How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9831

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by JohnnyL »

chase wrote: November 12th, 2017, 6:09 am You don't educate adults and then keep them in the church. They educate themselves and then they are gone. There is no use stopping it. The church is built on a really poor foundation, and it is best for people to leave it when the figure that out. The moment you decide to just start thinking rationally and accept that it is not your job to constantly apologize for the idiocy of practically every leader since Joseph Smith, then the choice becomes very east. I hope all of you are strong enough to escape your delusion and come over to the other side. It isn't so bad as you've always been told...in fact, it is wonderful.
I'd say, they generally "FALSELY educate themselves and then they are gone." Then hopefully wonder, years later, where all the joy went.

The church is built ok, given that JS and HS were murdered and some was left unwritten and unknown.

I'd say much of what happened is built well, especially for situations and times.

The best way to educate is not with the essays written by apologetic (apologizing for, not sustaining, truth and faith) people. I've asked the church before to put up lists of websites with good, or at least decent, answers. At least it would be better than what most everyone is going to find on their own.

gardener4life
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1690

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by gardener4life »

If read the scriptures it will take care of what you want to know. Time and time again answers to things I've wanted to know came from prayer and reading the scriptures, with faith and humility.

User avatar
Rose Garden
Don't ask . . .
Posts: 7031
Contact:

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Rose Garden »

gardener4life wrote: November 7th, 2017, 6:58 pm Why would you think think that leaving the church isn't hurting them? Why would you think that leaving the only way back to Heavenly Father isn't a wound that won't be fixed? (Spiritual wounds don't heal on their own without help.) If you remember this, then of course you think that if they leave we are concerned for their well being, not ours or the churches.
justkeepswimming wrote: November 8th, 2017, 1:26 am I'm talking about very active members who are suddenly confronted with a narrative that strongly contradicts what they were taught their whole lives. The church has every interest in concerning itself with these members. These are sheep who aren't even lost, they are scared and confused but who, in most cases, meet with local leaders who aren't prepared to address their concerns.
Meili wrote: November 7th, 2017, 6:43 pm Why should the church be concerned about people who choose to leave the church?
Worrying about the welfare of others is a sign that you do not know the Lord personally. As an individual comes to know the Lord, that person learns of the Lord's great mercy and love for each person on earth. That person comes to understand the power of God and his ability to work with each person on the level they are at. That person ceases to concern themselves with the welfare of others and begins to focus on their own frailties, understanding that there is enough work to do concerning their own salvation and that others are in good hands because they are first and foremost in the hands of the mightiest being in existence. That is why I ask, why should the church be concerned about those who leave. The Lord never leaves them.

User avatar
brlenox
A sheep in wolf in sheep's clothing
Posts: 2615

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by brlenox »

Meili wrote: November 12th, 2017, 9:16 pm
gardener4life wrote: November 7th, 2017, 6:58 pm Why would you think think that leaving the church isn't hurting them? Why would you think that leaving the only way back to Heavenly Father isn't a wound that won't be fixed? (Spiritual wounds don't heal on their own without help.) If you remember this, then of course you think that if they leave we are concerned for their well being, not ours or the churches.
Meili wrote: November 7th, 2017, 6:43 pm Why should the church be concerned about people who choose to leave the church?
Worrying about the welfare of others is a sign that you do not know the Lord personally. As an individual comes to know the Lord, that person learns of the Lord's great mercy and love for each person on earth. That person comes to understand the power of God and his ability to work with each person on the level they are at. That person ceases to concern themselves with the welfare of others and begins to focus on their own frailties, understanding that there is enough work to do concerning their own salvation and that others are in good hands because they are first and foremost in the hands of the mightiest being in existence. That is why I ask, why should the church be concerned about those who leave. The Lord never leaves them.
I underlined a thought above. I suspect that it is simply the nature of short little observations/comments that are surface treatments of a subject without depth that hopefully may account for the possibility that Meili may have not formulated enough detail in the comment for it to be sensible as what it reads and the nature of those who become truly converted are not the same. True conversion brings with it a great increase in the love and concern for the welfare of others. It is part of the conversion aspect that as we mature brings us to loving others as the Lord loves us and we do become more capable of giving of ourselves in remarkable ways of sacrifice which no thought of a return.

I do grasp the point concerning working out our own salvation with fear and trembling and focusing on our own weaknesses. However, sometimes these persons who are "in the hands of the mightiest being in existence" are placed by him as his servants into our hands to see if we will rise to the occasion and love as he has loved us and thus help us to work out our own salvation.

User avatar
Rose Garden
Don't ask . . .
Posts: 7031
Contact:

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Rose Garden »

brlenox wrote: November 12th, 2017, 9:58 pm
Meili wrote: November 12th, 2017, 9:16 pm
gardener4life wrote: November 7th, 2017, 6:58 pm Why would you think think that leaving the church isn't hurting them? Why would you think that leaving the only way back to Heavenly Father isn't a wound that won't be fixed? (Spiritual wounds don't heal on their own without help.) If you remember this, then of course you think that if they leave we are concerned for their well being, not ours or the churches.
Meili wrote: November 7th, 2017, 6:43 pm Why should the church be concerned about people who choose to leave the church?
Worrying about the welfare of others is a sign that you do not know the Lord personally. As an individual comes to know the Lord, that person learns of the Lord's great mercy and love for each person on earth. That person comes to understand the power of God and his ability to work with each person on the level they are at. That person ceases to concern themselves with the welfare of others and begins to focus on their own frailties, understanding that there is enough work to do concerning their own salvation and that others are in good hands because they are first and foremost in the hands of the mightiest being in existence. That is why I ask, why should the church be concerned about those who leave. The Lord never leaves them.
I underlined a thought above. I suspect that it is simply the nature of short little observations/comments that are surface treatments of a subject without depth that hopefully may account for the possibility that Meili may have not formulated enough detail in the comment for it to be sensible as what it reads and the nature of those who become truly converted are not the same. True conversion brings with it a great increase in the love and concern for the welfare of others. It is part of the conversion aspect that as we mature brings us to loving others as the Lord loves us and we do become more capable of giving of ourselves in remarkable ways of sacrifice which no thought of a return.

I do grasp the point concerning working out our own salvation with fear and trembling and focusing on our own weaknesses. However, sometimes these persons who are "in the hands of the mightiest being in existence" are placed by him as his servants into our hands to see if we will rise to the occasion and love as he has loved us and thus help us to work out our own salvation.
Yes, my wording could have been better. I think it's more accurate to say we cease to fear for the welfare of others. We still are driven by love to serve them and do all we can for them but we don't act in fear. We don't act as though their salvation hangs entirely on our personal actions. We also are guided to set our priorities in proper order so that we are not focusing on people outside our families at the expense of our families and not focusing on our families at the expense of ourselves.

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Finrock »

justkeepswimming wrote: November 8th, 2017, 9:58 pm You haven't helped address the question I posed but rather exposed your ability to project what you think I need, which I am telling you I already have. I'm where you are and then some but, Marc, if you think this is actually Christ's church, not just some vehicle to find Christ, then you continue to miss the point of my post;
One of the things that is important to recognize and to understand is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a temporary institution which is here to help people come unto Jesus Christ. There is a distinction between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Also, it isn't the Church of Jesus Christ, it is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The name of the Church was received by revelation and I believe the name is not superfluous but indicates who's Church it is and what is the nature of this Church. It is lead by Jesus Christ to the extent that leaders and the Latter-day Saints listen and obey the Spirit of Christ. Because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is made up of fallible, mortal men and women, it is not a perfect institution. Neither does the Church at this moment in time represent the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, although it teaches the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The rejection of the Law of Consecration or the rejection of the higher law as a people is one strong example of how the Church does not represent the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Zion is where we need to be, but Zion is not where we are at. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not encompass Zion, but Zion does encompass the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The LDS Church is here to prepare people to become members of the Church of the Firstborn, which Church is greater than the Mormon paradigm and encompasses the whole earth and all things.

So, the Church is a vehicle that is here to bring us to Christ. The programs of the Church, the manuals, the doctrine, and the leaders exist for the single purpose of pointing individuals to Jesus Christ. If a person can see that the LDS Church is an imperfect vehicle but with a divine purpose, it will make it easier to understand and to accept the flaws, errors, and sins that exist.

But, marc is right, the solution to all problems, be they spiritual, emotional, or temporal in nature, is Jesus Christ. Faith in Jesus Christ will help you to handle disappointing conduct and behavior of others. Faith in Jesus Christ will produce a sense of peace and permanency. Faith in Jesus Christ will provide perspective and context to life's troubles, trials, and disappointments. Faith in Jesus Christ will make issues like what you are describing largely irrelevant because they will be viewed and perceived from an eternal perspective.

We shouldn't have faith in our leaders and base our faith and our religion on their conduct. If you or someone else is doing that, then they need to recognize that they ought not to do it. How can they best recognize this? How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them? We can direct them and encourage them to read the Book of Mormon and to study the Holy Scriptures. But, in particular the Book of Mormon because there is no better tool out there (New Testament is a very close second) that will help people to be converted to Jesus Christ and to receive Him and His Spirit. Also, we can and ought to help others feel God's love by being filled with it and allowing that love dictate our actions and our disposition.

It doesn't matter if you have been lied to, stolen from, raped, beat up, kicked, slapped, robbed, etc., Jesus Christ provides the solution. In Him we can endure. In Him we can forgive. In Him we can see things as they are. In Him we can find peace. In Him we can find answers. In Him we can be assured. In Him we can have a sure foundation that does not fall. The Church will do as the Church does because people will do as people do. Meaning, we can't expect people, and then therefore the Church, to never screw things up. And if people or the Church screw things up, it has no bearing on the gospel of Jesus Christ, because the gospel of Jesus Christ exist independent of people and the Church. You, me, and everyone we have our individual journey here in this life. Our journey will take us to different places and different stops along the way, however, in the end we all have a common goal and a common purpose and God has all things in His hands. God knows whats up. Whatever trials we face or situations we are in are not coincidental or accidental. These experiences and circumstances and such all serve their purpose of helping us gain faith in Jesus Christ and to learn to distinguish between the good and the evil.

It sucks being lied to. It sucks being treated poorly. We shouldn't treat others poorly. We shouldn't lie. We should be good, kind, gentle, loving, and empathetic. However, reality is much different from what ought to be. That's why we need Jesus Christ because what ought to happen and then what does happen will be quite different much of the time.

Short answer to your question: We educate them about Jesus Christ, His mercy, His grace, His goodness, and His atonement.

-Finrock

Cookies
captain of 100
Posts: 618

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Cookies »

Yes, the Church withheld information and put forth a narrative that was incorrect,
For starters the church should probably admit this^, apologize in General Conference for all the harm it has caused, have lessons about how bad they messed up, then never do it again without clearly and repeatedly disclosing what kinds of information they are withholding and why. If you don't trust the people "educating" you, you are not going to want to learn from them.

eddie
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2405

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by eddie »

Cookies wrote: November 13th, 2017, 5:40 pm
Yes, the Church withheld information and put forth a narrative that was incorrect,
For starters the church should probably admit this^, apologize in General Conference for all the harm it has caused, have lessons about how bad they messed up, then never do it again without clearly and repeatedly disclosing what kinds of information they are withholding and why. If you don't trust the people "educating" you, you are not going to want to learn from them.
Ha! They have higher direction than this advice!

eddie
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2405

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by eddie »

To be clear on giving our Prophet and General authorities advice;

People who murmur use their own logic while questioning
the leadership of this church, by questioning the living Prophets, they then cause questions in the minds of others. By rationalization and excuses they become disobedient to the order of Jesus Christ's church.

brianj
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4066
Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by brianj »

Meili wrote: November 13th, 2017, 12:43 am Yes, my wording could have been better. I think it's more accurate to say we cease to fear for the welfare of others. We still are driven by love to serve them and do all we can for them but we don't act in fear. We don't act as though their salvation hangs entirely on our personal actions. We also are guided to set our priorities in proper order so that we are not focusing on people outside our families at the expense of our families and not focusing on our families at the expense of ourselves.
This clarification is something I can agree with. I'm glad that I didn't reply to your initial post.

I concern myself deeply with those around me. I fervently pray that some people will become converted and others will remain firm in the faith. When I pray, other than over food, I spend a great deal of time praying for a few relatives and those I consider close friends. When I know a less close friend is struggling I pray for them. I try briefly speaking with my home teaching families ever Sunday and I will do just about anything I can for them, as I would for my close friends, to help them along a path back to Heavenly Father. I have put a great deal of effort into praying for a special friend last weekend.

I don't do what I do for those around me out of fear, but out of love and compassion. I believe that's what should motivate us. I have known people who almost completely ignore anybody who isn't family, and I have seen people neglect family to focus on others, so I also agree that we need balance. Family must come before others, but family isn't the end of our responsibility.

Cookies
captain of 100
Posts: 618

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Cookies »

eddie wrote: November 13th, 2017, 5:45 pm
Cookies wrote: November 13th, 2017, 5:40 pm
Yes, the Church withheld information and put forth a narrative that was incorrect,
For starters the church should probably admit this^, apologize in General Conference for all the harm it has caused, have lessons about how bad they messed up, then never do it again without clearly and repeatedly disclosing what kinds of information they are withholding and why. If you don't trust the people "educating" you, you are not going to want to learn from them.
Ha! They have higher direction than this advice!
I don't know, I think God is a pretty big fan of repentance...Which is what that is, no? Do you think God asked leaders to withhold information and put forth an incorrect narrative? Are leaders guilty of any wrongdoing here, or were they just following that "higher direction" you mentioned?

I learned at church, that when I hurt people, I should apologize and do my best to right my wrongs. It makes no difference to me whether I intended to hurt them or not. When I become aware of the mess I made, I apologize and try to fix it.

User avatar
Joel
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7043

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Joel »

Cookies wrote: November 13th, 2017, 10:40 pm
eddie wrote: November 13th, 2017, 5:45 pm
Cookies wrote: November 13th, 2017, 5:40 pm
Yes, the Church withheld information and put forth a narrative that was incorrect,
For starters the church should probably admit this^, apologize in General Conference for all the harm it has caused, have lessons about how bad they messed up, then never do it again without clearly and repeatedly disclosing what kinds of information they are withholding and why. If you don't trust the people "educating" you, you are not going to want to learn from them.
Ha! They have higher direction than this advice!
I don't know, I think God is a pretty big fan of repentance...Which is what that is, no? Do you think God asked leaders to withhold information and put forth an incorrect narrative? Are leaders guilty of any wrongdoing here, or were they just following that "higher direction" you mentioned?

I learned at church, that when I hurt people, I should apologize and do my best to right my wrongs. It makes no difference to me whether I intended to hurt them or not. When I become aware of the mess I made, I apologize and try to fix it.
This reminds me of this exchange:
Joel wrote: June 21st, 2015, 8:23 am
Amonhi wrote:
Simon wrote:I cant speak for others, but this is one of my major concerns with the church.

Repentance usually involves acknowledging what has been done wrong. To me, the church as an institution, either needet to acknowledge that things like the priesthood ban, polygamy, shadow mountain massaker, have been wrong, and the work of men, and that the church as an institution needs to repent of that, or, it clearly and boldly needs to get declared that all of this has perfectly been the will and intent of the Lord. This is not about defending, this is about honesty and integrity, about trust and simply the way things needet to be. Christ made clear that his kingdom is a kingdom without secrets, but that all shall be made known. To pretent that all is well, when there still are some skeletons in the closet, is not a foundation upon which a healthy relationship can be built. People usually dont doubt the gospel, but the church. These are some of the major reasons why. All it needs to solve the matter, is honesty about it. Revelations from God about it surely wouldnt be a bad thing either. And though we can receive personal revelation about it, it doesnt set the hurch free from its own responsibility.
Don't hold your breath, Oaks said, ""I know that the history of the church is not to seek apologies or to give them,"

Love and Peace,
Amonhi
For reference purposes:

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3286
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by inho »

Joel wrote: November 14th, 2017, 8:13 am
I would like to know what Elder Christofferson was thinking. He had that smile in his face. Was he smiling in agreement, or was he thinking that things could have been worded differently?

User avatar
Joel
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7043

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Joel »

inho wrote: November 14th, 2017, 8:30 am I would like to know what Elder Christofferson was thinking. He had that smile in his face. Was he smiling in agreement, or was he thinking that things could have been worded differently?

User avatar
TrueIntent
captain of 100
Posts: 974

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by TrueIntent »

Arenera wrote: November 8th, 2017, 12:41 pm
mes5464 wrote: November 8th, 2017, 11:44 am I don't understand this thread. I just read the church's post on the origin of the Book of Abraham and I am at a loss as to what is the controversy?
Enthusiastic enmity...
I haven't read it recently but my understanding is that we have the pieces of the original papyrus Joseph translated, and now we can translate Egyptian, and the papyrus doesn't say anything that Jospeh claimed it said...or something like that.....can someone verify this? I believe in translation different anyway.....but for literalist, this is the issue. Anyway, that was one of the issues, but apparently there were others.

User avatar
TrueIntent
captain of 100
Posts: 974

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by TrueIntent »

inho wrote: November 14th, 2017, 8:30 am
Joel wrote: November 14th, 2017, 8:13 am
I would like to know what Elder Christofferson was thinking. He had that smile in his face. Was he smiling in agreement, or was he thinking that things could have been worded differently?
Wow! I have never heard this video before....I am shocked. And this is why I go to God....he tramples on the scriptures in his very response. He is a lawyer and he answers like a lawyer....wow. Go to god people, read your scriptures....the church is a great institution, but the people who lead it, as you can tell from the video are subject to pride and errror just like the rest of us. Wow I can not believe that

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9831

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by JohnnyL »

TrueIntent wrote: November 14th, 2017, 7:40 pm
Arenera wrote: November 8th, 2017, 12:41 pm
mes5464 wrote: November 8th, 2017, 11:44 am I don't understand this thread. I just read the church's post on the origin of the Book of Abraham and I am at a loss as to what is the controversy?
Enthusiastic enmity...
I haven't read it recently but my understanding is that we have the pieces of the original papyrus Joseph translated, and now we can translate Egyptian, and the papyrus doesn't say anything that Jospeh claimed it said...or something like that.....can someone verify this? I believe in translation different anyway.....but for literalist, this is the issue. Anyway, that was one of the issues, but apparently there were others.
This is why I dislike the essays. It seems the best information and thinking has been missed, or dissed.

That roll is not the same roll. (I'd have to look it up, and I hate doing that, but I'll see if I saved it.)

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3286
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by inho »

JohnnyL wrote: November 15th, 2017, 7:35 am This is why I dislike the essays. It seems the best information and thinking has been missed, or dissed.

That roll is not the same roll. (I'd have to look it up, and I hate doing that, but I'll see if I saved it.)
The essay does actually mention the missing scroll theory:
It is likely futile to assess Joseph’s ability to translate papyri when we now have only a fraction of the papyri he had in his possession. Eyewitnesses spoke of “a long roll” or multiple “rolls” of papyrus. Since only fragments survive, it is likely that much of the papyri accessible to Joseph when he translated the book of Abraham is not among these fragments. The loss of a significant portion of the papyri means the relationship of the papyri to the published text cannot be settled conclusively by reference to the papyri.

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9831

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by JohnnyL »

inho wrote: November 15th, 2017, 8:03 am
JohnnyL wrote: November 15th, 2017, 7:35 am This is why I dislike the essays. It seems the best information and thinking has been missed, or dissed.

That roll is not the same roll. (I'd have to look it up, and I hate doing that, but I'll see if I saved it.)
The essay does actually mention the missing scroll theory:
It is likely futile to assess Joseph’s ability to translate papyri when we now have only a fraction of the papyri he had in his possession. Eyewitnesses spoke of “a long roll” or multiple “rolls” of papyrus. Since only fragments survive, it is likely that much of the papyri accessible to Joseph when he translated the book of Abraham is not among these fragments. The loss of a significant portion of the papyri means the relationship of the papyri to the published text cannot be settled conclusively by reference to the papyri.

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham
Yes, true. But I think this should be front and center, and it's the missing "rest of the story" that strongly supports this theory. It really would be helpful, I think, to at least link to things that show it, so people would be more inclined to understand and believe.

Life for polygamy, for example, I think one paragraph written by a board member (have to find the thread) was much better than the essay. (JS not having children by them, as DNA shows; spiritual sealings, and sealings as a big happy family, not just not sexual but not even temporal; etc.)

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9831

Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by JohnnyL »

Joel wrote: November 14th, 2017, 8:13 am
Cookies wrote: November 13th, 2017, 10:40 pm
eddie wrote: November 13th, 2017, 5:45 pm
Cookies wrote: November 13th, 2017, 5:40 pm For starters the church should probably admit this^, apologize in General Conference for all the harm it has caused, have lessons about how bad they messed up, then never do it again without clearly and repeatedly disclosing what kinds of information they are withholding and why. If you don't trust the people "educating" you, you are not going to want to learn from them.
Ha! They have higher direction than this advice!
I don't know, I think God is a pretty big fan of repentance...Which is what that is, no? Do you think God asked leaders to withhold information and put forth an incorrect narrative? Are leaders guilty of any wrongdoing here, or were they just following that "higher direction" you mentioned?

I learned at church, that when I hurt people, I should apologize and do my best to right my wrongs. It makes no difference to me whether I intended to hurt them or not. When I become aware of the mess I made, I apologize and try to fix it.
This reminds me of this exchange:
Joel wrote: June 21st, 2015, 8:23 am
Amonhi wrote:
Simon wrote:I cant speak for others, but this is one of my major concerns with the church.

Repentance usually involves acknowledging what has been done wrong. To me, the church as an institution, either needet to acknowledge that things like the priesthood ban, polygamy, shadow mountain massaker, have been wrong, and the work of men, and that the church as an institution needs to repent of that, or, it clearly and boldly needs to get declared that all of this has perfectly been the will and intent of the Lord. This is not about defending, this is about honesty and integrity, about trust and simply the way things needet to be. Christ made clear that his kingdom is a kingdom without secrets, but that all shall be made known. To pretent that all is well, when there still are some skeletons in the closet, is not a foundation upon which a healthy relationship can be built. People usually dont doubt the gospel, but the church. These are some of the major reasons why. All it needs to solve the matter, is honesty about it. Revelations from God about it surely wouldnt be a bad thing either. And though we can receive personal revelation about it, it doesnt set the hurch free from its own responsibility.
Don't hold your breath, Oaks said, ""I know that the history of the church is not to seek apologies or to give them,"

Love and Peace,
Amonhi
For reference purposes:
I got something different from this clip: it's not the words (often empty), it's the change in attitude and actions afterwards.

Did he also expand on giving apologies?

Post Reply