Continuation of the seeds is a great gift of exaltation

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CelestialAngel
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Continuation of the seeds is a great gift of exaltation

Postby CelestialAngel » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:26 pm

The fact that we get to have an ETERNAL increase of posterity and never stop having children throughout eternity with our eternal companion seems like the greatest gift of exaltation. When you think about eternal lives it really is wonderful how much Heavenly Father will bless us and how much He loves us to give us such a wonderful gift. We get a continuation of the seeds forever. ;)

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Rand
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Re: Continuation of the seeds is a great gift of exaltation

Postby Rand » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:02 pm

Indeed! A powerful topic and profound concept!
Abr 2:10 And I will bless them through thy name; for as many as receive this Gospel shall be called after thy name, and shall be accounted thy seed, and shall rise up and bless thee, as their father;

11 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal.
And we have been given the gift of all the gifts of Abraham.

LightisTruth111
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Re: Continuation of the seeds is a great gift of exaltation

Postby LightisTruth111 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:45 am

CelestialAngel wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:26 pm
The fact that we get to have an ETERNAL increase of posterity and never stop having children throughout eternity with our eternal companion seems like the greatest gift of exaltation. When you think about eternal lives it really is wonderful how much Heavenly Father will bless us and how much He loves us to give us such a wonderful gift. We get a continuation of the seeds forever. ;)
Before such will be granted one must be capable to abide Celestial law.

simpleton
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Re: Continuation of the seeds is a great gift of exaltation

Postby simpleton » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:17 am

A most wonderful eternal blessing indeed, but, I do not think that the blessing of eternal increase will be bestowed upon those that murder their offspring, I/E , abortion , birth control etc.... Or to those that intentionally limit their families.

Juliet
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Re: Continuation of the seeds is a great gift of exaltation

Postby Juliet » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:16 am

It will be amazing when we see all life as a gift and not a burden. I don't know if that day will come unless we get rid of the monetary system. The monetary system limits life based on how competitive you can be. Only the most competitive can afford life because they can gather all the energy of those below them. When we all work and share equally out of a respect for all life and realize all jobs are equally as important, then we will have the benefit of many players in the orchestra, as opposed to as it is now where only the loudest players get to participate.

Imagine going to the grocery store and the grocer gives you free groceries, because he wants you to live and he values your life. Then you go to the dentist and get your teeth cleaned because the dentist values your life. And you share your tomatoes with your neighbors because you value each others lives and share in the joy of the harvest. Imagine you go to your It job and work for free because you value innovation. Imagine if you change your kids diaper for free because you value their life. Oh, wait, we already do that. So there is the proof we can do it since we already do it in many instances. Now we need to do it in every instance.

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5tev3
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Re: Continuation of the seeds is a great gift of exaltation

Postby 5tev3 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:51 pm

Juliet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:16 am
It will be amazing when we see all life as a gift and not a burden. I don't know if that day will come unless we get rid of the monetary system. The monetary system limits life based on how competitive you can be. Only the most competitive can afford life because they can gather all the energy of those below them. When we all work and share equally out of a respect for all life and realize all jobs are equally as important, then we will have the benefit of many players in the orchestra, as opposed to as it is now where only the loudest players get to participate.

Imagine going to the grocery store and the grocer gives you free groceries, because he wants you to live and he values your life. Then you go to the dentist and get your teeth cleaned because the dentist values your life. And you share your tomatoes with your neighbors because you value each others lives and share in the joy of the harvest. Imagine you go to your It job and work for free because you value innovation. Imagine if you change your kids diaper for free because you value their life. Oh, wait, we already do that. So there is the proof we can do it since we already do it in many instances. Now we need to do it in every instance.
Sounds like a John Lennon song. The problem is that you would need a society of willing participants to make that happen. Where that doesn't exist, such a situation is impossible. Everyone would have to adopt the same system of work ethic and morals otherwise the system would be quickly taken advantage of and abused and you would have full communism run by predators.

All jobs are not equally important. Is trimming bushes as important as heart surgery? One requires a few minutes of training maybe? The other requires years of initial education and continuing education. One makes a yard look nice, the other saves a life. Different jobs require different abilities, time, effort, desire, etc. The incentive for doing a job has to be there too. I'd rather trim bushes than perform surgery. That would be hell to me having to cut people open and mess around with innards; not my thing. I'm a graphic designer and entrepreneur so I like to create things. My job is not as important as a heart surgeon, but it is highly specialized and not everyone can do it.

It isn't bad to have an incentive to do work other than the work itself. Why plant an apple tree over an orange tree? Maybe you like apples more and want apples instead of oranges. Well, aren't all trees equal? Should it matter what we plant? Yes, because we reap what we sow and we sow because we have some kind of desire driving us.

In our world today, you can run a profitable business and have a comfortable life and still serve and help others. I know people that are wealthy that will go and pay off everyone's layaway at Walmart on Christmas and nobody knows who they are. There are a lot of people who give silently and don't seek recognition.

"But what about all these poor people on the streets?" some might say. Well, some are genuinely in a bad spot and not of their own making. But many are there because they choose to be, more than you'd probably expect. One man I met left a prosperous life to live on the streets because he hated taxes and the government and wanted complete freedom, unattached to any societal contracts. Another man had a family in the next state who wanted to take him in and help him get back on his feet but he refused. The pastor of the food kitchen told him that he had a free bus ticket for him, and all he needed to do is say the word. These stories go on and on. We will always have the poor with us here in mortality. Some people are HARD to help because they don't want it. We look at them and get a tear in our eye but they will not take the steps necessary to change their situation. All we can do with these people is give them comfort and compassion from time to time when they need it and whatever else is possible. If you have ever tried to help any of these brothers or sisters, you'll know that it is not something that some utopia will change. They aren't poor because they don't have money, the damage is deeper, deep, deep inside. It's much easier to fix the money problem.

I've shared this before but here it goes again. There was a neighborhood in Idaho that was unique to the area. It was like a min-slum right in the middle of an otherwise nice neighborhood. You could probably describe these people as "white trash" at least that is what they resembled but I loved these people. The members of the church wanted to help them and figured that if they could clean up their homes and yards it would help them feel equal to the other neighbors, so that's what they did. With their own time and money, they came in and invited themselves into the neighborhood. They painted homes, they cleaned trash out of yards, planted bushes, flowers, and grass and soon this little slum was beautiful and fit in with the rest of the area.

Two years later, it looked just as bad as before. None of it was taken care of, the old habits that caused it to become a slum in the first place were still there. They thought like many do, that if you just change the outside, that the inside would follow but that is the opposite of what is true. You must cleanse the inner vessel as Moroni taught.

One day, that dream of a society where all is shared and all are equal will be true but only because there will be a people that make it that way. It will not be something forced upon us or presented to us, we must build it. We must change, become converted, and be the kind of people that would be condusive to such a society. Other than that, captialism will have to do. It's the worst system out there, they say, except for all the others.

Rand
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Re: Continuation of the seeds is a great gift of exaltation

Postby Rand » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:39 pm

The Temple is the current pattern to follow. Everyone who holds a Temple recommend enjoys common responsibility and opportunity. Not all participate to the same level. But in the Temple, among those who attend as regular as possible, a grand interest in others presides.
As workers we are encouraged to make the patron experience the best it can be. If we consistently do that, our experience as workers is the best it can be; and that is pretty amazing!

Zion!

Juliet
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Re: Continuation of the seeds is a great gift of exaltation

Postby Juliet » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:42 pm

5tev3 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:51 pm
Juliet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:16 am
It will be amazing when we see all life as a gift and not a burden. I don't know if that day will come unless we get rid of the monetary system. The monetary system limits life based on how competitive you can be. Only the most competitive can afford life because they can gather all the energy of those below them. When we all work and share equally out of a respect for all life and realize all jobs are equally as important, then we will have the benefit of many players in the orchestra, as opposed to as it is now where only the loudest players get to participate.

Imagine going to the grocery store and the grocer gives you free groceries, because he wants you to live and he values your life. Then you go to the dentist and get your teeth cleaned because the dentist values your life. And you share your tomatoes with your neighbors because you value each others lives and share in the joy of the harvest. Imagine you go to your It job and work for free because you value innovation. Imagine if you change your kids diaper for free because you value their life. Oh, wait, we already do that. So there is the proof we can do it since we already do it in many instances. Now we need to do it in every instance.
Sounds like a John Lennon song. The problem is that you would need a society of willing participants to make that happen. Where that doesn't exist, such a situation is impossible. Everyone would have to adopt the same system of work ethic and morals otherwise the system would be quickly taken advantage of and abused and you would have full communism run by predators.

All jobs are not equally important. Is trimming bushes as important as heart surgery? One requires a few minutes of training maybe? The other requires years of initial education and continuing education. One makes a yard look nice, the other saves a life. Different jobs require different abilities, time, effort, desire, etc. The incentive for doing a job has to be there too.
...
A person who is not able to perform heart surgery should not be doing it. That should be done by someone who has the incentive but also the talent and desire. Every one needs a job. Like in the church, some people lead millions and some people pick up hymn books. The fact that one helps more than others, does not mean the person picking up hymn books does not need a calling.

We all have different gifts that go into our life's calling. If we all were to seek the Kingdom of God, we would find ourselves doing the career that is right for us. A person with the mental and other capacities to be a heart surgeon would be incredibly bored trimming bushes all day. To some, that may seem harder than being a heart surgeon. (Not with the hours Doctors are forced to work, though, as in the society today many doctors are incredibly burned out and work too long of shifts to be able to do their work well or enjoy it.)

I would also think that in a society based upon love, there would be much less heart problems! Also, the amount of time on education people currently spend to become specialized in their field is not necessarily reciprocal to the work they will be doing. There is a lot of politics and busy work that could be cut down in the education department if our education system wasn't based on making money, greed and ego. As in any profession; a lot of what a Doctor learns is during the actual hands on training. And there is a lot of protocol that is not necessarily in the best interest of the responsible parties because we live in a world of lawsuits and basically down right hatred that practitioners must take into account.

When I was giving birth, I had to get an IV in my hand, during the delivery. There was no way that IV would do me any good because it was too late, but they had to give it to me anyway, sticking my hand 6 times while I was pushing out the baby, all because of protocol. They had no freedom to do what was best for me because they had to fill out a paper correctly so they didn't get in trouble by the boss. It was a very miserable experience.

There are some ethics that trump all other ethics, such as unconditional love and generosity. If those who have the incentive, desire, charity, and love to work hard, and there are others who do not have that drive or will, then they ought to be treated with care, because it is not normal to want to do nothing with your life. It is only normal in a society where people are told what to do by "authorities" from the time they are 5 years old; driven into 6 to 8 hour work days and never given a chance to rest, dream, and become who and what they want to be.

The culture of slums we have is more indicative of a fight to reel back our otherwise overworked, under-nurtured, and over-regulated society then it is indicative of lazy or slothful humanity. If we would get rid of public school, get rid of public-dictated land, brink back the apprentice education system, allow kids to work as they so desire, and allow people land to create with as they will, and allow small city councils to worry about getting clean water and sanitation to all properties, then people would have the tools they need to become who they want to be. Government would consist of interpersonal contracts based on natural rights. We would be so amazing if we could just get out of our own way.

No, society won't do this unless it overcomes its aggressive and combative nature. Fortunately, kids who are actually given a chance to develop normally and not be helicoptered, learn quickly that it is better to make deals with people and to share than to fight. In our society, kids never have learned how inconvenient it is to fight, because they are never given the chance to fight as kids and see that it ends up taking too much energy. I hate to admit that I let my kids fight over toys. And, it is hard to watch. But, it is amazing, because after a long time of it, over and over and over, they finally start to get that it just doesn't work. They even share the electronics. It is amazing and they learned it because they had a chance to learn it. The same principles apply to self defense. Kids are not allowed to defend themselves, so they never learn the importance of defending your freedom and rights. They are taught to go to a higher authority and complain when their freedoms are abused. This creates adults who will not take up arms in defense of their wives, children, and property. The lessons that we learn as kids are so crucial to the survival of humanity.

Michelle
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Re: Continuation of the seeds is a great gift of exaltation

Postby Michelle » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:58 pm

Juliet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:42 pm
5tev3 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:51 pm
Juliet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:16 am
It will be amazing when we see all life as a gift and not a burden. I don't know if that day will come unless we get rid of the monetary system. The monetary system limits life based on how competitive you can be. Only the most competitive can afford life because they can gather all the energy of those below them. When we all work and share equally out of a respect for all life and realize all jobs are equally as important, then we will have the benefit of many players in the orchestra, as opposed to as it is now where only the loudest players get to participate.

Imagine going to the grocery store and the grocer gives you free groceries, because he wants you to live and he values your life. Then you go to the dentist and get your teeth cleaned because the dentist values your life. And you share your tomatoes with your neighbors because you value each others lives and share in the joy of the harvest. Imagine you go to your It job and work for free because you value innovation. Imagine if you change your kids diaper for free because you value their life. Oh, wait, we already do that. So there is the proof we can do it since we already do it in many instances. Now we need to do it in every instance.
Sounds like a John Lennon song. The problem is that you would need a society of willing participants to make that happen. Where that doesn't exist, such a situation is impossible. Everyone would have to adopt the same system of work ethic and morals otherwise the system would be quickly taken advantage of and abused and you would have full communism run by predators.

All jobs are not equally important. Is trimming bushes as important as heart surgery? One requires a few minutes of training maybe? The other requires years of initial education and continuing education. One makes a yard look nice, the other saves a life. Different jobs require different abilities, time, effort, desire, etc. The incentive for doing a job has to be there too.
...
A person who is not able to perform heart surgery should not be doing it. That should be done by someone who has the incentive but also the talent and desire. Every one needs a job. Like in the church, some people lead millions and some people pick up hymn books. The fact that one helps more than others, does not mean the person picking up hymn books does not need a calling.

We all have different gifts that go into our life's calling. If we all were to seek the Kingdom of God, we would find ourselves doing the career that is right for us. A person with the mental and other capacities to be a heart surgeon would be incredibly bored trimming bushes all day. To some, that may seem harder than being a heart surgeon. (Not with the hours Doctors are forced to work, though, as in the society today many doctors are incredibly burned out and work too long of shifts to be able to do their work well or enjoy it.)

I would also think that in a society based upon love, there would be much less heart problems! Also, the amount of time on education people currently spend to become specialized in their field is not necessarily reciprocal to the work they will be doing. There is a lot of politics and busy work that could be cut down in the education department if our education system wasn't based on making money, greed and ego. As in any profession; a lot of what a Doctor learns is during the actual hands on training. And there is a lot of protocol that is not necessarily in the best interest of the responsible parties because we live in a world of lawsuits and basically down right hatred that practitioners must take into account.

When I was giving birth, I had to get an IV in my hand, during the delivery. There was no way that IV would do me any good because it was too late, but they had to give it to me anyway, sticking my hand 6 times while I was pushing out the baby, all because of protocol. They had no freedom to do what was best for me because they had to fill out a paper correctly so they didn't get in trouble by the boss. It was a very miserable experience.

There are some ethics that trump all other ethics, such as unconditional love and generosity. If those who have the incentive, desire, charity, and love to work hard, and there are others who do not have that drive or will, then they ought to be treated with care, because it is not normal to want to do nothing with your life. It is only normal in a society where people are told what to do by "authorities" from the time they are 5 years old; driven into 6 to 8 hour work days and never given a chance to rest, dream, and become who and what they want to be.

The culture of slums we have is more indicative of a fight to reel back our otherwise overworked, under-nurtured, and over-regulated society then it is indicative of lazy or slothful humanity. If we would get rid of public school, get rid of public-dictated land, brink back the apprentice education system, allow kids to work as they so desire, and allow people land to create with as they will, and allow small city councils to worry about getting clean water and sanitation to all properties, then people would have the tools they need to become who they want to be. Government would consist of interpersonal contracts based on natural rights. We would be so amazing if we could just get out of our own way.
So you haven't heard about the natural man?
Natural Man
See also Born Again, Born of God; Carnal; Fall of Adam and Eve

A person who chooses to be influenced by the passions, desires, appetites, and senses of the flesh rather than by the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Such a person can comprehend physical things but not spiritual things. All people are carnal, or mortal, because of the Fall of Adam and Eve. Each person must be born again through the Atonement of Jesus Christ to cease being a natural man.

The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit, 1 Cor. 2:14.

The natural man is an enemy to God and should be put off, Mosiah 3:19.

He that persists in his own carnal nature remaineth in his fallen state, Mosiah 16:5 (Alma 42:7–24; D&C 20:20).

What natural man is there that knoweth these things, Alma 26:19–22.

Natural or carnal men are without God in the world, Alma 41:11.

Because of his transgression, man became spiritually dead, D&C 29:41.

Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, D&C 67:12.

And man began to be carnal, sensual, and devilish, Moses 5:13 (Moses 6:49).

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/natural-man?lang=eng
As cool as your idea is, it is an idea that cannot be realized in this world on a worldwide scale. Why? Agency. Not all people will choose your way of life. In fact, that is the point of mortality to separate those who do and those who don't want the life you describe. Now, that doesn't mean it cannot happen in this world for a group of people, but it has to be chosen (like the City of Enoch or after Christ visited the Americas.) But again, that is voluntary and falls apart when people CHOOSE to do differently.

I know it is hard to wrap your mind around people WANTING to do wrong, but they actually exist and no amount of wishing will change that.

Remember, God, the perfect parent let 1/3 part of his children CHOOSE to skip mortality because of agency. Laman and Lemuel were not a fluke or accident, opposition is necessary to the fulfilling of the plan of salvation and they were chosen, by God, to be a part of Lehi's family. This pattern is seen through history. Think of Adam and Eve having Cain and Abel.

It is not the fault of the righteous that the wicked choose to be wicked. But it is the responsibility of the righteous to offer the wicked another option and then allow them to choose.

Juliet
captain of 100
Posts: 643
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:30 pm

Re: Continuation of the seeds is a great gift of exaltation

Postby Juliet » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:13 am

Michelle wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:58 pm
Juliet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:42 pm
5tev3 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:51 pm
Juliet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:16 am
It will be amazing when we see all life as a gift and not a burden. I don't know if that day will come unless we get rid of the monetary system. The monetary system limits life based on how competitive you can be. Only the most competitive can afford life because they can gather all the energy of those below them. When we all work and share equally out of a respect for all life and realize all jobs are equally as important, then we will have the benefit of many players in the orchestra, as opposed to as it is now where only the loudest players get to participate.

Imagine going to the grocery store and the grocer gives you free groceries, because he wants you to live and he values your life. Then you go to the dentist and get your teeth cleaned because the dentist values your life. And you share your tomatoes with your neighbors because you value each others lives and share in the joy of the harvest. Imagine you go to your It job and work for free because you value innovation. Imagine if you change your kids diaper for free because you value their life. Oh, wait, we already do that. So there is the proof we can do it since we already do it in many instances. Now we need to do it in every instance.
Sounds like a John Lennon song. The problem is that you would need a society of willing participants to make that happen. Where that doesn't exist, such a situation is impossible. Everyone would have to adopt the same system of work ethic and morals otherwise the system would be quickly taken advantage of and abused and you would have full communism run by predators.

All jobs are not equally important. Is trimming bushes as important as heart surgery? One requires a few minutes of training maybe? The other requires years of initial education and continuing education. One makes a yard look nice, the other saves a life. Different jobs require different abilities, time, effort, desire, etc. The incentive for doing a job has to be there too.
...
A person who is not able to perform heart surgery should not be doing it. That should be done by someone who has the incentive but also the talent and desire. Every one needs a job. Like in the church, some people lead millions and some people pick up hymn books. The fact that one helps more than others, does not mean the person picking up hymn books does not need a calling.

We all have different gifts that go into our life's calling. If we all were to seek the Kingdom of God, we would find ourselves doing the career that is right for us. A person with the mental and other capacities to be a heart surgeon would be incredibly bored trimming bushes all day. To some, that may seem harder than being a heart surgeon. (Not with the hours Doctors are forced to work, though, as in the society today many doctors are incredibly burned out and work too long of shifts to be able to do their work well or enjoy it.)

I would also think that in a society based upon love, there would be much less heart problems! Also, the amount of time on education people currently spend to become specialized in their field is not necessarily reciprocal to the work they will be doing. There is a lot of politics and busy work that could be cut down in the education department if our education system wasn't based on making money, greed and ego. As in any profession; a lot of what a Doctor learns is during the actual hands on training. And there is a lot of protocol that is not necessarily in the best interest of the responsible parties because we live in a world of lawsuits and basically down right hatred that practitioners must take into account.

When I was giving birth, I had to get an IV in my hand, during the delivery. There was no way that IV would do me any good because it was too late, but they had to give it to me anyway, sticking my hand 6 times while I was pushing out the baby, all because of protocol. They had no freedom to do what was best for me because they had to fill out a paper correctly so they didn't get in trouble by the boss. It was a very miserable experience.

There are some ethics that trump all other ethics, such as unconditional love and generosity. If those who have the incentive, desire, charity, and love to work hard, and there are others who do not have that drive or will, then they ought to be treated with care, because it is not normal to want to do nothing with your life. It is only normal in a society where people are told what to do by "authorities" from the time they are 5 years old; driven into 6 to 8 hour work days and never given a chance to rest, dream, and become who and what they want to be.

The culture of slums we have is more indicative of a fight to reel back our otherwise overworked, under-nurtured, and over-regulated society then it is indicative of lazy or slothful humanity. If we would get rid of public school, get rid of public-dictated land, brink back the apprentice education system, allow kids to work as they so desire, and allow people land to create with as they will, and allow small city councils to worry about getting clean water and sanitation to all properties, then people would have the tools they need to become who they want to be. Government would consist of interpersonal contracts based on natural rights. We would be so amazing if we could just get out of our own way.
So you haven't heard about the natural man?
Natural Man
See also Born Again, Born of God; Carnal; Fall of Adam and Eve

A person who chooses to be influenced by the passions, desires, appetites, and senses of the flesh rather than by the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Such a person can comprehend physical things but not spiritual things. All people are carnal, or mortal, because of the Fall of Adam and Eve. Each person must be born again through the Atonement of Jesus Christ to cease being a natural man.

The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit, 1 Cor. 2:14.

The natural man is an enemy to God and should be put off, Mosiah 3:19.

He that persists in his own carnal nature remaineth in his fallen state, Mosiah 16:5 (Alma 42:7–24; D&C 20:20).

What natural man is there that knoweth these things, Alma 26:19–22.

Natural or carnal men are without God in the world, Alma 41:11.

Because of his transgression, man became spiritually dead, D&C 29:41.

Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, D&C 67:12.

And man began to be carnal, sensual, and devilish, Moses 5:13 (Moses 6:49).

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/natural-man?lang=eng
As cool as your idea is, it is an idea that cannot be realized in this world on a worldwide scale. Why? Agency. Not all people will choose your way of life. In fact, that is the point of mortality to separate those who do and those who don't want the life you describe. Now, that doesn't mean it cannot happen in this world for a group of people, but it has to be chosen (like the City of Enoch or after Christ visited the Americas.) But again, that is voluntary and falls apart when people CHOOSE to do differently.

I know it is hard to wrap your mind around people WANTING to do wrong, but they actually exist and no amount of wishing will change that.

Remember, God, the perfect parent let 1/3 part of his children CHOOSE to skip mortality because of agency. Laman and Lemuel were not a fluke or accident, opposition is necessary to the fulfilling of the plan of salvation and they were chosen, by God, to be a part of Lehi's family. This pattern is seen through history. Think of Adam and Eve having Cain and Abel.

It is not the fault of the righteous that the wicked choose to be wicked. But it is the responsibility of the righteous to offer the wicked another option and then allow them to choose.
But why, why wouldn't they choose the loving way of life? Is not love more powerful than hatred? Is not love and compassion more powerful than greed? If we haven't realized it in the pre-earth life or on this earth yet, perhaps it is because we fail to implement these principles fully even among the most righteous among us.

Jesus showed the way to love others unconditionally. To go after the lost until it is found. He is about making onement, not about succumbing to the divide. Yes, we must overcome the natural man. But we don't do that through principles of hatred, greed, and disparagement. We cast off the natural man by keeping the commandment to love each other and ourselves as God loves us. Like a baby must be weaned, me must be weaned from our carnal natures. But you don't do that by abusing the baby, but rather, in patience and love and understanding, the baby will naturally grow and overcome its old nature. If we could only nurture each other who need help overcoming the natural man instead of condemning each other, society would easily grow into a haven.

Let's not be so sure in our self proclaimed righteousness that we had absolutely nothing to do with the creation or existence of evil. Many times, our self righteousness and inability to love the wicked; along with our obsession with labeling people as good or bad creates further separation and makes it impossible for those on the wrong side to receive God's love which is given to all freely, so they can have hope to cross over and repent.

Michelle
captain of 100
Posts: 612
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 2:33 pm

Re: Continuation of the seeds is a great gift of exaltation

Postby Michelle » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:55 pm

Juliet wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:13 am
Michelle wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:58 pm
Juliet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:42 pm
5tev3 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:51 pm


Sounds like a John Lennon song. The problem is that you would need a society of willing participants to make that happen. Where that doesn't exist, such a situation is impossible. Everyone would have to adopt the same system of work ethic and morals otherwise the system would be quickly taken advantage of and abused and you would have full communism run by predators.

All jobs are not equally important. Is trimming bushes as important as heart surgery? One requires a few minutes of training maybe? The other requires years of initial education and continuing education. One makes a yard look nice, the other saves a life. Different jobs require different abilities, time, effort, desire, etc. The incentive for doing a job has to be there too.
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A person who is not able to perform heart surgery should not be doing it. That should be done by someone who has the incentive but also the talent and desire. Every one needs a job. Like in the church, some people lead millions and some people pick up hymn books. The fact that one helps more than others, does not mean the person picking up hymn books does not need a calling.

We all have different gifts that go into our life's calling. If we all were to seek the Kingdom of God, we would find ourselves doing the career that is right for us. A person with the mental and other capacities to be a heart surgeon would be incredibly bored trimming bushes all day. To some, that may seem harder than being a heart surgeon. (Not with the hours Doctors are forced to work, though, as in the society today many doctors are incredibly burned out and work too long of shifts to be able to do their work well or enjoy it.)

I would also think that in a society based upon love, there would be much less heart problems! Also, the amount of time on education people currently spend to become specialized in their field is not necessarily reciprocal to the work they will be doing. There is a lot of politics and busy work that could be cut down in the education department if our education system wasn't based on making money, greed and ego. As in any profession; a lot of what a Doctor learns is during the actual hands on training. And there is a lot of protocol that is not necessarily in the best interest of the responsible parties because we live in a world of lawsuits and basically down right hatred that practitioners must take into account.

When I was giving birth, I had to get an IV in my hand, during the delivery. There was no way that IV would do me any good because it was too late, but they had to give it to me anyway, sticking my hand 6 times while I was pushing out the baby, all because of protocol. They had no freedom to do what was best for me because they had to fill out a paper correctly so they didn't get in trouble by the boss. It was a very miserable experience.

There are some ethics that trump all other ethics, such as unconditional love and generosity. If those who have the incentive, desire, charity, and love to work hard, and there are others who do not have that drive or will, then they ought to be treated with care, because it is not normal to want to do nothing with your life. It is only normal in a society where people are told what to do by "authorities" from the time they are 5 years old; driven into 6 to 8 hour work days and never given a chance to rest, dream, and become who and what they want to be.

The culture of slums we have is more indicative of a fight to reel back our otherwise overworked, under-nurtured, and over-regulated society then it is indicative of lazy or slothful humanity. If we would get rid of public school, get rid of public-dictated land, brink back the apprentice education system, allow kids to work as they so desire, and allow people land to create with as they will, and allow small city councils to worry about getting clean water and sanitation to all properties, then people would have the tools they need to become who they want to be. Government would consist of interpersonal contracts based on natural rights. We would be so amazing if we could just get out of our own way.
So you haven't heard about the natural man?
Natural Man
See also Born Again, Born of God; Carnal; Fall of Adam and Eve

A person who chooses to be influenced by the passions, desires, appetites, and senses of the flesh rather than by the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Such a person can comprehend physical things but not spiritual things. All people are carnal, or mortal, because of the Fall of Adam and Eve. Each person must be born again through the Atonement of Jesus Christ to cease being a natural man.

The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit, 1 Cor. 2:14.

The natural man is an enemy to God and should be put off, Mosiah 3:19.

He that persists in his own carnal nature remaineth in his fallen state, Mosiah 16:5 (Alma 42:7–24; D&C 20:20).

What natural man is there that knoweth these things, Alma 26:19–22.

Natural or carnal men are without God in the world, Alma 41:11.

Because of his transgression, man became spiritually dead, D&C 29:41.

Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, D&C 67:12.

And man began to be carnal, sensual, and devilish, Moses 5:13 (Moses 6:49).

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/natural-man?lang=eng
As cool as your idea is, it is an idea that cannot be realized in this world on a worldwide scale. Why? Agency. Not all people will choose your way of life. In fact, that is the point of mortality to separate those who do and those who don't want the life you describe. Now, that doesn't mean it cannot happen in this world for a group of people, but it has to be chosen (like the City of Enoch or after Christ visited the Americas.) But again, that is voluntary and falls apart when people CHOOSE to do differently.

I know it is hard to wrap your mind around people WANTING to do wrong, but they actually exist and no amount of wishing will change that.

Remember, God, the perfect parent let 1/3 part of his children CHOOSE to skip mortality because of agency. Laman and Lemuel were not a fluke or accident, opposition is necessary to the fulfilling of the plan of salvation and they were chosen, by God, to be a part of Lehi's family. This pattern is seen through history. Think of Adam and Eve having Cain and Abel.

It is not the fault of the righteous that the wicked choose to be wicked. But it is the responsibility of the righteous to offer the wicked another option and then allow them to choose.
But why, why wouldn't they choose the loving way of life? Is not love more powerful than hatred? Is not love and compassion more powerful than greed? If we haven't realized it in the pre-earth life or on this earth yet, perhaps it is because we fail to implement these principles fully even among the most righteous among us.

Jesus showed the way to love others unconditionally. To go after the lost until it is found. He is about making onement, not about succumbing to the divide. Yes, we must overcome the natural man. But we don't do that through principles of hatred, greed, and disparagement. We cast off the natural man by keeping the commandment to love each other and ourselves as God loves us. Like a baby must be weaned, me must be weaned from our carnal natures. But you don't do that by abusing the baby, but rather, in patience and love and understanding, the baby will naturally grow and overcome its old nature. If we could only nurture each other who need help overcoming the natural man instead of condemning each other, society would easily grow into a haven.

Let's not be so sure in our self proclaimed righteousness that we had absolutely nothing to do with the creation or existence of evil. Many times, our self righteousness and inability to love the wicked; along with our obsession with labeling people as good or bad creates further separation and makes it impossible for those on the wrong side to receive God's love which is given to all freely, so they can have hope to cross over and repent.
Again, if God, the perfect parent, could not stop, and would allow 1/3 to choose to walk away from mortality and eternal life I fail to see how we, very imperfect people are going to save everyone.

There is nothing self-righteous about allowing people to choose for themselves.

Of course we love, teach, exhort, pray for and even cry for those who choose wickedness over righteousness. Your message seems to imply, however, that if Lehi, or Adam or God were a better parent we wouldn't lose anyone to wickedness.

Just like I am not responsible for Adam's transgressions, neither is the parent responsible for the child's if they have done their best. Or the rest of us for those in society who just choose differently.


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