Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

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LdsMarco
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby LdsMarco » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:11 pm

Let's not forget when he wrote his apostate book which led him to get excommunicated -- let's not forget that the church leaders asked him to not publish it and to remove it. He even wanted to do it - but because he signed contracts, he couldn't. Therefore, he didn't want to get sued, etc. That being said, he chose to be afraid of men.

So what does that tell you? If he knew that book was from God, then he would have never attempted to take it off the shelves. End of story!

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Vision » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:21 pm

LdsMarco wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:36 pm
God is an unchanging God, remember? It is plain to understand.[/quote]

Except for Blacks can't have the priesthood, blacks can have the priesthood, polygamy is eternal marriage, polygamy is not eternal marriage. God is unchangeable unless the Government wants him to change things up a bit.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby LdsMarco » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:23 pm

Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:21 pm
Except for Blacks can't have the priesthood, blacks can have the priesthood, polygamy is eternal marriage, polygamy is not eternal marriage. God is unchangeable unless the Government wants him to change things up a bit.
Snufferite in the house

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby LdsMarco » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:24 pm

HA! This makes me laugh... how are the lamanites to blossom if they do not have the priesthood? LOL

Get over it .... you snufferites have been deceived. Repent!

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Vision » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:38 pm

LdsMarco wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:24 pm
HA! This makes me laugh... how are the lamanites to blossom if they do not have the priesthood? LOL

Get over it .... you snufferites have been deceived. Repent!
I'm not a snufferite.

The laminates are blacks? I thought they were from Central America if you believe in the Meso-American BOM, or Native Americans if you believe in the Great Lakes BOM. Oops another contradiction in Mormonism.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby LdsMarco » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:50 pm

Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:38 pm
LdsMarco wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:24 pm
HA! This makes me laugh... how are the lamanites to blossom if they do not have the priesthood? LOL

Get over it .... you snufferites have been deceived. Repent!
I'm not a snufferite.

The laminates are blacks? I thought they were from Central America if you believe in the Meso-American BOM, or Native Americans if you believe in the Great Lakes BOM. Oops another contradiction in Mormonism.
I'm a Lamanite. The Lamanites are all over the place. Let's not get off topic. Point is, You're wrong about all what you have said. Clearly, you are a Snufferite. At least undercover. If not, you're an apostate/anti

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Vision » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:15 pm

LdsMarco wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:50 pm
Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:38 pm
LdsMarco wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:24 pm
HA! This makes me laugh... how are the lamanites to blossom if they do not have the priesthood? LOL

Get over it .... you snufferites have been deceived. Repent!
I'm not a snufferite.

The laminates are blacks? I thought they were from Central America if you believe in the Meso-American BOM, or Native Americans if you believe in the Great Lakes BOM. Oops another contradiction in Mormonism.
I'm a Lamanite. The Lamanites are all over the place. Let's not get off topic. Point is, You're wrong about all what you have said. Clearly, you are a Snufferite. At least undercover. If not, you're an apostate/anti
The point is there are many contradictions between scriptures, church history, and mormon beliefs. We are supposed to obey the word of wisdom except for the restaurants that sale alcohol in the Church owned city creek mall, oops there I go again with another contradiction.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby LdsMarco » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:04 pm

Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:15 pm
The point is there are many contradictions between scriptures, church history, and mormon beliefs. We are supposed to obey the word of wisdom except for the restaurants that sale alcohol in the Church owned city creek mall, oops there I go again with another contradiction.
look up. The only thing I can say is to be the example.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby e-eye2.0 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:46 am

Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:15 pm
LdsMarco wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:50 pm
Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:38 pm
LdsMarco wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:24 pm
HA! This makes me laugh... how are the lamanites to blossom if they do not have the priesthood? LOL

Get over it .... you snufferites have been deceived. Repent!
I'm not a snufferite.

The laminates are blacks? I thought they were from Central America if you believe in the Meso-American BOM, or Native Americans if you believe in the Great Lakes BOM. Oops another contradiction in Mormonism.
I'm a Lamanite. The Lamanites are all over the place. Let's not get off topic. Point is, You're wrong about all what you have said. Clearly, you are a Snufferite. At least undercover. If not, you're an apostate/anti
The point is there are many contradictions between scriptures, church history, and mormon beliefs. We are supposed to obey the word of wisdom except for the restaurants that sale alcohol in the Church owned city creek mall, oops there I go again with another contradiction.
Nephites use to give strong drink to the Lamanites to their advantage - and they didn't even hold back, as they would give them the strong stuff - knock you out strong.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby eddie » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:51 am

Log should write a book! I personally have lost interest in fiction, I prefer following the Prophet who does have the keys and direct revelation from Jesus Christ. ( And I'm not talking about the forum Jesus 😂.)

The great and abominable church is anyone or a group of people who try to deceive you and take you away from truth. As we are counseled,

" WATCH AND PRAY "

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby silk » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:37 am

I think it's instructive to see how they try to function without authorized leadership. Denver Snuffer was apparently forbidden to assist with the Guide and Standard, so they're left to themselves.

One big problem is that they can only receive revelation as individuals. Then they must try to persuade the other 400+ people as to why revelation they received for themselves should be binding on everyone else.

The result of this has been that most people are either quoting scriptures, Denver Snuffer, or a combination of the two as their offering. It's a far cry from D&C 20 (what they seek to replace). That was a revelation straight from God.

It gives me even more appreciation for Elder Oaks' talk on the two lines of communication:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng

I can only imagine what it's going to be like when they try to decide where their temple should be built, who should own the land, and who will control the temple once its built.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby e-eye2.0 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:50 am

silk wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:37 am
I think it's instructive to see how they try to function without authorized leadership. Denver Snuffer was apparently forbidden to assist with the Guide and Standard, so they're left to themselves.

One big problem is that they can only receive revelation as individuals. Then they must try to persuade the other 400+ people as to why revelation they received for themselves should be binding on everyone else.

The result of this has been that most people are either quoting scriptures, Denver Snuffer, or a combination of the two as their offering. It's a far cry from D&C 20 (what they seek to replace). That was a revelation straight from God.

It gives me even more appreciation for Elder Oaks' talk on the two lines of communication:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng

I can only imagine what it's going to be like when they try to decide where their temple should be built, who should own the land, and who will control the temple once its built.
Current pace of collecting 5 million like the goal they have puts them at about 130 or so years. Maybe they will build a smaller temple instead.

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Mutual Agreement?

Postby LDS Anarchist » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:28 pm

"Mutual agreement." Does that mean unanimous consent or merely majority consent? It looks like initially the understanding among these people was that it meant unanimity, but when they couldn't obtain a unanimous vote, they switched it to majority. Log and at least one other person doesn't like that switch, considering it a bait and switch. See their latest blog post and its follow up comments:

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Re: Guide and Standard stuff

Postby AI2.0 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:31 pm

LDS Anarchist wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:41 pm
For those who wish to follow this Guide and Standard business among the Mr. Snuffleupaguses, here are some links:

Guide and Standard Blog

Log's Blog

Guide and Standard discussion on the Remnant of Jacob Forum
Thanks for sharing the links. Am I correct in thinking that the committee is creating a statement of the guide and standard for the Remnant? By what authority do they take this on? And why is 'log' writing their principle statements? They don't even make a pretense at receiving revelation through one having authority.

I know the 'Lord' told Denver Snuffer that he wasn't supposed to be involved in it, but really, if he's the supposedly the prophet that has the keys now and is supposed to be ushering in Zion, why isn't he supposed to do this? This Remnant movement is going down the path of being just another religion following the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture, IMO.
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby marc » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:51 pm

It's my understanding that all those who have participated in the covenant are required (and thus authorized) by the Lord to write a statement of principles upon which they all agree, and without the involvement of a "strongman" as Denver Snuffer put it often, to "lead" the effort. They are thus left to wrestle with the principle of becoming one heart in their attempt to mutually agree upon a statement, which they can unanimously present it to the Lord.
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby AI2.0 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:38 am

silk wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:37 am
I think it's instructive to see how they try to function without authorized leadership. Denver Snuffer was apparently forbidden to assist with the Guide and Standard, so they're left to themselves.

One big problem is that they can only receive revelation as individuals. Then they must try to persuade the other 400+ people as to why revelation they received for themselves should be binding on everyone else.

The result of this has been that most people are either quoting scriptures, Denver Snuffer, or a combination of the two as their offering. It's a far cry from D&C 20 (what they seek to replace). That was a revelation straight from God.

It gives me even more appreciation for Elder Oaks' talk on the two lines of communication:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng

I can only imagine what it's going to be like when they try to decide where their temple should be built, who should own the land, and who will control the temple once its built.

Yes, absolutely. This is the reason they are now going off the rails, from even what they believed before. For all their denials, Snuffer has been their prophet and the driving force behind their leaving the church to set up their own non-church. He's removed himself from this process and they are all left to themselves and to 'walk in their own ways' and so they are floundering. If their non=church is to survive, there will have to be a strong=man to rise up and take control. To me, it's obvious they are deceived and it's amazing how the members themselves can't see it. Considering the mainstream teachings this non-church was based on, they should be able to see they are in a false break off sect.
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby AI2.0 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:45 am

marc wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:51 pm
It's my understanding that all those who have participated in the covenant are required (and thus authorized) by the Lord to write a statement of principles upon which they all agree, and without the involvement of a "strongman" as Denver Snuffer put it often, to "lead" the effort. They are thus left to wrestle with the principle of becoming one heart in their attempt to mutually agree upon a statement, which they can unanimously present it to the Lord.
But Marc, consider the traditions they came from and before denouncing it, claimed was the Lord's only true church on earth. There is not a tradition of handing over to the congregants an assignment to write what will essentially be seen a scripture. The teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ would dispute that this would be how it should be done. The Lord works through his prophets and his priesthood, the Lord would never call a prophet to lead in a dispensation and then insist that he remove himself from the process. Truly, I don't care if the Remnant wants to do this, but they need to stop kidding themselves that they are the purists in this, they are going off following after their own ways, being tossed to and fro, by every wind of doctrine that suits each individual's fancy. Imagine if someone like John Doe was involved--he'd infect their writings with his apostate beliefs in soul bonding and spiritual promiscuity.
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby silk » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:55 am

AI2.0 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:38 am
silk wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:37 am
I think it's instructive to see how they try to function without authorized leadership. Denver Snuffer was apparently forbidden to assist with the Guide and Standard, so they're left to themselves.

One big problem is that they can only receive revelation as individuals. Then they must try to persuade the other 400+ people as to why revelation they received for themselves should be binding on everyone else.

The result of this has been that most people are either quoting scriptures, Denver Snuffer, or a combination of the two as their offering. It's a far cry from D&C 20 (what they seek to replace). That was a revelation straight from God.

It gives me even more appreciation for Elder Oaks' talk on the two lines of communication:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng

I can only imagine what it's going to be like when they try to decide where their temple should be built, who should own the land, and who will control the temple once its built.

Yes, absolutely. This is the reason they are now going off the rails, from even what they believed before. For all their denials, Snuffer has been their prophet and the driving force behind their leaving the church to set up their own non-church. He's removed himself from this process and they are all left to themselves and to 'walk in their own ways' and so they are floundering. If their non=church is to survive, there will have to be a strong=man to rise up and take control. To me, it's obvious they are deceived and it's amazing how the members themselves can't see it. Considering the mainstream teachings this non-church was based on, they should be able to see they are in a false break off sect.
From what I've read about the Remnant, it seems that their concept of leadership is different from that of the LDS church (or Christ's church during his life, or the Nephite church after Christ visited, or the church under Alma the Elder, etc.).

As far as I can tell, they believe that organized leadership is not a godly principle, and they seek to eliminate it entirely. They see Denver Snuffer's guidance as a temporary help to bring them to Christ. At that point, they won't need a prophet anymore, because everyone will be learning directly from the Savior himself. That is their concept of Zion. They'll allow for temporary committees and such, but no priesthood offices, and definitely no hierarchy where one person receives revelation for the whole.

That's why, during this Guide and Standard process, people like Log argue that now is the time to break the tether and not canonize Denver Snuffer's words as part of it. They appreciate his help so far but feel they're ready to stand on their own, so to speak.

Personally, I think it's a misunderstanding of D&C 121. Instead of "Hence many are called, but few are chosen" they seem to read it as "Hence many are called but none are chosen". While I agree that the principle of leadership is difficult and many fail to be Christ-like leaders, the scriptures teach that it is a vital part of the Lord's people. Even Enoch, after the Lord came and dwelt with them (Moses 7:16), "continued his preaching in righteousness unto the people of God." (Moses 7:19)

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Thinker » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:16 am

Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:15 pm
LdsMarco wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:50 pm
Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:38 pm
LdsMarco wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:24 pm
HA! This makes me laugh... how are the lamanites to blossom if they do not have the priesthood? LOL

Get over it .... you snufferites have been deceived. Repent!
I'm not a snufferite.

The laminates are blacks? I thought they were from Central America if you believe in the Meso-American BOM, or Native Americans if you believe in the Great Lakes BOM. Oops another contradiction in Mormonism.
I'm a Lamanite. The Lamanites are all over the place. Let's not get off topic. Point is, You're wrong about all what you have said. Clearly, you are a Snufferite. At least undercover. If not, you're an apostate/anti
The point is there are many contradictions between scriptures, church history, and mormon beliefs. We are supposed to obey the word of wisdom except for the restaurants that sale alcohol in the Church owned city creek mall, oops there I go again with another contradiction.
I know I’ve sometimes labeled a unique individual child of God as if their entire identity is based on a superficial label of a group, but I still cringe when I see it. Spiritually speaking - we each are not so different in God’s eyes - who is “no respector of persons” and looks on the heart not appearance.

Personally despite all of the gossip about snuffer, I still have not researched him because I simply don’t have a desire for a guru. Obviously we have a president and church leaders & I believe in prophecy but I do not believe in a single person as being a prophetic spokesperson for God. We each receieve revelation in our own sphere of responsibility. To hand over one’s responsibility to another is wrong, no matter how worshiped that person is.

Another thought... In highest dimensions (which we probably might only get subtle glimpses, if that, in this life) maybe truth/God is unchanging in the sense that all can be seen and known simultaneously. But as it is, God is a god of life - not death. Life implies change - movement. Death implies no change - no movement. However that does not negate natural and spiritual laws.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Onsdag » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:35 pm

Serious question: Did Denver Snuffer ever hold Priesthood keys? Was he ever ordained as president of a deacon's, teacher's, or elder's quorum? How about a bishop, or the president of a branch, stake, or mission? Was he ever ordained as a temple president, or the president of a quorum of 70? Was he ever ordained an apostle of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? If the answer to these questions is no then Denver Snuffer never held keys and therefore he never had keys to be taken away. If the answer is yes to any of these then he only ever held keys for the office to which he was called and set apart for, and only within a very specific and limited jurisdiction, for the length of his calling. He certainly could not have 'wrested' Priesthood keys from others, as has been claimed.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby lemuel » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:16 pm

LdsMarco wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:36 pm
Durzan wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:42 pm
Marco, what exactly are you trying to point out here?

For a surety, this scripture first and foremost is talking about Joseph Smith... after that, we can argue all day about how it applies to the modern day. It could be a general rule for Prophets, or it could be specific to Joseph.

Who really knows? All I know is that Thomas S. Monson is the current prophet here on the earth.
Uuuum.. it applies today. It is a law and it stands forever! God is an unchanging God, remember? It is plain to understand. We are also commanded to apply all scriptures for our benefit and learning. Don't get it confused as history.

The Prophet Joseph explained in the winter of 1832-33 that "no true angel from God will ever come to ordain any man, because they have once been sent to establish the priesthood by ordaining me thereunto; and the priesthood being once established on earth, with [the] power to ordain others, no heavenly messenger will ever come to interfere with that power by ordaining any more. ... You may therefore know, from this time forward, that if any man comes to you professing to be ordained by an angel, he is either a liar or has been imposed upon in consequence of transgression by an angel of the devil, for this priesthood shall never be taken from this church."

Source: Orson Hyde, 1846. https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and ... 5?lang=eng
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby sushi_chef » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:45 pm

writing scriptures?!?!

"6 And it shall be given thee in the very moment what thou shalt speak and write, and they shall hear it, or I will send unto them a cursing instead of a blessing.
" (dc 24)

"6 Now, seek ye out of the Book of Commandments, even the least that is among them, and appoint him that is the most wise among you;
7 Or, if there be any among you that shall make one like unto it, then ye are justified in saying that ye do not know that they are true;
8 But if ye cannot make one like unto it, ye are under condemnation if ye do not bear record that they are true.
9 For ye know that there is no unrighteousness in them, and that which is righteous cometh down from above, from the Father of lights.
10 And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I amnot with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.
11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.
12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.
13 Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected.
" (67)
:arrow:

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby AI2.0 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:10 pm

silk wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:55 am
AI2.0 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:38 am
silk wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:37 am
I think it's instructive to see how they try to function without authorized leadership. Denver Snuffer was apparently forbidden to assist with the Guide and Standard, so they're left to themselves.

One big problem is that they can only receive revelation as individuals. Then they must try to persuade the other 400+ people as to why revelation they received for themselves should be binding on everyone else.

The result of this has been that most people are either quoting scriptures, Denver Snuffer, or a combination of the two as their offering. It's a far cry from D&C 20 (what they seek to replace). That was a revelation straight from God.

It gives me even more appreciation for Elder Oaks' talk on the two lines of communication:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng

I can only imagine what it's going to be like when they try to decide where their temple should be built, who should own the land, and who will control the temple once its built.

Yes, absolutely. This is the reason they are now going off the rails, from even what they believed before. For all their denials, Snuffer has been their prophet and the driving force behind their leaving the church to set up their own non-church. He's removed himself from this process and they are all left to themselves and to 'walk in their own ways' and so they are floundering. If their non=church is to survive, there will have to be a strong=man to rise up and take control. To me, it's obvious they are deceived and it's amazing how the members themselves can't see it. Considering the mainstream teachings this non-church was based on, they should be able to see they are in a false break off sect.
From what I've read about the Remnant, it seems that their concept of leadership is different from that of the LDS church (or Christ's church during his life, or the Nephite church after Christ visited, or the church under Alma the Elder, etc.).

As far as I can tell, they believe that organized leadership is not a godly principle, and they seek to eliminate it entirely. They see Denver Snuffer's guidance as a temporary help to bring them to Christ. At that point, they won't need a prophet anymore, because everyone will be learning directly from the Savior himself. That is their concept of Zion. They'll allow for temporary committees and such, but no priesthood offices, and definitely no hierarchy where one person receives revelation for the whole.

That's why, during this Guide and Standard process, people like Log argue that now is the time to break the tether and not canonize Denver Snuffer's words as part of it. They appreciate his help so far but feel they're ready to stand on their own, so to speak.

Personally, I think it's a misunderstanding of D&C 121. Instead of "Hence many are called, but few are chosen" they seem to read it as "Hence many are called but none are chosen". While I agree that the principle of leadership is difficult and many fail to be Christ-like leaders, the scriptures teach that it is a vital part of the Lord's people. Even Enoch, after the Lord came and dwelt with them (Moses 7:16), "continued his preaching in righteousness unto the people of God." (Moses 7:19)
They think that following a prophet is following the 'arm of flesh'. Yet, the irony is that they followed Snuffer as if he was a prophet and followed him right out the church! You can't fix that by then throwing out the 'prophet' and still maintain any credibility. How they got from Bible/Book of Mormon teachings of the need for authority/priesthood and a 'one true church' to fully rejecting Prophets, I don't know, but that's what they've done. IMO, they are misinterpreting and misunderstanding many scriptures as they move farther and farther away from truth as they create their man made religion, built on their own philosophies--and now, their own uninspired 'scriptures'. I still find this such an incredible development from where they started out before Snuffer was excommunicated.
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby marc » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:01 pm

AI2.0 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:45 am
marc wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:51 pm
It's my understanding that all those who have participated in the covenant are required (and thus authorized) by the Lord to write a statement of principles upon which they all agree, and without the involvement of a "strongman" as Denver Snuffer put it often, to "lead" the effort. They are thus left to wrestle with the principle of becoming one heart in their attempt to mutually agree upon a statement, which they can unanimously present it to the Lord.
But Marc, consider the traditions they came from and before denouncing it, claimed was the Lord's only true church on earth. There is not a tradition of handing over to the congregants an assignment to write what will essentially be seen a scripture. The teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ would dispute that this would be how it should be done. The Lord works through his prophets and his priesthood, the Lord would never call a prophet to lead in a dispensation and then insist that he remove himself from the process. Truly, I don't care if the Remnant wants to do this, but they need to stop kidding themselves that they are the purists in this, they are going off following after their own ways, being tossed to and fro, by every wind of doctrine that suits each individual's fancy. Imagine if someone like John Doe was involved--he'd infect their writings with his apostate beliefs in soul bonding and spiritual promiscuity.
Honestly, I don't lose any sleep over it. None of us is any better off than any other so long as we all remain unredeemed in our wicked and fallen state as Jesus Christ declared in Ether 4 (as I have expounded on another topic). True church, no true church, keys, no keys. None of that vindicates anyone. Only Jesus Christ vindicates you and me. And I have not yet rent the veil of unbelief so I'm not going to judge anyone. And even if and when I rend the veil and am redeemed, that won't change the way I feel about everyone else. I'm just going to keep loving everyone. That pretty much sums it up for me.
35...I know by this thing which thou hast said, that if the Gentiles have not charity...thou wilt prove them, and take away their talent, yea, even that which they have received, and give unto them who shall have more abundantly.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby jdt » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:23 pm

AI2.0 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:45 am
But Marc, consider the traditions they came from and before denouncing it, claimed was the Lord's only true church on earth. There is not a tradition of handing over to the congregants an assignment to write what will essentially be seen a scripture. The teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ would dispute that this would be how it should be done. The Lord works through his prophets and his priesthood, the Lord would never call a prophet to lead in a dispensation and then insist that he remove himself from the process. Truly, I don't care if the Remnant wants to do this, but they need to stop kidding themselves that they are the purists in this, they are going off following after their own ways, being tossed to and fro, by every wind of doctrine that suits each individual's fancy. Imagine if someone like John Doe was involved--he'd infect their writings with his apostate beliefs in soul bonding and spiritual promiscuity.
Couple thoughts:
1. This is not that dissimilar from Lehi asking his Sons to go and get the plates (he got the revelation but did none of the work)
2. This is practically identical to what happened during the Council of 50 and Joseph asking a committee to draft a constitution for the Kingdom (I know many want to ignore the Council, but it is has so many instructive moments like this).
3. The irony of your statement about John Doe and spiritual promiscuity is startling. History has shown it is far easier to use a strongman and claims of keys than it is to persuade an entire body to the point of mutual agreement. The irony of course is that Brigham actually did "infect with his apostate beliefs in polygamy (soul bonding and spiritual promiscuity)" to the point that it was widely and openly practiced and remains to this day the thing most associated with Mormonism. If only he would have had to stick to persuasion to the point achieving mutual agreement... in that case it would have just been his own "wind of doctrine that suits his individual fancy" instead of the doctrine of the church that all must agree with or be shown the door.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby marc » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:40 pm

Yeah, there are other examples, one of which is:
On November 1, 1831, the Prophet Joseph Smith convened a special conference of 10 elders in Hiram, Ohio, to discuss the collection and publication of the revelations that he had thus far received. The proposed publication would give Church members access to the Lord’s revelations and would stand as a testimony to all the world that God once again had begun to reveal His mind and will to His children on earth.

During the conference the attendees decided to print 10,000 copies of the compiled revelations (this number was later reduced to 3,000 copies) in a single volume that would be titled the Book of Commandments. A committee of elders was asked to write a preface for the publication. When the committee presented its draft of the preface, the assembled group rejected the attempt and asked the Prophet to petition the Lord for direction. “After [Joseph Smith] and the elders bowed in prayer, [Joseph], who was ‘sitting by a window,’ dictated the preface ‘by the Spirit,’ while [Sidney] Rigdon served as scribe. ‘Joseph would deliver a few sentences and Sidney would write them down,’ [recalled William E. McLellin], ‘then read them aloud, and if correct, then Joseph would proceed and deliver more’” (in The Joseph Smith Papers, Documents, Volume 2, July 1831–January 1833, 104). This revelation was published as the preface to the 1833 Book of Commandments and is now section 1 of our present-day Doctrine and Covenants.
In the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, we read that Joseph Smith taught the Relief Society that the church was threatened because the people were blindly following the prophet rather than being independent in their thinking:
“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel–said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church–that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls–applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints–said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall–that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds…”
TPJS p.237
Anyway, this is all old news. What's the point of the church being true if we cannot all be one heart and one mind peaceable followers of Christ rather than continually engaging in jarrings and contentions? That is not what it takes to be redeemed (become Zion). So for all those who keep tabs on this remnant or that remnant group to judge them, point out their errors, or for whatever reason, just keep in mind that Jesus Christ loves them as much as He loves you and me and desires to redeem them just as much as you and me. And whoever can manage to become one heart and one mind may be those who the Lord gathers first. After all, it is the lofty branches of the olive tree, which are barren and fruitless that the Lord cuts down and bundles up for the fire while those few branches that produce equal fruit are gathered by the few servants wherever they may be. Maybe this "Light the world" effort now underway may jump start such an effort. Time will tell.
Jacob 5:74 And thus they labored, with all diligence, according to the commandments of the Lord of the vineyard, even until the bad had been cast away out of the vineyard, and the Lord had preserved unto himself that the trees had become again the natural fruit; and they became like unto one body; and the fruits were equal; and the Lord of the vineyard had preserved unto himself the natural fruit, which was most precious unto him from the beginning.

75 And it came to pass that when the Lord of the vineyard saw that his fruit was good, and that his vineyard was no more corrupt, he called up his servants, and said unto them: Behold, for this last time have we nourished my vineyard; and thou beholdest that I have done according to my will; and I have preserved the natural fruit, that it is good, even like as it was in the beginning. And blessed art thou; for because ye have been diligent in laboring with me in my vineyard, and have kept my commandments, and have brought unto me again the natural fruit, that my vineyard is no more corrupted, and the bad is cast away, behold ye shall have joy with me because of the fruit of my vineyard.
35...I know by this thing which thou hast said, that if the Gentiles have not charity...thou wilt prove them, and take away their talent, yea, even that which they have received, and give unto them who shall have more abundantly.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby AI2.0 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:21 am

My responsed in blue:
marc wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:40 pm
Yeah, there are other examples, one of which is:
On November 1, 1831, the Prophet Joseph Smith convened a special conference of 10 elders in Hiram, Ohio, to discuss the collection and publication of the revelations that he had thus far received. The proposed publication would give Church members access to the Lord’s revelations and would stand as a testimony to all the world that God once again had begun to reveal His mind and will to His children on earth.

During the conference the attendees decided to print 10,000 copies of the compiled revelations (this number was later reduced to 3,000 copies) in a single volume that would be titled the Book of Commandments. A committee of elders was asked to write a preface for the publication. When the committee presented its draft of the preface, the assembled group rejected the attempt and asked the Prophet to petition the Lord for direction. “After [Joseph Smith] and the elders bowed in prayer, [Joseph], who was ‘sitting by a window,’ dictated the preface ‘by the Spirit,’ while [Sidney] Rigdon served as scribe. ‘Joseph would deliver a few sentences and Sidney would write them down,’ [recalled William E. McLellin], ‘then read them aloud, and if correct, then Joseph would proceed and deliver more’” (in The Joseph Smith Papers, Documents, Volume 2, July 1831–January 1833, 104). This revelation was published as the preface to the 1833 Book of Commandments and is now section 1 of our present-day Doctrine and Covenants.
How does this contradict what I said? It supports what I said. The committee was asked to write a preface--not the revelations. And what they came up with was rejected. Joseph had to write it. This supports the idea that if Denver Snuffer IS the head of this movement and God approves, then HE is the one who should be receiving revelation for the group and directing the group to do some things, but it's completely out of character for God to forbid his chosen prophet/servant from receiving meaningful revelation (such as this document they are working on) for the group.
In the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, we read that Joseph Smith taught the Relief Society that the church was threatened because the people were blindly following the prophet rather than being independent in their thinking:No one disagrees with this. People do need to receive revelation, but they are NOT the stewards who receive revelation for the whole church. This is a basic tenet of the LDS faith and you'd think that any offshoots or 'corrections' would still keep this pattern, as it is very ingrained in our scriptures and teachings.
“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel–said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church–that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls–applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints–said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall–that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds…”
TPJS p.237
Anyway, this is all old news. What's the point of the church being true if we cannot all be one heart and one mind peaceable followers of Christ rather than continually engaging in jarrings and contentions? That is not what it takes to be redeemed (become Zion). So for all those who keep tabs on this remnant or that remnant group to judge them, point out their errors, or for whatever reason, just keep in mind that Jesus Christ loves them as much as He loves you and me and desires to redeem them just as much as you and me. And whoever can manage to become one heart and one mind may be those who the Lord gathers first. After all, it is the lofty branches of the olive tree, which are barren and fruitless that the Lord cuts down and bundles up for the fire while those few branches that produce equal fruit are gathered by the few servants wherever they may be. Maybe this "Light the world" effort now underway may jump start such an effort. Time will tell.'Time will tell' and it's all ready telling. They are falling apart! Their movement is not growing, it's going to remain static with the small group of followers who will doggedly remain with him, even though it's clear he's not what they thought he was. Contention comes from dissension, as we've seen many many examples of in the Book of Mormon. Let's not forget who started the contention by dissenting. The Remnant and Denver Snuffer.
Jacob 5:74 And thus they labored, with all diligence, according to the commandments of the Lord of the vineyard, even until the bad had been cast away out of the vineyard, and the Lord had preserved unto himself that the trees had become again the natural fruit; and they became like unto one body; and the fruits were equal; and the Lord of the vineyard had preserved unto himself the natural fruit, which was most precious unto him from the beginning.

75 And it came to pass that when the Lord of the vineyard saw that his fruit was good, and that his vineyard was no more corrupt, he called up his servants, and said unto them: Behold, for this last time have we nourished my vineyard; and thou beholdest that I have done according to my will; and I have preserved the natural fruit, that it is good, even like as it was in the beginning. And blessed art thou; for because ye have been diligent in laboring with me in my vineyard, and have kept my commandments, and have brought unto me again the natural fruit, that my vineyard is no more corrupted, and the bad is cast away, behold ye shall have joy with me because of the fruit of my vineyard.
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby marc » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:00 pm

The point was made with Joseph quoting Ezekiel thus the saints being darkened in their minds. So the remnants seem like they're falling apart, etc. Like I said, I'm not losing any sleep over it. I merely made an observation. If the remnants become darkened in their minds, then they, like the saints, will suffer the same blindness and unbelief and will suffer the same fate. To reiterate, none of us is any better off than any other, being on this dark side of the veil of unbelief. Unless you've parted the veil as the bro of Jared, you're just as fallen as I am and as any of the remnant folks.
35...I know by this thing which thou hast said, that if the Gentiles have not charity...thou wilt prove them, and take away their talent, yea, even that which they have received, and give unto them who shall have more abundantly.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby AI2.0 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:21 pm

marc wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:00 pm
The point was made with Joseph quoting Ezekiel thus the saints being darkened in their minds. So the remnants seem like they're falling apart, etc. Like I said, I'm not losing any sleep over it. I merely made an observation. If the remnants become darkened in their minds, then they, like the saints, will suffer the same blindness and unbelief and will suffer the same fate. Like I said, none of us is any better off than any other being on this dark side of the veil of unbelief. Unless you've parted the veil as the bro of Jared, you're just as fallen as I am and as any of the remnant folks.
Yes, we're all 'fallen'--we are in a fallen state and have been since Adam fell, no question. That's what the atonement is for.

However, I have to disagree; some of us ARE better off. If we have a testimony of the true gospel of Jesus Christ and are obedient in living the commandments we've been given, are doing our best to follow the Savior's example in loving and serving our fellowmen--those who do this ARE better off. Life is better, there is joy and peace and love in the lives of the humble followers of Christ...and they don't have to have seen Jesus in the flesh to have the Love of God in their lives.
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Arenera » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:53 pm

AI2.0 wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:21 pm
marc wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:00 pm
The point was made with Joseph quoting Ezekiel thus the saints being darkened in their minds. So the remnants seem like they're falling apart, etc. Like I said, I'm not losing any sleep over it. I merely made an observation. If the remnants become darkened in their minds, then they, like the saints, will suffer the same blindness and unbelief and will suffer the same fate. Like I said, none of us is any better off than any other being on this dark side of the veil of unbelief. Unless you've parted the veil as the bro of Jared, you're just as fallen as I am and as any of the remnant folks.
Yes, we're all 'fallen'--we are in a fallen state and have been since Adam fell, no question. That's what the atonement is for.

However, I have to disagree; some of us ARE better off. If we have a testimony of the true gospel of Jesus Christ and are obedient in living the commandments we've been given, are doing our best to follow the Savior's example in loving and serving our fellowmen--those who do this ARE better off. Life is better, there is joy and peace and love in the lives of the humble followers of Christ...and they don't have to have seen Jesus in the flesh to have the Love of God in their lives.
Yes, the New and Everlasting Covenant that each of us make at baptism, Christ justifies us because He was perfect, the gift of the Holy Ghost sanctifies us. If we stay within that covenant we will be saved and go to the Celestial Kingdom.
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