How to gain a testimony of the current lds church

[drtanner]

The church = the organization authorized by God to confer his priesthood and with that authority administer ordinances of salvation.

Sooo,... the hierarchy who hold the keys or the priesthood in general?

Still waiting for your definition of the priesthood in general, but in the meantime this is a good scripture in the D&C for some context to your question.

11 ​Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to ​​​preach​ my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ​​​ordained​ by some one who has ​​​authority​, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

[icarus]

Thank you drtanner, I appreciate your response.

Well,... to me the Priesthood "in general" is the whole priesthood body (all quorums top to bottom. As opposed to the key holders or just the 15 depending on one's point of view.

[drtanner]

Thank you drtanner, I appreciate your response.

Well,... to me the Priesthood "in general" is the whole priesthood body (all quorums top to bottom. As opposed to the key holders or just the 15 depending on one's point of view.

Thank you. Without the keys, the church would not have priesthood in general. Here are some scriptures that may help:

D&C 124:123 Verily I say unto you, I now give unto you the officers belonging to my Priesthood, that ye may hold the keys thereof, even the Priesthood which is after the order of Melchizedek, which is after the order of mine Only Begotten Son.

142 And again, I say unto you, Samuel Rolfe and his counselors for priests, and the president of the teachers and his counselors, and also the president of the deacons and his counselors, and also the president of the stake and his counselors.

143 The above offices I have given unto you, and the keys thereof, for helps and for governments, for the work of the ministry and the perfecting of my saints.

D&C 65:2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

D&C 132:7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

[Irrelevant]

I have enjoyed this thread and thank everyone.

I have been contemplating similar thoughts of the OP and have been wondering what everyone means by "church" or even D&C 1.

In my mind what I have thought has considered the legal entity, the organization or leadership and also the members (top to bottom) and I have come to favor the meaning as members.

There are of course nuances such as "I'm going to church" which IS the building imo. If we say, "The church does or does not approve of something", then is that not the hierarchy? And what about referencing the church in a particular town? Is that the building or the congregation?

The concept of "church" in the New Testament, to me, refers to the congregations, or the people.

When we talk about authority though it's the leadership as I'm seeing it.

So lately when I hear, "the church is true" I wonder what is really being said. To me it's kinda like someone on Noah's Arc saying I know the Arc is true.... (good ship Zion). More can be said but that's the gist of my thoughts.

I know what you mean. One of my earliest memories in church is wondering what people actually meant when they used that phrase- as a young child, so it's not like it was malicious or thoughts of an apostate. I didn't understand. It's always stuck with me and I guess because of it I've always separated the Church and the Gospel. I believe that the intent behind "I know the Church is true" is that the individual believes in the Gospel and that the Church was restored by the power and inspiration of God. I also think that the meaning of "the Church is true" even differs from person to person. It's always been interesting to me.

[icarus]

drtanner

Thank you for the references. I have read them and will be giving more thought at home. (at work right now)

Irrelevant

I have thought about it from time to time and during a ward council meeting about 8 years ago a couple people thought we should find a way to keep people from saying "I know the church is true" and at that time I was like,... "but D&C 1 says it is!" lol, that didn't go over well. Bishopric counselor told me to shut up in no uncertain terms.

But recently in HP group a different bishopric member (freshly released with change in Bishops) taught a lesson that we shouldn't say it as well. The over view is that it can offend non-members. Funny though. The instructor is not so warm when members are offended.

Anyway it's been on my mind for a month on and off and wanted some thoughts, which I appreciate.

[diligently seeking]

Saw an older sister missionary at the store in Layton Ut today. We engaged in conversation. She and her husband are proselytizing missionaries in their stake. It is a mission basically to reactivate less actives / disaffected types. When I asked the degree of success they're having her response was the same response I received from another friend who he and his wife served a similar mission. "We plant seeds and try to make friends and hope for the best". I very kindly and sincerely expressed to her that people rarely will come back to church for reasons of truth claims or how effective different functions of the church are in a person's life. But they will if they know that Jesus can make all difference in their lives through a personal mighty change of heart / rebirth and if he can be found in those truth claims or in those functions. I told her when a person is changed ( or has had the spirit bear witness to receive the hope of change ) through the strength gift and grace of Jesus ---they want to be where he can be found. She did not smile.

About a week ago the first counselor in the bishopric in our old Ward I stumbled upon and we discussed how in that Ward there has not been a male missionary leave / serve for 11 years. He told me if "these prospective Elders could just learn to sacrifice for this most important right just cause then they would start seeing missionaries going out". I told him that the rubber won't hit the road for these young men or anybody unless they're taught and have personally experienced the value of Jesus in their life. I further stated that if in this day and age with all the "fun" information out there good bad and indifferent about the church if we think that kids will go on missions on the strength of the position that they are members of the true church and that they should sacrifice because they are members of the true church ---such traditions of our fathers are not compeling as they once were. I further stated with all these difficulties in our day and time, having a testimony of different functions of the church is not sufficient for most, either. I went on to say it wasn't sufficient for the Disciples of old and it won't be sufficient for prospective Elders or anybody in these last days either. I asked him how much more of a difference was there for converted / born of God Peter after he received the Holy Ghost after Christ's ascension than the Peter who walked with Jesus for 3 years who only had a testimony...? This brother looked chagrined over my non church orthodox expressions / questions that I continued to build upon.

I fear there's so much emphasis placed on the tradition / narrative of the truthfulness of the earthly institution and all of its functions---- that people miss the mark when it comes to understanding and experiencing where true life and light and power injects / derives from ...

[diligently seeking]

We are taught / given clear emphasis from Jesus Christ that the fullness of the Gospel is found within the Book of Mormon. My question is how does one get this fullness into their lives ( as it is laid out in the book of Mormon) to where it has efficacy at work at home at play in CHURCH?

A little over a year ago in fast and testimony meeting a very heart felt and sincere Filipino sister shared her testimony / feelings. She mentioned how confused she was when she came to America 18 years ago and started attending her Mormon church in the states. She asked her husband why people don't say hello or physically embrace one another while they're at church with frequent regularity. She was confused at what she observed was quite the opposite. Her husband said this is how it is. this is how it's been and is stateside.

Now I'm not so quick to say that every Ward is like as the sister described. But, I'm fairly convinced that those who are more self indulged and are more in the hum and pattern of attending church out of cultural and tradition based convictions and have not yet received the true mounting blessings of what beginning to receive or having received the full blessings of the "fullness of the gospel" represents are in a state of being lulled away...Please see 2nephi 31 and mosiah chapters 2-5 in the BofM to understand beginning of what receiving the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ looks like.

On a side note--- me and my fun ways are checking out / taking a break from ldsff for a few months--- see you on flip side.

[icarus]

^^^This

[Thinker]

Main thing though is, Is there a vital importance to gaining a testimony of the current Church?

To help me even understand my question, could you help me define what "current Church" means. Do you mean the Brethren? Or DrTanner, do mean something else?

If you mean the Brethren, then the real point you're making becomes, How to gain a testimony of the current Brethren. Is this correct?

If that is the question, and we are studying it out in our minds (per DC 8 and DC 9), then does that mean we should look at evidence that the Brethren are "true"? And if so, what evidence is there to make the case that they are true?

Simple but good questions that may easily be overlooked. No doubt exploring possible answers to your questions could take us down many different extensive paths.

When people so often say, "I know this church is true" - I think superficially they may be referring to the teachings of the prophets - past and present that has culminated in the organization of a 3-hour block each Sunday etc. It may also be said because it's just the thing everyone says - and especially when nervous in public speaking - they want to be liked and do what everyone else does. But I think when people get emotional about it - they are referring to the church as their experience with other members loving them and their opportunities to love.

I think what is vital is to gain a testimony of God and God's will for us individually - that is above all - including the church and brethren. I have come to see things from different perspectives. Fowler's faith stages explains spiritual developmental stages...most members are at stage 3 - and the church curriculum/doctrine/teachings seem to kind of discourage members from moving past that stage. Others like St. John of the Cross and Teresa suggested a more detailed explanation of about 10 spiritual stages which Jesus showed by example - yet again the higher stages are ignored in church. I love the church for how it helps foster spiritual development to a certain point & I see it as important for that - but I don't consider it to be a "fullness."

Probably the biggest void in spiritual development is the ignoring or even discouraging of psych-ology - the study of the soul. That is really hurting a lot of people and I can't help but wonder if it's at least partially why UT leads the nation in anti-depressants and has high rates of anxiety, suicide and abuse/addiction of pain medications. Lds authors estimated that up to 80% of mental illness is rooted in misunderstandings of doctrine. I believe that many people treat scriptures as if they are gods - they prioritize prophets above God. Some will repeat, "You get closer to God by abiding by the BofM than by any other book" - or other quotes that discourage exploring your thinking and emotions. To me this is like damning people - holding them back from spiritually progressing. The BofM has many great ideas from the authors, but there are many other good sources that can help us get closer to God too.

Cognitive distortion, IMO is the psychological root cause of so many problems - and yet they aren't taught in church. Our bodies are temples - and the US's #1 killer is heart-disease -often because of obesity - but that is not addressed in church. These are issues that have extremely profound consequences physically (even life/death) as well as spiritually. Jesus clearly understood the power of mind-body connection as he healed. Higher spiritual stages learn, teach & practice how to use the amazing power of belief (aka placebo effect). Carl Jung suggested that long ago, people went to religious leaders for help with personal problems - now they put their trust in psychologists and doctors. He suggested that religion would ideally rise to the occasion - to incorporate psych-ology with spirituality since they are inseparably connected.

[LdsMarco]

Easy answer. The only true way to gain a testimony is to diligently learn the doctrine, with good intent, and let the Holy Ghost do the rest

[brianj]

A little over a year ago in fast and testimony meeting a very heart felt and sincere Filipino sister shared her testimony / feelings. She mentioned how confused she was when she came to America 18 years ago and started attending her Mormon church in the states. She asked her husband why people don't say hello or physically embrace one another while they're at church with frequent regularity. She was confused at what she observed was quite the opposite. Her husband said this is how it is. this is how it's been and is stateside.

Now I'm not so quick to say that every Ward is like as the sister described.

Three.

Three people.

If I go to a congregation I have never visited before, spend three hours in the building, and only three of the 100+ people present welcome me before they ask if there are any visitors present at the start of priesthood meetings, then it is a friendlier than average ward. Only three people!

Once I visited a ward in Pullman, Washington, and spent three hours in the building. They announced at the end of sacrament meeting that there would be no Melchizedek Priesthood meetings because the men were taking care of primary, so I didn't go to priesthood. In three full hours in that building, not one person spoke to me,

Therefore, I believe almost all wards in North America are like what that sister described. I can't recall anybody ever offering a hand when welcoming me to their ward, and I have NEVER received a hug. But I have been to protestant churches where it feels like I've met every congregant before I leave and I have had more handshakes and hugs than I care to count.

I will say that I had a wonderful experience in the Victoria First Ward in Victoria, British Columbia. I assume that, since Victoria is a popular tourist destination, the ward members there have a lot more practice welcoming visitors and have placed a higher priority on making visitors welcome. This is the only LDS congregation I have ever attended where I felt the phrase on the building "visitors welcome" was totally honest. And that's a really sad statement.

One little thing that I would do if I were called to a Bishopric is to NEVER ask a visitor to introduce himself. I would ask the congregation member sitting next to them to introduce the visitor. I have visited exactly one ward where they did this, and it was one of the only two wards I have attended where I did feel somewhat welcome.

As the most recent posts on this thread show, church members have a long way to go.

[icarus]

This week end I listened to Elder Bednar's talk "Converted Unto the Lord" and he talks about Peter when Jesus asked, "Who say ye that I am?" and of course Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." And it was revealed by the Savior that this was given by the Father and no other. Essentially this was a testimony according to EB. (I'm not using full quotes btw)

Then he highlights when the Savior said to Peter, "...when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." And this would happen after the Lord's ascension and the spirit would be the first comforter.

EB really discusses being converted to the Lord and becoming "Born of God."

But considering the things discussed in the talk, a testimony then, is at the point of entering in at the straight gate, where as becoming converted is after the gift of the Holy Ghost, but beyond that too. I think it's about the path to Christ. The C&E, 2nd C ect. The whole package one step at a time.

I gave some thought to the testimony aspect and what Thinker and others discuss... the new budding testimonies that are voiced as, "I know the church is true." I pause and wonder if the church is a launching pad.

But... I'm still pondering.

[Thinker]

How about a rock solid testimony of God - so strong that you are in tuned with and do God’s will even when against peer pressure?

[heliocentr1c]

There is an group of people out there that my heart goes out to. Those who believe in Jospeh Smith and the Book of Mormon but not in the current LDS church.

But there is a way to gain a testimony of the current church.... Attending The house of the Lord worthily, frequently, and honestly.

Immersing yourself in family history and doing temple work yields sacred personal fruit that are seared into your soul. If done with real intent the blessings of the temple are overwhelming and undeniable. We have been promised if we will attend the temple often these blessings are available to each of us.

Could we have these experiences and blessings without priesthood authority? What does that say of the current status of the church? It is true and lead by prophets and apostles. If you attend but associate or affiliate with groups who oppose the church you will never see the fruits of the temple because you are not being honest to the Lord. Just like anything we are seeking a confirmation of this has to be done with real intent and no deceptive before God.

Experiences, blessings, and answers are available in ways that are undeniable through worshipping in the House of the Lord. I can say that with absolute certainty.

In order to gain this testimony one would have to already be a member. If someone isn’t already a member but thinking about joining the church they have no way of gaining this witness according to your suggestion.

They could attend church and read the BoM but a belief in the BoM doesn’t equate to the truthfulness of the Church necessarily.

They could attend a local ward but feeling the spirit there doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the only place/congregation one could feel God’s spirit.

The issue really comes down to the “keys” imo, (as taught by president’s of the Church themselves) not the temple, though the temple has plenty of truth.

Also, there is no canonical scripture I’m aware of that talks about genealogical work in a temple setting, in the sense of performing vicarious temple ordinances for the dead.

As well, there is no mandate in scripture I know about teaching the frequency of temple attendance. Though, I think it’s good to attend the temple, if it doesn’t interfere with more important responsibilities.

[AlbedoEffect]

Replying to the post topic.
If I attended regularly, my testimony of the church would only wane farther down. I don’t know if it’s a problem with people in general these days or what, but wow... so many people are willfully ignorant and vanilla, so many people have opinions shouted as truth, so many people do not care about anybody that can’t give them something.
My faith in god and my knowledge of the kingdom has shot through the roof in the time I’ve not attended regularly. I would argue that the non lessons and the robotic repeatings a of Sunday church are keeping many from really evolving their testimonies and faith in god.

Some of us do not like the facades and the romantics. The dramatic yet empty words. It’s tiring to the mind and soul. There is no authenticity in the meetinghouses anymore. What’s worse is my bishop moved and was replaced with the dumbest ignorant man I’ve ever seen. I won’t explain why, but he’s an infant in the spirit and spouts all his ideas as being spirit inspired, no matter how outlandish or terrible.

And it’s not just the members. There is a lot of church history that is questionable, specifically surrounding Brigham young, the 1920s, and the 1970s. Not to mention how they have the tithing invested in companies more than happy to align themselves with Bill Gates and the cabal.

To name a few reasons...

And then there is the issue of actually defining apostasy. If we are to accurately hunt the truth and not simply dismiss and label those who don’t share the same line of thinking as you, we need to remember that words have specific meaning, and our interpreted meaning and tropes are not accurate.
Apostate to god? Apostate to the church? Apostate to a specific religious idea?
Definition:
a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle

I may not have trust in the church or it’s people, but I’ve never renounced my faith in god or my testimony of the Book of Mormon. Be careful what you label others.