How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

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TrueIntent
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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby TrueIntent » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:05 pm

Juliet wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:46 pm
Maybe the wheat struggles because it can sense evil but it can't see or identify the tares among them. Hold on folks, the church is true but the 2nd coming has not happened yet.
I just want to say....yes....I hope I'm a wheat...I strive to be...but either way it's clear...I've got trust issues...and it spilled over into my relationship with God...I used to equate God with the LDS Church.....not the same, and I try to separate the two..revelation is only as correct as the person receiving it and then interpreting it, That goes for all of us, I look forward to the day when the Way, the Truth, and the light is leading....I look forward to the day when I can have complete trust because HE is Truth. Until then,...I'll keep seeking. But I love the LDS church...it might not sound like it sometimes...that's just a reflection of someone who had their trust violated...it doesn't mean the church isn't a good institution because it is.

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Juliet
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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby Juliet » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:14 pm

TrueIntent wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:05 pm
Juliet wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:46 pm
Maybe the wheat struggles because it can sense evil but it can't see or identify the tares among them. Hold on folks, the church is true but the 2nd coming has not happened yet.
I just want to say....yes....I hope I'm a wheat...I strive to be...but either way it's clear...I've got trust issues...and it spilled over into my relationship with God...I used to equate God with the LDS Church.....not the same, and I try to separate the two..revelation is only as correct as the person receiving it and then interpreting it, That goes for all of us, I look forward to the day when the Way, the Truth, and the light is leading....I look forward to the day when I can have complete trust because HE is Truth. Until then,...I'll keep seeking. But I love the LDS church...it might not sound like it sometimes...that's just a reflection of someone who had their trust violated...it doesn't mean the church isn't a good institution because it is.
You are OK and understood. I have had major trust issues with God too. Didn't even Jesus have a one on one where He questioned God's actions? But finally He accepted God's will.

I have faith that we all want to find joy. That desire in each of us is going to get the world straightened out one way or another. Until then, I think sometimes even the bad guys wish that the good guys would hurry up and win because then we can all be happy and not worry about the control the bad guys seek for so much to compensate for their own misery.

On The Fringe
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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby On The Fringe » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:58 am

Sirocco wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:45 pm
I like the church, I believe in a lot of what it teaches and feel good about that. I enjoy listening to the various leaders through the ages and that the internet has made that easier then ever.
However I refuse to physically go to the church.
I don't belong, (speaking from a personality angle) it gives terrible anxiety to do so and I'd rather not be harassed for being a miserable single nearing 30 lol.
No thank you, I'll keep my Sunday's and read the scripture in my home vs going out in the horrid cold. I don't need depression every Sunday to get closer to God.
Hey, I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for, but there are mid-singles branches here and there. I know for a fact there is one somewhere in Illinois and positive there are some in California and probably Utah. They are for those aged 30-45. It might not be much better with your anxiety but it's possible you may not feel as judged as you may in a normal Ward.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby eddie » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:56 am

TrueIntent wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:13 pm
eddie wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:33 pm
Wonderful post, thank you.

Question, when we read the words of people here questioning our leaders , are we affiliating with apostates? Sometimes I don't even want the words in my head, although I'm not impressionable, some are.
If you can't listen to the words of an "apostate" without fear of it influencing you.....then I could see bigger issues for you in the future. I choose to read out of good books, words that bring us closer to Christ, that are faith promoting. See i would actually encourage you to face the words of those things you fear directly. How do you expect to discern the words of a korihor....How? All through the Book of Mormon there are counterfeit Prophets and teachers, the Book of Mormon gives us examples such as Korihor to help us discern in our life at this time. see, those seeking to diceive you are the ones who will flatter you with their words.l.you won't see it coming. I choose to confront those things directly and take it to the scriptures.....we shouldn't be afraid of information.....how would you discern Christ if he came....the entire Jewish leadership claimed he was a blasphemer and a fraud. Only those who were willing to listen would scratch the surface of whether or not he was....we shouldn't be afraid of people and information, instead we should build ourselves up to be able to discern the information.

I don't worry whether or not the conversations I have are with someone who has diffenrt views or even carries the "label" of an apostate.....I worry about whether or not a person influences me and leads me to believe something contrary to scriptures.....follow the spirit, and study the scriptures...frame all your beliefs around the teachings of Jesus Christ....He should be our filter and lens. Remember, even Jesus Christ was labeled an "apostate"...and so was his apostles .it's just a label....discern the message, and u will find true messengers. ..there are prophets and false prophets....discern the message, don't adopt someone else's label for an individual. You may miss out on a true messenger.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby Finrock » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:00 am

silk wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:33 pm
Finrock wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:59 pm
If you are implying that God can't do His own work when you say there is only one person who holds those keys, I believe this idea to be in error. It seems from your post that you are denying that God has authority, that He has keys, and that He can lay His hands on people, seal them, and perform ordinances; that these can only be done by a single mortal and in only temporary structures build by mortal hands.

-Finrock
I don't think anyone is saying that God can't, just that He won't interfere without specific reason. After all, the world ended up in apostasy for hundreds of years, and He chose to let it happen. Why? I have no idea, but I trust in God and His plan.

We need to not only believe in God, we need to believe him. Do you believe him when he spoke in D&C 65?
2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.
I think it's apparent that He expects mankind to use the keys to the best of their ability to preach the gospel and do temple work for both the living and the dead.
First, God didn't choose to let the apostasy happen. How would God stop apostasy and still remain God? Man decided/chose to apostatize from God. God can't stop man from not choosing Him over something else, without ceasing to be God. The apostasy has nothing to do with God choosing to let it happen. I guarantee that God's arm was outstretched at all times to anyone who would take hold.

We really aren't talking about the same thing, I don't think. God doing His work, which is brining to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, is not God interfering. Because a master hires servants to help in doing his work, doesn't then mean that the master is no longer working, can't work, or won't work. The servants that are hired are delegated to help assist in the work, but salvation comes from Jesus Christ only. Man can't save other men. Man can't seal another man. Only the Holy Spirit of Promise seals us. Only God saves us and ratifies our absolutely minor and largely inconsistent efforts.

It is not apparent from that scripture that because God delegates keys that He has now finished His work and is no longer intimately and personally involved in His work. It just means that God delegated keys to man so they can assist in the work.

-Finrock
"You can't reason with a wolf" -rewcox

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby JaredBees » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:59 am

Juliet wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:46 pm
Maybe the wheat struggles because it can sense evil but it can't see or identify the tares among them. Hold on folks, the church is true but the 2nd coming has not happened yet.
"The church is true" statement is disruptive to a person and their spiritual necessary ascendancy more often than not . This conviction more often than not served as a stumbling-stone anciently as it does similarly today... I would guess when it comes to understanding the how and the why and the what of living celestial law which as a result grants eternal life --- church membership comprehending of this is low. --- Read D&C 88 from verse 1 to somewhere around verse 24 and ask yourself does the church teach this? I sincerely with no sense of satisfaction at the negative result would encourage you to ask the question to the home teaching Temple attending church attending group of people in the church who take great satisfaction of knowing "the church is true" if they understand and have received the blessings of this clear Doctrine as outlined in 88 . Too often and correct me if I'm wrong "the church is true" statement leads people to not be independently converted to independently know holy writ ( the words of Jesus which would teach them all that they must do) like they should? Nephi even lamented towards the end of his writings that he was prohibited to say more because he saw a knew that people (you and me etc) wouldn't know and search out and understand true doctrine when it was spoken and written in plainness...

2 nephi 32


For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.
Negative thoughts produce negative words which produces negative actions. Purge the negativity. Dwell in Christ, and reflect his bidding: Moroni 7:45-48.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby eddie » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:13 pm

TrueIntent wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:46 pm
drtanner wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:30 pm
Do you ever scratch your head after reading some of these responses and wonder how in the world people draw conclusions about the intented purpose of a post?

Maybe I need to be a better communicator or just spell things out a little clearer? A forum is great for many reasons but sometimes I wish I could have an old fashion face to face conversation.
Or maybe speak directly instead of passively. Like....is the comment above in reference to what or whom? Or why did you just make that comment.
Another head scratcher! 👀

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby Juliet » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:16 pm

JaredBees wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:59 am
Juliet wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:46 pm
Maybe the wheat struggles because it can sense evil but it can't see or identify the tares among them. Hold on folks, the church is true but the 2nd coming has not happened yet.
"The church is true" statement is disruptive to a person and their spiritual necessary ascendancy more often than not . This conviction more often than not served as a stumbling-stone anciently as it does similarly today... I would guess when it comes to understanding the how and the why and the what of living celestial law which as a result grants eternal life --- church membership comprehending of this is low. --- Read D&C 88 from verse 1 to somewhere around verse 24 and ask yourself does the church teach this? I sincerely with no sense of satisfaction at the negative result would encourage you to ask the question to the home teaching Temple attending church attending group of people in the church who take great satisfaction of knowing "the church is true" if they understand and have received the blessings of this clear Doctrine as outlined in 88 . Too often and correct me if I'm wrong "the church is true" statement leads people to not be independently converted to independently know holy writ ( the words of Jesus which would teach them all that they must do) like they should? Nephi even lamented towards the end of his writings that he was prohibited to say more because he saw a knew that people (you and me etc) wouldn't know and search out and understand true doctrine when it was spoken and written in plainness...

2 nephi 32


For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.
Sure, I think that is a fair judgement. The church is true is a training wheels statement. I actually went through a crisis and I needed to know again if I had a testimony of the church. After researching, and yes, I did read all the anti mormon lit, I fell asleep. In my dream, I saw a building that went into heaven. Then I was given the words, "The high church of God." Just because the church has doctrine, doesn't mean people want it.

Church for many is a place where they feel differently, where the spirit can touch them and help them through day to day. For others, it gives them keys to unlocking mysteries. It really must be an individual process how and when we get into heaven, when the deeper doctrines become what we taste after, or the simple doctrines are all we can digest.

No matter how much doctrine we have thrown our way, it still is an individual process to receive it and knit it into our daily lives.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby JaredBees » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:10 pm

This past fast and testimony Sunday much like many others--- a barrage of, I kid you not, 12 kids lined up to deliver the tried-and-true line "I know the church is true". Cute little things.

What we have through the resources of the restoration brought forth by Joseph Smith is amazing.

Being "knit" / yoked to Christ AS he manifests himself in the Church without a question of thinking IS beneficial. Juliet, lets have fun for second :) I'm going to throw out this wild hypothetical----- lets say you were stranded on a desert island with the amenities of food enough survival accoutrements ---like until you died--- :o. I tell you with great confidence --If all you had was prayer you would be able to thrive in the goodness of Jesus. If you had all the above-mentioned stuff plus the Book of Mormon. Wow... holy and sacred would that church be where Juliet offered up / consecrated her faith and soul to Jesus living on that there island. As you moved forward exceedingly great faith in that isolation Every Blessing mentioned in the Book of Mormon would be offered you eventually. You would learn much like Nephi and Alma and very many blessed people in the Book of Mormon that you were not alone that Angels would attend and be companions with you on sacred occasions. Yes, it's totally safe to say that your heart's desire to be administered to by Jesus similar to the brother of Jared would occur... leading up to this experience you will would have been born of God and filled with the fire and joy and great love that comes through receiving the Holy Ghost. The gifts of the Spirit through your steadfast prayer and Devotion to Jesus as you understand it through what you read in the Book of Mormon / personal revelation would aid you tremendously in your unfortunate yet fortunate circumstance of being alone on this island . The purity of your worship to Jesus Christ and his love and goodness in your life would cause you maybe at some point to say "wait a minute where is that church which is the byproduct of these blessings. Then you would rejoice with amazement and joy and probably say something like "hold on--- Jesus ---Jesus is my Lord my savior my my rock my sure Foundation and friend he is The Giver of this goodness of my pretty incredible ability to Joy in this interesting journey..."


That is and would be a saweet testimony of TRUTH gained! We all will have these sweet blessings in this life or on our island of isolation llike imagined up scenario Juliiet on her deserted island if we would be devoted and believing. Where Jesus is--- be it in our prayer closet or church or Juliet's Island or work and play etc where He is ----there his desired for blessings will be.


D&C 109:

Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;
9 That your incomings may be in the name of the Lord, that your outgoings may be in the name of the Lord, that all your salutations may be in the name of the Lord, with uplifted hands unto the Most High

https://youtu.be/bbh43MGoigw

https://youtu.be/nQWFzMvCfLE

I got to figure out a good little jingle to Gilligan's / Juliet's Island now.

: )

And yes you are welcome for the sufficient amount food and survival gear at your disposal for you! ;)


Had to put this cool quote in as well. I think it applies nicely...

Thomas Griffith, an editor for Time magazine some years ago, wrote of our era: “We are so caught up in the complexity and clamor of our way of life that we do not realize how much all of these powerful efforts to attract or divert us are a tax on our spirit: they do a double harm, in the triviality of what they offer and the fatigue which they engender, that keeps us from doing something more profitable with our time. Even to screen out that portion of our culture that we do not want becomes an effort of will. Simplicity of life is no longer ours to begin with, as it was in the days of remote farms, and of school lessons written on the back of a shovel. In a world of congestion, shattering noise and an infinity of seductions, we must, in the midst of a carnival, find and insist upon our own decent simplicity” (The Waist-High Culture [1959], 188).
Negative thoughts produce negative words which produces negative actions. Purge the negativity. Dwell in Christ, and reflect his bidding: Moroni 7:45-48.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby topcat » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:26 am

I just discovered an interesting dialogue on tithing:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=28207&hilit=tithing+surplus

It's a very long thread, but enlightening in many ways, esp during this time of tithing settlement. That thread is connected to this thread in many ways.

About this post, one question I have is: why is it important to gain a testimony of the current LDS Church? Is our salvation in jeopardy without such a testimony? Or is our salvation safe with a faith in Christ?

And why set today's church apart from previous eras of the modern LDS Church, meaning from Joseph's day to the present (or "current" Church)? Was the "previous (non current) Church" true and not the current one?

Main thing though is, Is there a vital importance to gaining a testimony of the current Church?

To help me even understand my question, could you help me define what "current Church" means. Do you mean the Brethren? Or DrTanner, do mean something else?

If you mean the Brethren, then the real point you're making becomes, How to gain a testimony of the current Brethren. Is this correct?

If that is the question, and we are studying it out in our minds (per DC 8 and DC 9), then does that mean we should look at evidence that the Brethren are "true"? And if so, what evidence is there to make the case that they are true?

Just thinking out loud here. Thank you.

Topcat

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AI2.0
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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby AI2.0 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:29 pm

drtanner wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:30 pm
Do you ever scratch your head after reading some of these responses and wonder how in the world people draw conclusions about the intented purpose of a post?

Maybe I need to be a better communicator or just spell things out a little clearer? A forum is great for many reasons but sometimes I wish I could have an old fashion face to face conversation.

The forum is populated by a number of people who lack inspiration and are confused and even struggling with personal apostasy and this is often apparent in their comments (Before anyone on the thread get's their dander up, I was not referring to any particular posts on THIS thread--I'm speaking of a general observation after years of participation here) I don't think there is any problem with your ability to communicate, but if we were all face to face, we'd definitely be able to better communicate. I also find that some people are very literal and miss nuance--others tend to pick apart OPs to find something they can disagree with.
"...the ultimate most annoying person on this forum, A.120!"

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby drtanner » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:13 am

topcat wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:26 am
I just discovered an interesting dialogue on tithing:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=28207&hilit=tithing+surplus

It's a very long thread, but enlightening in many ways, esp during this time of tithing settlement. That thread is connected to this thread in many ways.

About this post, one question I have is: why is it important to gain a testimony of the current LDS Church? Is our salvation in jeopardy without such a testimony? Or is our salvation safe with a faith in Christ? Our salvation is in jeapardy without real faith in Christ, sincere repentance, and ordinances done without proper authority (which is why it is important to gain a testimony that the authority can be found in the current church and did not cease with the church in Jospeh’s time)

And why set today's church apart from previous eras of the modern LDS Church, meaning from Joseph's day to the present (or "current" Church)? Was the "previous (non current) Church" true and not the current one? The only reason to make a distinction is to address those who claim that the current church is in apostasy

Main thing though is, Is there a vital importance to gaining a testimony of the current Church? yes

To help me even understand my question, could you help me define what "current Church" means. Do you mean the Brethren? Or DrTanner, do mean something else?

If you mean the Brethren, then the real point you're making becomes, How to gain a testimony of the current Brethren. Is this correct? no I mean church, it is not the church of the brethren, it is the church of Jesus Christ

If that is the question, and we are studying it out in our minds (per DC 8 and DC 9), then does that mean we should look at evidence that the Brethren are "true"? And if so, what evidence is there to make the case that they are true?

Just thinking out loud here. Thank you.

Topcat

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby brianj » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:47 pm

drtanner wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:13 am
topcat wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:26 am
If you mean the Brethren, then the real point you're making becomes, How to gain a testimony of the current Brethren. Is this correct? no I mean church, it is not the church of the brethren, it is the church of Jesus Christ
I feel a desire to add that if one has a testimony of Jesus Christ, of the Book of Mormon, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really is the church of Jesus Christ and that He is at the head, then we will be able to accept that leaders, from organizations within our ward to the First Presidency, have been called by God and are accountable to Him for their actions in their callings.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby drtanner » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:15 am

Another great reason to find out if the current church is true.
3 Nephi 28:34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby topcat » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:35 am

Thank you for your responses.

This may be a stupid request, but I was challenged by a fellow friend at church to show him a quote where one of the current apostles testified that HE was a prophet, seer, and revelator. I figured that was easy enough, but so far I've only been able to find quotes where a given apostle testifies that OTHERS of his body are prophets, seers, and revelators. I can't find an example where one SELF proclaims, referring solely to himself.

I've reviewed several General Conferences looking for one man (one apostle) proclaiming HE is such, but haven't had any luck yet. But I know such a testimony is out there. I just want to show my friend the quotes are there. Can somebody help me, by sharing the link where an apostle says "I" am a prophet, seer, and revelator?

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby BackBlast » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:04 pm

drtanner wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:58 am
But there is a way to gain a testimony of the current church....
I like your method. I would add to it that it is in the current LDS Church that I have had the best associations or people in my life. There are plenty of tares to go around at the wards and stakes, with pride among some. But having worked at the Church (with all it's warts :), I was among professionals who were all temple worthy and generally striving to live how they should. I've never felt that level of trust and brotherhood among any other group. When you really look at the creme of the various wards and stakes, the people really are amazing. Good fruits...

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby icarus » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:48 pm

I have enjoyed this thread and thank everyone.

I have been contemplating similar thoughts of the OP and have been wondering what everyone means by "church" or even D&C 1.

In my mind what I have thought has considered the legal entity, the organization or leadership and also the members (top to bottom) and I have come to favor the meaning as members.

There are of course nuances such as "I'm going to church" which IS the building imo. If we say, "The church does or does not approve of something", then is that not the hierarchy? And what about referencing the church in a particular town? Is that the building or the congregation?

The concept of "church" in the New Testament, to me, refers to the congregations, or the people.

When we talk about authority though it's the leadership as I'm seeing it.

So lately when I hear, "the church is true" I wonder what is really being said. To me it's kinda like someone on Noah's Arc saying I know the Arc is true.... (good ship Zion). More can be said but that's the gist of my thoughts.
"wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and the very points of his doctrine, that they may know how to come unto him and be saved." 1 Nephi 15:14

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby drtanner » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:29 pm

icarus wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:48 pm
I have enjoyed this thread and thank everyone.

I have been contemplating similar thoughts of the OP and have been wondering what everyone means by "church" or even D&C 1.

In my mind what I have thought has considered the legal entity, the organization or leadership and also the members (top to bottom) and I have come to favor the meaning as members.

There are of course nuances such as "I'm going to church" which IS the building imo. If we say, "The church does or does not approve of something", then is that not the hierarchy? And what about referencing the church in a particular town? Is that the building or the congregation?

The concept of "church" in the New Testament, to me, refers to the congregations, or the people.

When we talk about authority though it's the leadership as I'm seeing it.

So lately when I hear, "the church is true" I wonder what is really being said. To me it's kinda like someone on Noah's Arc saying I know the Arc is true.... (good ship Zion). More can be said but that's the gist of my thoughts.
“The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.”

The Prophet further records: “We now proceeded to call out and ordain some others of the brethren to different offices of the Priesthood according as the Spirit manifested unto us: and after a happy time spent in witnessing and feeling for ourselves the powers and blessings of the Holy Ghost, through the grace of God bestowed upon us, we dismissed with the pleasing knowledge that we were now individually members of, and acknowledged of God, ‘The Church of Jesus Christ,’ organized in accordance with commandments and revelations given by Him to ourselves in these last days, as well as according to the order of the Church as recorded in the New Testament.” (DHC 1:79.)

The church = the organization authorized by God to confer his priesthood and with that authority administer ordinances of salvation.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby icarus » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:48 pm

drtanner wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:29 pm
The church = the organization authorized by God to confer his priesthood and with that authority administer ordinances of salvation.
Sooo,... the hierarchy who hold the keys or the priesthood in general?
"wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and the very points of his doctrine, that they may know how to come unto him and be saved." 1 Nephi 15:14

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby drtanner » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:17 pm

icarus wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:48 pm
drtanner wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:29 pm
The church = the organization authorized by God to confer his priesthood and with that authority administer ordinances of salvation.
Sooo,... the hierarchy who hold the keys or the priesthood in general?
What is your definition of the priesthood in general?

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby drtanner » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:57 am

icarus wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:48 pm
drtanner wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:29 pm
The church = the organization authorized by God to confer his priesthood and with that authority administer ordinances of salvation.
Sooo,... the hierarchy who hold the keys or the priesthood in general?
Still waiting for your definition of the priesthood in general, but in the meantime this is a good scripture in the D&C for some context to your question.

11 ​Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to ​​​preach​ my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ​​​ordained​ by some one who has ​​​authority​, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby icarus » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:42 pm

Thank you drtanner, I appreciate your response.

Well,... to me the Priesthood "in general" is the whole priesthood body (all quorums top to bottom. As opposed to the key holders or just the 15 depending on one's point of view.
"wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and the very points of his doctrine, that they may know how to come unto him and be saved." 1 Nephi 15:14

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby drtanner » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:54 pm

icarus wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:42 pm
Thank you drtanner, I appreciate your response.

Well,... to me the Priesthood "in general" is the whole priesthood body (all quorums top to bottom. As opposed to the key holders or just the 15 depending on one's point of view.
Thank you. Without the keys, the church would not have priesthood in general. Here are some scriptures that may help:
D&C 124:123 Verily I say unto you, I now give unto you the officers belonging to my Priesthood, that ye may hold the keys thereof, even the Priesthood which is after the order of Melchizedek, which is after the order of mine Only Begotten Son.

142 And again, I say unto you, Samuel Rolfe and his counselors for priests, and the president of the teachers and his counselors, and also the president of the deacons and his counselors, and also the president of the stake and his counselors.

143 The above offices I have given unto you, and the keys thereof, for helps and for governments, for the work of the ministry and the perfecting of my saints.
D&C 65:2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
D&C 132:7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby Irrelevant » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:46 pm

icarus wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:48 pm
I have enjoyed this thread and thank everyone.

I have been contemplating similar thoughts of the OP and have been wondering what everyone means by "church" or even D&C 1.

In my mind what I have thought has considered the legal entity, the organization or leadership and also the members (top to bottom) and I have come to favor the meaning as members.

There are of course nuances such as "I'm going to church" which IS the building imo. If we say, "The church does or does not approve of something", then is that not the hierarchy? And what about referencing the church in a particular town? Is that the building or the congregation?

The concept of "church" in the New Testament, to me, refers to the congregations, or the people.

When we talk about authority though it's the leadership as I'm seeing it.

So lately when I hear, "the church is true" I wonder what is really being said. To me it's kinda like someone on Noah's Arc saying I know the Arc is true.... (good ship Zion). More can be said but that's the gist of my thoughts.
I know what you mean. One of my earliest memories in church is wondering what people actually meant when they used that phrase- as a young child, so it's not like it was malicious or thoughts of an apostate. I didn't understand. It's always stuck with me and I guess because of it I've always separated the Church and the Gospel. I believe that the intent behind "I know the Church is true" is that the individual believes in the Gospel and that the Church was restored by the power and inspiration of God. I also think that the meaning of "the Church is true" even differs from person to person. It's always been interesting to me.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby icarus » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:11 pm

drtanner

Thank you for the references. I have read them and will be giving more thought at home. (at work right now)

Irrelevant

I have thought about it from time to time and during a ward council meeting about 8 years ago a couple people thought we should find a way to keep people from saying "I know the church is true" and at that time I was like,... "but D&C 1 says it is!" lol, that didn't go over well. Bishopric counselor told me to shut up in no uncertain terms.

But recently in HP group a different bishopric member (freshly released with change in Bishops) taught a lesson that we shouldn't say it as well. The over view is that it can offend non-members. Funny though. The instructor is not so warm when members are offended.

Anyway it's been on my mind for a month on and off and wanted some thoughts, which I appreciate.
"wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and the very points of his doctrine, that they may know how to come unto him and be saved." 1 Nephi 15:14

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby JaredBees » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:21 pm

Saw an older sister missionary at the store in Layton Ut today. We engaged in conversation. She and her husband are proselytizing missionaries in their stake. It is a mission basically to reactivate less actives / disaffected types. When I asked the degree of success they're having her response was the same response I received from another friend who he and his wife served a similar mission. "We plant seeds and try to make friends and hope for the best". I very kindly and sincerely expressed to her that people rarely will come back to church for reasons of truth claims or how effective different functions of the church are in a person's life. But they will if they know that Jesus can make all difference in their lives through a personal mighty change of heart / rebirth and if he can be found in those truth claims or in those functions. I told her when a person is changed ( or has had the spirit bear witness to receive the hope of change ) through the strength gift and grace of Jesus ---they want to be where he can be found. She did not smile.

About a week ago the first counselor in the bishopric in our old Ward I stumbled upon and we discussed how in that Ward there has not been a male missionary leave / serve for 11 years. He told me if "these prospective Elders could just learn to sacrifice for this most important right just cause then they would start seeing missionaries going out". I told him that the rubber won't hit the road for these young men or anybody unless they're taught and have personally experienced the value of Jesus in their life. I further stated that if in this day and age with all the "fun" information out there good bad and indifferent about the church if we think that kids will go on missions on the strength of the position that they are members of the true church and that they should sacrifice because they are members of the true church ---such traditions of our fathers are not compeling as they once were. I further stated with all these difficulties in our day and time, having a testimony of different functions of the church is not sufficient for most, either. I went on to say it wasn't sufficient for the Disciples of old and it won't be sufficient for prospective Elders or anybody in these last days either. I asked him how much more of a difference was there for converted / born of God Peter after he received the Holy Ghost after Christ's ascension than the Peter who walked with Jesus for 3 years who only had a testimony...? This brother looked chagrined over my non church orthodox expressions / questions that I continued to build upon.

I fear there's so much emphasis placed on the tradition / narrative of the truthfulness of the earthly institution and all of its functions---- that people miss the mark when it comes to understanding and experiencing where true life and light and power injects / derives from ...
Negative thoughts produce negative words which produces negative actions. Purge the negativity. Dwell in Christ, and reflect his bidding: Moroni 7:45-48.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby JaredBees » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:52 am

We are taught / given clear emphasis from Jesus Christ that the fullness of the Gospel is found within the Book of Mormon. My question is how does one get this fullness into their lives ( as it is laid out in the book of Mormon) to where it has efficacy at work at home at play in CHURCH?

A little over a year ago in fast and testimony meeting a very heart felt and sincere Filipino sister shared her testimony / feelings. She mentioned how confused she was when she came to America 18 years ago and started attending her Mormon church in the states. She asked her husband why people don't say hello or physically embrace one another while they're at church with frequent regularity. She was confused at what she observed was quite the opposite. Her husband said this is how it is. this is how it's been and is stateside.

Now I'm not so quick to say that every Ward is like as the sister described. But, I'm fairly convinced that those who are more self indulged and are more in the hum and pattern of attending church out of cultural and tradition based convictions and have not yet received the true mounting blessings of what beginning to receive or having received the full blessings of the "fullness of the gospel" represents are in a state of being lulled away...Please see 2nephi 31 and mosiah chapters 2-5 in the BofM to understand beginning of what receiving the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ looks like.

On a side note--- me and my fun ways are checking out / taking a break from ldsff for a few months--- see you on flip side.
Negative thoughts produce negative words which produces negative actions. Purge the negativity. Dwell in Christ, and reflect his bidding: Moroni 7:45-48.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby icarus » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:44 am

^^^This
"wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and the very points of his doctrine, that they may know how to come unto him and be saved." 1 Nephi 15:14

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby Thinker » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:46 am

topcat wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:26 am
Main thing though is, Is there a vital importance to gaining a testimony of the current Church?

To help me even understand my question, could you help me define what "current Church" means. Do you mean the Brethren? Or DrTanner, do mean something else?

If you mean the Brethren, then the real point you're making becomes, How to gain a testimony of the current Brethren. Is this correct?

If that is the question, and we are studying it out in our minds (per DC 8 and DC 9), then does that mean we should look at evidence that the Brethren are "true"? And if so, what evidence is there to make the case that they are true?
Simple but good questions that may easily be overlooked. No doubt exploring possible answers to your questions could take us down many different extensive paths.

When people so often say, "I know this church is true" - I think superficially they may be referring to the teachings of the prophets - past and present that has culminated in the organization of a 3-hour block each Sunday etc. It may also be said because it's just the thing everyone says - and especially when nervous in public speaking - they want to be liked and do what everyone else does. But I think when people get emotional about it - they are referring to the church as their experience with other members loving them and their opportunities to love.

I think what is vital is to gain a testimony of God and God's will for us individually - that is above all - including the church and brethren. I have come to see things from different perspectives. Fowler's faith stages explains spiritual developmental stages...most members are at stage 3 - and the church curriculum/doctrine/teachings seem to kind of discourage members from moving past that stage. Others like St. John of the Cross and Teresa suggested a more detailed explanation of about 10 spiritual stages which Jesus showed by example - yet again the higher stages are ignored in church. I love the church for how it helps foster spiritual development to a certain point & I see it as important for that - but I don't consider it to be a "fullness."

Probably the biggest void in spiritual development is the ignoring or even discouraging of psych-ology - the study of the soul. That is really hurting a lot of people and I can't help but wonder if it's at least partially why UT leads the nation in anti-depressants and has high rates of anxiety, suicide and abuse/addiction of pain medications. Lds authors estimated that up to 80% of mental illness is rooted in misunderstandings of doctrine. I believe that many people treat scriptures as if they are gods - they prioritize prophets above God. Some will repeat, "You get closer to God by abiding by the BofM than by any other book" - or other quotes that discourage exploring your thinking and emotions. To me this is like damning people - holding them back from spiritually progressing. The BofM has many great ideas from the authors, but there are many other good sources that can help us get closer to God too.

Cognitive distortion, IMO is the psychological root cause of so many problems - and yet they aren't taught in church. Our bodies are temples - and the US's #1 killer is heart-disease -often because of obesity - but that is not addressed in church. These are issues that have extremely profound consequences physically (even life/death) as well as spiritually. Jesus clearly understood the power of mind-body connection as he healed. Higher spiritual stages learn, teach & practice how to use the amazing power of belief (aka placebo effect). Carl Jung suggested that long ago, people went to religious leaders for help with personal problems - now they put their trust in psychologists and doctors. He suggested that religion would ideally rise to the occasion - to incorporate psych-ology with spirituality since they are inseparably connected.

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Re: How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

Postby LdsMarco » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:50 pm

Easy answer. The only true way to gain a testimony is to diligently learn the doctrine, with good intent, and let the Holy Ghost do the rest


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