Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

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inquirringmind
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Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby inquirringmind » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:02 pm

It would seem that the "priesthood keys" that were taken from the leadership of the LDS church when they "wrongfully" disfellowshipped Denver Snuffed have now been taken from him.
Monday, December 4, 2017
Many Are Called, but Few Are Chosen
The Lord will have a people who hold his word inviolable.
LDS D&C 98:14-15 I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy. For if ye will not abide in my covenant ye are not worthy of me.
The word "require" is synonymous with "command" in the context in which the Lord spoke of the G&S (A&C, p. 8).
JST Matthew 16:27 Break not my commandments for to save your lives; for whosoever will save his life in this world, shall lose it in the world to come.
A Word on Mutual Agreement

The Lord said: "I require a statement of principles to be adopted by the mutual agreement of my people, for if you cannot do so you will be unable to accomplish other works that I will require at your hands" (A&C, p. 8).

The phrase mutual agreement means that all parties agree. If one of the parties dissents from a proposal, then the parties do not have mutual agreement on that proposal. Another way of saying this is that the parties do not agree to the proposal.

The Lord requires us, as a people, to write a G&S and adopt it by mutual agreement. If even one party to the covenant dissents from a proposed G&S, then that proposal cannot be adopted because it is not mutually agreed to. Mutual agreement means that the majority cannot impose upon the minority that which the minority does not agree to, and therefore all must discuss in plain humility as equals. Only when all parties mutually agree can the body move upon any proposal.

The mutual agreement requirement is freedom from the tyranny of the majority, and a check against mass error. At least, that is what would happen if the Lord's requirement were honored.

The Scripture and G&S Committees have announced that they will not hold the Lord's requirement for mutual agreement inviolable, but have instead dictated to the body that the G&S shall be adopted by "the voice of the people," which is another name for "majority rules." Now there is no need to persuade dissenters, or be persuaded by dissenters, so long as a faction has a majority of votes. Thus we now have reintroduced the tyranny of the majority, and removed the Lord's check upon mass error.

Instead of letting the Lord control the process by the requirements he has set forth in the A&C, the Scripture and G&S Committees have declared they shall control the process of adopting a G&S and have usurped authority to declare certain G&S proposals unacceptable and remove the ability of the body to adopt them. Among these G&S proposals which the Committees have deprived the people the opportunity of accepting is the gospel of Jesus Christ, his rock and his salvation.

Along with bringing the tyranny of the majority upon us and removing the Lord's check upon mass error, we are rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ as our guide and standard as well. All this is due to those in high places among us, the Scripture and G&S Committees, who have taken control of the G&S process, usurped authority, and perverted the requirement of the Lord.

When Denver Snuffer was excommunicated, he had this to say:
The Church has Doctrine and Covenants 121, verses 36 to 40, to warn it about abusing His authority. There is an "amen" or end to authority when control, compulsion, and dominion are exercised in any degree of unrighteousness. Therefore, when using authority, great care must be taken. In any case, the church was careless. Therefore, those involved, are now left to kick against the pricks, to persecute the Saints and to fight against God.
Section 121 is a warning to church leaders. It is addressing the powerful, not the powerless. It is addressing those who occupy the seats of authority over others. Only those who claim the right to control, compel, and exercise dominion, are warned against persecuting the saints, who believe the religion and practice it as I did from the time of my conversion. My excommunication was an abuse of authority. Therefore, as soon as the decision was made, the Lord terminated the priesthood authority of the stake presidency and every member of the High Council who sustained this decision, which was unanimous. Thereafter, I appealed to the First Presidency, outlining the involvement of the 12 and the 70. The appeal gave notice to them all. The appeal was summarily denied.
Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in casting me out of the church. At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood. They have not practiced what He requires. The Lord has brought about His purposes. This has been in His heart all along. He has chosen to use small means to accomplish it, but He always uses the smallest of means to fulfill His purposes.
None of this was my doing. The Lord's strange act, was not, could not, be planned by me. Was not, could not, have been controlled by me. It was not anticipated by me, or even understood by me, until after the Lord had accomplished His will, and made it apparent to me on the evening of May 1, 2014. He alone has done this. He is the author of all of this.
Now, the G&S and Scripture Committees are treading the same path as the authorities of the Church. They, like the Church authorities before them, are not practicing what the Lord requires, and they are forcibly preventing the body from practicing what the Lord requires.

If the G&S and Scripture Committees do what they say they are going to do, then the body cannot be saved.

Joseph Smith taught the following.
I ... spoke to the people, showing them that to get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it. (Feb. 21, 1844.) DHC 6:223.
Thus, the body, not being able to do all that God commands due to the disobedience of those in high places among us, cannot be saved.

Only as individuals who are faithful to all things the Lord commands and requires will any from the body be able to be saved.
It is not enough to receive my covenant, but you must also abide it. And all who abide it, whether on this land or any other land, will be mine and I will watch over them and protect them in the day of harvest, and gather them in as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. I will number you among the remnant of Jacob, no longer outcasts, and you will inherit the promises of Israel. You shall be my people and I will be your God and the sword will not devour you. And unto those who will receive will more be given until they know the mysteries of God in full (A&C, p. 7).
May there be any faithful found among us at the end of all this.
http://logscabin.blogspot.com/2017/12/m ... n.html?m=1

Any thoughts?

Does this make Denver a false prophet or a fallen prophet?
Last edited by inquirringmind on Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mcusick
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby mcusick » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:09 pm

inquirringmind wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:02 pm

Any thoughts?
I think there is a reason I have LDSFF bookmarked in my "Snuffer Related" folder.

simpleton
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby simpleton » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:39 am

I sure get a kick out of Denver's claim of the " exercising of unrighteous dominion" practiced upon his poor soul in his excommunication from the church, as if ( according to his view) he is the only one ever to be excommunicated in the 187 plus some odd years of church history to be excommunicated unrighteously...
Does he seriously think he is the first one and only that was excommunicated " unrighteously " in all those years? And therefore AMEN to the priesthood of the whole church???? That is quite an astounding claim in my opinion, but then who am I, nobody really....

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby gardener4life » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:49 am

Well I don't have anything against this guy. I hope things work out for him.

But he was never called by God, or sustained in a priesthood meeting as having a specific 'calling' to preach to the world. When you get called to any significant calling you have to be sustained in front of a body of the priesthood. You can't sustain 'yourself' by your own self as a priesthood body. Also one of the biggest signs of a false authority is rebellion against real authority figures. All real prophets and faithful people were followers first and demonstrate faith by following and not taking upon themselves their own ideas. They are willing to follow even when they don't know why. (Remember Adam offered up sacrifice unto the Lord and the angel asked him why and he said I don't know except I was commanded too.)

Faith, and love, having the spirit, and obedience are also more important than arguing doctrine or the ideas of the world. People like Sherem and Korihor taught what was pleasing to the world. They taught to rebel and seek praise of the world. People like King Benjamin and Alma taught sacrifice and even risking poverty to follow what difficult things but relied on the Spirit of the Lord to sustain them.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Juliet » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:38 am

I am pretty sure that God allows Fathers in their patriarchal role and as priesthood holders to make mistakes. Perhaps in the mistake, the Priesthood is not able to access the powers of Heaven, but, I don't think the Priesthood is ever permanently disabled once you have had laying on of hands and are striving to do what is right.

Nevertheless, it is important for all of us to stand up for what we believe is right and to stand against abuse of authority. If my husband abuses his authority and treats me or my children with disrespect, I have every right to defend myself against that tyranny and demand respect. (Hypothetical example, my husband treats me and my kids very well).

Surely God is understanding and all-knowing enough to be able to take each individual's case and see it from his point of view. When every one is doing their best and mistakes are made, Jesus made atonement to equal the balances in these types of cases.

We get to love each other and see each other as doing what they believe is the best thing that they should do.

If there was only 1 cause worth fighting for, there would be no factions and there would be no variation. Even between my husband and I, we have differences of opinion. Does that mean one or the other of us is inspired of the devil? No, it means we are different. And we get the opportunity to love each other and all of our differences.

God does't need to favor one of us over the other based on how legally right one of us is, but He can respect our free will to be in or out of the church, and to guide us individually as we seek Him.

Being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and having Jesus as a friend are 2 different things. Everyone has the light of Christ and every one has the right to the companionship of Jesus Christ no matter what. And I don't think Jesus goes around telling them they ought to be members of His church. I think He lets people do what they want. If someone asks Him, Hey, what church should I join? Then, that is when they run into missionaries from our church. It is the true Church, but Jesus is an individual contractor, if that makes sense. Who are we as members to judge those who decide to walk out of the church? I'd rather someone walk out of the political 3 d earth bound telestial system then to walk away from their friendship with Jesus. And because Jesus is respectful and not controlling, He is not going to guilt anyone for leaving.

As in my case, when I had my doubts about the church, I prayed for guidance and God told me to stay in the church. Had I not asked, I would not have received that answer. Had I left the church, God would still be my friend, and someone to council with.

I know as a church we put a huge value on obedience to commandments and gospel ordinances. But Jesus loves us wether we choose to obey or not. May we learn to love each other as much as Jesus loves us.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Arenera » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:23 am

Denver lost his priesthood when he was excommunicated because he had been exercising unrighteous dominion in going against the Church and leaders.

Log seems to be at odds with the committees, probably because they didn't accept proposals from Log.

How could Denver's church be successful? There is no direction from Christ. They have no apostles. They have committees. And also John Doe...
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Vision » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:19 am

gardener4life wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:49 am
Well I don't have anything against this guy. I hope things work out for him.

But he was never called by God, or sustained in a priesthood meeting as having a specific 'calling' to preach to the world.
It seems to me that Joseph Smith was called of God as an individual and begin the work without a sustaining vote of a priesthood body. Alma did not receive a heavenly calling, nor was he sustained by a priesthood body when he fled King Noah's court and began a church. I'm not saying Snuffer is a prophet but we should be careful in what we say when there are examples contrary to the above pattern.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby stillwater » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:55 pm

It would seem that the "priesthood keys" that were taken from the leadership of the LDS church when they "wrongfully" disfellowshipped Denver Snuffed have now been taken from him.
I can't see anything in the post you quoted that leads to this conclusion. Can you explain your reasoning? Is Denver a member of the G&S committee?
-Bob

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby EmmaLee » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:06 pm

Does this make Denver a false prophet or a fallen prophet?
He's always been a false prophet.
Arguing with a fool only proves there are two.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Rand » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:27 pm

Juliet wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:38 am

I know as a church we put a huge value on obedience to commandments and gospel ordinances. But Jesus loves us wether we choose to obey or not. May we learn to love each other as much as Jesus loves us.
God's love for us is not redemptive. It is our love for him that redeems us. God loves perfectly, but, He is also perfectly just. He said, "If YOU love ME, keep my commandments."
He came into the world to do the will of the Father. It is His love for His Father that is His grand motivation, His cause, that which drove him through the gauntlet of Gethsemane. It was not His love for us. He said, Father, if it be possible.. nevertheless... thy will be done. He did what he did out of His perfect love and obedience to the Father. He requests, even demands the same of us. Sure, He loves us even if we willfully abuse our covenants and testimony by knowingly sinning. But that love will not redeem us beyond the resurrection. It is our obedience to Him and the Father, our love for Him and the Father that empowers Him to apply the atonement in us; to purify, sanctify, justify and redeem our full potential.

Our love for God must transcend our love for our fellow men. The Saviors did. We must follow that example. We must come to love each other, but that does not do the recipient any real tangible good. It is their love for others that does them good. It is our love of God that draws us to Him to be cleansed. A subset of that love is our ability to love others as well. But, if we want to love others so much that we will give them access to things they are not worthy of, our love is damning them, not saving or serving them. If our love facilities their propensity to sin, we are accessories to the fact. We will be held guilty too. Even if we loved them, that love will not redeem them, nor us, if our so called love for them drew us to become codependent in their sinful state.
Forgive me if this seems harsh or too pointed. I don't mean it that way.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby LdsMarco » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:58 pm

False Prophet. False Teacher. False False False. It was revealed to me in the temple that this guy represents the tree of knowledge.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Arenera » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:32 pm

stillwater wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:55 pm
It would seem that the "priesthood keys" that were taken from the leadership of the LDS church when they "wrongfully" disfellowshipped Denver Snuffed have now been taken from him.
I can't see anything in the post you quoted that leads to this conclusion. Can you explain your reasoning? Is Denver a member of the G&S committee?
It's a Log posting. However, DS exerts influence on the committees.
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Juliet » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:47 pm

Rand wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:27 pm
Juliet wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:38 am

I know as a church we put a huge value on obedience to commandments and gospel ordinances. But Jesus loves us wether we choose to obey or not. May we learn to love each other as much as Jesus loves us.
God's love for us is not redemptive. It is our love for him that redeems us. God loves perfectly, but, He is also perfectly just. He said, "If YOU love ME, keep my commandments."
He came into the world to do the will of the Father. It is His love for His Father that is His grand motivation, His cause, that which drove him through the gauntlet of Gethsemane. It was not His love for us. He said, Father, if it be possible.. nevertheless... thy will be done. He did what he did out of His perfect love and obedience to the Father. He requests, even demands the same of us. Sure, He loves us even if we willfully abuse our covenants and testimony by knowingly sinning. But that love will not redeem us beyond the resurrection. It is our obedience to Him and the Father, our love for Him and the Father that empowers Him to apply the atonement in us; to purify, sanctify, justify and redeem our full potential.

Our love for God must transcend our love for our fellow men. The Saviors did. We must follow that example. We must come to love each other, but that does not do the recipient any real tangible good. It is their love for others that does them good. It is our love of God that draws us to Him to be cleansed. A subset of that love is our ability to love others as well. But, if we want to love others so much that we will give them access to things they are not worthy of, our love is damning them, not saving or serving them. If our love facilities their propensity to sin, we are accessories to the fact. We will be held guilty too. Even if we loved them, that love will not redeem them, nor us, if our so called love for them drew us to become codependent in their sinful state.
Forgive me if this seems harsh or too pointed. I don't mean it that way.
I think your vantage point is that of a father who wants to do everything to judge righteously and set a correct standard of living so your "children" or followers will make the best possible choices. My vantage point is on the side of sympathy and mercy, more like a mother, who understands some children will learn to walk before others will, and they are loved just the same.

I like what you say, but who is the judge on whether or not someone is willfully rebelling verse seeking the truth with all their might? We are in a place of probation right now where we do get tempted and taken off the path. So, repentance is huge. It is what allows us to receive more blessings and more of God's light. But it isn't my job to hold other people to a certain standard of behavior and judge them for not being willing to receive blessings I think they ought to be readying to receive. A relationship with Jesus Christ is allowed in the terrestrial kingdom. That may be what some people are happy with receiving. A lot of us right now are not even celestial material. If someone has already entered the terrestrial kingdom and communes with Jesus, then good for them. If they haven't kept covenants to allow them to move to the celestial kingdom, then that is their choice.

I think it is very true that it is not wise to allow love or in the name of love become lenient or facilitate the sin of another. However, the fact of our mortal existence shows that Jesus' atonement is facilitating all of us in our sins and mistakes right now until we repent and make it back to the Father and higher kingdoms. We live in the telestial kingdom where the liars, cheaters, theives, and harlots go. That is the world we live on now and it is fully operational and supported under the power of Christ. And He has a church to help us commit to taking the steps of personal growth to allow us to move up kingdoms.

Do you take away all propensity to sin from those under your stewardship? Or do you recognize that part of life is making mistakes and gaining redemption from them in time.

Jesus' atonement was in a way, becoming co-dependent with us, because He didn't commit the sin, but He took the punishment as though He had. He is the only one who can do that for another person. And, He asks us to forgive, not condone, but forgive each other.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby LDS Anarchist » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Log's a purist, so it is to be expected that he will nitpick on everything.

I still remember when I first came across Log (online, that is.) I was initially quite impressed by his knowledge of the scriptures, for he quoted them extensively, and seemed to have some understandings which matched my own. When I first visited his blog (way back when), some of his earliest posts could have been written by me, so closely did they match my understandings.

But then I noticed differences and divergences between him and me. He was Pharisaical in his approach to the scriptures and didn't really expound them. He'd just endlessly quote them. Whereas I'd quote scriptures and then expound them. Also, I would use my gift of the word of knowledge to bring for new information that nobody had ever heard of. Log didn't seem to have that gift. He just regurgitated the scriptures (without expounding them.)

Then he started to talk about and defend Denver Snuffer. At that point a red flag went up. I thought, "How is it that he knows the scriptures, apparently as well as the back of his hand, but is falling for Snuffer?" It seemed strange to me that someone could totally immerse himself in the word of God and still go awry.

As time went on, I figured that Log and I would finally "have it out." When I went to other blogs to comment, Log would respond to, and argue with, other people, but never to or with me. And on my own blog, he never came to "correct me." (He claims I blocked him from commenting on my blog, but I never did.) I, myself, never made any attempt to correct him. It seemed to be a lost cause from the get-go. Log has always seemed to me to be entirely set in his beliefs, unable to alter his course, so I never even tried.

If Log is unhappy with the way the Mr. Snuffleupaguses are going, I wonder what's next for Log? Will he start his own religion, or just stay home and mope?

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The Uncompromising Purist

Postby LDS Anarchist » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:18 pm

Btw, the reason for Log's December 4th post is that Log is a part of that committee and he dissented, therefore, given that they couldn't get a unanimous vote, they wanted to alter the procedure so that only a majority decision was needed. Now, another is claiming that Log wasn't the only one who dissented, but that there were 29 other dissenters. At any rate, Log the purist is one of the thorns in their side. Which really cracks me up. Perhaps the Lord is going to use Log the Uncompromising Purist to dissemble the Mr. Snuffleupaguses before they can even get started? Their first mistake was putting somebody who doesn't compromise on his principles on a committee that must come to a compromise! Lol.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Durzan » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:31 pm

Vision wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:19 am
gardener4life wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:49 am
Well I don't have anything against this guy. I hope things work out for him.

But he was never called by God, or sustained in a priesthood meeting as having a specific 'calling' to preach to the world.
It seems to me that Joseph Smith was called of God as an individual and begin the work without a sustaining vote of a priesthood body. Alma did not receive a heavenly calling, nor was he sustained by a priesthood body when he fled King Noah's court and began a church. I'm not saying Snuffer is a prophet but we should be careful in what we say when there are examples contrary to the above pattern.
If you hadn't pointed this out, I probably would've. We mormons have entrenched ourselves in tradition and certain thoughts just like the pharisees did. Let us not make the same mistakes.

That being said, Denver doesnt have the right fruits for him to be called a Prophet of God. Thomas S Monson does, at least from what I've seen.

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Guide and Standard stuff

Postby LDS Anarchist » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:41 pm

For those who wish to follow this Guide and Standard business among the Mr. Snuffleupaguses, here are some links:

Guide and Standard Blog

Log's Blog

Guide and Standard discussion on the Remnant of Jacob Forum

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby LDS Anarchist » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:12 pm

As I said, Log himself is one of the hurdles they will need to overcome:
Remember: we don't have mutual agreement as long as we have dissent, and I dissent from every proposal save it be The Rock of Jesus Christ.

If therefore you usurp authority and place the most popular G&S which yet has dissent in the scriptures, you, the Scripture Committee and the Guide and Standard Committee, will have not fulfilled the requirement of the Lord, but will have done something else, and we as a people will be unable to accomplish tasks the Lord will lay upon us, as he said in the A&C.

Your choice, of course.

Remember, the thing which has always brought the cursing of the Lord upon his people: "they say, and do not."

Jared Livesey
(Taken from this comment. Btw, Jared Livesey is the name of Log.)

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby alaris » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:28 pm

simpleton wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:39 am
I sure get a kick out of Denver's claim of the " exercising of unrighteous dominion" practiced upon his poor soul in his excommunication from the church, as if ( according to his view) he is the only one ever to be excommunicated in the 187 plus some odd years of church history to be excommunicated unrighteously...
Does he seriously think he is the first one and only that was excommunicated " unrighteously " in all those years? And therefore AMEN to the priesthood of the whole church???? That is quite an astounding claim in my opinion, but then who am I, nobody really....
The Lord wasn't just excommunicated but condemned to death by the High Priest of the church in His day. This is why Snuffer's excommunication pretext is so revealing about him, his character, and his motives.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby LdsMarco » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:37 pm

So now they have their own scriptures? Give me a break

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby LdsMarco » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:59 pm

D&C 43

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Durzan » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:42 pm

Marco, what exactly are you trying to point out here?

For a surety, this scripture first and foremost is talking about Joseph Smith... after that, we can argue all day about how it applies to the modern day. It could be a general rule for Prophets, or it could be specific to Joseph.

Who really knows? All I know is that Thomas S. Monson is the current prophet here on the earth.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Rand » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:59 pm

Juliet wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:47 pm
Rand wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:27 pm
Juliet wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:38 am

I know as a church we put a huge value on obedience to commandments and gospel ordinances. But Jesus loves us wether we choose to obey or not. May we learn to love each other as much as Jesus loves us.
God's love for us is not redemptive. It is our love for him that redeems us. God loves perfectly, but, He is also perfectly just. He said, "If YOU love ME, keep my commandments."
He came into the world to do the will of the Father. It is His love for His Father that is His grand motivation, His cause, that which drove him through the gauntlet of Gethsemane. It was not His love for us. He said, Father, if it be possible.. nevertheless... thy will be done. He did what he did out of His perfect love and obedience to the Father. He requests, even demands the same of us. Sure, He loves us even if we willfully abuse our covenants and testimony by knowingly sinning. But that love will not redeem us beyond the resurrection. It is our obedience to Him and the Father, our love for Him and the Father that empowers Him to apply the atonement in us; to purify, sanctify, justify and redeem our full potential.

Our love for God must transcend our love for our fellow men. The Saviors did. We must follow that example. We must come to love each other, but that does not do the recipient any real tangible good. It is their love for others that does them good. It is our love of God that draws us to Him to be cleansed. A subset of that love is our ability to love others as well. But, if we want to love others so much that we will give them access to things they are not worthy of, our love is damning them, not saving or serving them. If our love facilities their propensity to sin, we are accessories to the fact. We will be held guilty too. Even if we loved them, that love will not redeem them, nor us, if our so called love for them drew us to become codependent in their sinful state.
Forgive me if this seems harsh or too pointed. I don't mean it that way.
I think your vantage point is that of a father who wants to do everything to judge righteously and set a correct standard of living so your "children" or followers will make the best possible choices. My vantage point is on the side of sympathy and mercy, more like a mother, who understands some children will learn to walk before others will, and they are loved just the same.

I like what you say, but who is the judge on whether or not someone is willfully rebelling verse seeking the truth with all their might? We are in a place of probation right now where we do get tempted and taken off the path. So, repentance is huge. It is what allows us to receive more blessings and more of God's light. But it isn't my job to hold other people to a certain standard of behavior and judge them for not being willing to receive blessings I think they ought to be readying to receive. A relationship with Jesus Christ is allowed in the terrestrial kingdom. That may be what some people are happy with receiving. A lot of us right now are not even celestial material. If someone has already entered the terrestrial kingdom and communes with Jesus, then good for them. If they haven't kept covenants to allow them to move to the celestial kingdom, then that is their choice.

I think it is very true that it is not wise to allow love or in the name of love become lenient or facilitate the sin of another. However, the fact of our mortal existence shows that Jesus' atonement is facilitating all of us in our sins and mistakes right now until we repent and make it back to the Father and higher kingdoms. We live in the telestial kingdom where the liars, cheaters, theives, and harlots go. That is the world we live on now and it is fully operational and supported under the power of Christ. And He has a church to help us commit to taking the steps of personal growth to allow us to move up kingdoms.

Do you take away all propensity to sin from those under your stewardship? Or do you recognize that part of life is making mistakes and gaining redemption from them in time.

Jesus' atonement was in a way, becoming co-dependent with us, because He didn't commit the sin, but He took the punishment as though He had. He is the only one who can do that for another person. And, He asks us to forgive, not condone, but forgive each other.
Interesting perspective. Thanks for taking the time to share it with me. I am intrigued by the difference of the fathers and the mothers perspectives. Any more you can share in that would be a blessing to me.
I agree with you in the largest sense. I guess I would ask one question. I have never perceived forgiveness to be my responsibility toward others who sin, and it has nothing to do with me. It is just their sin and their choice. Are you saying I have an obligation to forgive them also?
If so, I would wonder how and why, given I have no issue with their choice to do what they did.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Juliet » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:22 pm

Rand wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:59 pm
Juliet wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:47 pm
Rand wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:27 pm
Juliet wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:38 am

I know as a church we put a huge value on obedience to commandments and gospel ordinances. But Jesus loves us wether we choose to obey or not. May we learn to love each other as much as Jesus loves us.
God's love for us is not redemptive. It is our love for him that redeems us. God loves perfectly, but, He is also perfectly just. He said, "If YOU love ME, keep my commandments."
He came into the world to do the will of the Father. It is His love for His Father that is His grand motivation, His cause, that which drove him through the gauntlet of Gethsemane. It was not His love for us. He said, Father, if it be possible.. nevertheless... thy will be done. He did what he did out of His perfect love and obedience to the Father. He requests, even demands the same of us. Sure, He loves us even if we willfully abuse our covenants and testimony by knowingly sinning. But that love will not redeem us beyond the resurrection. It is our obedience to Him and the Father, our love for Him and the Father that empowers Him to apply the atonement in us; to purify, sanctify, justify and redeem our full potential.

Our love for God must transcend our love for our fellow men. The Saviors did. We must follow that example. We must come to love each other, but that does not do the recipient any real tangible good. It is their love for others that does them good. It is our love of God that draws us to Him to be cleansed. A subset of that love is our ability to love others as well. But, if we want to love others so much that we will give them access to things they are not worthy of, our love is damning them, not saving or serving them. If our love facilities their propensity to sin, we are accessories to the fact. We will be held guilty too. Even if we loved them, that love will not redeem them, nor us, if our so called love for them drew us to become codependent in their sinful state.
Forgive me if this seems harsh or too pointed. I don't mean it that way.
I think your vantage point is that of a father who wants to do everything to judge righteously and set a correct standard of living so your "children" or followers will make the best possible choices. My vantage point is on the side of sympathy and mercy, more like a mother, who understands some children will learn to walk before others will, and they are loved just the same.

I like what you say, but who is the judge on whether or not someone is willfully rebelling verse seeking the truth with all their might? We are in a place of probation right now where we do get tempted and taken off the path. So, repentance is huge. It is what allows us to receive more blessings and more of God's light. But it isn't my job to hold other people to a certain standard of behavior and judge them for not being willing to receive blessings I think they ought to be readying to receive. A relationship with Jesus Christ is allowed in the terrestrial kingdom. That may be what some people are happy with receiving. A lot of us right now are not even celestial material. If someone has already entered the terrestrial kingdom and communes with Jesus, then good for them. If they haven't kept covenants to allow them to move to the celestial kingdom, then that is their choice.

I think it is very true that it is not wise to allow love or in the name of love become lenient or facilitate the sin of another. However, the fact of our mortal existence shows that Jesus' atonement is facilitating all of us in our sins and mistakes right now until we repent and make it back to the Father and higher kingdoms. We live in the telestial kingdom where the liars, cheaters, theives, and harlots go. That is the world we live on now and it is fully operational and supported under the power of Christ. And He has a church to help us commit to taking the steps of personal growth to allow us to move up kingdoms.

Do you take away all propensity to sin from those under your stewardship? Or do you recognize that part of life is making mistakes and gaining redemption from them in time.

Jesus' atonement was in a way, becoming co-dependent with us, because He didn't commit the sin, but He took the punishment as though He had. He is the only one who can do that for another person. And, He asks us to forgive, not condone, but forgive each other.
Interesting perspective. Thanks for taking the time to share it with me. I am intrigued by the difference of the fathers and the mothers perspectives. Any more you can share in that would be a blessing to me.
I agree with you in the largest sense. I guess I would ask one question. I have never perceived forgiveness to be my responsibility toward others who sin, and it has nothing to do with me. It is just their sin and their choice. Are you saying I have an obligation to forgive them also?
If so, I would wonder how and why, given I have no issue with their choice to do what they did.
Well, to not need to forgive others because it has nothing to do with you, is a high view. I think I read once perhaps by Emmanuel Swedenborg that in heaven, there is never a need to forgive because no one is ever offended.

The Mother/Father dynamic is something I contemplate a lot, since I have needed more than just the letter of the law in healing from hefty childhood abuse. I have very much needed the Divine Feminine unconditional love and nurturing to reach some of the ugliest and evil parts of myself that have developed as a result of abuse. I have also come to respect the importance of surrendering to the letter of the law, the Masculine; and the power of truth. But it was the feminine, the unconditional love, that gives me courage to repent out of a respect for the truth and a desire to seek truth and adhere to it.

I think it has something to do with obedience. Do we obey because we are compelled to obey, or because we are inspired to obey? The Truth would be the Masculine, and the Inspiration the Feminine.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby LightisTruth111 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:38 am

Juliet wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:38 am
I am pretty sure that God allows Fathers in their patriarchal role and as priesthood holders to make mistakes. Perhaps in the mistake, the Priesthood is not able to access the powers of Heaven, but, I don't think the Priesthood is ever permanently disabled once you have had laying on of hands and are striving to do what is right.

Nevertheless, it is important for all of us to stand up for what we believe is right and to stand against abuse of authority. If my husband abuses his authority and treats me or my children with disrespect, I have every right to defend myself against that tyranny and demand respect. (Hypothetical example, my husband treats me and my kids very well).

Surely God is understanding and all-knowing enough to be able to take each individual's case and see it from his point of view. When every one is doing their best and mistakes are made, Jesus made atonement to equal the balances in these types of cases.

We get to love each other and see each other as doing what they believe is the best thing that they should do.

If there was only 1 cause worth fighting for, there would be no factions and there would be no variation. Even between my husband and I, we have differences of opinion. Does that mean one or the other of us is inspired of the devil? No, it means we are different. And we get the opportunity to love each other and all of our differences.

God does't need to favor one of us over the other based on how legally right one of us is, but He can respect our free will to be in or out of the church, and to guide us individually as we seek Him.

Being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and having Jesus as a friend are 2 different things. Everyone has the light of Christ and every one has the right to the companionship of Jesus Christ no matter what. And I don't think Jesus goes around telling them they ought to be members of His church. I think He lets people do what they want. If someone asks Him, Hey, what church should I join? Then, that is when they run into missionaries from our church. It is the true Church, but Jesus is an individual contractor, if that makes sense. Who are we as members to judge those who decide to walk out of the church? I'd rather someone walk out of the political 3 d earth bound telestial system then to walk away from their friendship with Jesus. And because Jesus is respectful and not controlling, He is not going to guilt anyone for leaving.

As in my case, when I had my doubts about the church, I prayed for guidance and God told me to stay in the church. Had I not asked, I would not have received that answer. Had I left the church, God would still be my friend, and someone to council with.

I know as a church we put a huge value on obedience to commandments and gospel ordinances. But Jesus loves us wether we choose to obey or not. May we learn to love each other as much as Jesus loves us.
The authority to baptise and lay of hands to sealing of the covenant remains, the greater will be with held until the people of Israel live as the people of Enoch and met the proper requirements of the covenant. That time will come soon when the Leaders of the Church of that time is sent the Mighty and Strong One of prophecy, that Zion may come into it true Light, a division results also in that time within membership a sorting of the field itself. For God will not allow even one soul who mocks their fellow brethren and has same spirit of the pharisees to remain, the requirements that come in that great test will test the hearts of the people. Only the truly righteous the truly humble and meek the truly holy shall remain by end of the sieve,.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Rand » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:19 am

Juliet wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:22 pm
Well, to not need to forgive others because it has nothing to do with you, is a high view. I think I read once perhaps by Emmanuel Swedenborg that in heaven, there is never a need to forgive because no one is ever offended.

The Mother/Father dynamic is something I contemplate a lot, since I have needed more than just the letter of the law in healing from hefty childhood abuse. I have very much needed the Divine Feminine unconditional love and nurturing to reach some of the ugliest and evil parts of myself that have developed as a result of abuse. I have also come to respect the importance of surrendering to the letter of the law, the Masculine; and the power of truth. But it was the feminine, the unconditional love, that gives me courage to repent out of a respect for the truth and a desire to seek truth and adhere to it.

I think it has something to do with obedience. Do we obey because we are compelled to obey, or because we are inspired to obey? The Truth would be the Masculine, and the Inspiration the Feminine.
This is very interesting. I have to ponder on this. Let me offer you my admiration for the healing you have done, and for the darkness you have walked through to cause you to be drawn to the light. Your humility is apparent. I bow in admiration.

Have you seen this dichotomy in the scriptures?

One of the thing that I wonder about this, it being very eastern in its nature, is I can easily see how the Father and our Heavenly Mother bring the two aspects of this continuum to balance, but how does the Savior find the compassion and unconditional love to fulfill the balance that it seems the Father might be "lacking"?

Your statement was indeed a thing of beauty! Can I add a few small thoughts in the midst of it, if it won't come across as invasive nor condescending: "The Mother/Father dynamic is something I contemplate a lot, since I have needed more than just the letter of the law in healing from hefty childhood abuse. I have very much needed the Divine Feminine unconditional love and nurturing to reach some of the ugliest and evil parts of myself that have developed[become apparent] as a result of abuse. I have also come to respect the importance of surrendering to the letter of the law,[what an amazing gift it gave you!] the Masculine; and the power of truth. But it was the feminine, the unconditional love, that gives me courage to repent out of a respect for the truth and a desire to seek truth and adhere to it."
Would my additions be offensive? Please forgive my entering such a sacred place, if so.

Thanks for sharing.

Juliet
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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby Juliet » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:00 am

Rand wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:19 am
Juliet wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:22 pm
Well, to not need to forgive others because it has nothing to do with you, is a high view. I think I read once perhaps by Emmanuel Swedenborg that in heaven, there is never a need to forgive because no one is ever offended.

The Mother/Father dynamic is something I contemplate a lot, since I have needed more than just the letter of the law in healing from hefty childhood abuse. I have very much needed the Divine Feminine unconditional love and nurturing to reach some of the ugliest and evil parts of myself that have developed as a result of abuse. I have also come to respect the importance of surrendering to the letter of the law, the Masculine; and the power of truth. But it was the feminine, the unconditional love, that gives me courage to repent out of a respect for the truth and a desire to seek truth and adhere to it.

I think it has something to do with obedience. Do we obey because we are compelled to obey, or because we are inspired to obey? The Truth would be the Masculine, and the Inspiration the Feminine.
This is very interesting. I have to ponder on this. Let me offer you my admiration for the healing you have done, and for the darkness you have walked through to cause you to be drawn to the light. Your humility is apparent. I bow in admiration.

Have you seen this dichotomy in the scriptures?

One of the thing that I wonder about this, it being very eastern in its nature, is I can easily see how the Father and our Heavenly Mother bring the two aspects of this continuum to balance, but how does the Savior find the compassion and unconditional love to fulfill the balance that it seems the Father might be "lacking"?

Your statement was indeed a thing of beauty! Can I add a few small thoughts in the midst of it, if it won't come across as invasive nor condescending: "The Mother/Father dynamic is something I contemplate a lot, since I have needed more than just the letter of the law in healing from hefty childhood abuse. I have very much needed the Divine Feminine unconditional love and nurturing to reach some of the ugliest and evil parts of myself that have developed[become apparent] as a result of abuse. I have also come to respect the importance of surrendering to the letter of the law,[what an amazing gift it gave you!] the Masculine; and the power of truth. But it was the feminine, the unconditional love, that gives me courage to repent out of a respect for the truth and a desire to seek truth and adhere to it."
Would my additions be offensive? Please forgive my entering such a sacred place, if so.

Thanks for sharing.
Thank you, That is very kind and those are good additions to what I was saying.

Jesus Christ is the spirit of truth, but He also learned empathy because He went through and endured everything we all go through. He not only endured it, but at that lowest point, when it wasn't His will, He overpowered the natural will and mortal DNA and surrendered to truth and immortal DNA.

I think He understands when obedience is not our carnal idea, so His ability and power comes from His eternal patience. While never leaving our side, He gains our trust, and He gives us all the time we need to embrace the true principles necessarily come back home.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby stillwater » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:08 pm

Arenera wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:32 pm
stillwater wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:55 pm
It would seem that the "priesthood keys" that were taken from the leadership of the LDS church when they "wrongfully" disfellowshipped Denver Snuffed have now been taken from him.
I can't see anything in the post you quoted that leads to this conclusion. Can you explain your reasoning? Is Denver a member of the G&S committee?
It's a Log posting. However, DS exerts influence on the committees.
I understand that Log posted it. I was just asking what in the post generated OP's post title. The answer appears to be nothing, and it is just a bit of baseless sensationalism.
-Bob

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby gardener4life » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:34 pm

Vision wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:19 am
gardener4life wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:49 am
Well I don't have anything against this guy. I hope things work out for him.

But he was never called by God, or sustained in a priesthood meeting as having a specific 'calling' to preach to the world.
It seems to me that Joseph Smith was called of God as an individual and begin the work without a sustaining vote of a priesthood body. Alma did not receive a heavenly calling, nor was he sustained by a priesthood body when he fled King Noah's court and began a church. I'm not saying Snuffer is a prophet but we should be careful in what we say when there are examples contrary to the above pattern.
The first organization of the Church Joseph Smith was sustained as first elder of the church. Oliver Cowdery was sustained as second elder of the church. So they were sustained. Alma was also sustained as their leader when his group fled from waters of mormon / helam area from King Noah's area. In all dispensations priesthood leaders are sustained. Part of that is to identify wolves from sheep and not to allow wolves in to eat / destroy/ corrupt the sheep.

I do think its noteworthy that you remembered Alma leaving King Noah though. You brought up a good example and thank you for doing so.

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Re: Priesthood keys taken from Denver Snuffer

Postby LdsMarco » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:36 pm

Durzan wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:42 pm
Marco, what exactly are you trying to point out here?

For a surety, this scripture first and foremost is talking about Joseph Smith... after that, we can argue all day about how it applies to the modern day. It could be a general rule for Prophets, or it could be specific to Joseph.

Who really knows? All I know is that Thomas S. Monson is the current prophet here on the earth.
Uuuum.. it applies today. It is a law and it stands forever! God is an unchanging God, remember? It is plain to understand. We are also commanded to apply all scriptures for our benefit and learning. Don't get it confused as history.

The Prophet Joseph explained in the winter of 1832-33 that "no true angel from God will ever come to ordain any man, because they have once been sent to establish the priesthood by ordaining me thereunto; and the priesthood being once established on earth, with [the] power to ordain others, no heavenly messenger will ever come to interfere with that power by ordaining any more. ... You may therefore know, from this time forward, that if any man comes to you professing to be ordained by an angel, he is either a liar or has been imposed upon in consequence of transgression by an angel of the devil, for this priesthood shall never be taken from this church."


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