob every single soul who was created otherwise. That would rob the Savior of His own achievement (well he was the first created spirit and God always just makes the first one perfect) Nope. There is one path to perfection. D&C 93 is clear - this is how Jesus became perfect. This is how you become perfect. Jesus said be perfect as I am perfect. Revelation says - once we reach that level - we will overcome even as He overcame. The scriptures are clear - crystal clear.

You proceed from grace to grace until you can live a sinless life. You must descend below all before you can receive all. You must prove to yourself and to those over whom you preside you can live a perfect life and save them from their sins to allow them to continue their paths to do the same.

Moses 7:1 And it came to pass that Enoch continued his speech, saying: Behold, our father Adam taught these things, and many have believed and become the sons of God, and many have believed not, and have perished in their sins, and are looking forth with fear, in torment, for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God to be poured out upon them.

(Odd how fear, torment, and fiery indignation is all displayed in this thread directly!)

One does not need to live a sinless life but repent and overcome the sin and be forgiven in this life. When we repent our sins are forgiven and no longer remembered - so when we die and come to the final judgement God will see us as having lived a sinless life, and will be resurrected to eternal life never to suffer pain in the flesh again. There is only one eternal and infinite sacrifice.
We do not need to overcome as He overcame there is no such teaching - we need to come forth sinless through repentance.

Yes the scriptures are very clear and the teachings of the general authorities, refer to Urfdorf - but you are misunderstanding them. If one overcomes the temptations of this world (sexual, greed, desire to rule) there is no point in another mortal probation. The scriptures talk about the saints of God overcoming the world in this one mortal life. Yes there is much to learn about PH and leadership etc. etc... but one does not need a mortal probation to learn those things. Only those that are overcome by Satan's temptations think they need another chance another mortal life

The scriptures are clear there is only one Anointed One, only one Savior for all of creations and those that are still to be, and if we repent we do not suffer as He suffered, an if we don't repent we suffer as he suffered and are then redeemed to a kingdom of glory.

Now you teach we must all suffer as He suffered and do the works He did that is an anti-Chris teaching - there is no such teaching anywhere in any scripture or commentary by a GA - it is simply an imagination of your mind and you totally misunderstand the scripture.. There are so many scriptures on the atonement and resurrection that emphatically state there is only one Savior and one resurrection that is eternal and one mortal life to prepare - one cant simply ignore all those scriptures then misread one scripture out of context and out of line with GA teachings then surmise there are more than one mortal probation.

[Spaced_Out]

his is how you become perfect. Jesus said be perfect as I am perfect. Revelation says - once we reach that level - we will overcome even as He overcame. The scriptures are clear - crystal clear.

You teach MMP as a hidden mystery and deeper doctrine how is it crystal clear. It is not taught in the scriptures or handbooks of the LDS church or by any GA.

The scriptures teach the resurrection is the uniting of body and spirit never to be separated - that is crystal clear. Saying there is more than one resurrection that is darkness there is no such teaching in the church or scripture.
Scriptures teach us repent and come unto Christ and we will be save - you teach every person has to come down an live a sinless life in order to be saved - that is not clear but darkness --- how can you describe it as crystal clear....

There is no teaching the road to perfection is by MMP - it is not clear and not received by the Church - you cant teach it as being crystal clear the opposite is crystal clear....

[Elizabeth]

I personally have vivid and detailed memories of one particular past life, and recollections of three others. It has been suggested to me that these may be my observations in the pre mortal existence of the mortal lives of those to whom I was close to.

I keep an open mind and will wait till I pass from this mortal life when I may then know the answers.

[BruceRGilbert]

I personally have vivid and detailed memories of one particular past life, and recollections of three others. It has been suggested to me that these may be my observations in the pre mortal existence of the mortal lives of those to whom I was close to.

I keep an open mind and will wait till I pass from this mortal life when I may then know the answers.

As a viable and alternative explanation to your vivid and detailed memories, please consider the role of a "Guardian Angel" and a "Ministering Angel" for and in behalf of those whose lives you remember so well. These "assignments" are of such nature as to provide that which you describe.

Doctrine and Covenants 76:88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?

5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.

[janderich]

I believe in multiple eternal rounds and I believe in this scripture. I believe that we will dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. But here are a few verses you did not provide:

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

What do you think it takes to overcome all things? Do you believe you have done so because you are baptized and married in the temple? This question merits serious consideration.

I think I know what Joseph felt when he said:

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].” (History of the Church, 6:184–85)

Did Abraham overcome all things - yes he did is he now an exalted god. We do not need mortal probation in order to progress. One progression is much quicker with an immortal body.

Where did you get this idea that progression is much quicker with an immortal body? It doesn't come from a prophet or apostle so according to your own standard you are preaching false doctrine.

Living on earth 1,000 years with a celestial body having overcome sin - is overcoming all things.

This is another hearsay. What makes you say that living on the earth 1,000 years with a celestial body allows us to overcome sin, much less all things?

Satan has no power over a resurrected being who has the veil lifted and full knowledge of all things. There is nothing to overcome

More false doctrine. The BofM teaches us, "for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world." (Alma 34:34)

A child that dies after 1 minute goes strait to heaven and follows on the path to exaltation never to again suffer death gain.

The is false. The doctrine is that a child who dies after 1 minute enters the Celestial kingdom. However Joseph said that the child will still need to be sealed in order to gain exaltation.

It is a false notion that only in mortality we can progress. Satan never had a body but progressed to having authority int he presence of God, All the great and noble ones earned their status while in spirit. Jesus became perfect while still in spirit except for the restrictions of not having a 'physical body' . Having a resurrected body and the veil lifted we gain power over all things, indeed the scriptures say we are no longer acted upon.

I believe we can progress without a mortal body. But I believe there are certain lessons we can only learn in mortality (otherwise why would we come here at all).

Again, you do not know if Satan or the Savior had a body previously. I strongly suspect that in fact they both did, but we have no official statements on the matter.

You say you believe the scriptures but you lack understanding of them else you would not teach MMP - The Apostles of the Lord teach the opposite one mortal probation - yet you fly to pieces against the teachings of the church.

JS quote about members not accepting doctrine is more applicable to you - you do not accept the teachings of the scriptures or the teachings of the church but fly to pieces at the simple doctrine of the Resurrection.

In this short post you have presented so much false and inaccurate teaching that I believe I have proven my point, including the error of this statement.

[Alaris]

I personally have vivid and detailed memories of one particular past life, and recollections of three others. It has been suggested to me that these may be my observations in the pre mortal existence of the mortal lives of those to whom I was close to.

I keep an open mind and will wait till I pass from this mortal life when I may then know the answers.

As a viable and alternative explanation to your vivid and detailed memories, please consider the role of a "Guardian Angel" and a "Ministering Angel" for and in behalf of those whose lives you remember so well. These "assignments" are of such nature as to provide that which you describe.

I don't think Elizabeth described much of her pearls at all, and can you blame her? I'd be interested to know if these are first person memories or not.

[janderich]

One does not need to live a sinless life but repent and overcome the sin and be forgiven in this life. When we repent our sins are forgiven and no longer remembered - so when we die and come to the final judgement God will see us as having lived a sinless life, and will be resurrected to eternal life never to suffer pain in the flesh again. There is only one eternal and infinite sacrifice.
We do not need to overcome as He overcame there is no such teaching - we need to come forth sinless through repentance.

John sharing the words of the Savior tells us, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear the the Spirit saith..." (Rev 3:21). Spaced_Out can you hear what the Savior is telling us?

The scriptures are clear there is only one Anointed One, only one Savior for all of creations and those that are still to be, and if we repent we do not suffer as He suffered, an if we don't repent we suffer as he suffered and are then redeemed to a kingdom of glory.

"And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them." (Moses 2:27). How is it that he has and is creating man in the image of his Only Begotten? If it wasn't the Lord himself who spoke it, I'm sure you and Silver would cry "blasphemy"! As it is you will simply try and twist the words to fit your paradigm.

Now you teach we must all suffer as He suffered and do the works He did that is an anti-Chris teaching - there is no such teaching anywhere in any scripture or commentary by a GA - it is simply an imagination of your mind and you totally misunderstand the scripture..

Then Christ himself is anti-Christ for he says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12). Here is how that scripture is explained in Lectures on Faith, "All these sayings put together give as clear an account of the state of the glorified Saints as language could give—the works that Jesus had done they were to do, and greater works than those which he had done among them should they do, and that because he went to the Father. (lecture 7:12) When will you hear what the scriptures are saying? How long can you close your ears to the word of the Lord?