Multiple Mortal Probations Article

[Spaced_Out]

I shared with Sarah my personal feelings and beliefs. The only disgusting aspects in this thread is the behavior of those who cannot abide my beliefs or the sharing of them without stooping to this base behavior. This opposition only reinforces my beliefs. We allow all men that same privelege. Let them worship how, where, or what they may.

The spirit of contention is not of God but of the devil.

Please keep name calling, condemning, twisting, etc There are only so many hours in the day and better me than someone else.

D&C 138 says the noble and great ones received their first lessons as spirits in the spirit world. That sure seems to contradict mmp doesn't it? Except we all start the same way.

I think I've seen enough of this interesting execution to Alma 12. I'll be happy to continue to engage anyone and everyone who wants to discuss or debate with civility.

Those who think the MMP belief is clearly heresy I respect your right to believe that way.

No honest person can believe in MMP. the doctrine is contrary to all teachings of the LDS church and scripture. Only a person living in total denial can teach such heresy. You have a total disregard for scripture unable to see what is plainly before you - it is not possible to have any reasonable discussion on the topic as the scriptures and teaching are very plain and simple on this key aspect of the plan of salvation.
Only a person in denial can even imagine all the scriptures are wrong and they are right...

[Kingdom of ZION]

You're claiming that someone who is dead can be raised into a translated being. You're claiming that those dammed FOREVER, and I assume you really mean forever, are those whose only sin was to have parents conceive them in fornication.

How can you say you believe in Joseph Smith but not believe that the Book of Mormon is not what he claimed - the word of God? Now the Torah is the only book from God?

You're claiming that someone who is dead can be raised into a translated being.
Do you not believe that people who are born in the Morning of the First Resurrection, come forth as Translated Beings in the Millennium? I do, and I believe for some it is raised from the grave, and the vast majority will be born again in that kingdom, as the Messiah told Nicodemus. The Two Witnesses that die in the streets of Jerusalem, and they there for 3 and 1/3 days, and then come alive and ascend up into the clouds before the world, will be just that: Dead and raised as a Translated Being (even though they were Translated for the Three and 1/2 years before their deaths. It is the same for Telestial Beings in the Second Resurrection of the damned, they come forth with defiled immortal bodies and obtain eternal life in that kingdom they are worthy of.

You're claiming that those dammed FOREVER, and I assume you really mean forever,
There is no kingdom progression, so as once united with an immortal body, and the second twinkling happens (resurrection) they are never to be separated.

are those whose only sin was to have parents conceive them in fornication.
Spirits are always matched to the glory of the body they are born is. Those born in the Second Resurrection are those who rejected the Messiah in life, were murders and adulterers and such, who were judge by the Messiah and His Twelve on Judgment Day that they must remain in the grave (spirit prison) until the end of the Millennial realm.

How can you say you believe in Joseph Smith but not believe that the Book of Mormon is not what he claimed - the word of God?
I never said the Book of Mormon was not the word of Yah. I said,
“I believe the Torah was the only scripture that was ever dictated by Yah, LETTER by LETTER. I also study the Law and the Prophets (Old Testament), whether they are canonized or not by this or that church (Apocrypha, the Book of Jasher, and other ancient texts, pre Messiah). Even the writings of Native American's hold a few things that I have found to be from Yah, but then is that not what the BoM is? Book of Mormon, Iroquois Confederacy and Constitution, and the writings of the Hopis)”

Now the Torah is the only book from God?
Hardly, but it is the only book dictated Letter by Letter! This is not true for any other revelations or commandments or records given. The only thing personally from Yah was the “Ten Marks on two tablets” written by the finger of Yah Himself! They are commonly called the Ten Commandments, and were kept in the Arc of the Covenant unto this day.

Shalom

[Elguapo4538]

Let me give you my 2 cents. I don't wish to be contentious, just to share my experience. If you disagree, I totally understand but let us be respectful. Some are treated on this forum like they are the enemy. Lets remember who our Head is and act like his followers.

During my mission, I read the King Follett Sermon for the first time. I remember being confused with this part:

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.

I didn't understand why the Father had to lay down his life, just like Jesus did. I understood that only 1 person per creative process had to atone for the other children's sins. So the odds that Christ had a Father that also was a Christ are unbelievable. I have since understood how this is possible.

Another quote from Joseph Smith:

“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith

The doctrine of eternal lives has opened my eyes to how these quotes can be possible.

This is just my experience

[Sarah]

You're claiming that someone who is dead can be raised into a translated being. You're claiming that those dammed FOREVER, and I assume you really mean forever, are those whose only sin was to have parents conceive them in fornication.

How can you say you believe in Joseph Smith but not believe that the Book of Mormon is not what he claimed - the word of God? Now the Torah is the only book from God?

You're claiming that someone who is dead can be raised into a translated being.
Do you not believe that people who are born in the Morning of the First Resurrection, come forth as Translated Beings in the Millennium? I do, and I believe for some it is raised from the grave, and the vast majority will be born again in that kingdom, as the Messiah told Nicodemus. The Two Witnesses that die in the streets of Jerusalem, and they there for 3 and 1/3 days, and then come alive and ascend up into the clouds before the world, will be just that: Dead and raised as a Translated Being (even though they were Translated for the Three and 1/2 years before their deaths. It is the same for Telestial Beings in the Second Resurrection of the damned, they come forth with defiled immortal bodies and obtain eternal life in that kingdom they are worthy of.

You're claiming that those dammed FOREVER, and I assume you really mean forever,
There is no kingdom progression, so as once united with an immortal body, and the second twinkling happens (resurrection) they are never to be separated.

are those whose only sin was to have parents conceive them in fornication.
Spirits are always matched to the glory of the body they are born is. Those born in the Second Resurrection are those who rejected the Messiah in life, were murders and adulterers and such, who were judge by the Messiah and His Twelve on Judgment Day that they must remain in the grave (spirit prison) until the end of the Millennial realm.

How can you say you believe in Joseph Smith but not believe that the Book of Mormon is not what he claimed - the word of God?
I never said the Book of Mormon was not the word of Yah. I said,
“I believe the Torah was the only scripture that was ever dictated by Yah, LETTER by LETTER. I also study the Law and the Prophets (Old Testament), whether they are canonized or not by this or that church (Apocrypha, the Book of Jasher, and other ancient texts, pre Messiah). Even the writings of Native American's hold a few things that I have found to be from Yah, but then is that not what the BoM is? Book of Mormon, Iroquois Confederacy and Constitution, and the writings of the Hopis)”

Now the Torah is the only book from God?
Hardly, but it is the only book dictated Letter by Letter! This is not true for any other revelations or commandments or records given. The only thing personally from Yah was the “Ten Marks on two tablets” written by the finger of Yah Himself! They are commonly called the Ten Commandments, and were kept in the Arc of the Covenant unto this day.

Shalom

I appreciate you clarifying what you said. It sounds like you are equating translation with resurrection, and that is not the standard LDS belief. Translated beings are “persons who are changed so that they do not experience pain or death until their resurrection to immortality”

Also taken from lds.org....

Translated Beings

Persons who are changed so that they do not experience pain or death until their resurrection to immortality.

Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him, Gen. 5:24 (Heb. 11:5; D&C 107:48–49).

No man knoweth of Moses’ sepulchre unto this day, Deut. 34:5–6 (Alma 45:19).

Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven, 2 Kgs. 2:11.

If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee, John 21:22–23 (D&C 7:1–3).

You shall never taste of death, 3 Ne. 28:7.

That they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, 3 Ne. 28:38 (4 Ne. 1:14; Morm. 8:10–11).

John the Beloved will live until the Lord comes, D&C 7.

I have taken the Zion of Enoch into mine own bosom, D&C 38:4 (Moses 7:21, 31, 69).

Enoch and his brethren are a city reserved until a day of righteousness, D&C 45:11–12.

Elijah was taken to heaven without tasting death, D&C 110:13.

The Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up into Zion, Moses 7:27.

It sounds like you believe that all spirits in the spirit world will come forth from the grave with translated (but not final) bodies, in order that they might be further tested during the millennium.

BTW, did you happen to see what I posted back in April about the Mosiah Hancock vision? I'll bump it up for you see.

[janderich]

We were reading these verses in Sunday School yesterday and it made me think of this thread.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

We see here that even the noble and great ones were spirits. It seems the only way this theory would work is if you believe that when your mortal life is over you can defer resurrection and remain a spirit. So lets say I live into the millennium, live to the age of a tree, and then am changed, does that mean (according the the mmp theory) that I could choose to be transformed into a spirit body again and not my resurrected body? What would I be doing as a spirit for 1 thousand years? Who is creating brand-new spirit bodies that will enter the 1st estate for the next round, and who is occupying the celestial world after the millennium?

I'm always open to change and seek to deepen my understanding. But as of right now, I believe in multiple eternal rounds. That means we come to earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, and then after a long time we repeat the process. We come down again to a mortal earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, etc.

Now to your question on spirit bodies and the resurrection... What happens to our bodies at the resurrection? We say our spirit and our body are reunited never to be divided, but what does that mean? If you dig further you will find that our mortal flesh becomes immortal and our blood is replaced with spirit. What then is the final state of a resurrected being? Is he mortal? The answer must be "no". Is he a spirit? The answer must be "yes". He is a glorified spirit being. After all spirit is simply refined matter. Therefore, we do not defer resurrection. We obtain the resurrection, become a glorified spirit being, and after an extended time then repeat the process again.

As the Lord has stated, "For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea all things both spiritual and temporal - first spiritual secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work - speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have not end neither beginning...Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual..." (D&C 29:31-34). Of this scripture Parley P. Pratt said, "We were firstly, spiritual, then fall under the curse; then take a higher temporal degree, and finally a higher spiritual degree." (General Conference April 6, 1850). So when we enter a new mortal round we are spirits, just as we were when we ended the previous round. We then fall under the curse, and take another mortal body. We grow and progress obtaining a higher temporal degree after which we are resurrected and obtain a higher spiritual degree. This is the process the Lord has chosen for our progression.

Let me speak of one other concern people have. It is regarding this idea of "never to be divided". Many believe that after the resurrection we will never obtain another resurrection and we will never die again. It is largely based on Alma 11:45. I believe Amulek here was speaking of this mortal body we now have. Not our next mortal body. He says, "Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body... So yes indeed he is correct. This mortal body will never again be divided from our spirit. But that does not mean we will not face a new eternal round.

Brigham Young explained how multiple resurrections work. He said:

Take, for instance, a grain of sand. You can not divide it so small that it can not be divided again - it is capable of infinite division. We know nothing about how many times it can e divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals, in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless.... Well how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable, and this same infinity is manifest through all the creations of God. We will operate here, in all the ordinances of the house of God which pertain to this side the vail, and those who pass beyond and secure to themselves a resurrection pertaining to the lives will go on and receive more and more, more and more, and will receive one after another until they are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. This idea is very consoling.
(JD 15:138)

So as Brigham explained, the lives in us our countless. We have been added upon again and again until we have reached the state we our currently in. And it is not yet over, we will be added upon again and again, passing through one round and then another and then another. Obtaining resurrection upon resurrection until we finally conquer death such as our Savior did.

This is hard doctrine for some, but if you search your heart you will so it must be so.

[Silver]

We were reading these verses in Sunday School yesterday and it made me think of this thread.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

We see here that even the noble and great ones were spirits. It seems the only way this theory would work is if you believe that when your mortal life is over you can defer resurrection and remain a spirit. So lets say I live into the millennium, live to the age of a tree, and then am changed, does that mean (according the the mmp theory) that I could choose to be transformed into a spirit body again and not my resurrected body? What would I be doing as a spirit for 1 thousand years? Who is creating brand-new spirit bodies that will enter the 1st estate for the next round, and who is occupying the celestial world after the millennium?

I'm always open to change and seek to deepen my understanding. But as of right now, I believe in multiple eternal rounds. That means we come to earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, and then after a long time we repeat the process. We come down again to a mortal earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, etc.

Now to your question on spirit bodies and the resurrection... What happens to our bodies at the resurrection? We say our spirit and our body are reunited never to be divided, but what does that mean? If you dig further you will find that our mortal flesh becomes immortal and our blood is replaced with spirit. What then is the final state of a resurrected being? Is he mortal? The answer must be "no". Is he a spirit? The answer must be "yes". He is a glorified spirit being. After all spirit is simply refined matter. Therefore, we do not defer resurrection. We obtain the resurrection, become a glorified spirit being, and after an extended time then repeat the process again.

As the Lord has stated, "For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea all things both spiritual and temporal - first spiritual secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work - speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have not end neither beginning...Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual..." (D&C 29:31-34). Of this scripture Parley P. Pratt said, "We were firstly, spiritual, then fall under the curse; then take a higher temporal degree, and finally a higher spiritual degree." (General Conference April 6, 1850). So when we enter a new mortal round we are spirits, just as we were when we ended the previous round. We then fall under the curse, and take another mortal body. We grow and progress obtaining a higher temporal degree after which we are resurrected and obtain a higher spiritual degree. This is the process the Lord has chosen for our progression.

Let me speak of one other concern people have. It is regarding this idea of "never to be divided". Many believe that after the resurrection we will never obtain another resurrection and we will never die again. It is largely based on Alma 11:45. I believe Amulek here was speaking of this mortal body we now have. Not our next mortal body. He says, "Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body... So yes indeed he is correct. This mortal body will never again be divided from our spirit. But that does not mean we will not face a new eternal round.

Brigham Young explained how multiple resurrections work. He said:

Take, for instance, a grain of sand. You can not divide it so small that it can not be divided again - it is capable of infinite division. We know nothing about how many times it can e divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals, in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless.... Well how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable, and this same infinity is manifest through all the creations of God. We will operate here, in all the ordinances of the house of God which pertain to this side the vail, and those who pass beyond and secure to themselves a resurrection pertaining to the lives will go on and receive more and more, more and more, and will receive one after another until they are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. This idea is very consoling.
(JD 15:138)

So as Brigham explained, the lives in us our countless. We have been added upon again and again until we have reached the state we our currently in. And it is not yet over, we will be added upon again and again, passing through one round and then another and then another. Obtaining resurrection upon resurrection until we finally conquer death such as our Savior did.

This is hard doctrine for some, but if you search your heart you will so it must be so.

It is perfectly acceptable for you to claim to believe these theories of yours as our Article of Faith says, but they are not doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as has been demonstrated time after time in this thread. A quote from Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses is not doctrine. It is not binding upon us, and it may not even be correct. It is also possible that it wasn't recorded properly.

[Kingdom of ZION]

You're claiming that someone who is dead can be raised into a translated being. You're claiming that those dammed FOREVER, and I assume you really mean forever, are those whose only sin was to have parents conceive them in fornication.

How can you say you believe in Joseph Smith but not believe that the Book of Mormon is not what he claimed - the word of God? Now the Torah is the only book from God?

You're claiming that someone who is dead can be raised into a translated being.
Do you not believe that people who are born in the Morning of the First Resurrection, come forth as Translated Beings in the Millennium? I do, and I believe for some it is raised from the grave, and the vast majority will be born again in that kingdom, as the Messiah told Nicodemus. The Two Witnesses that die in the streets of Jerusalem, and they there for 3 and 1/3 days, and then come alive and ascend up into the clouds before the world, will be just that: Dead and raised as a Translated Being (even though they were Translated for the Three and 1/2 years before their deaths. It is the same for Telestial Beings in the Second Resurrection of the damned, they come forth with defiled immortal bodies and obtain eternal life in that kingdom they are worthy of.

You're claiming that those dammed FOREVER, and I assume you really mean forever,
There is no kingdom progression, so as once united with an immortal body, and the second twinkling happens (resurrection) they are never to be separated.

are those whose only sin was to have parents conceive them in fornication.
Spirits are always matched to the glory of the body they are born is. Those born in the Second Resurrection are those who rejected the Messiah in life, were murders and adulterers and such, who were judge by the Messiah and His Twelve on Judgment Day that they must remain in the grave (spirit prison) until the end of the Millennial realm.

How can you say you believe in Joseph Smith but not believe that the Book of Mormon is not what he claimed - the word of God?
I never said the Book of Mormon was not the word of Yah. I said,
“I believe the Torah was the only scripture that was ever dictated by Yah, LETTER by LETTER. I also study the Law and the Prophets (Old Testament), whether they are canonized or not by this or that church (Apocrypha, the Book of Jasher, and other ancient texts, pre Messiah). Even the writings of Native American's hold a few things that I have found to be from Yah, but then is that not what the BoM is? Book of Mormon, Iroquois Confederacy and Constitution, and the writings of the Hopis)”

Now the Torah is the only book from God?
Hardly, but it is the only book dictated Letter by Letter! This is not true for any other revelations or commandments or records given. The only thing personally from Yah was the “Ten Marks on two tablets” written by the finger of Yah Himself! They are commonly called the Ten Commandments, and were kept in the Arc of the Covenant unto this day.

Shalom

I appreciate you clarifying what you said. It sounds like you are equating translation with resurrection, and that is not the standard LDS belief. Translated beings are “persons who are changed so that they do not experience pain or death until their resurrection to immortality”

Also taken from lds.org....

Translated Beings

Persons who are changed so that they do not experience pain or death until their resurrection to immortality.

Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him, Gen. 5:24 (Heb. 11:5; D&C 107:48–49).

No man knoweth of Moses’ sepulchre unto this day, Deut. 34:5–6 (Alma 45:19).

Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven, 2 Kgs. 2:11.

If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee, John 21:22–23 (D&C 7:1–3).

You shall never taste of death, 3 Ne. 28:7.

That they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, 3 Ne. 28:38 (4 Ne. 1:14; Morm. 8:10–11).

John the Beloved will live until the Lord comes, D&C 7.

I have taken the Zion of Enoch into mine own bosom, D&C 38:4 (Moses 7:21, 31, 69).

Enoch and his brethren are a city reserved until a day of righteousness, D&C 45:11–12.

Elijah was taken to heaven without tasting death, D&C 110:13.

The Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up into Zion, Moses 7:27.

It sounds like you believe that all spirits in the spirit world will come forth from the grave with translated (but not final) bodies, in order that they might be further tested during the millennium.

BTW, did you happen to see what I posted back in April about the Mosiah Hancock vision? I'll bump it up for you see.

Thanks, I will look at what you posted.

When a person comes into the Millennium, they say they obtain Eternal Life (Immortality). Correct, Translated Bodies have blood and must eventually die, though they do not lay them down usually, that only happens when one dies in a Telestial Realm (like the Messiah and the Two Witnesses). In the millennium they are changed by what has been called the Second Twinkling. Their death is sweet, they do not lay the body down and that is what you can call Resurrection, as spirit and body are then separately connected. Sorry I did not point this out more clearly for you. I see it as all one thing when they have already been judged on Judgment Day, and they are receiving the body that they are to receive is revealed, such as the Second Resurrection.

Body do not pop out of the ground from the dust. The glory of the body is reflexive of the one who sires it. If Father sires a Body, it will look exactly the same as His body (if a Male). When Terrestrial or Telestial Beings sire a body, their is a great variation especially for the latter.

[Alaris]

We were reading these verses in Sunday School yesterday and it made me think of this thread.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

We see here that even the noble and great ones were spirits. It seems the only way this theory would work is if you believe that when your mortal life is over you can defer resurrection and remain a spirit. So lets say I live into the millennium, live to the age of a tree, and then am changed, does that mean (according the the mmp theory) that I could choose to be transformed into a spirit body again and not my resurrected body? What would I be doing as a spirit for 1 thousand years? Who is creating brand-new spirit bodies that will enter the 1st estate for the next round, and who is occupying the celestial world after the millennium?

I'm always open to change and seek to deepen my understanding. But as of right now, I believe in multiple eternal rounds. That means we come to earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, and then after a long time we repeat the process. We come down again to a mortal earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, etc.

Now to your question on spirit bodies and the resurrection... What happens to our bodies at the resurrection? We say our spirit and our body are reunited never to be divided, but what does that mean? If you dig further you will find that our mortal flesh becomes immortal and our blood is replaced with spirit. What then is the final state of a resurrected being? Is he mortal? The answer must be "no". Is he a spirit? The answer must be "yes". He is a glorified spirit being. After all spirit is simply refined matter. Therefore, we do not defer resurrection. We obtain the resurrection, become a glorified spirit being, and after an extended time then repeat the process again.

As the Lord has stated, "For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea all things both spiritual and temporal - first spiritual secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work - speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have not end neither beginning...Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual..." (D&C 29:31-34). Of this scripture Parley P. Pratt said, "We were firstly, spiritual, then fall under the curse; then take a higher temporal degree, and finally a higher spiritual degree." (General Conference April 6, 1850). So when we enter a new mortal round we are spirits, just as we were when we ended the previous round. We then fall under the curse, and take another mortal body. We grow and progress obtaining a higher temporal degree after which we are resurrected and obtain a higher spiritual degree. This is the process the Lord has chosen for our progression.

Let me speak of one other concern people have. It is regarding this idea of "never to be divided". Many believe that after the resurrection we will never obtain another resurrection and we will never die again. It is largely based on Alma 11:45. I believe Amulek here was speaking of this mortal body we now have. Not our next mortal body. He says, "Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body... So yes indeed he is correct. This mortal body will never again be divided from our spirit. But that does not mean we will not face a new eternal round.

Brigham Young explained how multiple resurrections work. He said:

Take, for instance, a grain of sand. You can not divide it so small that it can not be divided again - it is capable of infinite division. We know nothing about how many times it can e divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals, in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless.... Well how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable, and this same infinity is manifest through all the creations of God. We will operate here, in all the ordinances of the house of God which pertain to this side the vail, and those who pass beyond and secure to themselves a resurrection pertaining to the lives will go on and receive more and more, more and more, and will receive one after another until they are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. This idea is very consoling.
(JD 15:138)

So as Brigham explained, the lives in us our countless. We have been added upon again and again until we have reached the state we our currently in. And it is not yet over, we will be added upon again and again, passing through one round and then another and then another. Obtaining resurrection upon resurrection until we finally conquer death such as our Savior did.

This is hard doctrine for some, but if you search your heart you will so it must be so.

It is perfectly acceptable for you to claim to believe these theories of yours as our Article of Faith says, but they are not doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as has been demonstrated time after time in this thread. A quote from Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses is not doctrine. It is not binding upon us, and it may not even be correct. It is also possible that it wasn't recorded properly.

This is a great response Silver. I have that disclaimer at the head of every article I write - not official doctrine - though here's what I believe and why I believe. I appreciate the challenges, I do, as they are a refiner's fire of sorts. I'm not starting a church. I'm not looking to justify sin, and I certainly have not lied. I was just sealed to my wife and my children on September 16th. The more my understanding deepens, the more I long for more light and knowledge. I stand taller, study more, and invite more to Christ.

Janderich's post is fantastic as well. There is a lot of evidence of MMP. There are scriptures and statements that seem rule out MMP as well. I understand that. I acknowledge your right to believe MMP is ruled out for the reasons you do. How about we continue forward with that mutual respect. I will tell you what I believe and why and you can do the same and we can drop the "liar" nonsense.

[Silver]

We were reading these verses in Sunday School yesterday and it made me think of this thread.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

We see here that even the noble and great ones were spirits. It seems the only way this theory would work is if you believe that when your mortal life is over you can defer resurrection and remain a spirit. So lets say I live into the millennium, live to the age of a tree, and then am changed, does that mean (according the the mmp theory) that I could choose to be transformed into a spirit body again and not my resurrected body? What would I be doing as a spirit for 1 thousand years? Who is creating brand-new spirit bodies that will enter the 1st estate for the next round, and who is occupying the celestial world after the millennium?

I'm always open to change and seek to deepen my understanding. But as of right now, I believe in multiple eternal rounds. That means we come to earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, and then after a long time we repeat the process. We come down again to a mortal earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, etc.

Now to your question on spirit bodies and the resurrection... What happens to our bodies at the resurrection? We say our spirit and our body are reunited never to be divided, but what does that mean? If you dig further you will find that our mortal flesh becomes immortal and our blood is replaced with spirit. What then is the final state of a resurrected being? Is he mortal? The answer must be "no". Is he a spirit? The answer must be "yes". He is a glorified spirit being. After all spirit is simply refined matter. Therefore, we do not defer resurrection. We obtain the resurrection, become a glorified spirit being, and after an extended time then repeat the process again.

As the Lord has stated, "For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea all things both spiritual and temporal - first spiritual secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work - speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have not end neither beginning...Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual..." (D&C 29:31-34). Of this scripture Parley P. Pratt said, "We were firstly, spiritual, then fall under the curse; then take a higher temporal degree, and finally a higher spiritual degree." (General Conference April 6, 1850). So when we enter a new mortal round we are spirits, just as we were when we ended the previous round. We then fall under the curse, and take another mortal body. We grow and progress obtaining a higher temporal degree after which we are resurrected and obtain a higher spiritual degree. This is the process the Lord has chosen for our progression.

Let me speak of one other concern people have. It is regarding this idea of "never to be divided". Many believe that after the resurrection we will never obtain another resurrection and we will never die again. It is largely based on Alma 11:45. I believe Amulek here was speaking of this mortal body we now have. Not our next mortal body. He says, "Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body... So yes indeed he is correct. This mortal body will never again be divided from our spirit. But that does not mean we will not face a new eternal round.

Brigham Young explained how multiple resurrections work. He said:

Take, for instance, a grain of sand. You can not divide it so small that it can not be divided again - it is capable of infinite division. We know nothing about how many times it can e divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals, in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless.... Well how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable, and this same infinity is manifest through all the creations of God. We will operate here, in all the ordinances of the house of God which pertain to this side the vail, and those who pass beyond and secure to themselves a resurrection pertaining to the lives will go on and receive more and more, more and more, and will receive one after another until they are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. This idea is very consoling.
(JD 15:138)

So as Brigham explained, the lives in us our countless. We have been added upon again and again until we have reached the state we our currently in. And it is not yet over, we will be added upon again and again, passing through one round and then another and then another. Obtaining resurrection upon resurrection until we finally conquer death such as our Savior did.

This is hard doctrine for some, but if you search your heart you will so it must be so.

It is perfectly acceptable for you to claim to believe these theories of yours as our Article of Faith says, but they are not doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as has been demonstrated time after time in this thread. A quote from Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses is not doctrine. It is not binding upon us, and it may not even be correct. It is also possible that it wasn't recorded properly.

This is a great response Silver. I have that disclaimer at the head of every article I write - not official doctrine - though here's what I believe and why I believe. I appreciate the challenges, I do, as they are a refiner's fire of sorts. I'm not starting a church. I'm not looking to justify sin, and I certainly have not lied. I was just sealed to my wife and my six children on September 16th. The more my understanding deepens, the more I long for more light and knowledge. I stand taller, study more, and invite more to Christ.

Janderich's post is fantastic as well. There is a lot of evidence of MMP. There are scriptures and statements that seem rule out MMP as well. I understand that. I acknowledge your right to believe MMP is ruled out for the reasons you do. How about we continue forward with that mutual respect. I will tell you what I believe and why and you can do the same and we can drop the "liar" nonsense.

No, you are a liar, alarisherem. You can insist on civility, but what you are claiming is wrong. It is false. It is a lie. You received your "revelation" from the wrong source. It's up to you to abandon it. I note that you've left the article up on your blog. You will be held accountable for spreading lies there and here.

Elder Uchtdorf told you that your pet heresy is wrong. Will you persist in promoting it? An apostle versus you...which should I believe?

[Alaris]

I'm always open to change and seek to deepen my understanding. But as of right now, I believe in multiple eternal rounds. That means we come to earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, and then after a long time we repeat the process. We come down again to a mortal earth, we die, we enter a kingdom, etc.

Now to your question on spirit bodies and the resurrection... What happens to our bodies at the resurrection? We say our spirit and our body are reunited never to be divided, but what does that mean? If you dig further you will find that our mortal flesh becomes immortal and our blood is replaced with spirit. What then is the final state of a resurrected being? Is he mortal? The answer must be "no". Is he a spirit? The answer must be "yes". He is a glorified spirit being. After all spirit is simply refined matter. Therefore, we do not defer resurrection. We obtain the resurrection, become a glorified spirit being, and after an extended time then repeat the process again.

As the Lord has stated, "For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea all things both spiritual and temporal - first spiritual secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work - speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have not end neither beginning...Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual..." (D&C 29:31-34). Of this scripture Parley P. Pratt said, "We were firstly, spiritual, then fall under the curse; then take a higher temporal degree, and finally a higher spiritual degree." (General Conference April 6, 1850). So when we enter a new mortal round we are spirits, just as we were when we ended the previous round. We then fall under the curse, and take another mortal body. We grow and progress obtaining a higher temporal degree after which we are resurrected and obtain a higher spiritual degree. This is the process the Lord has chosen for our progression.

Let me speak of one other concern people have. It is regarding this idea of "never to be divided". Many believe that after the resurrection we will never obtain another resurrection and we will never die again. It is largely based on Alma 11:45. I believe Amulek here was speaking of this mortal body we now have. Not our next mortal body. He says, "Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body... So yes indeed he is correct. This mortal body will never again be divided from our spirit. But that does not mean we will not face a new eternal round.

Brigham Young explained how multiple resurrections work. He said: So as Brigham explained, the lives in us our countless. We have been added upon again and again until we have reached the state we our currently in. And it is not yet over, we will be added upon again and again, passing through one round and then another and then another. Obtaining resurrection upon resurrection until we finally conquer death such as our Savior did.

This is hard doctrine for some, but if you search your heart you will so it must be so.

It is perfectly acceptable for you to claim to believe these theories of yours as our Article of Faith says, but they are not doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as has been demonstrated time after time in this thread. A quote from Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses is not doctrine. It is not binding upon us, and it may not even be correct. It is also possible that it wasn't recorded properly.

This is a great response Silver. I have that disclaimer at the head of every article I write - not official doctrine - though here's what I believe and why I believe. I appreciate the challenges, I do, as they are a refiner's fire of sorts. I'm not starting a church. I'm not looking to justify sin, and I certainly have not lied. I was just sealed to my wife and my six children on September 16th. The more my understanding deepens, the more I long for more light and knowledge. I stand taller, study more, and invite more to Christ.

Janderich's post is fantastic as well. There is a lot of evidence of MMP. There are scriptures and statements that seem rule out MMP as well. I understand that. I acknowledge your right to believe MMP is ruled out for the reasons you do. How about we continue forward with that mutual respect. I will tell you what I believe and why and you can do the same and we can drop the "liar" nonsense.

No, you are a liar, alarisherem. You can insist on civility, but what you are claiming is wrong. It is false. It is a lie. You received your "revelation" from the wrong source. It's up to you to abandon it. I note that you've left the article up on your blog. You will be held accountable for spreading lies there and here.

Elder Uchtdorf told you that your pet heresy is wrong. Will you persist in promoting it? An apostle versus you...which should I believe?

I have invited you again and again to abandon this base, contentious, and extremely immature behavior. Whether I err in doctrine the Lord knows I am honest and earnest in seeking Him, His knowledge, and His will in what I can and will continue to share. I am certainly not being led by an evil spirit as all the fruits of this experience have been wonderful. A bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water.

Moroni 7:11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

Your base behavior of false accusations, condemnation, disrespect, and incivility are all contrary to the basic teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yours is the bitter fountain and I've seen you splash that filthy water all over the place in these forums - all over anyone who dares support Trump. You may want to reread this chapter in light of the choices you've made here in these forums. You attend church on Sundays and then spend time online bitterly reviling those who see things differently than you. I hope you will reconsider this path.

3 Nephi 12:3 Yea, blessed are the poor in spirit who come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 And again, blessed are all they that mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 And blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 And blessed are all they who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled with the Holy Ghost.

7 And blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

8 And blessed are all the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 And blessed are all the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.

10 And blessed are all they who are persecuted for my name’s sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 And blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake;

12 For ye shall have great joy and be exceedingly glad, for great shall be your reward in heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets who were before you.

13 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you to be the salt of the earth; but if the salt shall lose its savor wherewith shall the earth be salted? The salt shall be thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot of men.

14 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you to be the light of this people. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.

15 Behold, do men light a candle and put it under a bushel? Nay, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light to all that are in the house;

16 Therefore let your light so shine before this people, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfil;

18 For verily I say unto you, one jot nor one tittle hath not passed away from the law, but in me it hath all been fulfilled.

19 And behold, I have given you the law and the commandments of my Father, that ye shall believe in me, and that ye shall repent of your sins, and come unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Behold, ye have the commandments before you, and the law is fulfilled.

20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, and it is also written before you, that thou shalt not kill, and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment of God;

22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore, if ye shall come unto me, or shall desire to come unto me, and rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee—

24 Go thy way unto thy brother, and first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I will receive you.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him, lest at any time he shall get thee, and thou shalt be cast into prison.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.

27 Behold, it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery;

28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman, to lust after her, hath committed adultery already in his heart.

29 Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer none of these things to enter into your heart;

30 For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell.

31 It hath been written, that whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.

32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.

33 And again it is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;

34 But verily, verily, I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;

35 Nor by the earth, for it is his footstool;

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair black or white;

37 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever cometh of more than these is evil.

38 And behold, it is written, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth;

39 But I say unto you, that ye shall not resist evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also;

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also;

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn thou not away.

43 And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy;

44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.

46 Therefore those things which were of old time, which were under the law, in me are all fulfilled.

47 Old things are done away, and all things have become new.

48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

[Silver]

It is perfectly acceptable for you to claim to believe these theories of yours as our Article of Faith says, but they are not doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as has been demonstrated time after time in this thread. A quote from Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses is not doctrine. It is not binding upon us, and it may not even be correct. It is also possible that it wasn't recorded properly.

This is a great response Silver. I have that disclaimer at the head of every article I write - not official doctrine - though here's what I believe and why I believe. I appreciate the challenges, I do, as they are a refiner's fire of sorts. I'm not starting a church. I'm not looking to justify sin, and I certainly have not lied. I was just sealed to my wife and my six children on September 16th. The more my understanding deepens, the more I long for more light and knowledge. I stand taller, study more, and invite more to Christ.

Janderich's post is fantastic as well. There is a lot of evidence of MMP. There are scriptures and statements that seem rule out MMP as well. I understand that. I acknowledge your right to believe MMP is ruled out for the reasons you do. How about we continue forward with that mutual respect. I will tell you what I believe and why and you can do the same and we can drop the "liar" nonsense.

No, you are a liar, alarisherem. You can insist on civility, but what you are claiming is wrong. It is false. It is a lie. You received your "revelation" from the wrong source. It's up to you to abandon it. I note that you've left the article up on your blog. You will be held accountable for spreading lies there and here.

Elder Uchtdorf told you that your pet heresy is wrong. Will you persist in promoting it? An apostle versus you...which should I believe?

I have invited you again and again to abandon this base, contentious, and extremely immature behavior. Whether I err in doctrine the Lord knows I am honest and earnest in seeking Him, His knowledge, and His will in what I can and will continue to share. I am certainly not being led by an evil spirit as all the fruits of this experience have been wonderful. A bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water.

Moroni 7:11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

Your base behavior of false accusations, condemnation, disrespect, and incivility are all contrary to the basic teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yours is the bitter fountain and I've seen you splash that filthy water all over the place in these forums - all over anyone who dares support Trump. You may want to reread this chapter in light of the choices you've made here in these forums. You attend church on Sundays and then spend time online bitterly reviling those who see things differently than you. I hope you will reconsider this path.

3 Nephi 12:3 Yea, blessed are the poor in spirit who come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 And again, blessed are all they that mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 And blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 And blessed are all they who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled with the Holy Ghost.

7 And blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

8 And blessed are all the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 And blessed are all the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.

10 And blessed are all they who are persecuted for my name’s sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 And blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake;

12 For ye shall have great joy and be exceedingly glad, for great shall be your reward in heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets who were before you.

13 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you to be the salt of the earth; but if the salt shall lose its savor wherewith shall the earth be salted? The salt shall be thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot of men.

14 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you to be the light of this people. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.

15 Behold, do men light a candle and put it under a bushel? Nay, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light to all that are in the house;

16 Therefore let your light so shine before this people, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfil;

18 For verily I say unto you, one jot nor one tittle hath not passed away from the law, but in me it hath all been fulfilled.

19 And behold, I have given you the law and the commandments of my Father, that ye shall believe in me, and that ye shall repent of your sins, and come unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Behold, ye have the commandments before you, and the law is fulfilled.

20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, and it is also written before you, that thou shalt not kill, and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment of God;

22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore, if ye shall come unto me, or shall desire to come unto me, and rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee—

24 Go thy way unto thy brother, and first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I will receive you.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him, lest at any time he shall get thee, and thou shalt be cast into prison.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.

27 Behold, it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery;

28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman, to lust after her, hath committed adultery already in his heart.

29 Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer none of these things to enter into your heart;

30 For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell.

31 It hath been written, that whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.

32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.

33 And again it is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;

34 But verily, verily, I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;

35 Nor by the earth, for it is his footstool;

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair black or white;

37 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever cometh of more than these is evil.

38 And behold, it is written, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth;

39 But I say unto you, that ye shall not resist evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also;

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also;

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn thou not away.

43 And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy;

44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.

46 Therefore those things which were of old time, which were under the law, in me are all fulfilled.

47 Old things are done away, and all things have become new.

48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

Luckily for me (and not you, unfortunately), I am dedicated to following the Lord and not the lies you are pushing. After you admitted that Elder Uchtdorf's comment was compelling, I thought you might repent and enter into a phase of introspection. Alas, it was in vain. You are too tightly bound by Satan's chains.

If you want to be cuddled in your heresies, see your wife. If you want love and individual guidance away from your blasphemy, see your bishop (as you have been counseled repeatedly). If you want the straight truth unfiltered, see me.

[Silver]

You want to know another good reason why MMP is a heresy? Because Julie Rowe, the false prophetess, endorses it.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47419&start=60#p830618

The critical quote at the post in the link above is:
And finally to address the issue people are having will multiple probations. I’m so grateful that the Lord prepared me for this doctrine a few days before #49 came out but I was prepared and made ready so when I was inspired to listen to it, (and I’m so glad I did) I knew that this doctrine of multiple probations is real. This is advanced but true doctrine. I also now understand more of the temple blessings. I thought I understood it before but now I am sure and know partly why Joseph Smith said if he told all that he knew, there would be those among the saints that would try to kill him. It’s in the discourses everyone, it’s in the temple! Don’t just go and do a session but do all of the ordinances and if you listen you will hear it. Pray about it if you’re really wanting to know and don’t hear it. Remember we are in a Terrestrial world, not even the Telestial world yet although we are heading that way and quickly being prepared for it. Those who are ready will go on to the Telestial Kingdom when that time comes. There is so much we don’t know but this is a great time of change and learning if we want to take it upon us and make ourselves ready for it. I do know that Julie Rowe is a Prophetess, and many will be surprised to find out who she really is when this veil is lifted. This coming earthquake may wake some people up to who she is and then again it may not but we all have our free agency.

Can we all just pause a moment and have some pity on Julie? She really is messed up, as poor alaris is. However, I don't see any need to coddle them in their fantasies. The truth shall make them free.

Julie, without a doubt, is dabbling in things she shouldn't. Mental issues have been reported as well. While alaris seems lucid enough, he can't break free of his incorrect fallacies. Why is that? Why would he allow himself to be ejected from the church a 2nd time just to hang on to such a pernicious heresy?

[inho]

Alaris,
Did you ever address the quotes in Elizabeth's comment? If you did, then I must have missed it. Her comment was a very good response.

[Alaris]

Alaris,
Did you ever address the quotes in Elizabeth's comment? If you did, then I must have missed it. Her comment was a very good response.

I'll take a look and respond as time permits. Busy day! Thanks!

[Alaris]

This is a great response Silver. I have that disclaimer at the head of every article I write - not official doctrine - though here's what I believe and why I believe. I appreciate the challenges, I do, as they are a refiner's fire of sorts. I'm not starting a church. I'm not looking to justify sin, and I certainly have not lied. I was just sealed to my wife and my six children on September 16th. The more my understanding deepens, the more I long for more light and knowledge. I stand taller, study more, and invite more to Christ.

Janderich's post is fantastic as well. There is a lot of evidence of MMP. There are scriptures and statements that seem rule out MMP as well. I understand that. I acknowledge your right to believe MMP is ruled out for the reasons you do. How about we continue forward with that mutual respect. I will tell you what I believe and why and you can do the same and we can drop the "liar" nonsense.

No, you are a liar, alarisherem. You can insist on civility, but what you are claiming is wrong. It is false. It is a lie. You received your "revelation" from the wrong source. It's up to you to abandon it. I note that you've left the article up on your blog. You will be held accountable for spreading lies there and here.

Elder Uchtdorf told you that your pet heresy is wrong. Will you persist in promoting it? An apostle versus you...which should I believe?

I have invited you again and again to abandon this base, contentious, and extremely immature behavior. Whether I err in doctrine the Lord knows I am honest and earnest in seeking Him, His knowledge, and His will in what I can and will continue to share. I am certainly not being led by an evil spirit as all the fruits of this experience have been wonderful. A bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water.

Moroni 7:11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

Your base behavior of false accusations, condemnation, disrespect, and incivility are all contrary to the basic teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yours is the bitter fountain and I've seen you splash that filthy water all over the place in these forums - all over anyone who dares support Trump. You may want to reread this chapter in light of the choices you've made here in these forums. You attend church on Sundays and then spend time online bitterly reviling those who see things differently than you. I hope you will reconsider this path.

3 Nephi 12:3 Yea, blessed are the poor in spirit who come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 And again, blessed are all they that mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 And blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 And blessed are all they who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled with the Holy Ghost.

7 And blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

8 And blessed are all the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 And blessed are all the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.

10 And blessed are all they who are persecuted for my name’s sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 And blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake;

12 For ye shall have great joy and be exceedingly glad, for great shall be your reward in heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets who were before you.

13 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you to be the salt of the earth; but if the salt shall lose its savor wherewith shall the earth be salted? The salt shall be thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot of men.

14 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you to be the light of this people. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.

15 Behold, do men light a candle and put it under a bushel? Nay, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light to all that are in the house;

16 Therefore let your light so shine before this people, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfil;

18 For verily I say unto you, one jot nor one tittle hath not passed away from the law, but in me it hath all been fulfilled.

19 And behold, I have given you the law and the commandments of my Father, that ye shall believe in me, and that ye shall repent of your sins, and come unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Behold, ye have the commandments before you, and the law is fulfilled.

20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, and it is also written before you, that thou shalt not kill, and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment of God;

22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore, if ye shall come unto me, or shall desire to come unto me, and rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee—

24 Go thy way unto thy brother, and first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I will receive you.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him, lest at any time he shall get thee, and thou shalt be cast into prison.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.

27 Behold, it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery;

28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman, to lust after her, hath committed adultery already in his heart.

29 Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer none of these things to enter into your heart;

30 For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell.

31 It hath been written, that whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.

32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.

33 And again it is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;

34 But verily, verily, I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;

35 Nor by the earth, for it is his footstool;

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair black or white;

37 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever cometh of more than these is evil.

38 And behold, it is written, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth;

39 But I say unto you, that ye shall not resist evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also;

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also;

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn thou not away.

43 And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy;

44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.

46 Therefore those things which were of old time, which were under the law, in me are all fulfilled.

47 Old things are done away, and all things have become new.

48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

Luckily for me (and not you, unfortunately), I am dedicated to following the Lord and not the lies you are pushing. After you admitted that Elder Uchtdorf's comment was compelling, I thought you might repent and enter into a phase of introspection. Alas, it was in vain. You are too tightly bound by Satan's chains.

If you want to be cuddled in your heresies, see your wife. If you want love and individual guidance away from your blasphemy, see your bishop (as you have been counseled repeatedly). If you want the straight truth unfiltered, see me.

All right Silver. If you cannot see how even this most recent scathing post is contrary to the basic tenets of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then I will just pray for you at this point and hope you find that light. You are in no position to declare or defend doctrine if you can't understand how this elementary school behavior is glaringly contrary to the basic teachings of the sermon on the mount. If you ever decide to turn from this path I will happily forget and reengage you as I have already forgiven you of the insults to my character and lumping in my family with your shameful remarks.

There is a reason the Lord shared this in the chapter before engaging the nephites with his sermon:

3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

*whispers* insulting people's integrity and character and family might maketh angry an one. Peace.

[Silver]

No, you are a liar, alarisherem. You can insist on civility, but what you are claiming is wrong. It is false. It is a lie. You received your "revelation" from the wrong source. It's up to you to abandon it. I note that you've left the article up on your blog. You will be held accountable for spreading lies there and here.

Elder Uchtdorf told you that your pet heresy is wrong. Will you persist in promoting it? An apostle versus you...which should I believe?

I have invited you again and again to abandon this base, contentious, and extremely immature behavior. Whether I err in doctrine the Lord knows I am honest and earnest in seeking Him, His knowledge, and His will in what I can and will continue to share. I am certainly not being led by an evil spirit as all the fruits of this experience have been wonderful. A bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water.

Moroni 7:11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

Your base behavior of false accusations, condemnation, disrespect, and incivility are all contrary to the basic teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yours is the bitter fountain and I've seen you splash that filthy water all over the place in these forums - all over anyone who dares support Trump. You may want to reread this chapter in light of the choices you've made here in these forums. You attend church on Sundays and then spend time online bitterly reviling those who see things differently than you. I hope you will reconsider this path.

3 Nephi 12:3 Yea, blessed are the poor in spirit who come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 And again, blessed are all they that mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 And blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 And blessed are all they who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled with the Holy Ghost.

7 And blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

8 And blessed are all the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 And blessed are all the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.

10 And blessed are all they who are persecuted for my name’s sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 And blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake;

12 For ye shall have great joy and be exceedingly glad, for great shall be your reward in heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets who were before you.

13 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you to be the salt of the earth; but if the salt shall lose its savor wherewith shall the earth be salted? The salt shall be thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot of men.

14 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you to be the light of this people. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.

15 Behold, do men light a candle and put it under a bushel? Nay, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light to all that are in the house;

16 Therefore let your light so shine before this people, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfil;

18 For verily I say unto you, one jot nor one tittle hath not passed away from the law, but in me it hath all been fulfilled.

19 And behold, I have given you the law and the commandments of my Father, that ye shall believe in me, and that ye shall repent of your sins, and come unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Behold, ye have the commandments before you, and the law is fulfilled.

20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, and it is also written before you, that thou shalt not kill, and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment of God;

22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore, if ye shall come unto me, or shall desire to come unto me, and rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee—

24 Go thy way unto thy brother, and first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I will receive you.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him, lest at any time he shall get thee, and thou shalt be cast into prison.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.

27 Behold, it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery;

28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman, to lust after her, hath committed adultery already in his heart.

29 Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer none of these things to enter into your heart;

30 For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell.

31 It hath been written, that whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.

32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.

33 And again it is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;

34 But verily, verily, I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;

35 Nor by the earth, for it is his footstool;

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair black or white;

37 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever cometh of more than these is evil.

38 And behold, it is written, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth;

39 But I say unto you, that ye shall not resist evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also;

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also;

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn thou not away.

43 And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy;

44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.

46 Therefore those things which were of old time, which were under the law, in me are all fulfilled.

47 Old things are done away, and all things have become new.

48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

Luckily for me (and not you, unfortunately), I am dedicated to following the Lord and not the lies you are pushing. After you admitted that Elder Uchtdorf's comment was compelling, I thought you might repent and enter into a phase of introspection. Alas, it was in vain. You are too tightly bound by Satan's chains.

If you want to be cuddled in your heresies, see your wife. If you want love and individual guidance away from your blasphemy, see your bishop (as you have been counseled repeatedly). If you want the straight truth unfiltered, see me.

All right Silver. If you cannot see how even this most recent scathing post is contrary to the basic tenets of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then I will just pray for you at this point and hope you find that light. You are in no position to declare or defend doctrine if you can't understand how this elementary school behavior is glaringly contrary to the basic teachings of the sermon on the mount. If you ever decide to turn from this path I will happily forget and reengage you as I have already forgiven you of the insults to my character and lumping in my family with your shameful remarks.

There is a reason the Lord shared this in the chapter before engaging the nephites with his sermon:

3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

*whispers* insulting people's integrity and character and family might maketh angry an one. Peace.

No wonder you can't hear the Holy Ghost whispering for you to depart from those heresies you're pushing. I've already told you that your attempt to give me some sort of guilt trip on this matter is impossible. You don't listen though. You don't listen to all the messages you have received here. You don't listen to Elder Uchtdorf's simple message yesterday. You obviously need to get your hearing checked.

Moreover, it doesn't matter if I'm contentious or not. MMP is a heresy. What about the others here who have not been in your face like me who have told you the same thing? What satanic excuse are you using to deny their advice? See? You're not nearly as clever as you think you are. You have been told that your belief is not in keeping with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You have ignored that advice because you are held captive by the evil one.

There are plenty of unrighteous people in the world who can toss scripture bombs like you do. It doesn't make you right when you do. It's just another excuse for you to hide behind.

[Finrock]

Alaris,

Silver is a nobody as far as you and your beliefs are concerned. He is just a dude on the internet using this opportunity to make himself feel better about himself. He isn't your judge, your master, your guide, your teacher, or your prophet, seer, or revelator. He is a man/woman who is opining and pontificating because he can while cloaking his words in the eggshell of self-righteousness.

-Finrock

[Silver]

Alaris,

Silver is a nobody as far as you and your beliefs are concerned. He is just a dude on the internet using this opportunity to make himself feel better about himself. He isn't your judge, your master, your guide, your teacher, or your prophet, seer, or revelator. He is a man/woman who is opining and pontificating because he can while cloaking his words in the eggshell of self-righteousness.

-Finrock

alarisherem,
Ditto for Finrock.

-Silver

[mirkwood]

Alaris Silver,

Silver Alaris is a nobody as far as you and your beliefs are concerned. He is just a dude on the internet using this opportunity to make himself feel better about himself. He isn't your judge, your master, your guide, your teacher, or your prophet, seer, or revelator. He is a man/woman who is opining and pontificating because he can while cloaking his words in the eggshell of self-righteousness.

-Finrock

Fixed that for you.

[Silver]

Alaris Silver,

Silver Alaris is a nobody as far as you and your beliefs are concerned. He is just a dude on the internet using this opportunity to make himself feel better about himself. He isn't your judge, your master, your guide, your teacher, or your prophet, seer, or revelator. He is a man/woman who is opining and pontificating because he can while cloaking his words in the eggshell of self-righteousness.

-Finrock

Fixed that for you.

Division in the forum...what does that resemble? Oh, I don't know. Maybe some parallels in the scriptures about sheep and goats. Perhaps a biology lesson in wheat and tares. Those who have been forced to wrest the scriptures and uncanonized talks in this contest over MMP, which side would that be? Which side has accepted the plain and precious truths of the Gospel? Which side got spanked by a recent talk by an Apostle?

Yet Silver is the bad guy because he won't coddle the heretic. Classic.

[Finrock]

Alaris,

Silver is a nobody as far as you and your beliefs are concerned. He is just a dude on the internet using this opportunity to make himself feel better about himself. He isn't your judge, your master, your guide, your teacher, or your prophet, seer, or revelator. He is a man/woman who is opining and pontificating because he can while cloaking his words in the eggshell of self-righteousness.

-Finrock

alarisherem,
Ditto for Finrock.

-Silver

Exactly.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Alaris Silver,

Silver Alaris is a nobody as far as you and your beliefs are concerned. He is just a dude on the internet using this opportunity to make himself feel better about himself. He isn't your judge, your master, your guide, your teacher, or your prophet, seer, or revelator. He is a man/woman who is opining and pontificating because he can while cloaking his words in the eggshell of self-righteousness.

-Finrock

Fixed that for you.

Cool, thanks!

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Alaris,

Nobody on this forum is your judge, your master, your guide, your teacher, your prophet, seer, or revelator. No matter how much they quote, pontificate, opine, yell (figuratively), scream (figuratively), judge, belittle, mock, accuse, etc. they are just people who in the end are in no position to judge, belittle, mock, accuse, or correct you and your beliefs. Its just their opinions, their beliefs, their views (best case scenario) or they are just trolling and trying to make themselves feel better at your expense because they are insecure and scared (worst case scenario).

-Finrock

[Alaris]

Alaris,

Silver is a nobody as far as you and your beliefs are concerned. He is just a dude on the internet using this opportunity to make himself feel better about himself. He isn't your judge, your master, your guide, your teacher, or your prophet, seer, or revelator. He is a man/woman who is opining and pontificating because he can while cloaking his words in the eggshell of self-righteousness.

-Finrock

Appreciated Finrock. I gave Silver one last chance before disengaging for his sake and my mine to the extent of practicing the gospel that I preach... Long-suffering, turn the other cheek... The second great commandment etc. I'll get back to meatier posts and writing soon.... So much to say and so little time.

[Finrock]

Fixed that for you.

Division in the forum...what does that resemble? Oh, I don't know. Maybe some parallels in the scriptures about sheep and goats. Perhaps a biology lesson in wheat and tares. Those who have been forced to wrest the scriptures and uncanonized talks in this contest over MMP, which side would that be? Which side has accepted the plain and precious truths of the Gospel? Which side got spanked by a recent talk by an Apostle?

Yet Silver is the bad guy because he won't coddle the heretic. Classic.

Silver the sheep. Silver the wheat. Silver the scripture master. Silver, the one who is on the Lord's side. Silver the fountain of plain and precious truths. Silver, the judge of those who post on ldsfreedomforum.com and maybe even the world. Silver, the Speaker of the Words of the Apostles. Silver the representative of the Lord's anointed and of the Apostles. Silver the seer, who peeps in to the hearts of men. Silver who's opinions and views ARE pure truth and in fact which equate to the official words and views of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Silver who coddles no heretic and is willing to be the "bad guy" so that truth can prevail and the heretics put in their place.

Wonder of wonders.

-Finrock

So let it be written. So let it be done. Thanks for the laugh!

You're welcome.

-Finrock