Life course

[jh36m]

I've been a member my whole life, recently looking over my beliefs and questioning many things in and out of the church, mainly spiritual, and how people pray and approach God, and come into a couple facts. Some say the bible says not to be emotionally based in prayer, and one president of the quorum of the twelve said imppressive spiritual experiences are uncommon and what we look for is a still small voice. usually very quietly tells you things. I always thought I was real close to God. This new information will literally change the whole course of my life and my relation with God as I know it.

[Crackers]

Welcome. I am wondering how the things you mentioned have affected you so deeply. If you feel close to God, I think you probably are. You shouldn't allow these thoughts to obscure that fact. What particularly troubles you about it?

[Rose Garden]

Yes, I'm wondering the same thing. Why does the things you learned trouble you?

[Juliet]

Trust yourself. If you put your own experience aside because of what an authority says, then you won't be able to learn whether you are right or wrong. We sustain our leaders. Joseph Fielding Smith has a series of answers to gospel questions. One of them is how do you know a prophet is speaking as a man or prophet. The answer was you know by the Holy Spirit. You sustain what they say as the Holy Spirit testifies to you.

The whole point of church is to give you the keys to the Melchezedek priesthood with is the knowledge of God. Of course we teach the gospel, which ends with the Holy Spirit. When you live by personal revelation as given by the Holy Spirit, and that revelation certainly can be 2nd witnessed by the prophets to keep you on track and spiritually grounded, it is like the training wheels come off.

If you feel like an ugly duckling, prepare to fly with the swans and don't let the chickens get you down. Be true to yourself.

[Rand]

I've been a member my whole life, recently looking over my beliefs and questioning many things in and out of the church, mainly spiritual, and how people pray and approach God, and come into a couple facts. Some say the bible says not to be emotionally based in prayer, and one president of the quorum of the twelve said imppressive spiritual experiences are uncommon and what we look for is a still small voice. usually very quietly tells you things. I always thought I was real close to God. This new information will literally change the whole course of my life and my relation with God as I know it.

There are more than a few in the church of late who seek the extraordinary. I personally think it is a wide open invitation for Satan to step into our life. That is validated by the many who have left the church for various, but similar reasons. The counsel of the wise leader is not absolute, but it is universally good counsel. It may not be perfect for you in your exact situation, but, in my book, if you comply, God will not take away from you anything at all, and bless you for that humble obedience.

[MMbelieve]

I've been a member my whole life, recently looking over my beliefs and questioning many things in and out of the church, mainly spiritual, and how people pray and approach God, and come into a couple facts. Some say the bible says not to be emotionally based in prayer, and one president of the quorum of the twelve said imppressive spiritual experiences are uncommon and what we look for is a still small voice. usually very quietly tells you things. I always thought I was real close to God. This new information will literally change the whole course of my life and my relation with God as I know it.

I had this same impression come to my mind whIle watching one of those youth devotionals with Eyring and I think Holland? I was amazed at how they were talking about God and how to communicate with God. It seemed as if they were making God more distant and more impersonal while stating that God is diety and should be approached with formality and not "casually" spoken to.

This gave me the same thoughts you were having that perhaps I am not actually close to God and even that God was unhappy with how I "believe" that I have a relationship with him or view his as personable...

I was deeply troubled and wrestled with trying to understand while It was still playing on the TV. By the end, I ended up chosing my relationship and the experiences I have had and retaining my belief that God is my "father" and I will continue to approach him as my father with due respect. I understand that there certainly are times when things are done "by the book" when approaching God but hey, since we don't pray to Jesus, then I will pray and talk with God as he is my friend.

Honestly, I also separated myself as a younger lay member of the church vs them as older and more "traditional" in the old ways of the gospel and as apostles who approach God with matters that affect the entire body of the church. They may approach God in the way they do because they are acting officially for the church?
I don't know.

I cannot however view God as an untouchable, impersonal father. I wouldn't ever approach him except for designated official matters if that were the case. But, I have seen others who view God in the same manner as the apostles stated in this devotional, and I respect them and their reverence. But for me, I have reverence and respect but I desire to find comfort and guidance like a daughter from her father.

Ultimately my summary from the words spoken in the devotional is that the apostles were trying to state something to the younger members of the church who may be too casual and that they never intended to impress to members the negative messages that I found entering my mind. Perhaps, the message they were trying to give could have been more clear if it was prepared instead of a Q&A session.

[oneClimbs]

I've been a member my whole life, recently looking over my beliefs and questioning many things in and out of the church, mainly spiritual, and how people pray and approach God, and come into a couple facts. Some say the bible says not to be emotionally based in prayer, and one president of the quorum of the twelve said imppressive spiritual experiences are uncommon and what we look for is a still small voice. usually very quietly tells you things. I always thought I was real close to God. This new information will literally change the whole course of my life and my relation with God as I know it.

Here's my opinion on where the problem lies. When the end goal is an impressive spiritual experience, you're doing it wrong. God will give what he will, but I can guarantee that you'll never experience anything "impressive" with the divine if you are not keeping the commandments and have them written on your heart. Do you care for people? Are you kind? Do you forgive? I'm not checklisting here, I'm asking if you truly seek to follow the will of the Lord in the little things. Humbly seek to serve others and forget about yourself and your desire for Hollywood-style experiences.

God will reveal things to you and you'll know that it is by him that you are led if you approach him in humility and love others the way he does. I have had "impressive" experiences but none of them came by seeking them out. All of them came when I was just trying to do the right thing and forgetting myself. It's only when I have turned inward that those things ceased.

[gardener4life]

I've been a member my whole life, recently looking over my beliefs and questioning many things in and out of the church, mainly spiritual, and how people pray and approach God, and come into a couple facts. Some say the bible says not to be emotionally based in prayer, and one president of the quorum of the twelve said imppressive spiritual experiences are uncommon and what we look for is a still small voice. usually very quietly tells you things. I always thought I was real close to God. This new information will literally change the whole course of my life and my relation with God as I know it.

An apostles saying impressive spiritual experiences doesn't mean or equate to closeness to God or not having closeness. Rather 'impressive spiritual experiences' he's referring to is like the veil being parted kind of stuff. Adam, Abraham, the prophets, righteous people in any age absolutely did feel real close to God every day and so can you. (We just won't see God or Jesus every day.) Think like the Force, they feel the force everyday, they know its real, they feel it all the time. But they don't show it off everyday. (Although I hate comparing it something in a movie.)

Much of feeling closeness to God is absolutely everyday and feeling him really close. You can and should feel that way. You also can have the privilege of feeling the Spirit confirm you are living right and accepted by the Lord with how you are living. In fact the Lord wants to give that to you often. But it doesn't mean the veil is going to parted all the time. But you are still close to God. Think about it like this; we're just using our heart and hears to feel and hear more than we're using our eyes.

Don't worry it's OK. Isn't it exciting? To think we can feel close to God everyday is absolutely amazing and we really can. But use your heart to feel the most.

[jh36m]

Thats all i want. closeness really feel close. I dont care if I see anything like visions. I love Love. and alot of it. and my love is always right there.????????

[gardener4life]

It is in the scriptures many times and in lots of peoples' patriarchal blessings that you have the opportunity to 'have his spirit to be with you always' (and in the sacramental prayers!). So the sky is the limit. That's what's cool about the simple teachings of the gospel. The simpler you go the more it will answer MOST questions if you just get to the simple parts. What are the simple parts? The sacramental prayers!

Think about the blessing for the sacraments wording. IT's whole concept IMPLIES and has verbage that we're here to develop real closeness to Heavenly Father and Christ that is absolutely real!

...that they may always have his spirit to be with them.....that we may remember him always...(that we will love and revere him for paying for the atonement)...Heavenly Father we plead with thee (implied; to be with thee, and to have a future with thee!)

[HappyCamper8]

... God will give what he will, but I can guarantee that you'll never experience anything "impressive" with the divine if you are not keeping the commandments and have them written on your heart. Do you care for people? Are you kind? Do you forgive? I'm not checklisting here, I'm asking if you truly seek to follow the will of the Lord in the little things. Humbly seek to serve others and forget about yourself and your desire for Hollywood-style experiences.

I've always been taught this concept growing up. I've spent 30-ish years of trying hard to fulfill all callings, multiple callings at times, (You'd be surprised to know me and what my callings have been and what it currently is) reading scriptures or at least listening every day, always pray everyday, morning, night, throughout the day. If I'm honest with myself, I'm not sure I've ever felt any correlation with this stuff and feeling it's all true. Many times through my life, I began to think I must be pretty wicked. At one point in my life, I began to fear maybe I am a son of perdition since the Heavens are always silent toward me, but seems to be available for everybody else. Everybody around me all talk about their experiences of coming to a point where they "had to know" and worked hard and bam, they had the spirit confirm. I've spent many nights "working hard" at getting some type of confirmation. Not sure anything has ever happened in terms of confrimation, at least I don't think I recognize it.

All this time, I've always decided to just keep plugging along as if I actually had confirmation, hoping this would constitute some faith that it would come some day. I'm afraid, I may be coming to my breaking point. I'm starting to think that others may be saying they have confirmation in an attempt at showing faith as well. Not sure what to think anymore. I know, I know, I've heard it here before. I'm sinning. I'm not trying hard enough. I'm not reading the scriptures enough. I'm not magnifying my calling enough. etc. etc. I don't think it's that simple anymore.

As I have looked to some in the scriptures, I have realized, many who were NOT keeping the commandments had "impressive" experiences with the divine. I could list them, but I'm sure if you think through them, you will find them.

[oneClimbs]

I've always been taught this concept growing up. I've spent 30-ish years of trying hard to fulfill all callings, multiple callings at times, (You'd be surprised to know me and what my callings have been and what it currently is) reading scriptures or at least listening every day, always pray everyday, morning, night, throughout the day. If I'm honest with myself, I'm not sure I've ever felt any correlation with this stuff and feeling it's all true. Many times through my life, I began to think I must be pretty wicked. At one point in my life, I began to fear maybe I am a son of perdition since the Heavens are always silent toward me, but seems to be available for everybody else. Everybody around me all talk about their experiences of coming to a point where they "had to know" and worked hard and bam, they had the spirit confirm. I've spent many nights "working hard" at getting some type of confirmation. Not sure anything has ever happened in terms of confrimation, at least I don't think I recognize it.

All this time, I've always decided to just keep plugging along as if I actually had confirmation, hoping this would constitute some faith that it would come some day. I'm afraid, I may be coming to my breaking point. I'm starting to think that others may be saying they have confirmation in an attempt at showing faith as well. Not sure what to think anymore. I know, I know, I've heard it here before. I'm sinning. I'm not trying hard enough. I'm not reading the scriptures enough. I'm not magnifying my calling enough. etc. etc. I don't think it's that simple anymore.

As I have looked to some in the scriptures, I have realized, many who were NOT keeping the commandments had "impressive" experiences with the divine. I could list them, but I'm sure if you think through them, you will find them.

Listen, my friend, for the first part of my life up until my mission years I was in complete darkness concerning knowledge of God. That's only the half of it as well, I'm not going into details there. Like you, I "worked hard" at seeking these answers and the heavens replied in silence, or at least in ways that I could not perceive. I wasn't a bad kid either, I had only missed 4 days of seminary across all 4 years, I was active in church and in scouts. I was everywhere I should have been with people I should have been around. I was just a kid trying to figure out how to do right. Despite all that, the silence from the heavens left me feeling worthless and rejected.

Around 17 years old, I went through a similar experience as you where I noticed people talking about their conversion experiences and ability to hear the voice of the Spirit, etc. I grew tired of hearing all these stories and wondered why I was left out. Was I doing something wrong? Did God not care about me? Was he even there at all? I decided that I was going to read the scriptures with real intent, although the King James English was very confusing, I was determined to devote myself to really experiencing them on my own.

I started in the New Testament and read the teachings of Jesus. Someone said to pray for guidance before I read each time, so I did. Then I got to Luke 24:6 and I read the words, "He is not here, but is risen..." and something happened. It was not emotion but something small yet discernable that communicated to my mind clearly that these words were true. Well, that had never happened before so I was intrigued. I persisted and bit by bit my understanding was enlightened and I marked my scriptures and cross-referenced them heavily. This continued into the mission field (my reasons for going were very personal and related to another string of experiences in my life) where as I voluntarily put myself aside, which anyone can do simply in their own daily lives, I began to see God working with other people and I was a co-participant in their blessings.

The real fulness of blessings were experienced as I continually pursued these ends culminating in forgiving everyone I could ever think of and specifically one last person who I felt had wronged me. Now what she did wasn't really that bad, but I held a grudge. Well, I let that go and let her know that she had my complete forgiveness and that any ill feelings had been transformed into a newfound love and respect.

Shortly after this time, the heavens opened and I was born of God. I won't detail the nature of that experience but it was the turning point of my life. It was then that my actions were guided by a genuine desire for good because I knew the depths of God's love for me, his overwhelming confirmation that I was redeemed and that nothing could keep me from him, and that he has this same love for all his children.

I have had other experiences. I don't have magnificent experiences very often these days. True, I often get caught up in just trying to provide for my family and be a dad, but I am at all times fueled by that rebirth and I see God's hand everywhere. I don't look for magic tricks and performances on God's part because with every physical sense of my body, and every spiritual sense, I know that I am surrounded by him and am in his care.

In Alma 5, Alma asks the brethren of the church "Have ye been spiritually born of God?" I'd ask you the same question and if not, I would make that your immediate quest and to not cease until you have obtained it. Rediscover the sermon on the mount and make that your standard of life. Walk that path, hold to the rod and continue through the darkness until you find the tree and partake of the fruit. All else will fall into place.

[marc]

I've been a member my whole life, recently looking over my beliefs and questioning many things in and out of the church, mainly spiritual, and how people pray and approach God, and come into a couple facts. Some say the bible says not to be emotionally based in prayer, and one president of the quorum of the twelve said imppressive spiritual experiences are uncommon and what we look for is a still small voice. usually very quietly tells you things. I always thought I was real close to God. This new information will literally change the whole course of my life and my relation with God as I know it.

Have you read and considered what Jesus Christ often said about praying and also approaching Him? What things has He personally declared throughout scripture that may not line up with the things you perceive anyone else has said or taught? This could change your entire perception and trajectory of your "life course."

[HappyCamper8]

Thanks for your testimony and experience. It sounds like our background is pretty similar. I may have started when I was younger than 17 though, but not sure the exact age.
I went through similar feelings when you say you "grew tire of hearing all these stories and wondered..." at a young age as well. Imagine now that you still didn't have any of that confirmation still 25 or so years after that. And you have retried this many times over the years with the same result.

It's kind of funny because yours is just another added to the list. It sounds like you were still pretty young when you received confirmation.

With regards to "I would make that your immediate quest and to not cease until you have obtained it." How far do you go? Quit my job and forget about my wife and all my kids to solely concentrate on that? Obviously there has to be a line drawn with how far a person goes. I have spent many many hours and nights searching for these things with nothing to speak of, that I recognize anyway.

30 years of that with much personal time devoted to all the callings over the years, I'm starting to wonder why. In fact, lately, the harder I work at it, by devoting more time to reading scriptures and praying fervently, the worse I feel about it all and the more unhappy I become. I really do think it starts to become unhealthy for a person to start to go too far in searching for confirmation. I'm starting to think it may be time for me to take a break. 30 years is a long time to try the experiment. But part of me always thinks, "But maybe you should have waited 31 years!" Although, nobody would join the church if they used this reasoning I suppose. Catholics would just say I'll pray about Catholicism and wait to get an answer and if it doesn't come, I'll wait until it does. (Same with any religion).

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has to deal with this. Maybe somebody else who has can commiserate with me. Hahaha

Listen, my friend, for the first part of my life up until my mission years I was in complete darkness concerning knowledge of God. That's only the half of it as well, I'm not going into details there. Like you, I "worked hard" at seeking these answers and the heavens replied in silence, or at least in ways that I could not perceive. I wasn't a bad kid either, I had only missed 4 days of seminary across all 4 years, I was active in church and in scouts. I was everywhere I should have been with people I should have been around. I was just a kid trying to figure out how to do right. Despite all that, the silence from the heavens left me feeling worthless and rejected.

Around 17 years old, I went through a similar experience as you where I noticed people talking about their conversion experiences and ability to hear the voice of the Spirit, etc. I grew tired of hearing all these stories and wondered why I was left out. Was I doing something wrong? Did God not care about me? Was he even there at all? I decided that I was going to read the scriptures with real intent, although the King James English was very confusing, I was determined to devote myself to really experiencing them on my own.

I started in the New Testament and read the teachings of Jesus. Someone said to pray for guidance before I read each time, so I did. Then I got to Luke 24:6 and I read the words, "He is not here, but is risen..." and something happened. It was not emotion but something small yet discernable that communicated to my mind clearly that these words were true. Well, that had never happened before so I was intrigued. I persisted and bit by bit my understanding was enlightened and I marked my scriptures and cross-referenced them heavily. This continued into the mission field (my reasons for going were very personal and related to another string of experiences in my life) where as I voluntarily put myself aside, which anyone can do simply in their own daily lives, I began to see God working with other people and I was a co-participant in their blessings.

The real fulness of blessings were experienced as I continually pursued these ends culminating in forgiving everyone I could ever think of and specifically one last person who I felt had wronged me. Now what she did wasn't really that bad, but I held a grudge. Well, I let that go and let her know that she had my complete forgiveness and that any ill feelings had been transformed into a newfound love and respect.

Shortly after this time, the heavens opened and I was born of God. I won't detail the nature of that experience but it was the turning point of my life. It was then that my actions were guided by a genuine desire for good because I knew the depths of God's love for me, his overwhelming confirmation that I was redeemed and that nothing could keep me from him, and that he has this same love for all his children.

I have had other experiences. I don't have magnificent experiences very often these days. True, I often get caught up in just trying to provide for my family and be a dad, but I am at all times fueled by that rebirth and I see God's hand everywhere. I don't look for magic tricks and performances on God's part because with every physical sense of my body, and every spiritual sense, I know that I am surrounded by him and am in his care.

In Alma 5, Alma asks the brethren of the church "Have ye been spiritually born of God?" I'd ask you the same question and if not, I would make that your immediate quest and to not cease until you have obtained it. Rediscover the sermon on the mount and make that your standard of life. Walk that path, hold to the rod and continue through the darkness until you find the tree and partake of the fruit. All else will fall into place.

[Finrock]

Thanks for your testimony and experience. It sounds like our background is pretty similar. I may have started when I was younger than 17 though, but not sure the exact age.
I went through similar feelings when you say you "grew tire of hearing all these stories and wondered..." at a young age as well. Imagine now that you still didn't have any of that confirmation still 25 or so years after that. And you have retried this many times over the years with the same result.

It's kind of funny because yours is just another added to the list. It sounds like you were still pretty young when you received confirmation.

With regards to "I would make that your immediate quest and to not cease until you have obtained it." How far do you go? Quit my job and forget about my wife and all my kids to solely concentrate on that? Obviously there has to be a line drawn with how far a person goes. I have spent many many hours and nights searching for these things with nothing to speak of, that I recognize anyway.

30 years of that with much personal time devoted to all the callings over the years, I'm starting to wonder why. In fact, lately, the harder I work at it, by devoting more time to reading scriptures and praying fervently, the worse I feel about it all and the more unhappy I become. I really do think it starts to become unhealthy for a person to start to go too far in searching for confirmation. I'm starting to think it may be time for me to take a break. 30 years is a long time to try the experiment. But part of me always thinks, "But maybe you should have waited 31 years!" Although, nobody would join the church if they used this reasoning I suppose. Catholics would just say I'll pray about Catholicism and wait to get an answer and if it doesn't come, I'll wait until it does. (Same with any religion).

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has to deal with this. Maybe somebody else who has can commiserate with me. Hahaha

Listen, my friend, for the first part of my life up until my mission years I was in complete darkness concerning knowledge of God. That's only the half of it as well, I'm not going into details there. Like you, I "worked hard" at seeking these answers and the heavens replied in silence, or at least in ways that I could not perceive. I wasn't a bad kid either, I had only missed 4 days of seminary across all 4 years, I was active in church and in scouts. I was everywhere I should have been with people I should have been around. I was just a kid trying to figure out how to do right. Despite all that, the silence from the heavens left me feeling worthless and rejected.

Around 17 years old, I went through a similar experience as you where I noticed people talking about their conversion experiences and ability to hear the voice of the Spirit, etc. I grew tired of hearing all these stories and wondered why I was left out. Was I doing something wrong? Did God not care about me? Was he even there at all? I decided that I was going to read the scriptures with real intent, although the King James English was very confusing, I was determined to devote myself to really experiencing them on my own.

I started in the New Testament and read the teachings of Jesus. Someone said to pray for guidance before I read each time, so I did. Then I got to Luke 24:6 and I read the words, "He is not here, but is risen..." and something happened. It was not emotion but something small yet discernable that communicated to my mind clearly that these words were true. Well, that had never happened before so I was intrigued. I persisted and bit by bit my understanding was enlightened and I marked my scriptures and cross-referenced them heavily. This continued into the mission field (my reasons for going were very personal and related to another string of experiences in my life) where as I voluntarily put myself aside, which anyone can do simply in their own daily lives, I began to see God working with other people and I was a co-participant in their blessings.

The real fulness of blessings were experienced as I continually pursued these ends culminating in forgiving everyone I could ever think of and specifically one last person who I felt had wronged me. Now what she did wasn't really that bad, but I held a grudge. Well, I let that go and let her know that she had my complete forgiveness and that any ill feelings had been transformed into a newfound love and respect.

Shortly after this time, the heavens opened and I was born of God. I won't detail the nature of that experience but it was the turning point of my life. It was then that my actions were guided by a genuine desire for good because I knew the depths of God's love for me, his overwhelming confirmation that I was redeemed and that nothing could keep me from him, and that he has this same love for all his children.

I have had other experiences. I don't have magnificent experiences very often these days. True, I often get caught up in just trying to provide for my family and be a dad, but I am at all times fueled by that rebirth and I see God's hand everywhere. I don't look for magic tricks and performances on God's part because with every physical sense of my body, and every spiritual sense, I know that I am surrounded by him and am in his care.

In Alma 5, Alma asks the brethren of the church "Have ye been spiritually born of God?" I'd ask you the same question and if not, I would make that your immediate quest and to not cease until you have obtained it. Rediscover the sermon on the mount and make that your standard of life. Walk that path, hold to the rod and continue through the darkness until you find the tree and partake of the fruit. All else will fall into place.

Perhaps its time to surrender and give up on your efforts and allow Jesus to take over? No matter how hard we work and how much we strive, we aren't worthy of God's presence in our life. We are saved and made worthy by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, after all we can do. And all we can do is have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. A broken heart and a contrite spirit brings the fire and the Holy Ghost. Sometimes it takes life and life's circumstances to compel us to be humble but we can also choose to be humble. Humility is simply recognizing that you need God in your life and that without Him, you are nothing. So, give your life to Jesus. Trust in Him, in His goodness, mercy, grace, kindness, and love.

-Finrock

[HappyCamper8]

Thanks

Thanks for your testimony and experience. It sounds like our background is pretty similar. I may have started when I was younger than 17 though, but not sure the exact age.
I went through similar feelings when you say you "grew tire of hearing all these stories and wondered..." at a young age as well. Imagine now that you still didn't have any of that confirmation still 25 or so years after that. And you have retried this many times over the years with the same result.

It's kind of funny because yours is just another added to the list. It sounds like you were still pretty young when you received confirmation.

With regards to "I would make that your immediate quest and to not cease until you have obtained it." How far do you go? Quit my job and forget about my wife and all my kids to solely concentrate on that? Obviously there has to be a line drawn with how far a person goes. I have spent many many hours and nights searching for these things with nothing to speak of, that I recognize anyway.

30 years of that with much personal time devoted to all the callings over the years, I'm starting to wonder why. In fact, lately, the harder I work at it, by devoting more time to reading scriptures and praying fervently, the worse I feel about it all and the more unhappy I become. I really do think it starts to become unhealthy for a person to start to go too far in searching for confirmation. I'm starting to think it may be time for me to take a break. 30 years is a long time to try the experiment. But part of me always thinks, "But maybe you should have waited 31 years!" Although, nobody would join the church if they used this reasoning I suppose. Catholics would just say I'll pray about Catholicism and wait to get an answer and if it doesn't come, I'll wait until it does. (Same with any religion).

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has to deal with this. Maybe somebody else who has can commiserate with me. Hahaha

Listen, my friend, for the first part of my life up until my mission years I was in complete darkness concerning knowledge of God. That's only the half of it as well, I'm not going into details there. Like you, I "worked hard" at seeking these answers and the heavens replied in silence, or at least in ways that I could not perceive. I wasn't a bad kid either, I had only missed 4 days of seminary across all 4 years, I was active in church and in scouts. I was everywhere I should have been with people I should have been around. I was just a kid trying to figure out how to do right. Despite all that, the silence from the heavens left me feeling worthless and rejected.

Around 17 years old, I went through a similar experience as you where I noticed people talking about their conversion experiences and ability to hear the voice of the Spirit, etc. I grew tired of hearing all these stories and wondered why I was left out. Was I doing something wrong? Did God not care about me? Was he even there at all? I decided that I was going to read the scriptures with real intent, although the King James English was very confusing, I was determined to devote myself to really experiencing them on my own.

I started in the New Testament and read the teachings of Jesus. Someone said to pray for guidance before I read each time, so I did. Then I got to Luke 24:6 and I read the words, "He is not here, but is risen..." and something happened. It was not emotion but something small yet discernable that communicated to my mind clearly that these words were true. Well, that had never happened before so I was intrigued. I persisted and bit by bit my understanding was enlightened and I marked my scriptures and cross-referenced them heavily. This continued into the mission field (my reasons for going were very personal and related to another string of experiences in my life) where as I voluntarily put myself aside, which anyone can do simply in their own daily lives, I began to see God working with other people and I was a co-participant in their blessings.

The real fulness of blessings were experienced as I continually pursued these ends culminating in forgiving everyone I could ever think of and specifically one last person who I felt had wronged me. Now what she did wasn't really that bad, but I held a grudge. Well, I let that go and let her know that she had my complete forgiveness and that any ill feelings had been transformed into a newfound love and respect.

Shortly after this time, the heavens opened and I was born of God. I won't detail the nature of that experience but it was the turning point of my life. It was then that my actions were guided by a genuine desire for good because I knew the depths of God's love for me, his overwhelming confirmation that I was redeemed and that nothing could keep me from him, and that he has this same love for all his children.

I have had other experiences. I don't have magnificent experiences very often these days. True, I often get caught up in just trying to provide for my family and be a dad, but I am at all times fueled by that rebirth and I see God's hand everywhere. I don't look for magic tricks and performances on God's part because with every physical sense of my body, and every spiritual sense, I know that I am surrounded by him and am in his care.

In Alma 5, Alma asks the brethren of the church "Have ye been spiritually born of God?" I'd ask you the same question and if not, I would make that your immediate quest and to not cease until you have obtained it. Rediscover the sermon on the mount and make that your standard of life. Walk that path, hold to the rod and continue through the darkness until you find the tree and partake of the fruit. All else will fall into place.

Perhaps its time to surrender and give up on your efforts and allow Jesus to take over? No matter how hard we work and how much we strive, we aren't worthy of God's presence in our life. We are saved and made worthy by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, after all we can do. And all we can do is have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. A broken heart and a contrite spirit brings the fire and the Holy Ghost. Sometimes it takes life and life's circumstances to compel us to be humble but we can also choose to be humble. Humility is simply recognizing that you need God in your life and that without Him, you are nothing. So, give your life to Jesus. Trust in Him, in His goodness, mercy, grace, kindness, and love.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Thanks

Thanks for your testimony and experience. It sounds like our background is pretty similar. I may have started when I was younger than 17 though, but not sure the exact age.
I went through similar feelings when you say you "grew tire of hearing all these stories and wondered..." at a young age as well. Imagine now that you still didn't have any of that confirmation still 25 or so years after that. And you have retried this many times over the years with the same result.

It's kind of funny because yours is just another added to the list. It sounds like you were still pretty young when you received confirmation.

With regards to "I would make that your immediate quest and to not cease until you have obtained it." How far do you go? Quit my job and forget about my wife and all my kids to solely concentrate on that? Obviously there has to be a line drawn with how far a person goes. I have spent many many hours and nights searching for these things with nothing to speak of, that I recognize anyway.

30 years of that with much personal time devoted to all the callings over the years, I'm starting to wonder why. In fact, lately, the harder I work at it, by devoting more time to reading scriptures and praying fervently, the worse I feel about it all and the more unhappy I become. I really do think it starts to become unhealthy for a person to start to go too far in searching for confirmation. I'm starting to think it may be time for me to take a break. 30 years is a long time to try the experiment. But part of me always thinks, "But maybe you should have waited 31 years!" Although, nobody would join the church if they used this reasoning I suppose. Catholics would just say I'll pray about Catholicism and wait to get an answer and if it doesn't come, I'll wait until it does. (Same with any religion).

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has to deal with this. Maybe somebody else who has can commiserate with me. Hahaha

Listen, my friend, for the first part of my life up until my mission years I was in complete darkness concerning knowledge of God. That's only the half of it as well, I'm not going into details there. Like you, I "worked hard" at seeking these answers and the heavens replied in silence, or at least in ways that I could not perceive. I wasn't a bad kid either, I had only missed 4 days of seminary across all 4 years, I was active in church and in scouts. I was everywhere I should have been with people I should have been around. I was just a kid trying to figure out how to do right. Despite all that, the silence from the heavens left me feeling worthless and rejected.

Around 17 years old, I went through a similar experience as you where I noticed people talking about their conversion experiences and ability to hear the voice of the Spirit, etc. I grew tired of hearing all these stories and wondered why I was left out. Was I doing something wrong? Did God not care about me? Was he even there at all? I decided that I was going to read the scriptures with real intent, although the King James English was very confusing, I was determined to devote myself to really experiencing them on my own.

I started in the New Testament and read the teachings of Jesus. Someone said to pray for guidance before I read each time, so I did. Then I got to Luke 24:6 and I read the words, "He is not here, but is risen..." and something happened. It was not emotion but something small yet discernable that communicated to my mind clearly that these words were true. Well, that had never happened before so I was intrigued. I persisted and bit by bit my understanding was enlightened and I marked my scriptures and cross-referenced them heavily. This continued into the mission field (my reasons for going were very personal and related to another string of experiences in my life) where as I voluntarily put myself aside, which anyone can do simply in their own daily lives, I began to see God working with other people and I was a co-participant in their blessings.

The real fulness of blessings were experienced as I continually pursued these ends culminating in forgiving everyone I could ever think of and specifically one last person who I felt had wronged me. Now what she did wasn't really that bad, but I held a grudge. Well, I let that go and let her know that she had my complete forgiveness and that any ill feelings had been transformed into a newfound love and respect.

Shortly after this time, the heavens opened and I was born of God. I won't detail the nature of that experience but it was the turning point of my life. It was then that my actions were guided by a genuine desire for good because I knew the depths of God's love for me, his overwhelming confirmation that I was redeemed and that nothing could keep me from him, and that he has this same love for all his children.

I have had other experiences. I don't have magnificent experiences very often these days. True, I often get caught up in just trying to provide for my family and be a dad, but I am at all times fueled by that rebirth and I see God's hand everywhere. I don't look for magic tricks and performances on God's part because with every physical sense of my body, and every spiritual sense, I know that I am surrounded by him and am in his care.

In Alma 5, Alma asks the brethren of the church "Have ye been spiritually born of God?" I'd ask you the same question and if not, I would make that your immediate quest and to not cease until you have obtained it. Rediscover the sermon on the mount and make that your standard of life. Walk that path, hold to the rod and continue through the darkness until you find the tree and partake of the fruit. All else will fall into place.

Perhaps its time to surrender and give up on your efforts and allow Jesus to take over? No matter how hard we work and how much we strive, we aren't worthy of God's presence in our life. We are saved and made worthy by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, after all we can do. And all we can do is have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. A broken heart and a contrite spirit brings the fire and the Holy Ghost. Sometimes it takes life and life's circumstances to compel us to be humble but we can also choose to be humble. Humility is simply recognizing that you need God in your life and that without Him, you are nothing. So, give your life to Jesus. Trust in Him, in His goodness, mercy, grace, kindness, and love.

-Finrock

Just wanted to add. We don't "earn" God's approval. God loves you as you are. No person who has received a visit from God or the Spirit earned that visit because they were such good people. Remember, God condescends to speak and to interact with us weak and sinful mortals. But, if we don't believe that and instead we believe that we just have to work a bit harder, read a bit more, do triple callings, and make sure we are spotless before God will speak to us, well, we'll never believe that He will speak to us and we'll create this mental block that essentially separates us from God. We need to be desperate for grace.

-Finrock

[MMbelieve]

A thought that comes to mind is that I wonder if we are looking too much outside of ourselves? I believe as we progress spiritually, we BECOME the gospel much like Christ was the gospel.

30 years is a long time to search for confirmation while doing what is right the whole time to receive the desired confirmation (acts).

Perhaps you already know the truth (which is what allows you to continue to strive and do the standard acts)?

Maybe your getting a bad or negative type feeling the more you do because your offending the spirit by continuing to question when you already know or already have received? This has happened to me so I believe it is a possibility for others as well. God doesn't like to be "mocked" (not saying your mocking) so when he impresses to your heart but you continue to grow impatient with him for not giving an answer...you may be receiving some of the negative to yell you to knock it off and open your heart and mind?

I hope that is coming across clearly and not offensive at all, don't mean it to be.

I have wondered to if God sees me or likes me or loves me as he seems to others. I have a bit of a mental block or some other block of some sort and I believe that comes from my personal life and not in fact anything God is doing. If we are having other issues (all of us are to one degree or another) or are looking for "help" or someone to rescue us or whatever from the troubles we have, I believe we can create a block from the spirit.

One thing I can think to try is to drop our anger, bitterness, desire for revenge, expectations we place on others or whatever else that causes us to move our lives in a reaction to other people, and see if that helps to be more receptive to the simple and plain truths expressed by the spirit.

When we have needs or struggles we often look for it to all go away or be fixed by God or by others and we subconsciously raise the bar it must meet to be effective for our lives to heal us or whatever....this is and bad path and will result in misery!

What we need to do is accept our lives or what our trials are and have been in the past, simplify our needs and give love and kindness to others and pray for strength to endure. It's depressing sometimes but the path of Gethsemane (which we all must travel to some degree) is lonely and depressing as well. BUT...when we look back and see that we have carried it well and been good to others...we will be very proud of ourselves and that will confirm to our spirit that we have "become" instead of "received".

I sure hope that makes sense to someone...

[oneClimbs]

With regards to "I would make that your immediate quest and to not cease until you have obtained it." How far do you go? Quit my job and forget about my wife and all my kids to solely concentrate on that? Obviously there has to be a line drawn with how far a person goes. I have spent many many hours and nights searching for these things with nothing to speak of, that I recognize anyway.

No no no, that isn’t the way. I tell you what, if you’d like I’ll DM you my contact details and we can talk about on the phone sometime if you’d like.

That way I can listen to your whole story and see if there’s anything I could offer in the way of help.

[Alaris]

Moroni 10:3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

I've been blessed to see ~ 30 people receive a witness of the Book of Mormon. It doesn't take much time at all to put this promise to the test. It's not emotional based - it's not even "feelings" based though that's the best word to describe the experience. Emotional based / feelings based is a lie cleverly crafted by the devil and those who list to his spirit to counteract Moroni 10:3-5. Don't believe me? Google "Moroni 10:3-5." (quotes unnecessary)

The promise is spiritual. The still small voice is spiritual. The still small voice is a genius way to guide you to truth that is so subtle that you can jump off the righteousness train at any point with your agency intact and question every answer you ever received should you choose to do so.

However if you plan that seed, it will grow and you will realize that the seed is not emotional or feelings-based but an entirely new sixth sense - a communion with the Holy Spirit - a communion with heaven! That seed can grow until it branches out into every aspect of your life while you pray about nearly anything and everything and feel the Holy Spirit guide.

Alma 32:28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

[Rand]

... God will give what he will, but I can guarantee that you'll never experience anything "impressive" with the divine if you are not keeping the commandments and have them written on your heart. Do you care for people? Are you kind? Do you forgive? I'm not checklisting here, I'm asking if you truly seek to follow the will of the Lord in the little things. Humbly seek to serve others and forget about yourself and your desire for Hollywood-style experiences.

I've always been taught this concept growing up. I've spent 30-ish years of trying hard to fulfill all callings, multiple callings at times, (You'd be surprised to know me and what my callings have been and what it currently is) reading scriptures or at least listening every day, always pray everyday, morning, night, throughout the day. If I'm honest with myself, I'm not sure I've ever felt any correlation with this stuff and feeling it's all true. Many times through my life, I began to think I must be pretty wicked. At one point in my life, I began to fear maybe I am a son of perdition since the Heavens are always silent toward me, but seems to be available for everybody else. Everybody around me all talk about their experiences of coming to a point where they "had to know" and worked hard and bam, they had the spirit confirm. I've spent many nights "working hard" at getting some type of confirmation. Not sure anything has ever happened in terms of confrimation, at least I don't think I recognize it.

All this time, I've always decided to just keep plugging along as if I actually had confirmation, hoping this would constitute some faith that it would come some day. I'm afraid, I may be coming to my breaking point. I'm starting to think that others may be saying they have confirmation in an attempt at showing faith as well. Not sure what to think anymore. I know, I know, I've heard it here before. I'm sinning. I'm not trying hard enough. I'm not reading the scriptures enough. I'm not magnifying my calling enough. etc. etc. I don't think it's that simple anymore.

As I have looked to some in the scriptures, I have realized, many who were NOT keeping the commandments had "impressive" experiences with the divine. I could list them, but I'm sure if you think through them, you will find them.

Your challenge is the same in this way as my Fathers challenge. He is one of the finest people I have ever known. It is a proving. He never felt the experiences others felt. Had no confirming experiences, just like you. Don't take it personal. My Father has passed and is enjoying the fruits of his labors and enduring faith, despite not getting that faith reconfirmed like so many do. Be patient and endure. Keep doing what you have done. You have done well.

[HappyCamper8]

Thanks everybody. It certainly isn't easy and you have given me things to think about. I appreciate all the thoughts and the offer to talk.

[Thinker]

Thats all i want. closeness really feel close. I dont care if I see anything like visions. I love Love. and alot of it. and my love is always right there.????????

Yes - you feel love within you - not anywhere else.
“God is love.” 1John 4:16
“The kingdom (realm) of God is within you.” Luke 17:21

I could also quote some seemingly contradictory scriptures...
"For God so loved the world" -John 3:16
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” -1John 2:15

“Fear God.” -Matthew 10:28
“Love God.”-Matthew 22:37
“There is no fear in love.” -1 John 4:18

My point is to only trust in God - not imperfect people - not even prophets who wrote, translated or edited scripture. Study it out in your mind, and pray and you will feel God/love according to what resonates with you. Just because you don’t sense God the exact same way as another doesn’t mean it’s better or worse - we each are unique. Pray often. It really does make everything go better. I notice when I take brief moments to acknowledge and appreciate subtle spiritual help, I feel closer to God.

[gardener4life]

Sometimes it being hard to feel stuff can be because we're forced to be so busy to pay rents, mortgages. It doesn't mean we're wicked or bad. It's just harder to feel things when we're on the go. I hope people caught in this don't feel they are bad people. A lot of these types of people are very giving and giving to their families so they can have a life. It's just harder to feel when we're on the go but people like this are special too and making it so the rest of us can have a chance to feel by helping us with providing a place we can live.

[Rose Garden]

In my life, I've found that when I've tried and failed at accomplishing something again and again, it's because I believe some lie about the thing I'm trying to accomplish. I know spiritual experiences are real and I believe everyone can have them but not all do.

It might be worth it to start asking what it is that is blocking you and work on that instead of working on having an experience. You could try imagining yourself having a spiritual experience and see what thoughts and feelings come up. You could try and identify the ideas that go through your head when you read other's experiences. These might give you ideas on inner beliefs that are stopping you from having the experiences you desire.