What color was...

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Rand
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What color was...

Post by Rand »

The Saviors blood?

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: What color was...

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Rand wrote: November 26th, 2017, 4:33 pm The Saviors blood?
Red, is there a reason to think it was another color?

Rand
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Re: What color was...

Post by Rand »

when the spear pierced his side, what came out was clear.
If he bled from every pore, his clothes would have been a bloody mess, unless the blood was another color. You would think it would have been mentioned more than once, if it was that noticeable.
He was half God. So, he probably had a spiritual fluid flowing through his veins. Is that fluid also red? The same tint of red?
Adam partly means Red, or ruddy. That name came in part because of the fall. In the Garden, did he have red blood in his veins, or was it another color?
Just wondering... we have an Elder Blood and an Elder Scarlet in our ward now. It got me thinking during the sacrament today.
His robes are going to be red because of our sins, not necessarily his blood.

Sasquatch
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Re: What color was...

Post by Sasquatch »

Interestingly, there is a very rare condition called hematidrosis in which a person sweats blood under extreme stress.

Tbone
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Re: What color was...

Post by Tbone »

Sasquatch wrote: November 26th, 2017, 6:53 pm Interestingly, there is a very rare condition called hematidrosis in which a person sweats blood under extreme stress.
I just read the Wikipedia article on hematidrosis. It says:
Hematidrosis also results in the skin becoming extremely tender and fragile.
As horrible as it was for Jesus to be whipped and tortured and a crown of thorns placed on his head, this side effect from the sweating blood from every pore must have made the treatment he received all the more excruciating.

Interestingly, right now as I am typing this my son is practicing "I Stand All Amazed" on the piano. So appropriate and true.

Rand
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Re: What color was...

Post by Rand »

Very cool Tbone.

The sweating of blood by the Savior was only possible because of the capacity to not die. The degree to which he experienced that perspiration, would have killed any other mortal over and over.

brianj
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Re: What color was...

Post by brianj »

Rand wrote: November 26th, 2017, 6:43 pm when the spear pierced his side, what came out was clear.
If he bled from every pore, his clothes would have been a bloody mess, unless the blood was another color. You would think it would have been mentioned more than once, if it was that noticeable.
He was half God. So, he probably had a spiritual fluid flowing through his veins. Is that fluid also red? The same tint of red?
Adam partly means Red, or ruddy. That name came in part because of the fall. In the Garden, did he have red blood in his veins, or was it another color?
Just wondering... we have an Elder Blood and an Elder Scarlet in our ward now. It got me thinking during the sacrament today.
His robes are going to be red because of our sins, not necessarily his blood.
I have seen analysis of crucifixion and the scriptural specifics of Jesus' death by a physician who argued that an aortic aneurysm rupture is the likely cause of death. This would cause blood pumped out of the left ventricle of the heart to flow into the thoracic cavity instead of following arteries throughout the body. When this happens, death quickly follows. But what next?

Without anything moving the blood, it just sits there. Have you ever let orange juice sit in the refrigerator for a few days, in a clear container? What happens? Much of the content of the juice settles out to form a dense layer at the bottom, leaving most of the contents of the container a transparent pale orange color. The same thing happens with blood, but more quickly.

What likely happened when the Savior's side was pierced is that it was pierced at a point above the hematocrit level so only plasma flowed out. This doesn't mean Jesus didn't have red blood, or that all His blood was lost through sweat and prior puncture wounds.

Rand
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Re: What color was...

Post by Rand »

I have heard that too. I suspect there is a more godly explanation than that one. If he had a centrifuge inside, to separate the plasma, maybe, but it would take gravity a long time to do that to the blood.
But, your vote is red I take it. I really don't know, but I have a feeling it wasn't red, like ours.

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Lyster
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Re: What color was...

Post by Lyster »

We may be overlooking the human element here - in both Christ and ourselves.

A) Us - when we whip a person and do many other nasty things to them, which we have done many a-time before, we expect red blood to come forth. If something else comes out at the start, what is a regular human going to do?

"What the balls?". Stop. Figure this out. Surely there'd be some mention of the scene that was caused. "What if he's not like the rest of us?" "Could he be...?"

When pierced with the spear, it is noted that "there came forth blood and water. Perhaps we can look to the sacrifices in the Law of Moses for an explanation (after all, they were in similitude of Him). All of the blood was drained from the sacrifice. Otherwise, it was not complete.

So, too, could all of the blood of Christ need to be expended, as a complete offering.

B) Him - yes, the power of death had no hold over him... WITH one exception. He had the power to willingly take His own life. Thus, still a mortal, he would have had the same structure as we do. As in Adam all die (fall, etc) and become mortal (blood), so in Christ are all made alive (perfected, no need of blood).

It is stated that we must have our garments washed white in the blood of the Lamb. The only way we could take that literally is if His blood was white (good thing it is used as a symbol). White blood would very well draw reactions such as found in point A above.

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ParticleMan
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Re: What color was...

Post by ParticleMan »

brianj wrote: November 26th, 2017, 8:25 pm
Rand wrote: November 26th, 2017, 6:43 pm when the spear pierced his side, what came out was clear.
If he bled from every pore, his clothes would have been a bloody mess, unless the blood was another color. You would think it would have been mentioned more than once, if it was that noticeable.
He was half God. So, he probably had a spiritual fluid flowing through his veins. Is that fluid also red? The same tint of red?
Adam partly means Red, or ruddy. That name came in part because of the fall. In the Garden, did he have red blood in his veins, or was it another color?....
I have seen analysis of crucifixion and the scriptural specifics of Jesus' death by a physician who argued that an aortic aneurysm rupture is the likely cause of death. This would cause blood pumped out of the left ventricle of the heart to flow into the thoracic cavity instead of following arteries throughout the body. When this happens, death quickly follows....
Rand: Blood quickens mortal bodies, including Jesus prior to the Resurrection, in which spirit quickens. As for blood perhaps being noticeable on his robe after Gethsemane, the Bible Video depicts him rinsing off in a stream.


brianj: Was the analysis similar to this note in ch. 35 of Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage?:

The Physical Cause of Christ’s Death

"While, as stated in the text, the yielding up of life was voluntary on the part of Jesus Christ, for He had life in Himself and no man could take His life except as He willed to allow it to be taken, (John 1:4; 5:26; 10:15–18) there was of necessity a direct physical cause of dissolution.

"As stated also the crucified sometimes lived for days upon the cross, and death resulted, not from the infliction of mortal wounds, but from internal congestion, inflammations, organic disturbances, and consequent exhaustion of vital energy. Jesus, though weakened by long torture during the preceding night and early morning, by the shock of the crucifixion itself, as also by intense mental agony, and particularly through spiritual suffering such as no other man has ever endured, manifested surprising vigor, both of mind and body, to the last. The strong, loud utterance, immediately following which He bowed His head and “gave up the ghost,” when considered in connection with other recorded details, points to a physical rupture of the heart as the direct cause of death.

"If the soldier’s spear was thrust into the left side of the Lord’s body and actually penetrated the heart, the outrush of “blood and water” observed by John is further evidence of a cardiac rupture; for it is known that in the rare instances of death resulting from a breaking of any part of the wall of the heart, blood accumulates within the pericardium, and there undergoes a change by which the corpuscles separate as a partially clotted mass from the almost colorless, watery serum. Similar accumulations of clotted corpuscles and serum occur within the pleura.

"Dr. Abercrombie of Edinburgh, as cited by Deems (Light of the Nations, p. 682), “gives a case of the sudden death of a man aged seventy-seven years, owing to a rupture of the heart. In his case ‘the cavities of the pleura contained about three pounds of fluid, but the lungs were sound.’” Deems also cites the following instance: “Dr. Elliotson relates the case of a woman who died suddenly. ‘On opening the body the pericardium was found distended with clear serum, and a very large coagulum of blood, which had escaped through a spontaneous rupture of the aorta near its origin, without any other morbid appearance.’ Many cases might be cited, but these suffice.” For detailed treatment of the subject the student may be referred to Dr. Wm. Stroud’s work On the Physical Cause of the Death of Christ. Great mental stress, poignant emotion either of grief or joy, and intense spiritual struggle are among the recognized causes of heart rupture."
Last edited by ParticleMan on November 26th, 2017, 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

commonwealth
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Re: What color was...

Post by commonwealth »

brianj has it right. One of blood's key functions is to clot. If it slows down or stops, it will clot faster. With a thoracic or abdominal aortic aneurysm, this can happen quite quickly. No centrifuge required. The serum will separate and come out clear-ish.

MMbelieve
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Re: What color was...

Post by MMbelieve »

brianj wrote: November 26th, 2017, 8:25 pm
Rand wrote: November 26th, 2017, 6:43 pm when the spear pierced his side, what came out was clear.
If he bled from every pore, his clothes would have been a bloody mess, unless the blood was another color. You would think it would have been mentioned more than once, if it was that noticeable.
He was half God. So, he probably had a spiritual fluid flowing through his veins. Is that fluid also red? The same tint of red?
Adam partly means Red, or ruddy. That name came in part because of the fall. In the Garden, did he have red blood in his veins, or was it another color?
Just wondering... we have an Elder Blood and an Elder Scarlet in our ward now. It got me thinking during the sacrament today.
His robes are going to be red because of our sins, not necessarily his blood.
I have seen analysis of crucifixion and the scriptural specifics of Jesus' death by a physician who argued that an aortic aneurysm rupture is the likely cause of death. This would cause blood pumped out of the left ventricle of the heart to flow into the thoracic cavity instead of following arteries throughout the body. When this happens, death quickly follows. But what next?

Without anything moving the blood, it just sits there. Have you ever let orange juice sit in the refrigerator for a few days, in a clear container? What happens? Much of the content of the juice settles out to form a dense layer at the bottom, leaving most of the contents of the container a transparent pale orange color. The same thing happens with blood, but more quickly.

What likely happened when the Savior's side was pierced is that it was pierced at a point above the hematocrit level so only plasma flowed out. This doesn't mean Jesus didn't have red blood, or that all His blood was lost through sweat and prior puncture wounds.
I heard someone mention the water and blood coming from his side (must have never concerned me before) so I looked it up. Apparently the shock the body experiences after the treatment Christ endured, causes fluid (water) to accumulate. He experienced extreme torture and shock and that is why he bled water and blood from his side. Its just what happens to a human body and he experienced it.

I feel humbled just trying this.

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cyclOps
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Re: What color was...

Post by cyclOps »

If His blood was anything other than red, He would not have looked human. Red blood gives the skin its healthy color.

diligently seeking
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Re: What color was...

Post by diligently seeking »

Wednesday was an emotionally draining day for me. has anyone ever experienced severe I mean *severe* throat pain either themselves or someone close to them? My wife was inconsolable with incredible pain in her throat which projected through out her head etc. It was urgent care visit for she and I in the morning and then I ended up taking her to the emergency room in the evening. Percocet etc in the mornING no affect--- a morphine shot etc in the evening no affect. I was weary with concern and worn down a little bit in my ability 2 come to terms with my wife's agony. I found myself not being able to stay watch throughout the night with my wife. in my condition falling asleep came fairly naturally after a while. At one point I woke up in the middle of the night and immediately the words came to my mind the familiar expression of Christ to his disciples asking could they not stay awake 1 hour... it was soboring to me how weak our flesh can be under circumstances of duress;, additionally, it gave me compassion for Christ's disciples.

I'm of the opinion that as wonderful the information is in the scriptures in regards to portrayed events--- we will one day be surprised at all the further rich details that were left out of the scriptures that if we had access to would give us the clarity we need. Jesus had to drink this bitter cup --however I'm fairly convinced in my mind and heart that he who had no longer need of faith in heavenly parents for his knowledge was sure and perfect of father and mother etic-- I feel convinced he was administered to not only by Angels but by our Heavenly parents also... Our Saviour had full use of seiling powers. He who could raise the dead and attach cut off ears and restore sight to the blind and turn water into wine etc could control the elements and cause an otherwise saturated garment to be made whole and clean / or receive a change of garments and loving attention from those who did stay watch... Fascinating stuff to think about pray about and desire to see in vision etc.


Ps my wife that very night awoke me and in faith asked that her infirmity be rebuked--- so with her faith in the Lord and my faith in the Lord and the priesthood power being put in motion '-- I rebuked this infirmity and any evil attached to it etc . relief came for her and recovery followed shortly after. All praise to our most great Saviour and Redeemer-- He who has born our griefs sorrow sin and pain and knows how to perfectly succer and heal-- even Jesus Christ.

Rand
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Re: What color was...

Post by Rand »

What a wonderful resource this forum can be. Thank you to all who have shared. There has been considerable wisdom, thought and insight shared. I am humbled at the fine contributions from so many.

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kittycat51
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Re: What color was...

Post by kittycat51 »

ParticleMan wrote: November 26th, 2017, 9:02 pm Great mental stress, poignant emotion either of grief or joy, and intense spiritual struggle are among the recognized causes of heart rupture."
I seem to recall and I'm totally not sure where I heard it but, I thought it was Elder Nelson (interesting a former heart surgeon) whom stated something like this that Christ died as the result of a broken heart...kInd of powerful if you think about it.

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kittycat51
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Re: What color was...

Post by kittycat51 »

JaredBees wrote: November 27th, 2017, 3:49 am Wednesday was an emotionally draining day for me. has anyone ever experienced severe I mean *severe* throat pain either themselves or someone close to them? My wife was inconsolable with incredible pain in her throat which projected through out her head etc. It was urgent care visit for she and I in the morning and then I ended up taking her to the emergency room in the evening. Percocet etc in the mornING no affect--- a morphine shot etc in the evening no affect. I was weary with concern and worn down a little bit in my ability 2 come to terms with my wife's agony. I found myself not being able to stay watch throughout the night with my wife. in my condition falling asleep came fairly naturally after a while. At one point I woke up in the middle of the night and immediately the words came to my mind the familiar expression of Christ to his disciples asking could they not stay awake 1 hour... it was soboring to me how weak our flesh can be under circumstances of duress;, additionally, it gave me compassion for Christ's disciples.

I'm of the opinion that as wonderful the information is in the scriptures in regards to portrayed events--- we will one day be surprised at all the further rich details that were left out of the scriptures that if we had access to would give us the clarity we need. Jesus had to drink this bitter cup --however I'm fairly convinced in my mind and heart that he who had no longer need of faith in heavenly parents for his knowledge was sure and perfect of father and mother etic-- I feel convinced he was administered to not only by Angels but by our Heavenly parents also... Our Saviour had full use of seiling powers. He who could raise the dead and attach cut off ears and restore sight to the blind and turn water into wine etc could control the elements and cause an otherwise saturated garment to be made whole and clean / or receive a change of garments and loving attention from those who did stay watch... Fascinating stuff to think about pray about and desire to see in vision etc.


Ps my wife that very night awoke me and in faith asked that her infirmity be rebuked--- so with her faith in the Lord and my faith in the Lord and the priesthood power being put in motion '-- I rebuked this infirmity and any evil attached to it etc . relief came for her and recovery followed shortly after. All praise to our most great Saviour and Redeemer-- He who has born our griefs sorrow sin and pain and knows how to perfectly succer and heal-- even Jesus Christ.
Off topic of the original OP but JaredBees I find it totally fascinating that you mention your wife asking you to rebuke her infirmity. I have recently read a couple of instances where former prophets have mentioned the "rebuking" of ill health. I have wanted for several months to ask my husband to do this for me, but am too afraid to ask. I have just felt that I need the rebuking and any evil attached to it.

So glad to hear she is feeling better. I hope it made for a better Thanksgiving?

diligently seeking
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Re: What color was...

Post by diligently seeking »

kittycat51 wrote: November 27th, 2017, 9:52 am
JaredBees wrote: November 27th, 2017, 3:49 am Wednesday was an emotionally draining day for me. has anyone ever experienced severe I mean *severe* throat pain either themselves or someone close to them? My wife was inconsolable with incredible pain in her throat which projected through out her head etc. It was urgent care visit for she and I in the morning and then I ended up taking her to the emergency room in the evening. Percocet etc in the mornING no affect--- a morphine shot etc in the evening no affect. I was weary with concern and worn down a little bit in my ability 2 come to terms with my wife's agony. I found myself not being able to stay watch throughout the night with my wife. in my condition falling asleep came fairly naturally after a while. At one point I woke up in the middle of the night and immediately the words came to my mind the familiar expression of Christ to his disciples asking could they not stay awake 1 hour... it was soboring to me how weak our flesh can be under circumstances of duress;, additionally, it gave me compassion for Christ's disciples.

I'm of the opinion that as wonderful the information is in the scriptures in regards to portrayed events--- we will one day be surprised at all the further rich details that were left out of the scriptures that if we had access to would give us the clarity we need. Jesus had to drink this bitter cup --however I'm fairly convinced in my mind and heart that he who had no longer need of faith in heavenly parents for his knowledge was sure and perfect of father and mother etic-- I feel convinced he was administered to not only by Angels but by our Heavenly parents also... Our Saviour had full use of seiling powers. He who could raise the dead and attach cut off ears and restore sight to the blind and turn water into wine etc could control the elements and cause an otherwise saturated garment to be made whole and clean / or receive a change of garments and loving attention from those who did stay watch... Fascinating stuff to think about pray about and desire to see in vision etc.


Ps my wife that very night awoke me and in faith asked that her infirmity be rebuked--- so with her faith in the Lord and my faith in the Lord and the priesthood power being put in motion '-- I rebuked this infirmity and any evil attached to it etc . relief came for her and recovery followed shortly after. All praise to our most great Saviour and Redeemer-- He who has born our griefs sorrow sin and pain and knows how to perfectly succer and heal-- even Jesus Christ.
Off topic of the original OP but JaredBees I find it totally fascinating that you mention your wife asking you to rebuke her infirmity. I have recently read a couple of instances where former prophets have mentioned the "rebuking" of ill health. I have wanted for several months to ask my husband to do this for me, but am too afraid to ask. I have just felt that I need the rebuking and any evil attached to it.

So glad to hear she is feeling better. I hope it made for a better Thanksgiving?
Bless you good sister. It is true no one escapes daily the harrasment in one form or another persecution from dark entities. Faith in Christ will see me and you and all of us through from every form of bondage that being an inhabitant of this telestial existence presents. You can't read more than one or two or three pages in the 4 gospels where Christ was not found rebuking unclean spirits or devils from people and then offering a healing blessing. In every day and age there's been a great need to exercise God's power for our protection etc. This was a consuming part of our Saviors ministry... The adversary so rejoices in our fear and intimidation and ignorance on the significance of exercising our faith in a way that you desire. What a blessed and wonderful and righteous thing you desire. I would encourage you to talk to your husband. pick a date where the both of you can fast and pray. This will give your husband time where he can focus on thoughts and actions of personal righteousness leading up to exercising of God's power. It is so very important that a person is whole and clean before the Lord in such a setting where we desire to voice God's will. Heaven rejoices when we allow God's power to have dominion in our lives over the enemy.

Our Thanksgiving was relaxed and good. my wife being over that tough hump of excruciating pain did make for a better Thanksgiving etc... thanks for asking. :)


Ephesians 6
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

brianj
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Re: What color was...

Post by brianj »

ParticleMan wrote: November 26th, 2017, 9:02 pm
brianj wrote: November 26th, 2017, 8:25 pm
Rand wrote: November 26th, 2017, 6:43 pm when the spear pierced his side, what came out was clear.
If he bled from every pore, his clothes would have been a bloody mess, unless the blood was another color. You would think it would have been mentioned more than once, if it was that noticeable.
He was half God. So, he probably had a spiritual fluid flowing through his veins. Is that fluid also red? The same tint of red?
Adam partly means Red, or ruddy. That name came in part because of the fall. In the Garden, did he have red blood in his veins, or was it another color?....
I have seen analysis of crucifixion and the scriptural specifics of Jesus' death by a physician who argued that an aortic aneurysm rupture is the likely cause of death. This would cause blood pumped out of the left ventricle of the heart to flow into the thoracic cavity instead of following arteries throughout the body. When this happens, death quickly follows....
Rand: Blood quickens mortal bodies, including Jesus prior to the Resurrection, in which spirit quickens. As for blood perhaps being noticeable on his robe after Gethsemane, the Bible Video depicts him rinsing off in a stream.


brianj: Was the analysis similar to this note in ch. 35 of Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage?:

The Physical Cause of Christ’s Death

"While, as stated in the text, the yielding up of life was voluntary on the part of Jesus Christ, for He had life in Himself and no man could take His life except as He willed to allow it to be taken, (John 1:4; 5:26; 10:15–18) there was of necessity a direct physical cause of dissolution.

"As stated also the crucified sometimes lived for days upon the cross, and death resulted, not from the infliction of mortal wounds, but from internal congestion, inflammations, organic disturbances, and consequent exhaustion of vital energy. Jesus, though weakened by long torture during the preceding night and early morning, by the shock of the crucifixion itself, as also by intense mental agony, and particularly through spiritual suffering such as no other man has ever endured, manifested surprising vigor, both of mind and body, to the last. The strong, loud utterance, immediately following which He bowed His head and “gave up the ghost,” when considered in connection with other recorded details, points to a physical rupture of the heart as the direct cause of death.

"If the soldier’s spear was thrust into the left side of the Lord’s body and actually penetrated the heart, the outrush of “blood and water” observed by John is further evidence of a cardiac rupture; for it is known that in the rare instances of death resulting from a breaking of any part of the wall of the heart, blood accumulates within the pericardium, and there undergoes a change by which the corpuscles separate as a partially clotted mass from the almost colorless, watery serum. Similar accumulations of clotted corpuscles and serum occur within the pleura.

"Dr. Abercrombie of Edinburgh, as cited by Deems (Light of the Nations, p. 682), “gives a case of the sudden death of a man aged seventy-seven years, owing to a rupture of the heart. In his case ‘the cavities of the pleura contained about three pounds of fluid, but the lungs were sound.’” Deems also cites the following instance: “Dr. Elliotson relates the case of a woman who died suddenly. ‘On opening the body the pericardium was found distended with clear serum, and a very large coagulum of blood, which had escaped through a spontaneous rupture of the aorta near its origin, without any other morbid appearance.’ Many cases might be cited, but these suffice.” For detailed treatment of the subject the student may be referred to Dr. Wm. Stroud’s work On the Physical Cause of the Death of Christ. Great mental stress, poignant emotion either of grief or joy, and intense spiritual struggle are among the recognized causes of heart rupture."
What I saw was much more detailed and contradicts a bit of what Talmage wrote. It started with a detailed analysis of what crucifixion does to the body and how it impacts respiration. Inspiration is active, using the intercostal muscles to expand the rib cage, and expiration is passive as those muscles relax. When a body is hanging from outstretched arms, the rib cage is pulled to the expanded position so you passively inhale and have to use muscles to exhale. Since muscles aren't normally used this way, they fatigue. The feet are nailed into a position where the knees are bent, so in addition to the pain of putting weight on that wound when trying to take the pressure off your rib cage your legs are in a position where they will fatigue quickly. Stand against a wall with your heels against the wall, squat a little bit, and you will see how quickly your legs get sore.

This results in getting to a point where you have a hard time breathing, so you have to put your weight on your feet as long as you can stand that pain. Crucifixion is one of the worst methods of execution ever devised.

Rand
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Re: What happens to the posts on this forum?

Post by Rand »

What is the deal? There are quite a few posts on this topic that have disappeared. Who moves them and what happens to them? I have had a bunch of posts that never end up being posted on this forum. What is going on?

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Robin Hood
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Re: What color was...

Post by Robin Hood »

Sasquatch wrote: November 26th, 2017, 6:53 pm Interestingly, there is a very rare condition called hematidrosis in which a person sweats blood under extreme stress.
This occurred a number of times in the trenches during the First World War. Often just prior to "going over the top".

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