Multiple Mortal Probations Article

[Silver]

Jacob 7:
1 And now it came to pass after some years had passed away, there came a man among the people of Nephi, whose name was Sherem.

2 And it came to pass that he began to preach among the people, and to declare unto them that there should be no Christ. And he preached many things which were flattering unto the people; and this he did that he might overthrow the doctrine of Christ.

3 And he labored diligently that he might lead away the hearts of the people, insomuch that he did lead away many hearts; and he knowing that I, Jacob, had faith in Christ who should come, he sought much opportunity that he might come unto me.

4 And he was learned, that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people; wherefore, he could use much flattery, and much power of speech, according to the power of the devil.

5 And he had hope to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many revelations and the many things which I had seen concerning these things; for I truly had seen angels, and they had ministered unto me. And also, I had heard the voice of the Lord speaking unto me in very word, from time to time; wherefore, I could not be shaken.

[Contemplator]

You may, or may not, find this relevant.

A friend and I were having a conversation about the resurrection. He had studied the relevant scriptures and the teachings of modern prophets. I had also studied those same sources. He had felt the spirit testify to truths when studying those sources of truth, and so had I. Yet, we disagreed on a particular detail relative to the topic of resurrection. In fact, we started to debate in a manner that was becoming contentious. Not surprisingly, we did not learn much during a contentious discussion. Rather, we each more firmly defended our prior beliefs and questioned each others ability to be guided by the spirit.

Then, a scripture came up that neither of us could quite remember in detail. So, we read it together and discovered that we were both somewhat right, and somewhat wrong, in our prior beliefs. Sure enough, the spirit had testified to truth, but we had each bundled our own ideas into what the spirit had certified. Once we were humble, and unified, enough to learn we each had our understanding refined. And, a long friendship also resulted.

What does it feel like to be wrong? Just like being right! It is not being wrong that feels bad, it discovering that when you felt you were right you were actually wrong. So, we defend against finding out we are wrong. We:

1. Assume the other person does not know what we know (and throw more quotes at them)
2. If that does not work, we assume they don't understand the quotes as well as we do (and preach at them)
3. If that does not work, we assume they are evil (and condemn them)

The point is, just because you felt the spirit, or a particular authority said something, does not mean you have fully understood it. We learn when we are open to our understanding being refined and expanded.

Thank you for the discussion on these pages. There has been much good information discussed.

[inho]

"In 1889, President Wilford Woodruff addressed the topic:

I have heard that in Zion there are some men who entertain the idea that they inherit the body and spirit of Moses, or Abraham, or David, or Noah, or somebody other than themselves. I hope none of you here indulge in anything of this kind, because it is a most foolish, nonsensical and false doctrine. You gaze upon a man who professes to have inherited the body or spirit of Moses, or any of those I have named, and I think you will conclude that his appearance does not indicate that such is the case; at any rate, it certainly has not improved him. Brother Woodruff, Brother Cannon, Brother Smith, Brother Lorenzo Snow, or any of the brethren, will never inherit anyone's body or spirit but their own, in time or in eternity, unless the devil gets into them. It is Satan who inspires men to believe in such absurd things. He delights in having any of the brethren entertain false ideas, no matter what they are. I tell you that whoever sees me in time or eternity will see Wilford Woodruff, not Noah, nor Abraham, nor Enoch. Every man has his own identity, and he never will lose that identity. Therefore, when you hear such doctrine as that advanced, do not believe it. There are a good many things Satan would like us to believe; but we must guard against these. (Deseret New Weekly, 38:822-24, Collected Discourses, 1:262-63, emphasis added.)

This again is a specific type of transmigration and is actually similar to what Joseph Smith condemned (TPJS p. 104) - this time WW adds in inheriting the body and spirit of prophets.

I don't see the difference. Earlier you explained the transmigration of souls this way:

I forgot to address your "transmigration of souls" comment. If you look up the Joseph Smith quote, he's referring to a very specific doctrine where the souls of the fathers actually inhabit the souls of the sons iirc. So basically, you'd have all your fathers spirits crammed into your body. If I remember that incorrectly, it's certainly some very specific doctrine that is unlike MMP that Joseph Smith declares false.

D&C 107:3 Before his day it was called the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.
4 But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church, in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek Priesthood.

If Melchizedek was Christ in an earlier probation where He had not yet worked out the Atonement then it would still be named after Him but after a name that is less sacred? "The Jesus Christ Priesthood" does seem a bit wrong, doesn't it? The name of Jesus Christ is sacred for that is the name whereby He worked out our salvation.

Moreover, if Melchizedek is Christ, then there are so many layers of meaning unlocked by understanding why the Priesthood is named after an earlier mortal probation of Christ--THAT is the order we join and follow through to completion "the same as all Gods before us" have done. Otherwise why not name the priesthood after another great high priest--one whose story we know? There is truth yet to be unfolded about Melchizedek that also helps unlock understanding this Priesthood and this Order.

If Jesus could have been Melchizedek, why can't the people WW is addressing have been Moses, Abraham or Noah?

[Silver]

You may, or may not, find this relevant.

A friend and I were having a conversation about the resurrection. He had studied the relevant scriptures and the teachings of modern prophets. I had also studied those same sources. He had felt the spirit testify to truths when studying those sources of truth, and so had I. Yet, we disagreed on a particular detail relative to the topic of resurrection. In fact, we started to debate in a manner that was becoming contentious. Not surprisingly, we did not learn much during a contentious discussion. Rather, we each more firmly defended our prior beliefs and questioned each others ability to be guided by the spirit.

Then, a scripture came up that neither of us could quite remember in detail. So, we read it together and discovered that we were both somewhat right, and somewhat wrong, in our prior beliefs. Sure enough, the spirit had testified to truth, but we had each bundled our own ideas into what the spirit had certified. Once we were humble, and unified, enough to learn we each had our understanding refined. And, a long friendship also resulted.

What does it feel like to be wrong? Just like being right! It is not being wrong that feels bad, it discovering that when you felt you were right you were actually wrong. So, we defend against finding out we are wrong. We:

1. Assume the other person does not know what we know (and throw more quotes at them)
2. If that does not work, we assume they don't understand the quotes as well as we do (and preach at them)
3. If that does not work, we assume they are evil (and condemn them)

The point is, just because you felt the spirit, or a particular authority said something, does not mean you have fully understood it. We learn when we are open to our understanding being refined and expanded.

Thank you for the discussion on these pages. There has been much good information discussed.

Some good comments, and I thank you for them. If you would like to increase your understanding then go back and read the earliest posts by alaris. He is wrong on more than just MMP.

[Spaced_Out]

I don't believe he is talking about eternal increase. For brevities sake I didn't provide the complete quote but let me share the middle section. Brigham says:

We know nothing about how many time it can be divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals,
in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless. To illustrate, you take a perfectly ripe kernel of corn - you will have some here perhaps in a few days - adn if you get a glass, it does not require a very powerful one, and you take the chit of this corn and open it, you behold distinctly a stalk of corn, in that chit, a perfectly grown stalk of corn, awith ears annd leaves on it, matured, out in blossom, - there is the tassel, there are the ears and there is the corn! Well, you get a stronger glass and divide agaain, and you can see that this very chit is the grandfather of corn! We take this scientific world this. Well, how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable...

Now then, it is clear here that he is talking about how many times the corn can be divided. He is not talking about how a corn can beget more corn. He has not mentioned that at all here.

I think perhaps it is worth while to provide a few more quotes on MMP. For instance Wilford Woodruff copied down Joseph's words which were spoken at a Lyceum in Nauvoo in 1941 (just before the King Follett sermon). Here is what Wilford Woodruff wrote:

Joseph the Seer taught the following principl that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the HHoly Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory (Book of Revelations, see https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryM ... IE11092999 and https://bycommonconsent.com/2017/10/03/ ... velations/

What makes this quote particularly interesting is the statement, "& so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory". So many who read the King Follett sermon want to say that there is some progression for a perfect being "Jesus" to become a God, but there is no such progression for us. But Joseph's quote here clarifies that we are part of the mix.

I'm out of time. Maybe latter I can provide more quotes from the early leaders on this topic.

When we die and are resurrected we gain eternal life not eternal lives.. We gain immortality and if righteous eternal life through the resurrection - which is the greatest gift of God. A seed can divide itself into eternal lives... No a seed is potential for offspring.
NO it is most definitely talking about eternal increase that is why BY references the temple ordinances then a singular resurrection then eternal increase - unless one has lying heart it is not possible to interpret it any other way.

Gods entire purpose is immortality and eternal life of Man. Immortality means no more mortality and death, eternal life is no more separation from God. You cant change the definition of the words.


immortality
noun
the ability to live forever; eternal life.

https://www.lds.org/topics/resurrection?lang=eng
Because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, we are subject to physical death, which is the separation of the spirit from the body. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death (see 1 Corinthians 15:22). Resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit with the body in an immortal state, no longer subject to disease or death.

[Silver]

Matthew 13:
24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

It's really no surprise that there are tares growing up in the midst of the wheat. After all, an enemy hath done this.

So the big issue is which side in this discussion is the wheat and which is the tare. To be the wheat, we have to be in concert with the living prophets and apostles. For the tares to be right, they have to claim, at least in their hearts, that the current leadership of the Church has gone astray. Since that has not happened, the tares -- the MMP supporters -- are wrong. It's not complicated at all.

Speaking for myself, I have a testimony that the current members of the First Presidency and the 10 members of the Quorum of the 12 are holy men, called by God. Therefore, when one of them says there is but one mortal experience, I'm taking that statement to the bank. The tares will justify their apostasy by making excuses about what a living apostle has just said. No man is so blind as he who will not see.

[Spaced_Out]

I have told you I will be happy to admit I am wrong when a prophet - who has the sole authority to define doctrine - declares it false - or at the judgement bar - whichever happens first. If President Uchtdorf said that and it was an answer to your prayers - great! Pardon my incredulity but every single person who has chimed in on this thread and offered either scriptural or extra-scriptural evidence to refute MMP hasn't come anywhere near compelling. Otherwise, why would you be holding your breath for this answer to your prayers? What have you been praying for? My soul or being proven right?

alaris: again very dishonest. You continually say people must pray and the evil one invites people not to pray. You also continually say only a prophet of God can correct you as you have some higher knowledge or something.. People are very frustrated with your constant blaspheming - and pray that they can put this to an end once and for all. Now an apostle of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in answer to their prays.

WHAT do you do you mock and scorn their prays and make light of it.. Your soul has been proven wrong. An apostle of of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in line with church teachings and scriptures. You are also dishonest as we have shared many scriptures that prove without a doubt that there is no more mortal probation...

Why invite people to pray the scorn and mock and make light of an Apostle of the Lord. What give you the right to preach MMP is LDS doctrine when an Apostle teaches otherwise - do you think your right and authority exceeds that of the Apostle... You have nothing but lies and the cunning of the devil...

I noticed the triple angry faces in your response to Janderich. Did you know that the Lord has taught us the spirit of contention of the devil and it is not His doctrine to stir the hearts up to anger but that such things should be done away? And now you've given more exposition on why prayer is a waste of time as well as More false accusations of dishonesty. These are the fruits of a dark spirit that can only hope to anger people, shame people, and scare people away from prayer.

There is no prophet or apostle who can say anything but that we can get on our knees and pray about it and receive our own confirmation. I realize MMP is a meaty doctrine. However the fruits of those who believe it are in stark contrast to those who vehemently, angrily, and frantically oppose it here.

The feigned shock at how anyone can believe in mmp after Elder Uchtdorfs youth talk is the real dishonesty. The scope and context of mmp is so vast that his comments can at the very least be seen in the scope and scale of one eternal round.

Dissenting opiners (seems nicer than naysayers) in this thread aren't all this way so I'll be focusing on those who understand that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't justify contention and certainly didn't instigate contention when He as our God and Judge pronounced woes on the true heretics. You cannot selectively choose to embrace contention at the expense of His gospel... And that command He gave to avoid it. What a sad place to be.

One needs to be a defender of the faith or valiant in their testimony of Christ a deciding factor to those entering the celestial kingdom. Calling out the Woolf in sheep clothing is and standing as a watchman on the tower is also a key requirement of salvation. Your sheeps clothing has fallen off and all you can say is you are contentious therefore you are wrong. Any person who teaches against your facilities is called contentious and you mock and deride them. - Only you can receive revelation as any person giving testimony is derided if it does not suit your false doctrine..

[Alaris]

"In 1889, President Wilford Woodruff addressed the topic:

I have heard that in Zion there are some men who entertain the idea that they inherit the body and spirit of Moses, or Abraham, or David, or Noah, or somebody other than themselves. I hope none of you here indulge in anything of this kind, because it is a most foolish, nonsensical and false doctrine. You gaze upon a man who professes to have inherited the body or spirit of Moses, or any of those I have named, and I think you will conclude that his appearance does not indicate that such is the case; at any rate, it certainly has not improved him. Brother Woodruff, Brother Cannon, Brother Smith, Brother Lorenzo Snow, or any of the brethren, will never inherit anyone's body or spirit but their own, in time or in eternity, unless the devil gets into them. It is Satan who inspires men to believe in such absurd things. He delights in having any of the brethren entertain false ideas, no matter what they are. I tell you that whoever sees me in time or eternity will see Wilford Woodruff, not Noah, nor Abraham, nor Enoch. Every man has his own identity, and he never will lose that identity. Therefore, when you hear such doctrine as that advanced, do not believe it. There are a good many things Satan would like us to believe; but we must guard against these. (Deseret New Weekly, 38:822-24, Collected Discourses, 1:262-63, emphasis added.)

This again is a specific type of transmigration and is actually similar to what Joseph Smith condemned (TPJS p. 104) - this time WW adds in inheriting the body and spirit of prophets.

I don't see the difference. Earlier you explained the transmigration of souls this way:

I forgot to address your "transmigration of souls" comment. If you look up the Joseph Smith quote, he's referring to a very specific doctrine where the souls of the fathers actually inhabit the souls of the sons iirc. So basically, you'd have all your fathers spirits crammed into your body. If I remember that incorrectly, it's certainly some very specific doctrine that is unlike MMP that Joseph Smith declares false.

D&C 107:3 Before his day it was called the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.
4 But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church, in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek Priesthood.

If Melchizedek was Christ in an earlier probation where He had not yet worked out the Atonement then it would still be named after Him but after a name that is less sacred? "The Jesus Christ Priesthood" does seem a bit wrong, doesn't it? The name of Jesus Christ is sacred for that is the name whereby He worked out our salvation.

Moreover, if Melchizedek is Christ, then there are so many layers of meaning unlocked by understanding why the Priesthood is named after an earlier mortal probation of Christ--THAT is the order we join and follow through to completion "the same as all Gods before us" have done. Otherwise why not name the priesthood after another great high priest--one whose story we know? There is truth yet to be unfolded about Melchizedek that also helps unlock understanding this Priesthood and this Order.

If Jesus could have been Melchizedek, why can't the people WW is addressing have been Moses, Abraham or Noah?

Great question. First, take into consideration this is not a prophet who is the only one who may define doctrine. Second, we don't have the machinations revealed - there is so little revealed about the premortal life and even the postmortal life. Why? We go to the temple for higher learning where everything is extremely symbolic. Why? Third, could such machinations reveal that you get one mortal probation only per eternal round unless you are a the level of Son or Archangel or whatever? Absolutely.

This is why I included the quote from Joseph Smith about the difference between believing and unbelieving and why the latter is the one that results in condemnation. I appreciate your candor inho and your civility, but with so little revealed it is pure folly to seek the mysteries from a standing of unbelief as Joseph Smith puts it.

Like Janderich said, I too am open to being wrong in any and all dotted connections I make. Those who seek these mysteries cannot do so from a standpoint of trying to set the limits and walls and seek to exclude the possibility of MMP being true without ever having followed the model of seek, ponder, and pray. The starting point of most of the dissension in this thread is one of "can't be" followed by a search for scriptures and quotes that fill a confirmation bias in what can't be. I'm not lumping every dissenting opinion in here, but it certainly is a commonality and that attitude cannot exist simultaneously with the recipe of seeking. That is why several scriptures point out the truth that those who harden their hards and say we have enough are doomed to - not only stagnation - but both a loss of knowledge as well as a binding to the adversary that results in chains at some point. Doesn't that help explain the Internet Troll phenomena in general? Poor Internet Trolls are stuck looking for opportunities to antagonize people by the spirit of contention because they are now bound to that spirit. Whether you say "we have enough" or "I know enough" already with the gospel - or any subect be it car forums or gardening forum - those trolls who linger looking to elevate themselves at someone else's expense are bound to that same spirit. It's just extremely sad to see LDS bound to that spirit who are stuck mocking and condeming and belittling, etc. etc. - all the while using scriptures and the Savior Himself to justify such deplorable behavior. But I digress ...

If I may be so bold as to speak on behalf of abijah and janderich and others who are LDS who believe MMP, our starting point is one of seeking and willing to be wrong in order to discover what is true. And as you seek the mysteries - as you uncover them line upon line there will be more questions than answers - in fact there will always be new questions until that perfect day. And, just as President Uchtdorf put it in his recent talk - would you have it any other way? Would you want to shortcut this beautiful process of learning and unveiling and uncovering truth?

There were certainly moments when I received just a word or a few words - by that still small voice - that were extremely difficult for me to accept. One truth was unveiled to me that took me about 2 years to accept, and I don't even know whether I'm all the way there yet! This is also why I don't condemn anyone for not believing MMP and why I stick to the fruits of those who oppose it most vehemently. You will never be able to accomplish the Lord's will by the devil's doctrine. I am just sharing what I have learned and ask others to seek for themselves and pray on it.

[Alaris]

I have told you I will be happy to admit I am wrong when a prophet - who has the sole authority to define doctrine - declares it false - or at the judgement bar - whichever happens first. If President Uchtdorf said that and it was an answer to your prayers - great! Pardon my incredulity but every single person who has chimed in on this thread and offered either scriptural or extra-scriptural evidence to refute MMP hasn't come anywhere near compelling. Otherwise, why would you be holding your breath for this answer to your prayers? What have you been praying for? My soul or being proven right?

alaris: again very dishonest. You continually say people must pray and the evil one invites people not to pray. You also continually say only a prophet of God can correct you as you have some higher knowledge or something.. People are very frustrated with your constant blaspheming - and pray that they can put this to an end once and for all. Now an apostle of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in answer to their prays.

WHAT do you do you mock and scorn their prays and make light of it.. Your soul has been proven wrong. An apostle of of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in line with church teachings and scriptures. You are also dishonest as we have shared many scriptures that prove without a doubt that there is no more mortal probation...

Why invite people to pray the scorn and mock and make light of an Apostle of the Lord. What give you the right to preach MMP is LDS doctrine when an Apostle teaches otherwise - do you think your right and authority exceeds that of the Apostle... You have nothing but lies and the cunning of the devil...

I noticed the triple angry faces in your response to Janderich. Did you know that the Lord has taught us the spirit of contention of the devil and it is not His doctrine to stir the hearts up to anger but that such things should be done away? And now you've given more exposition on why prayer is a waste of time as well as More false accusations of dishonesty. These are the fruits of a dark spirit that can only hope to anger people, shame people, and scare people away from prayer.

There is no prophet or apostle who can say anything but that we can get on our knees and pray about it and receive our own confirmation. I realize MMP is a meaty doctrine. However the fruits of those who believe it are in stark contrast to those who vehemently, angrily, and frantically oppose it here.

The feigned shock at how anyone can believe in mmp after Elder Uchtdorfs youth talk is the real dishonesty. The scope and context of mmp is so vast that his comments can at the very least be seen in the scope and scale of one eternal round.

Dissenting opiners (seems nicer than naysayers) in this thread aren't all this way so I'll be focusing on those who understand that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't justify contention and certainly didn't instigate contention when He as our God and Judge pronounced woes on the true heretics. You cannot selectively choose to embrace contention at the expense of His gospel... And that command He gave to avoid it. What a sad place to be.

One needs to be a defender of the faith or valiant in their testimony of Christ a deciding factor to those entering the celestial kingdom. Calling out the Woolf in sheep clothing is and standing as a watchman on the tower is also a key requirement of salvation. Your sheeps clothing has fallen off and all you can say is you are contentious therefore you are wrong. Any person who teaches against your facilities is called contentious and you mock and deride them. - Only you can receive revelation as any person giving testimony is derided if it does not suit your false doctrine..

Alright Spaced_Out. For the sake of our positive interactions we have had, I'll give you one last chance as well to engage in a civil, respectful debate. If you can stick to the substance and drop these condemnations and stop misstating me, I'll be happy to continue this conversation. You do not hold any keys that I do not hold myself brother. You can call me a wolf, but to what end? This is one reason why I chose to remain anonymous on my blog. Can there be vainglory if I am anonymous? You can see on my blog I haven't monetized it. I am not justifying polygamy, and I'm certainly not condoning procrastinating the day of your repentance via MMP.

Not coincidentally, another reason I chose to remain anonymous is I knew that these truths would be vehemently opposed as truth always is. Given all the ridiculous attacks on my integrity and character in this thread have certainly reinforced my decision. What's next? Death threats? That is certainly the same spirit that stirs people into a frenzy of anger.

Alma to Korihor, an antichrist:

Alma 30:32 Now Alma said unto him: Thou knowest that we do not glut ourselves upon the labors of this people; for behold I have labored even from the commencement of the reign of the judges until now, with mine own hands for my support, notwithstanding my many travels round about the land to declare the word of God unto my people.
33 And notwithstanding the many labors which I have performed in the church, I have never received so much as even one senine for my labor; neither has any of my brethren, save it were in the judgment-seat; and then we have received only according to law for our time.
34 And now, if we do not receive anything for our labors in the church, what doth it profit us to labor in the church save it were to declare the truth, that we may have rejoicings in the joy of our brethren?
35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that causes such joy in their hearts?

Like Alma, I have no other object than sharing what I am permitted to share to experience joy with my brothers and sisters who see eye to eye. Never do I ask anyone to take my word for anything I have written. Pray.

If you read my seven levels articles, you'll see that each level is an important rung on that ladder. We know more work is to be done towards working out our own exaltation beyond the veil.

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268).

Let's say for the sake of argument there are 100 additional steps that must be taken towards exaltation beyond this life. Whether those 100 steps are taken in the spirit, in a resurrected body, or in another mortal body beyond this life does this factor make any step in the process of becoming a God more or less essential? Of course not.

Those who have chimed in for MMP in this thread have indicated - as I - that this fruit is delicious and deepens my testimony and increases my desire to become like Christ. I know with a perfect knowledge therefore that it is sent forth by the gift and power of Christ.

Moroni 7:16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

[Silver]

Alma to Korihor, an antichrist:

Alma 30:32 Now Alma said unto him: Thou knowest that we do not glut ourselves upon the labors of this people; for behold I have labored even from the commencement of the reign of the judges until now, with mine own hands for my support, notwithstanding my many travels round about the land to declare the word of God unto my people.
33 And notwithstanding the many labors which I have performed in the church, I have never received so much as even one senine for my labor; neither has any of my brethren, save it were in the judgment-seat; and then we have received only according to law for our time.
34 And now, if we do not receive anything for our labors in the church, what doth it profit us to labor in the church save it were to declare the truth, that we may have rejoicings in the joy of our brethren?
35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that causes such joy in their hearts?

If you read my seven levels articles, you'll see that each level is an important rung on that ladder. We know more work is to be done towards working out our own exaltation beyond the veil.

Korihor...that would be funny if it weren't so sad. You, alarisherem, are the Korihor to whom Alma was speaking.

As for your 7 chakra nonsense article, just more evidence that you are messed up. You really need to speak with your bishop.

[Charles7]

My thoughts on Eternal Lives

On the matter of multiple probations, it has been my understanding through personal revelation that we live many lives while hopefully progressing toward perfection, but once we receive the endowments of the temple, and honor them, then upon that death it is not necessary to return to this earth. Thus, the atonement takes on meaning and importance. At that time, we are able to enter the kingdom of paradise
However many do return from the paradise state for further progression. There is no end to progression, hence the eternal round.


Actually, there are four possibilities for those who enter the paradise state. The first is to simply remain there, enjoying the peace and beauty thereof. Secondly, they might enter the spirit prison such as a missionary preparing those who are ready to receive the work for the dead done in the physical temples. Third, they can continue progression by acting as guides or angels for the living. Lastly, some return to the earth in physical form to complete a great work or task. These are the great ones who walk among us.
I know this is not scripture and I am not suggesting or teaching it as such. It is, however, personal revelation and I know it to be true

Welcome to the discussion, Charles7. What's your religion?

I am LDS

[Frutothsprt]

I am sort of new to the forum, at least in an active way. I tried to look through most of this thread, but couldn't find it. Has alaris talked much about why we even need a Savior with this "doctrine"?

[Alaris]

I am sort of new to the forum, at least in an active way. I tried to look through most of this thread, but couldn't find it. Has alaris talked much about why we even need a Savior with this "doctrine"?

Welcome! Yes he and others have. You cannot traverse into a new eternal round without a Savior. This is what would happen to us :

2 Nephi 9:8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.
10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.

This truth is symbolized when we partake of the Sacrament every week on the first day of the week. The Saviors changing of the Sabbath from the seventh day to the eighth day symbolizes that his Atonement is what allows us to continue on to become like Him.. To overcome the end into the next beginning. This weekly renewing of covenants symbolizes the covenants we make at the beginning of a new round going from smaller capacities to greater capacities. Have you read my article linked in the OP?

[Silver]

And still alaris insists that everybody pray about his false teachings. We're bad if we don't pray. You can see the flaw in his pleading, can't you?

I have been praying and fasting and going to Church and attending the temple and reading the scriptures and trying to stay worthy of the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost for decades. I have been blessed with many miracles throughout my life. No, really, miracles. I know God lives. I know His true Church has been established upon the earth again.

So when somebody comes along with a tall tale, I can usually tell by the power of the Holy Ghost that it is not true. If we didn't use the Gift of the Holy Ghost in this way, why even have it?

A prophet of God has just told the young adults in the Church that there is but one experience with mortality.
An anonymous person on the Internet says there are many.
Based on my testimony of living prophets alone, I automatically choose to believe Elder Uchtdorf. Based on my understanding of the Plan of Salvation, I know alaris is wrong.

This thread started on Dec 26. Over three weeks have elapsed and still we are subjected to alaris kicking against the pricks with his foolish beliefs. He may go on for another three weeks, but it doesn't change the fact that he is in opposition to the doctrines of the Church. So who's being contentious after all? Why, in fact, doesn't the devil let alaris stop preaching evil on LDSFF?

I've joked around a lot in this thread, but I am serious in my recommendation that alaris jettison the MMP heresy for his own soul and for the souls of those close to him. He is placing the salvation of others in jeopardy by subtly dragging them away from the profound beauty of the Gospel. How many unfortunate converts has he already made on this forum?

The Gospel is simple: faith, repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost, temple, endure to the end, and receive your eternal reward. It is the ultimate mockery of God's truth to claim that some poor soul has to repeat the mortal process time after time.

Remember the Alamo! No, not the Alamo. Alvin. Remember Alvin. He is one of Joseph Smith, Jr.'s older brothers.

"D&C 137:
5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;"

Now, if you want to pervert the pure truths of the scriptures, tell me that after Alvin died, he still had to go through multiple mortality probations. That he wouldn't make it to the Celestial Kingdom as revealed in the scriptures. And what of agency? What if Alvin decided he didn't want to go through another mortal experience? What if all of us decided in that grand council in heaven that we didn't want to experience more than one mortality? If it were Heavenly Father's plan for us to go through MMP, would he have been forced to banish us all from His presence? Would we have all been cast out with Lucifer? No, that ridiculous idea "makes reason stare."

From the hymn O My Father:
4. When I leave this frail existence,
When I lay this mortal by,
Father, Mother, may I meet you
In your royal courts on high?
Then, at length, when I’ve completed
All you sent me forth to do,
With your mutual approbation
Let me come and dwell with you.

alaris is wrong. The scriptures and the living prophets are right.

[Silver]

My thoughts on Eternal Lives

On the matter of multiple probations, it has been my understanding through personal revelation that we live many lives while hopefully progressing toward perfection, but once we receive the endowments of the temple, and honor them, then upon that death it is not necessary to return to this earth. Thus, the atonement takes on meaning and importance. At that time, we are able to enter the kingdom of paradise
However many do return from the paradise state for further progression. There is no end to progression, hence the eternal round.


Actually, there are four possibilities for those who enter the paradise state. The first is to simply remain there, enjoying the peace and beauty thereof. Secondly, they might enter the spirit prison such as a missionary preparing those who are ready to receive the work for the dead done in the physical temples. Third, they can continue progression by acting as guides or angels for the living. Lastly, some return to the earth in physical form to complete a great work or task. These are the great ones who walk among us.
I know this is not scripture and I am not suggesting or teaching it as such. It is, however, personal revelation and I know it to be true

Welcome to the discussion, Charles7. What's your religion?

I am LDS

Then you believe things in opposition to the teachings of the Church.

[Frutothsprt]

I am sort of new to the forum, at least in an active way. I tried to look through most of this thread, but couldn't find it. Has alaris talked much about why we even need a Savior with this "doctrine"?

Welcome! Yes he and others have. You cannot traverse into a new eternal round without a Savior. This is what would happen to us :

2 Nephi 9:8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.
10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.

This truth is symbolized when we partake of the Sacrament every week on the first day of the week. The Saviors changing of the Sabbath from the seventh day to the eighth day symbolizes that his Atonement is what allows us to continue on to become like Him.. To overcome the end into the next beginning. This weekly renewing of covenants symbolizes the covenants we make at the beginning of a new round going from smaller capacities to greater capacities. Have you read my article linked in the OP?

I did read most of it, but after reading “The Infinate Atonement” it’s just hard for me to draw a conclusion that Christ is only the Savior for this “round”.

[Alaris]

I am sort of new to the forum, at least in an active way. I tried to look through most of this thread, but couldn't find it. Has alaris talked much about why we even need a Savior with this "doctrine"?

Welcome! Yes he and others have. You cannot traverse into a new eternal round without a Savior. This is what would happen to us :

2 Nephi 9:8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.
10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.

This truth is symbolized when we partake of the Sacrament every week on the first day of the week. The Saviors changing of the Sabbath from the seventh day to the eighth day symbolizes that his Atonement is what allows us to continue on to become like Him.. To overcome the end into the next beginning. This weekly renewing of covenants symbolizes the covenants we make at the beginning of a new round going from smaller capacities to greater capacities. Have you read my article linked in the OP?

I did read most of it, but after reading “The Infinate Atonement” it’s just hard for me to draw a conclusion that Christ is only the Savior for this “round”.

I hear you. If Heavenly Father was a Savior like Joseph Smith taught, then who did he save? Certainly not Jesus Christ.

Who will save your spirit children some day?

[Spaced_Out]

I hear you. If Heavenly Father was a Savior like Joseph Smith taught, then who did he save? Certainly not Jesus Christ.

Who will save your spirit children some day?

That is conjecture but it does not teach MMP. There is only one Infinite and eternal sacrifice there can be no more sacrifice Alma 34. All of Gods children were at the plan presented at the council in heaven while all only had a spiritual bodies. Hence Satan and his followers 1/3 of the host of heaven cast out never to get a body. Jesus was chooses to make the atonement and infinite and eternal sacrifice. There is no other one to be sacrificed.

D&C19: 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

If we live righteously in the resurrection we gain eternal life, never to suffer the pains of mortality again never to be separated from God again. Eternal life is linked to the first resurrection of the just. That is the redemption of man.

Thomas S. Monson- The Race of Life (April 2012)
“As the result of Christ’s victory over the grave, we shall all be resurrected. This is the redemption of the soul.

Mosiah 15:23-24
23 They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death.

Mosiah 18:13
13 And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a ccovenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world

.

Mosiah 18:9
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

Alma 34
10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

Yes some teach that our Heavenly Father was also a saviour for all of his Fathers children. That also confirms the doctrine of only one savour for all eternal increase to gods male and female. It does not teach MMP or does it teach that every person entering the celestial kingdom has to come down to mortality and live a sinless life. There is only one first born and only one chosen and only one sacrifice needed.
Yes it is plainly taught the pattern repeats as man is God once was, and so it goes no throughout all eternity.

To enter the celestial kingdom all one has to do is be free from sin. ie repent of our sins. One does not have to be perfect. In heaven we grow grace to grace without sinning as Christ grew from grace to grace in mortality without sinning.

There is no deep dark mystery no truth hidden the very many scriptures are plain and easy to understand. If you think that you will some day stand up and cause a war in heaven and cause 1/3 of the host of heave to fall then say I will be the one I will save all, I will be the sacrifice you are delusional....

Many have received forgiveness of their sins while in mortality.

[Spaced_Out]

And still alaris insists that everybody pray about his false teachings. We're bad if we don't pray. You can see the flaw in his pleading, can't you?

I have been praying and fasting and going to Church and attending the temple and reading the scriptures and trying to stay worthy of the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost for decades. I have been blessed with many miracles throughout my life. No, really, miracles. I know God lives. I know His true Church has been established upon the earth again.

So when somebody comes along with a tall tale, I can usually tell by the power of the Holy Ghost that it is not true. If we didn't use the Gift of the Holy Ghost in this way, why even have it?

A prophet of God has just told the young adults in the Church that there is but one experience with mortality.
An anonymous person on the Internet says there are many.
Based on my testimony of living prophets alone, I automatically choose to believe Elder Uchtdorf. Based on my understanding of the Plan of Salvation, I know alaris is wrong.

This thread started on Dec 26. Over three weeks have elapsed and still we are subjected to alaris kicking against the pricks with his foolish beliefs. He may go on for another three weeks, but it doesn't change the fact that he is in opposition to the doctrines of the Church. So who's being contentious after all? Why, in fact, doesn't the devil let alaris stop preaching evil on LDSFF?

I've joked around a lot in this thread, but I am serious in my recommendation that alaris jettison the MMP heresy for his own soul and for the souls of those close to him. He is placing the salvation of others in jeopardy by subtly dragging them away from the profound beauty of the Gospel. How many unfortunate converts has he already made on this forum?

The Gospel is simple: faith, repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost, temple, endure to the end, and receive your eternal reward. It is the ultimate mockery of God's truth to claim that some poor soul has to repeat the mortal process time after time.

Remember the Alamo! No, not the Alamo. Alvin. Remember Alvin. He is one of Joseph Smith, Jr.'s older brothers.

"D&C 137:
5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;"

Now, if you want to pervert the pure truths of the scriptures, tell me that after Alvin died, he still had to go through multiple mortality probations. That he wouldn't make it to the Celestial Kingdom as revealed in the scriptures. And what of agency? What if Alvin decided he didn't want to go through another mortal experience? What if all of us decided in that grand council in heaven that we didn't want to experience more than one mortality? If it were Heavenly Father's plan for us to go through MMP, would he have been forced to banish us all from His presence? Would we have all been cast out with Lucifer? No, that ridiculous idea "makes reason stare."

From the hymn O My Father:
4. When I leave this frail existence,
When I lay this mortal by,
Father, Mother, may I meet you
In your royal courts on high?
Then, at length, when I’ve completed
All you sent me forth to do,
With your mutual approbation
Let me come and dwell with you.

alaris is wrong. The scriptures and the living prophets are right.

Yes I have brought this up many time all children prior to the age of accountability are saved and gain eternal life never to be separated from God.

Doctrine and Covenants 45:58
58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

Resurrected saved unto eternal life all during the millennium to inherit the earth and live with Christ for ever .

Another scripture damming MMP, the resurrection is the redemption of man and those that gain the first resurrection at the second coming . dwell with Christ for ever and ever ie gain eternal life the greatest gift God has to offer...

Doctrine and Covenants 76:62
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

[Spaced_Out]

Alright Spaced_Out. For the sake of our positive interactions we have had, I'll give you one last chance as well to engage in a civil, respectful debate. If you can stick to the substance and drop these condemnations and stop misstating me, I'll be happy to continue this conversation. You do not hold any keys that I do not hold myself brother. You can call me a wolf, but to what end? This is one reason why I chose to remain anonymous on my blog. Can there be vainglory if I am anonymous? You can see on my blog I haven't monetized it. I am not justifying polygamy, and I'm certainly not condoning procrastinating the day of your repentance via MMP.

I don't care what you say about not procrastinating the day of your repentance, the nature of man is such - that is why and apostle of the Lord teaches to the youth there is only one mortal probation. Why because the nature of man is to procrastinate, we are in a natural and fallen state. Teaching others there is MMP is going to cause them to procrastinate, it is a very dangerous and false teaching..

I asked you what authority you have to teach a different doctrine to the Apostle of the Lord - the best you can come up with is what authority do I have to judge you. ??

There is one Lord one Faith one Baptism that all might be in unity of faith, but alaris teaches a different doctrine a different faith, ie out of unity with the church - what is the purpose of such a thing that can only bring disunity and break down the church of God on Earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 38:27
27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

[Silver]

I am sort of new to the forum, at least in an active way. I tried to look through most of this thread, but couldn't find it. Has alaris talked much about why we even need a Savior with this "doctrine"?

Welcome! Yes he and others have. You cannot traverse into a new eternal round without a Savior. This is what would happen to us :

2 Nephi 9:8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.
10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.

This truth is symbolized when we partake of the Sacrament every week on the first day of the week. The Saviors changing of the Sabbath from the seventh day to the eighth day symbolizes that his Atonement is what allows us to continue on to become like Him.. To overcome the end into the next beginning. This weekly renewing of covenants symbolizes the covenants we make at the beginning of a new round going from smaller capacities to greater capacities. Have you read my article linked in the OP?

I did read most of it, but after reading “The Infinate Atonement” it’s just hard for me to draw a conclusion that Christ is only the Savior for this “round”.

In the April 2017 General Conference, both Elder M. Russell Ballard & President (of the 12 at the time) Russell M. Nelson recommended the reading of The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles (in the mouth of two witnesses...). In the October 2017 General Conference, Sister Jean B. Bingham, Relief Society General President, echoed their words and spoke of that marvelous document (in the mouth of three witnesses...will you listen now?).

Did you heed their counsel? Have you been reading the testimony of those men who are called, by God Himself, as they urged you to? If you had you wouldn't be confused about the role of Jesus Christ in saving an infinite number of souls.

So you can listen to alarisherem, a man who, even though he returned to the Church after excommunication, still complains about Church leadership and teaches false doctrine. Or you can follow the Apostles who tell you about the true power of our Savior and the truth of (just one) mortal experience. If that's a difficult choice for you, then you need to see your bishop as well.

As for you, alarisherem, I pity your sick soul. You'll be hobbling around on your your ankles soon so hard do you kick against the pricks.

Doctor: Dude, what happened?! You've got no feet!
alarisherem: Yeah, I didn't listen to the prophets and so I kicked against firm doctrine so hard that it tore my feet right off. Funny how I had everything figured out in my head and I didn't even think I needed my feet at the time.

[janderich]

Another scripture damming MMP, the resurrection is the redemption of man and those that gain the first resurrection at the second coming . dwell with Christ for ever and ever ie gain eternal life the greatest gift God has to offer...

Doctrine and Covenants 76:62
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

I believe in multiple eternal rounds and I believe in this scripture. I believe that we will dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. But here are a few verses you did not provide:

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

What do you think it takes to overcome all things? Do you believe you have done so because you are baptized and married in the temple? This question merits serious consideration.

I think I know what Joseph felt when he said:

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].” (History of the Church, 6:184–85)

[Red]

My thoughts on Eternal Lives

On the matter of multiple probations, it has been my understanding through personal revelation that we live many lives while hopefully progressing toward perfection, but once we receive the endowments of the temple, and honor them, then upon that death it is not necessary to return to this earth. Thus, the atonement takes on meaning and importance. At that time, we are able to enter the kingdom of paradise
However many do return from the paradise state for further progression. There is no end to progression, hence the eternal round.


Actually, there are four possibilities for those who enter the paradise state. The first is to simply remain there, enjoying the peace and beauty thereof. Secondly, they might enter the spirit prison such as a missionary preparing those who are ready to receive the work for the dead done in the physical temples. Third, they can continue progression by acting as guides or angels for the living. Lastly, some return to the earth in physical form to complete a great work or task. These are the great ones who walk among us.
I know this is not scripture and I am not suggesting or teaching it as such. It is, however, personal revelation and I know it to be true

Would you mind expounding on the endowment part? What about the endowment makes it unnecessary?

[inho]

Great question. First, take into consideration this is not a prophet who is the only one who may define doctrine.

Who are you referring to? Elizabeth quoted Wilford Woodruff and the year was 1889. In 1889, Woodruff was either the president of the church or lead the church as the president of the twelve.

Anyway,I still don't see any difference between MMP you are teaching and the ideas president Woodruff is condemning

[mirkwood]

It is simply stunning that any LDS would so discount the atonement. As for the non LDS it isn't that much of a surprise. Alaris may attend the LDS church, but he certainly does not believe the doctrines. For you lurkers: He can scream as loudly as he likes that he is LDS and believes in LDS doctrines, but he has clearly (and cleverly) shown he does not believe in LDS doctrine. If you wish to follow his heresy you are free to do so, just be honest with yourselves (unlike alaris) and know that you are not following LDS doctrine.