Multiple Mortal Probations Article

[Kingdom of ZION]

Moreover, it doesn't matter if I'm contentious or not.

Really... so then the end justify the means in your book?
I am glad I follow the Messiah's book!

[Alaris]

I'm always open to change and seek to deepen my understanding. But as of right now, I believe in multiple eternal rounds. That means we come to earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, and then after a long time we repeat the process. We come down again to a mortal earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, etc.

Now to your question on spirit bodies and the resurrection... What happens to our bodies at the resurrection? We say our spirit and our body are reunited never to be divided, but what does that mean? If you dig further you will find that our mortal flesh becomes immortal and our blood is replaced with spirit. What then is the final state of a resurrected being? Is he mortal? The answer must be "no". Is he a spirit? The answer must be "yes". He is a glorified spirit being. After all spirit is simply refined matter. Therefore, we do not defer resurrection. We obtain the resurrection, become a glorified spirit being, and after an extended time then repeat the process again.

This is very interesting and I've thought along these lines as well. There are so many machinations that are not yet revealed to us.

As the Lord has stated, "For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea all things both spiritual and temporal - first spiritual secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work - speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have not end neither beginning...Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual..." (D&C 29:31-34). Of this scripture Parley P. Pratt said, "We were firstly, spiritual, then fall under the curse; then take a higher temporal degree, and finally a higher spiritual degree." (General Conference April 6, 1850). So when we enter a new mortal round we are spirits, just as we were when we ended the previous round. We then fall under the curse, and take another mortal body. We grow and progress obtaining a higher temporal degree after which we are resurrected and obtain a higher spiritual degree. This is the process the Lord has chosen for our progression.

This is also symbolized by the Sacrament. The seven day week symbolizes a full, complete number. The eighth day symbolizes renewal or the first day of the following week. Aligning the forbidden fruit to Adam and Eve and the sacred symbolism of consecrating your immortality to mortality for the sake of your own progression and that of your posterity is deepened and broadened tremendously when you align that symbolism to the holy sacrament which we take every week one the first day of the new week. We renew these covenants each week after the prior week is completed, taking ourselves to a higher commitment with each iteration of the sacrament.

I will likely write a follow up article with this symbolism at the center, for all things testify of our God and his plan. In death, we are limited to the glory of the moon and in life we are able to return to the glory of the sun. We partake of the flesh and blood of the Lord - by whose atonement we are able to have our sins excused to allow us to continue to the next capacity as Joseph Smith explained in the King Follet Sermon. That deepens the importance of the role of the Savior rather than cheapen it. Those who have said they believe MMP weakens the role of Jesus Christ are welcome to their view, but that's certainly not my view. That atoning power is the same power by which Adam was allowed to come here and start afresh - on the world he had earned living in an immortal glory he had also earned. He consecrated his eternal rewards that he may elevate both himself and his posterity, but each time this occurs a Savior is needed and provided. Worlds without end.

Moses 1:33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did.
...
Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. ~Joseph Smith

Let me speak of one other concern people have. It is regarding this idea of "never to be divided". Many believe that after the resurrection we will never obtain another resurrection and we will never die again. It is largely based on Alma 11:45. I believe Amulek here was speaking of this mortal body we now have. Not our next mortal body. He says, "Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body... So yes indeed he is correct. This mortal body will never again be divided from our spirit. But that does not mean we will not face a new eternal round.

Are you saying that we incorporate multiple bodies? Building off your earlier comment, are you saying that the resurrection restores your body to your spirit and that in the following round they both are then incorporated into that body? I'm not sure I follow you here 100 %.

Brigham Young explained how multiple resurrections work. He said:

Take, for instance, a grain of sand. You can not divide it so small that it can not be divided again - it is capable of infinite division. We know nothing about how many times it can e divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals, in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless.... Well how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable, and this same infinity is manifest through all the creations of God. We will operate here, in all the ordinances of the house of God which pertain to this side the vail, and those who pass beyond and secure to themselves a resurrection pertaining to the lives will go on and receive more and more, more and more, and will receive one after another until they are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. This idea is very consoling.
(JD 15:138)

So as Brigham explained, the lives in us our countless. We have been added upon again and again until we have reached the state we our currently in. And it is not yet over, we will be added upon again and again, passing through one round and then another and then another. Obtaining resurrection upon resurrection until we finally conquer death such as our Savior did.

This is hard doctrine for some, but if you search your heart you will so it must be so.

That is a fantastic comment from Brigham Young. Those who discard BY's comments as though he didn't understand the gospel are no different than the protestants who are reject certain scriptures that don't fit into their interpretation (such as Baptists who reject the scriptures that faith and works are both necessary.) Those who embrace BY's comments but reject other teachings of the prophets, such as fundamentalists, are also doing the same. Those who reject MMP in this thread have rejected the words of BY and Joseph Smith and Heber C Kimball etc. I embrace their words and the scriptures that seem to indicate one mortality. I even embrace President Uchtdorf's recent message as I believe he is knowingly speaking in the scope of this eternal round. For those things I cannot synthesize, I continue to seek to receive line upon line rather than rejecting one and attaching my pride to the other. I've bolded in red this same sentiment I see in you in your quoted text.

[Alaris]

Moreover, it doesn't matter if I'm contentious or not.

Really... so then the end justify the means in your book?
I am glad I follow the Messiah's book!

Wow - Just wow. Perhaps Silver should say such to his Bishop or Stake President and see what they have to say about whether contention matters.

[janderich]

I'm always open to change and seek to deepen my understanding. But as of right now, I believe in multiple eternal rounds. That means we come to earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, and then after a long time we repeat the process. We come down again to a mortal earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, etc.

Now to your question on spirit bodies and the resurrection... What happens to our bodies at the resurrection? We say our spirit and our body are reunited never to be divided, but what does that mean? If you dig further you will find that our mortal flesh becomes immortal and our blood is replaced with spirit. What then is the final state of a resurrected being? Is he mortal? The answer must be "no". Is he a spirit? The answer must be "yes". He is a glorified spirit being. After all spirit is simply refined matter. Therefore, we do not defer resurrection. We obtain the resurrection, become a glorified spirit being, and after an extended time then repeat the process again.

As the Lord has stated, "For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea all things both spiritual and temporal - first spiritual secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work - speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have not end neither beginning...Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual..." (D&C 29:31-34). Of this scripture Parley P. Pratt said, "We were firstly, spiritual, then fall under the curse; then take a higher temporal degree, and finally a higher spiritual degree." (General Conference April 6, 1850). So when we enter a new mortal round we are spirits, just as we were when we ended the previous round. We then fall under the curse, and take another mortal body. We grow and progress obtaining a higher temporal degree after which we are resurrected and obtain a higher spiritual degree. This is the process the Lord has chosen for our progression.

Let me speak of one other concern people have. It is regarding this idea of "never to be divided". Many believe that after the resurrection we will never obtain another resurrection and we will never die again. It is largely based on Alma 11:45. I believe Amulek here was speaking of this mortal body we now have. Not our next mortal body. He says, "Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body... So yes indeed he is correct. This mortal body will never again be divided from our spirit. But that does not mean we will not face a new eternal round.

Brigham Young explained how multiple resurrections work. He said:

Take, for instance, a grain of sand. You can not divide it so small that it can not be divided again - it is capable of infinite division. We know nothing about how many times it can e divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals, in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless.... Well how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable, and this same infinity is manifest through all the creations of God. We will operate here, in all the ordinances of the house of God which pertain to this side the vail, and those who pass beyond and secure to themselves a resurrection pertaining to the lives will go on and receive more and more, more and more, and will receive one after another until they are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. This idea is very consoling.
(JD 15:138)

So as Brigham explained, the lives in us our countless. We have been added upon again and again until we have reached the state we our currently in. And it is not yet over, we will be added upon again and again, passing through one round and then another and then another. Obtaining resurrection upon resurrection until we finally conquer death such as our Savior did.

This is hard doctrine for some, but if you search your heart you will so it must be so.

It is perfectly acceptable for you to claim to believe these theories of yours as our Article of Faith says, but they are not doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as has been demonstrated time after time in this thread. A quote from Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses is not doctrine. It is not binding upon us, and it may not even be correct. It is also possible that it wasn't recorded properly.

Fair enough, my last statement was very imprecise to the point of confusion. I simply mean to say that this is a difficult teaching but if a person searches their heart they will see that our spiritual growth follows eternal rounds. It is of course not a doctrine of the church.

[Silver]

Moreover, it doesn't matter if I'm contentious or not.

Really... so then the end justify the means in your book?
I am glad I follow the Messiah's book!

I like it when all the apostates attack me.

[Silver]

Moreover, it doesn't matter if I'm contentious or not.

Really... so then the end justify the means in your book?
I am glad I follow the Messiah's book!

Wow - Just wow. Perhaps Silver should say such to his Bishop or Stake President and see what they have to say about whether contention matters.

Look, heretic, I expect you to continue to write your lies here. However, whether I was nice to you or not, you're still spouting heresy. In fact, if I and others had coddled you, your lurkers might have all thought that you were on the right track.

Once more, for clarity, an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ told you that MMP is false. Will you continue to deny the truth of the Plan of Salvation now?

[Silver]

Alaris,
Did you ever address the quotes in Elizabeth's comment? If you did, then I must have missed it. Her comment was a very good response.

I'll take a look and respond as time permits. Busy day! Thanks!

Four posts since this one and still can't respond, eh? Too busy responding to the meany Silver, eh? Elder Uchtdorf says one mortal experience for each of us. Perhaps you'll keep that truth in mind the next time you start writing your deceptive tap-dancing responses here. You're a slick one, alarisherem, but not slick enough.

[abijah]

Maybe that's why he was booted from the First Presidency.







...said in humour, lest someone out there took me literally!

[Alaris]

Maybe that's why he was booted from the First Presidency.







...said in humour, lest someone out there took me literally!

lol I almost made that joke elsewhere, but I wouldn't want to be condemned further than I already have.

[janderich]

Let me speak of one other concern people have. It is regarding this idea of "never to be divided". Many believe that after the resurrection we will never obtain another resurrection and we will never die again. It is largely based on Alma 11:45. I believe Amulek here was speaking of this mortal body we now have. Not our next mortal body. He says, "Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body... So yes indeed he is correct. This mortal body will never again be divided from our spirit. But that does not mean we will not face a new eternal round.

Are you saying that we incorporate multiple bodies? Building off your earlier comment, are you saying that the resurrection restores your body to your spirit and that in the following round they both are then incorporated into that body? I'm not sure I follow you here 100 %.

I think you understand but let me clarify. When we are resurrected our physical body and our spirit body unite. This is often where the thinking ends. But it is clear that our physical body will be refined at the resurrection. It will not be composed of this course fallen matter. This refined matter is what we call spirit, is it not? Thus a resurrected body is simply a glorified spiritual body. If we are righteous each mortal round we obtain a higher glory. This is why after mortality those in paradise long for their bodies. It is not so they can pick something up or touch things. It is so they can obtain the glory they have worked for while on this mortal earth.

Now then, I believe at each resurrection the process repeats. I guess you could say the we incorporate our physical body but somehow the word seems to fall short. I would say we have glory added upon our heads each round until as Joseph said, we can dwell in everlasting burnings. That feels right.

[Charles7]

My thoughts on Eternal Lives

On the matter of multiple probations, it has been my understanding through personal revelation that we live many lives while hopefully progressing toward perfection, but once we receive the endowments of the temple, and honor them, then upon that death it is not necessary to return to this earth. Thus, the atonement takes on meaning and importance. At that time, we are able to enter the kingdom of paradise
However many do return from the paradise state for further progression. There is no end to progression, hence the eternal round.


Actually, there are four possibilities for those who enter the paradise state. The first is to simply remain there, enjoying the peace and beauty thereof. Secondly, they might enter the spirit prison such as a missionary preparing those who are ready to receive the work for the dead done in the physical temples. Third, they can continue progression by acting as guides or angels for the living. Lastly, some return to the earth in physical form to complete a great work or task. These are the great ones who walk among us.
I know this is not scripture and I am not suggesting or teaching it as such. It is, however, personal revelation and I know it to be true

[Kingdom of ZION]

Moreover, it doesn't matter if I'm contentious or not.

Really... so then the end justify the means in your book?
I am glad I follow the Messiah's book!

I like it when all the apostates attack me.

First off your the one doing the name calling here!

Oh please, if your trying to offend me, your going to have to know what your speaking about first... In the basic definition of 'Apostate' (you can look it up in any dictionary or on the web):, "An Apostate is One who has left what they once held to be true or embraced. By that definition, All LDS are Apostates! So big deal! But never mind, I do not want to confuse you with the facts!

SO... I am attacking you by asking you a question? You must be a real hot house flower!

[Spaced_Out]

Brigham Young explained how multiple resurrections work. He said:

Take, for instance, a grain of sand. You can not divide it so small that it can not be divided again - it is capable of infinite division. We know nothing about how many times it can e divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals, in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless.... Well how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable, and this same infinity is manifest through all the creations of God. We will operate here, in all the ordinances of the house of God which pertain to this side the vail, and those who pass beyond and secure to themselves a resurrection pertaining to the lives will go on and receive more and more, more and more, and will receive one after another until they are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. This idea is very consoling.
(JD 15:138)

So as Brigham explained, the lives in us our countless. We have been added upon again and again until we have reached the state we our currently in. And it is not yet over, we will be added upon again and again, passing through one round and then another and then another. Obtaining resurrection upon resurrection until we finally conquer death such as our Savior did.

This is hard doctrine for some, but if you search your heart you will so it must be so.

What a total blasphemous interpretation from BY it is absolutely disgusting. He is talking about our ability to have offspring - we can have infinite number of children. BY asks how many lives in a grain of corn - cant be counted as the seeds can grow and multiply and make more corn continuing through all eternity. BY then says through the ordinances of the temple (temple marriage) in the House of God (which is an ordinance that has to be performed in mortality (ie this side of the vale). Afterwards we pass on through the resurrection - we then go on and receive more and more offspring and have an eternal increase.......

Basically BY is saying after having received the ordinances in the temple and resurrection we go on and have eternal increase. NOT ETERNAL MORTAL PROBATION'S, what absolute rubbish. One passing on one resurrection but eternal increase....

Don't put words into BY mouth and say he was teaching MMP - BY probably gave 1,000 sermons on the resurrection that all contradict what you are teaching then you take one quote very obviously out of context and teach a new doctrine. You guys have no mind to understand no eye to see, no ear to hear just keep reworking things to suit your false mantra. No hones person can read that quote from BY and come up with MMP.............

[Spaced_Out]

I have told you I will be happy to admit I am wrong when a prophet - who has the sole authority to define doctrine - declares it false - or at the judgement bar - whichever happens first. If President Uchtdorf said that and it was an answer to your prayers - great! Pardon my incredulity but every single person who has chimed in on this thread and offered either scriptural or extra-scriptural evidence to refute MMP hasn't come anywhere near compelling. Otherwise, why would you be holding your breath for this answer to your prayers? What have you been praying for? My soul or being proven right?

alaris: again very dishonest. You continually say people must pray and the evil one invites people not to pray. You also continually say only a prophet of God can correct you as you have some higher knowledge or something.. People are very frustrated with your constant blaspheming - and pray that they can put this to an end once and for all. Now an apostle of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in answer to their prays.

WHAT do you do you mock and scorn their prays and make light of it.. Your soul has been proven wrong. An apostle of of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in line with church teachings and scriptures. You are also dishonest as we have shared many scriptures that prove without a doubt that there is no more mortal probation...

Why invite people to pray the scorn and mock and make light of an Apostle of the Lord. What give you the right to preach MMP is LDS doctrine when an Apostle teaches otherwise - do you think your right and authority exceeds that of the Apostle... You have nothing but lies and the cunning of the devil...

[Silver]

My thoughts on Eternal Lives

On the matter of multiple probations, it has been my understanding through personal revelation that we live many lives while hopefully progressing toward perfection, but once we receive the endowments of the temple, and honor them, then upon that death it is not necessary to return to this earth. Thus, the atonement takes on meaning and importance. At that time, we are able to enter the kingdom of paradise
However many do return from the paradise state for further progression. There is no end to progression, hence the eternal round.


Actually, there are four possibilities for those who enter the paradise state. The first is to simply remain there, enjoying the peace and beauty thereof. Secondly, they might enter the spirit prison such as a missionary preparing those who are ready to receive the work for the dead done in the physical temples. Third, they can continue progression by acting as guides or angels for the living. Lastly, some return to the earth in physical form to complete a great work or task. These are the great ones who walk among us.
I know this is not scripture and I am not suggesting or teaching it as such. It is, however, personal revelation and I know it to be true

Welcome to the discussion, Charles7. What's your religion?

[Silver]

Moreover, it doesn't matter if I'm contentious or not.

Really... so then the end justify the means in your book?
I am glad I follow the Messiah's book!

I like it when all the apostates attack me.

First off your the one doing the name calling here!

Oh please, if your trying to offend me, your going to have to know what your speaking about first... In the basic definition of 'Apostate' (you can look it up in any dictionary or on the web):, "An Apostate is One who has left what they once held to be true or embraced. By that definition, All LDS are Apostates! So big deal! But never mind, I do not want to confuse you with the facts!

SO... I am attacking you by asking you a question? You must be a real hot house flower!

There is a true religion on Earth. The Lord has appointed prophets and apostles. They are God's mouthpieces on Earth. If you teach anything contrary to what they teach, you are an apostate. That's not name-calling. It is merely fact.

[Silver]

Let's settle something, shall we?

Which is worse?
1. Being contentious and calling someone names, or...
2. Believing and teaching heresy after one has been made aware of the heretical nature of the belief.

[janderich]

Brigham Young explained how multiple resurrections work. He said:

Take, for instance, a grain of sand. You can not divide it so small that it can not be divided again - it is capable of infinite division. We know nothing about how many times it can e divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals, in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless.... Well how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable, and this same infinity is manifest through all the creations of God. We will operate here, in all the ordinances of the house of God which pertain to this side the vail, and those who pass beyond and secure to themselves a resurrection pertaining to the lives will go on and receive more and more, more and more, and will receive one after another until they are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. This idea is very consoling.
(JD 15:138)

So as Brigham explained, the lives in us our countless. We have been added upon again and again until we have reached the state we our currently in. And it is not yet over, we will be added upon again and again, passing through one round and then another and then another. Obtaining resurrection upon resurrection until we finally conquer death such as our Savior did.

This is hard doctrine for some, but if you search your heart you will so it must be so.

What a total blasphemous interpretation from BY it is absolutely disgusting. He is talking about our ability to have offspring - we can have infinite number of children. BY asks how many lives in a grain of corn - cant be counted as the seeds can grow and multiply and make more corn continuing through all eternity. BY then says through the ordinances of the temple (temple marriage) in the House of God (which is an ordinance that has to be performed in mortality (ie this side of the vale). Afterwards we pass on through the resurrection - we then go on and receive more and more offspring and have an eternal increase.......

Basically BY is saying after having received the ordinances in the temple and resurrection we go on and have eternal increase. NOT ETERNAL MORTAL PROBATION'S, what absolute rubbish. One passing on one resurrection but eternal increase....

Don't put words into BY mouth and say he was teaching MMP - BY probably gave 1,000 sermons on the resurrection that all contradict what you are teaching then you take one quote very obviously out of context and teach a new doctrine. You guys have no mind to understand no eye to see, no ear to hear just keep reworking things to suit your false mantra. No hones person can read that quote from BY and come up with MMP.............

I don't believe he is talking about eternal increase. For brevities sake I didn't provide the complete quote but let me share the middle section. Brigham says:

We know nothing about how many time it can be divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals,
in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless. To illustrate, you take a perfectly ripe kernel of corn - you will have some here perhaps in a few days - adn if you get a glass, it does not require a very powerful one, and you take the chit of this corn and open it, you behold distinctly a stalk of corn, in that chit, a perfectly grown stalk of corn, awith ears annd leaves on it, matured, out in blossom, - there is the tassel, there are the ears and there is the corn! Well, you get a stronger glass and divide agaain, and you can see that this very chit is the grandfather of corn! We take this scientific world this. Well, how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable...

Now then, it is clear here that he is talking about how many times the corn can be divided. He is not talking about how a corn can beget more corn. He has not mentioned that at all here.

I think perhaps it is worth while to provide a few more quotes on MMP. For instance Wilford Woodruff copied down Joseph's words which were spoken at a Lyceum in Nauvoo in 1941 (just before the King Follett sermon). Here is what Wilford Woodruff wrote:

Joseph the Seer taught the following principl that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the HHoly Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory (Book of Revelations, see https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryM ... IE11092999 and https://bycommonconsent.com/2017/10/03/ ... velations/

What makes this quote particularly interesting is the statement, "& so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory". So many who read the King Follett sermon want to say that there is some progression for a perfect being "Jesus" to become a God, but there is no such progression for us. But Joseph's quote here clarifies that we are part of the mix.

I'm out of time. Maybe latter I can provide more quotes from the early leaders on this topic.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Let's settle something, shall we?

Which is worse?
1. Being contentious and calling someone names, or...
2. Believing and teaching heresy after one has been made aware of the heretical nature of the belief.

I am not here trying to teach you a thing!

The problem here is you think your the judge!!! I think you would have loved to live in Spain in 1492!
Or for that matter, at the time of the Messiah in Jerusalem...

[Silver]

Let's settle something, shall we?

Which is worse?
1. Being contentious and calling someone names, or...
2. Believing and teaching heresy after one has been made aware of the heretical nature of the belief.

I am not here trying to teach you a thing!

The problem here is you think your the judge!!! I think you would have loved to live in Spain in 1492!
Or for that matter, at the time of the Messiah in Jerusalem...

Put your hands in the air and move away from the keyboard.

[DesertWonderer2]

Let's settle something, shall we?

Which is worse?
1. Being contentious and calling someone names, or...
2. Believing and teaching heresy after one has been made aware of the heretical nature of the belief.

Jesus both caused contention and called the apostate Jews names...I think you are on solid ground here Silver

[Silver]

Let's settle something, shall we?

Which is worse?
1. Being contentious and calling someone names, or...
2. Believing and teaching heresy after one has been made aware of the heretical nature of the belief.

Jesus both caused contention and called the apostate Jews names...I think you are on solid ground here Silver

I think a good word to describe the words and actions of our Savior was disrupt. He disrupted the falsehood that had settled upon the people of Israel, and in particular, among the Jews. The Sanhedrin was nearing full apostasy. That's the condition of alaris and others who support false ideas like MMP.

Look again at the very first post in this thread by our tender hero, alaris:
"Multiple Mortal Probations Article
Thanks
Postby alaris » 26 Dec 2017, 19:01

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... tions.html

Enjoy! Please feel free to comment with questions and even challenges. I just ask that the tone be respectful so we can keep the spirit of contention out of our discussions. Thank you."

In other words, alaris says: I'm going to write something with which you may not agree, but don't tell me that I'm wrong.

We know alaris is insecure in his beliefs because a few posts later, AI2.0 plainly lays out reasons why MMP is heretical. Well, alaris immediately, and falsely, charges her with contention. He invites "challenges" and then immediately breaks down when challenged.

And that has how this whole thread has gone on for almost 27,000 views and many, many pages until, in a very timely fashion, a literal apostle of God said, There is only one mortal experience.

How does alaris squirm out of his predicament? He calls it "compelling," as if he had a right to call it anything other than the word of God. alaris is bound by the chains of hell so securely that he can deny the words of an apostle. But Silver is the bad guy. Let's pause for a moment of silence, shall we, for the captive alaris.

[Alaris]

I have told you I will be happy to admit I am wrong when a prophet - who has the sole authority to define doctrine - declares it false - or at the judgement bar - whichever happens first. If President Uchtdorf said that and it was an answer to your prayers - great! Pardon my incredulity but every single person who has chimed in on this thread and offered either scriptural or extra-scriptural evidence to refute MMP hasn't come anywhere near compelling. Otherwise, why would you be holding your breath for this answer to your prayers? What have you been praying for? My soul or being proven right?

alaris: again very dishonest. You continually say people must pray and the evil one invites people not to pray. You also continually say only a prophet of God can correct you as you have some higher knowledge or something.. People are very frustrated with your constant blaspheming - and pray that they can put this to an end once and for all. Now an apostle of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in answer to their prays.

WHAT do you do you mock and scorn their prays and make light of it.. Your soul has been proven wrong. An apostle of of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in line with church teachings and scriptures. You are also dishonest as we have shared many scriptures that prove without a doubt that there is no more mortal probation...

Why invite people to pray the scorn and mock and make light of an Apostle of the Lord. What give you the right to preach MMP is LDS doctrine when an Apostle teaches otherwise - do you think your right and authority exceeds that of the Apostle... You have nothing but lies and the cunning of the devil...

I noticed the triple angry faces in your response to Janderich. Did you know that the Lord has taught us the spirit of contention of the devil and it is not His doctrine to stir the hearts up to anger but that such things should be done away? And now you've given more exposition on why prayer is a waste of time as well as More false accusations of dishonesty. These are the fruits of a dark spirit that can only hope to anger people, shame people, and scare people away from prayer.

There is no prophet or apostle who can say anything but that we can get on our knees and pray about it and receive our own confirmation. I realize MMP is a meaty doctrine. However the fruits of those who believe it are in stark contrast to those who vehemently, angrily, and frantically oppose it here.

The feigned shock at how anyone can believe in mmp after Elder Uchtdorfs youth talk is the real dishonesty. The scope and context of mmp is so vast that his comments can at the very least be seen in the scope and scale of one eternal round.

Dissenting opiners (seems nicer than naysayers) in this thread aren't all this way so I'll be focusing on those who understand that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't justify contention and certainly didn't instigate contention when He as our God and Judge pronounced woes on the true heretics. You cannot selectively choose to embrace contention at the expense of His gospel... And that command He gave to avoid it. What a sad place to be.

[Silver]

I have told you I will be happy to admit I am wrong when a prophet - who has the sole authority to define doctrine - declares it false - or at the judgement bar - whichever happens first. If President Uchtdorf said that and it was an answer to your prayers - great! Pardon my incredulity but every single person who has chimed in on this thread and offered either scriptural or extra-scriptural evidence to refute MMP hasn't come anywhere near compelling. Otherwise, why would you be holding your breath for this answer to your prayers? What have you been praying for? My soul or being proven right?

alaris: again very dishonest. You continually say people must pray and the evil one invites people not to pray. You also continually say only a prophet of God can correct you as you have some higher knowledge or something.. People are very frustrated with your constant blaspheming - and pray that they can put this to an end once and for all. Now an apostle of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in answer to their prays.

WHAT do you do you mock and scorn their prays and make light of it.. Your soul has been proven wrong. An apostle of of the Lord says there is only one mortal probation in line with church teachings and scriptures. You are also dishonest as we have shared many scriptures that prove without a doubt that there is no more mortal probation...

Why invite people to pray the scorn and mock and make light of an Apostle of the Lord. What give you the right to preach MMP is LDS doctrine when an Apostle teaches otherwise - do you think your right and authority exceeds that of the Apostle... You have nothing but lies and the cunning of the devil...

I noticed the triple angry faces in your response to Janderich. Did you know that the Lord has taught us the spirit of contention of the devil and it is not His doctrine to stir the hearts up to anger but that such things should be done away? And now you've given more exposition on why prayer is a waste of time as well as More false accusations of dishonesty. These are the fruits of a dark spirit that can only hope to anger people, shame people, and scare people away from prayer.

There is no prophet or apostle who can say anything but that we can get on our knees and pray about it and receive our own confirmation. I realize MMP is a meaty doctrine. However the fruits of those who believe it are in stark contrast to those who vehemently, angrily, and frantically oppose it here.

The feigned shock at how anyone can believe in mmp after Elder Uchtdorfs youth talk is the real dishonesty. The scope and context of mmp is so vast that his comments can at the very least be seen in the scope and scale of one eternal round.

Dissenting opiners (seems nicer than naysayers) in this thread aren't all this way so I'll be focusing on those who understand that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't justify contention and certainly didn't instigate contention when He as our God and Judge pronounced woes on the true heretics. You cannot selectively choose to embrace contention at the expense of His gospel... And that command He gave to avoid it. What a sad place to be.

You're a slick one, alarisherem, but we are wise to your tricks.

I notice, again, that you've proved yourself a liar. You claimed yesterday that you would respond to Elizabeth's post later because you were busy. No response yet, but you've managed to post again your pernicious lies. I guess besides talking with your bishop, you also need to take a course on time management.

[Alaris]

"In 1889, President Wilford Woodruff addressed the topic:

I have heard that in Zion there are some men who entertain the idea that they inherit the body and spirit of Moses, or Abraham, or David, or Noah, or somebody other than themselves. I hope none of you here indulge in anything of this kind, because it is a most foolish, nonsensical and false doctrine. You gaze upon a man who professes to have inherited the body or spirit of Moses, or any of those I have named, and I think you will conclude that his appearance does not indicate that such is the case; at any rate, it certainly has not improved him. Brother Woodruff, Brother Cannon, Brother Smith, Brother Lorenzo Snow, or any of the brethren, will never inherit anyone's body or spirit but their own, in time or in eternity, unless the devil gets into them. It is Satan who inspires men to believe in such absurd things. He delights in having any of the brethren entertain false ideas, no matter what they are. I tell you that whoever sees me in time or eternity will see Wilford Woodruff, not Noah, nor Abraham, nor Enoch. Every man has his own identity, and he never will lose that identity. Therefore, when you hear such doctrine as that advanced, do not believe it. There are a good many things Satan would like us to believe; but we must guard against these. (Deseret New Weekly, 38:822-24, Collected Discourses, 1:262-63, emphasis added.)

This again is a specific type of transmigration and is actually similar to what Joseph Smith condemned (TPJS p. 104) - this time WW adds in inheriting the body and spirit of prophets.

Here is a quote from the same Wilford Woodruff that Janderich shared:

Joseph the Seer taught the following principl that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the HHoly Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory (Book of Revelations, see https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryM ... IE11092999 and https://bycommonconsent.com/2017/10/03/ ... velations/

This is why it is so essential to pray. You should never take a prophet's word alone on any doctrine that brings you to a crossroads. You must study it out and pray and discover for yourself.

“The things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out.”
— Joseph Smith Jr.

President George Q. Cannon, a member of the First Presidency taught:

That a belief in reincarnation should prevail among the Latter-day Saints seems strange for there is nothing in the Gospel, as taught in the Bible, in the Book of Mormon, in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants or in the teachings of inspired men, that furnishes the least foundation for such a conception. It is true that pre-existence is taught; but the pre-existence in which we believe is confined to our first estate. We are taught that our present life is our second estate, and this is a probation given unto us in which to gain experience and to be tried and purified to prepare us for our next estate. The teachings of men who have had a deep understanding concerning the purpose of our Great Creator in placing us here in this condition of existence show that this is the grand opportunity which is given to man—an opportunity which he must not fail to avail himself of as it is the only opportunity that he will have on the earth; his earthly existence is confined to one appearance in the flesh.

When a child comes forth, it possesses a tabernacle. That tabernacle is the house of its spirit, intimately associated with the spirit, separated, it is true, for a time by death, but designed to be re-united in the great hereafter. The Savior says that His disciples looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies to be a bondage…. We are taught that all holy beings looked forward with joyful anticipation to the time when their bodies and spirits will be re-united in the resurrection. They do not look forward to reincarnation or to another birth as a baby but to the union of their spirits and their bodies—the bodies that they possessed and in which they had passed through all the trials and temptations and vicissitudes incident to a mortal career. (Gospel Truth, 1:28)

The scope of this comment could be one eternal round as well. Though certainly possible, I find it hard to believe the Apostles would be unaware of this truth and all the teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, the temple endowment, and the scriptures that support it.

This truth is available to all through study, pondering, and prayer. Though we do not have all the machinations revealed as to how the process of eternal rounds works, we do have enough scriptural and prophetic evidence to conclude that it does. If Elder Cannon is referring to just this eternal round, then certainly this comment does not exclude traversing eternal rounds. The symbolism of partaking of the fruit to lose your immortal state to gain more knowledge would certainly account for this quote.

It is pride and arrogance that resolves we must have all the answers now and be able to synthesize every truth - it is humility and submission to realize we don't have all the answers now but to seek them and be open to being wrong in prior assumptions or conclusions. Again, this is why the spirit of contention is so dangerous - contention fosters more pride and stubbornness making us unteachable. Remember, Joseph Smith said it is better to be believing - that men are condemned for disbelief.

“When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.” ~ Joseph Smith

Life Is Linear

One plain doctrine of the restored gospel is that life is linear. No recycling. We were created spiritually as sons and daughters of Heavenly Parents. We all existed in the premortal realms in a probationary atmosphere for millions, if not billions, of years. There we progressed until the moment came for us to be granted a brief but immensely important time on this earth (a "small moment" D&C 121:7).

Earth life was a continuation of our "probationary state" (Alma 12:24). Here we are to be "proven" (Abr. 3:25). When our time here is completed, death sends our spirits to dwell in the Spirit World until the resurrection. Brigham Young explained: "After the spirit leaves the body, it remains without a tabernacle in the spirit world until the Lord, by his law that he has ordained, brings to pass the resurrection of the dead" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.372). This is the Plan of Salvation.

A person may choose to believe the concept of "Multiple Mortal Probations" (or Buddhist reincarnation), but he or she should understand that it clearly contradicts the restored gospel as taught in the scriptures, by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and every other Church leader.

The doctrine of "Multiple Mortal Probations" presents many problems. The Doctrine and Covenants tells us that "the spirit of man is in the likeness of his person" (D&C 77:2). Consequently, a reincarnated person would be expected to look exactly the same during every mortal lifetime.

In addition, we are told that in the resurrection: "They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body" (D&C 88:28; italics added). Brigham Young gave details:

When the angel who holds the keys of the resurrection shall sound his trumpet, then the peculiar fundamental particles that organized our bodies here, if we do honor to them, though they be deposited in the depths of the sea, and though one particle is in the north, another in the south, another in the east, and another in the west, will be brought together again in the twinkling of an eye, and our spirits will take possession of them. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 372.)

If a spirit had inhabited numerous "natural bodies" during multiple probations on earth, which one of those bodies would he receive in the resurrection?

Alma taught plainly that there are no one returns to earth for a second probation after their initial mortal demise:

Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection - Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow....

[T]here is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works. (Alma 40:11-12,21; italics added.)

Joseph Smith explained: "I want to talk more of the relation of man to God. I will open your eyes in relation to the dead.... for all the spirits who have not obeyed the Gospel in the flesh must either obey it in the spirit or be damned." (History of the Church, 6:312.) If reincarnation or MMP were a true doctrine, unruly spirits could be channeled back to earth for another try. But life is linear. If spirits are disobedient "in the flesh," their only option is to "obey in the spirit or be damned."

Brigham Young also acknowledged that after death, our only chance for "schooling" is "in the spirit":

If a person is baptized for the remission of sins, and dies a short time thereafter, he is not prepared at once to enjoy a fulness of the glory promised to the faithful in the Gospel; for he must be schooled while in the spirit, in the other departments of the house of God, passing on from truth to truth, from intelligence to intelligence, until he is prepared to again receive his body and to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son. (Discourses of Brigham Young, pp. 378-379.)

John Taylor plainly taught that: "there is a place called ‘Paradise,’ to which the spirits of the dead go, awaiting the resurrection, and their reunion with the body" (The Government of God, Ch.5). No Church leader has ever taught that any of the spirits in the Spirit World are awaiting a second (or third, fourth or fifth etc.) opportunity to return to earth.

President Joseph F. Smith summarized the process saying:

It is true, all of us are clothed with mortality, but our spirits existed long before they took upon them this tabernacle that we now inhabit. When this body dies, the spirit does not die. The spirit is an immortal being, and when separated from the body takes its flight to the place prepared for it, and there awaits the resurrection of the body, when the spirit will return again and re-occupy this tabernacle which it occupied in this world. (Gospel Doctrine, p. 444; see also D&C 138)."

This appears to be a quote from someone's website analyzing James Harmstrom of a different church. If you cited that, I must have missed it. None of these scriptures or quotes from prophets exclude MMP. In fact, I bolded Brigham Young's quote above that the author assumed excludes the possiblity of MMP but actually reinforces it as BY's quote, unsurprisingly, fits right within the King Follet Sermon. To me, his comment is referencing Joseph Smith's teaching that we must proceed from grace to grace and from exaltation to exaltation until we attain to the resurrection of the dead and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. We have to continue to receive light and glory until we can physically exist in that level of glory that Joseph Smith calls "everlasting burnings." If you believe this process can happen to a child who dies without experiencing mortality, well I totally understand why you believe that and I respect it. However, I know what I know and I don't know what I don't know. I have studied this topic out for years, and the Lord has seen fit in His infinite mercy to make this truth known to me. He has permitted me to share my thoughts online. I have no problem saying "I don't know" and why quotes from George Q Cannon and lines taken out of a youth talk by Elder Uchtdorf don't shake me in the slightest--actually I can't say all the reasons why. 0:)

I think a good analogy here is faith and works. Many, if not most, baptists believe that works are unnecessary to salvation, and that works are only a fruit of those who are saved the moment they confess Christ. They take all the scriptures in the Bible that reference grace that seem to exclude works and ignore all the references to works. That is what is happening here in this thread. There are a lot of quotes and scriptures that seem to exclude MMP - except they don't! There are a lot of quotes and scriptures that reference MMP and eternal lives. I don't know all the machinations ... yet ... but I do know MMP is true.