LDS Freedom Forum

Juliet wrote: ↑November 14th, 2017, 8:46 pm Maybe the wheat struggles because it can sense evil but it can't see or identify the tares among them. Hold on folks, the church is true but the 2nd coming has not happened yet.

TrueIntent wrote: ↑November 14th, 2017, 9:05 pm

Juliet wrote: ↑November 14th, 2017, 8:46 pm Maybe the wheat struggles because it can sense evil but it can't see or identify the tares among them. Hold on folks, the church is true but the 2nd coming has not happened yet.

I just want to say....yes....I hope I'm a wheat...I strive to be...but either way it's clear...I've got trust issues...and it spilled over into my relationship with God...I used to equate God with the LDS Church.....not the same, and I try to separate the two..revelation is only as correct as the person receiving it and then interpreting it, That goes for all of us, I look forward to the day when the Way, the Truth, and the light is leading....I look forward to the day when I can have complete trust because HE is Truth. Until then,...I'll keep seeking. But I love the LDS church...it might not sound like it sometimes...that's just a reflection of someone who had their trust violated...it doesn't mean the church isn't a good institution because it is.

Sirocco wrote: ↑November 13th, 2017, 10:45 pm I like the church, I believe in a lot of what it teaches and feel good about that. I enjoy listening to the various leaders through the ages and that the internet has made that easier then ever.
However I refuse to physically go to the church.
I don't belong, (speaking from a personality angle) it gives terrible anxiety to do so and I'd rather not be harassed for being a miserable single nearing 30 lol.
No thank you, I'll keep my Sunday's and read the scripture in my home vs going out in the horrid cold. I don't need depression every Sunday to get closer to God.

TrueIntent wrote: ↑November 14th, 2017, 8:13 pm

eddie wrote: ↑November 9th, 2017, 12:33 pm Wonderful post, thank you.

Question, when we read the words of people here questioning our leaders , are we affiliating with apostates? Sometimes I don't even want the words in my head, although I'm not impressionable, some are.

If you can't listen to the words of an "apostate" without fear of it influencing you.....then I could see bigger issues for you in the future. I choose to read out of good books, words that bring us closer to Christ, that are faith promoting. See i would actually encourage you to face the words of those things you fear directly. How do you expect to discern the words of a korihor....How? All through the Book of Mormon there are counterfeit Prophets and teachers, the Book of Mormon gives us examples such as Korihor to help us discern in our life at this time. see, those seeking to diceive you are the ones who will flatter you with their words.l.you won't see it coming. I choose to confront those things directly and take it to the scriptures.....we shouldn't be afraid of information.....how would you discern Christ if he came....the entire Jewish leadership claimed he was a blasphemer and a fraud. Only those who were willing to listen would scratch the surface of whether or not he was....we shouldn't be afraid of people and information, instead we should build ourselves up to be able to discern the information.

I don't worry whether or not the conversations I have are with someone who has diffenrt views or even carries the "label" of an apostate.....I worry about whether or not a person influences me and leads me to believe something contrary to scriptures.....follow the spirit, and study the scriptures...frame all your beliefs around the teachings of Jesus Christ....He should be our filter and lens. Remember, even Jesus Christ was labeled an "apostate"...and so was his apostles .it's just a label....discern the message, and u will find true messengers. ..there are prophets and false prophets....discern the message, don't adopt someone else's label for an individual. You may miss out on a true messenger.

silk wrote: ↑November 14th, 2017, 6:33 pm

Finrock wrote: ↑November 14th, 2017, 1:59 pm If you are implying that God can't do His own work when you say there is only one person who holds those keys, I believe this idea to be in error. It seems from your post that you are denying that God has authority, that He has keys, and that He can lay His hands on people, seal them, and perform ordinances; that these can only be done by a single mortal and in only temporary structures build by mortal hands.

-Finrock

I don't think anyone is saying that God can't, just that He won't interfere without specific reason. After all, the world ended up in apostasy for hundreds of years, and He chose to let it happen. Why? I have no idea, but I trust in God and His plan.

We need to not only believe in God, we need to believe him. Do you believe him when he spoke in D&C 65?

2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.

I think it's apparent that He expects mankind to use the keys to the best of their ability to preach the gospel and do temple work for both the living and the dead.

Juliet wrote: ↑November 14th, 2017, 8:46 pm Maybe the wheat struggles because it can sense evil but it can't see or identify the tares among them. Hold on folks, the church is true but the 2nd coming has not happened yet.

TrueIntent wrote: ↑November 14th, 2017, 8:46 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑November 14th, 2017, 8:30 pm Do you ever scratch your head after reading some of these responses and wonder how in the world people draw conclusions about the intented purpose of a post?

Maybe I need to be a better communicator or just spell things out a little clearer? A forum is great for many reasons but sometimes I wish I could have an old fashion face to face conversation.

Or maybe speak directly instead of passively. Like....is the comment above in reference to what or whom? Or why did you just make that comment.

JaredBees wrote: ↑November 15th, 2017, 10:59 am

Juliet wrote: ↑November 14th, 2017, 8:46 pm Maybe the wheat struggles because it can sense evil but it can't see or identify the tares among them. Hold on folks, the church is true but the 2nd coming has not happened yet.

"The church is true" statement is disruptive to a person and their spiritual necessary ascendancy more often than not . This conviction more often than not served as a stumbling-stone anciently as it does similarly today... I would guess when it comes to understanding the how and the why and the what of living celestial law which as a result grants eternal life --- church membership comprehending of this is low. --- Read D&C 88 from verse 1 to somewhere around verse 24 and ask yourself does the church teach this? I sincerely with no sense of satisfaction at the negative result would encourage you to ask the question to the home teaching Temple attending church attending group of people in the church who take great satisfaction of knowing "the church is true" if they understand and have received the blessings of this clear Doctrine as outlined in 88 . Too often and correct me if I'm wrong "the church is true" statement leads people to not be independently converted to independently know holy writ ( the words of Jesus which would teach them all that they must do) like they should? Nephi even lamented towards the end of his writings that he was prohibited to say more because he saw a knew that people (you and me etc) wouldn't know and search out and understand true doctrine when it was spoken and written in plainness...

2 nephi 32


For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

drtanner wrote: ↑November 14th, 2017, 8:30 pm Do you ever scratch your head after reading some of these responses and wonder how in the world people draw conclusions about the intented purpose of a post?

Maybe I need to be a better communicator or just spell things out a little clearer? A forum is great for many reasons but sometimes I wish I could have an old fashion face to face conversation.

topcat wrote: ↑November 17th, 2017, 11:26 am I just discovered an interesting dialogue on tithing:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=28207&hilit=tithing+surplus

It's a very long thread, but enlightening in many ways, esp during this time of tithing settlement. That thread is connected to this thread in many ways.

About this post, one question I have is: why is it important to gain a testimony of the current LDS Church? Is our salvation in jeopardy without such a testimony? Or is our salvation safe with a faith in Christ? Our salvation is in jeapardy without real faith in Christ, sincere repentance, and ordinances done without proper authority (which is why it is important to gain a testimony that the authority can be found in the current church and did not cease with the church in Jospeh’s time)

And why set today's church apart from previous eras of the modern LDS Church, meaning from Joseph's day to the present (or "current" Church)? Was the "previous (non current) Church" true and not the current one? The only reason to make a distinction is to address those who claim that the current church is in apostasy

Main thing though is, Is there a vital importance to gaining a testimony of the current Church? yes

To help me even understand my question, could you help me define what "current Church" means. Do you mean the Brethren? Or DrTanner, do mean something else?

If you mean the Brethren, then the real point you're making becomes, How to gain a testimony of the current Brethren. Is this correct? no I mean church, it is not the church of the brethren, it is the church of Jesus Christ

If that is the question, and we are studying it out in our minds (per DC 8 and DC 9), then does that mean we should look at evidence that the Brethren are "true"? And if so, what evidence is there to make the case that they are true?

Just thinking out loud here. Thank you.

Topcat

drtanner wrote: ↑November 18th, 2017, 8:13 am

topcat wrote: ↑November 17th, 2017, 11:26 am If you mean the Brethren, then the real point you're making becomes, How to gain a testimony of the current Brethren. Is this correct? no I mean church, it is not the church of the brethren, it is the church of Jesus Christ

3 Nephi 28:34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

drtanner wrote: ↑November 9th, 2017, 11:58 am But there is a way to gain a testimony of the current church....

icarus wrote: ↑December 6th, 2017, 5:48 pm I have enjoyed this thread and thank everyone.

I have been contemplating similar thoughts of the OP and have been wondering what everyone means by "church" or even D&C 1.

In my mind what I have thought has considered the legal entity, the organization or leadership and also the members (top to bottom) and I have come to favor the meaning as members.

There are of course nuances such as "I'm going to church" which IS the building imo. If we say, "The church does or does not approve of something", then is that not the hierarchy? And what about referencing the church in a particular town? Is that the building or the congregation?

The concept of "church" in the New Testament, to me, refers to the congregations, or the people.

When we talk about authority though it's the leadership as I'm seeing it.

So lately when I hear, "the church is true" I wonder what is really being said. To me it's kinda like someone on Noah's Arc saying I know the Arc is true.... (good ship Zion). More can be said but that's the gist of my thoughts.

drtanner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2017, 9:29 pm The church = the organization authorized by God to confer his priesthood and with that authority administer ordinances of salvation.

icarus wrote: ↑December 6th, 2017, 9:48 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2017, 9:29 pm The church = the organization authorized by God to confer his priesthood and with that authority administer ordinances of salvation.

Sooo,... the hierarchy who hold the keys or the priesthood in general?

icarus wrote: ↑December 6th, 2017, 9:48 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2017, 9:29 pm The church = the organization authorized by God to confer his priesthood and with that authority administer ordinances of salvation.

Sooo,... the hierarchy who hold the keys or the priesthood in general?

icarus wrote: ↑December 7th, 2017, 2:42 pm Thank you drtanner, I appreciate your response.

Well,... to me the Priesthood "in general" is the whole priesthood body (all quorums top to bottom. As opposed to the key holders or just the 15 depending on one's point of view.

D&C 124:123 Verily I say unto you, I now give unto you the officers belonging to my Priesthood, that ye may hold the keys thereof, even the Priesthood which is after the order of Melchizedek, which is after the order of mine Only Begotten Son.

142 And again, I say unto you, Samuel Rolfe and his counselors for priests, and the president of the teachers and his counselors, and also the president of the deacons and his counselors, and also the president of the stake and his counselors.

143 The above offices I have given unto you, and the keys thereof, for helps and for governments, for the work of the ministry and the perfecting of my saints.

D&C 65:2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

D&C 132:7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

icarus wrote: ↑December 6th, 2017, 5:48 pm I have enjoyed this thread and thank everyone.

I have been contemplating similar thoughts of the OP and have been wondering what everyone means by "church" or even D&C 1.

In my mind what I have thought has considered the legal entity, the organization or leadership and also the members (top to bottom) and I have come to favor the meaning as members.

There are of course nuances such as "I'm going to church" which IS the building imo. If we say, "The church does or does not approve of something", then is that not the hierarchy? And what about referencing the church in a particular town? Is that the building or the congregation?

The concept of "church" in the New Testament, to me, refers to the congregations, or the people.

When we talk about authority though it's the leadership as I'm seeing it.

So lately when I hear, "the church is true" I wonder what is really being said. To me it's kinda like someone on Noah's Arc saying I know the Arc is true.... (good ship Zion). More can be said but that's the gist of my thoughts.