How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

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marc
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by marc »

I do not identify with nor do I affiliate with any movement. I do, however, associate with people from all walks of life: Remnant, Republicans, Democrats, Pharisees, gays, homeless, millionaires, janitors, etc.

justkeepswimming
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by justkeepswimming »

Until it's not:)
inho wrote: November 9th, 2017, 5:54 am Thus I am willing to think that what Elder Cook said is true.

drtanner
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by drtanner »

What I am suggesting is this: GAs are in a tricky spot where on one hand they have trained us to look at growth as very strong evidence that the church is true
Just keep swimming, Where do you make the correlation that the GA's have attempted to "train" us in thinking that the church is true because of growth? This seems like a pretty outlandish claim to me. I've never once heard anyone base a testimony on this.
Last edited by drtanner on November 9th, 2017, 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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oneClimbs
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by oneClimbs »

This may sound apathetic but I really don't care very much about what people do on the whole. Doesn't matter who they are, I've found that most people tend to let you down because they are mortal and all that. That's just the reality. Anytime someone is lifted up as a great example, you know they have a past and many of them...a present. That said, I don't devalue people or their contributions. I just tend to only really care about their contributions, the good they do, and the truth they teach.

Everyone is a fallen sinner, let's understand that fact. Every mortal save Christ is a sinner and has fallen short of the glory of God. That doesn't mean everyone is a pedophile or a rapist, but we all break God's commandments in one way or another, and on top of that, we all make errors. Errors are not necessarily sins, but we can sometimes say something the wrong way or make a judgment that is wrong. There are many factors and we are all mortal.

But it is through mortals that God does his work. He turns water to wine, and mud into eyeballs. He can and does do great things with weak men, it's how he prefers it. Think about that, he intentionally seeks to work through the weak things, not the strong ones. I'll share with you my favorite verse to prove my point. This is the Lord speaking to Joseph Smith:

"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Joseph Smith, I am well pleased with your offering and acknowledgments, which you have made; for unto this end have I raised you up, that I might show forth my wisdom through the weak things of the earth. (Doctrine and Covenants 124:1)

Yeah, so think about that. So when you look back and history and say, "Hey, these people made big mistakes and did awful stuff!" Yeah, ok, remember how God works, remember who he picks to do his work through. Why does he do that? Well, he has to respect agency so with anything he does he needs to give you enough to be believable, but not so much that there is no room for doubt. You'll always find this balance where at the end, it's up to you to decide between doubt and belief. Will you choose doubt and walk away, or will you believe and plant the seed to see what it grows into?

He's always worked this way. Jesus taught that he was the son of God and people mocked him on the cross telling him to free himself if he was God's son. Their premise was wrong, their expectations were flawed. Jesus died a mortal death right in front of everyone and God let them see it. Not even the apostles really thought he'd come back to life until the women's witnesses convinced them and they saw Jesus themselves. Everyone else thought the whole thing was an epic conspiracy. Room for doubt, room for belief, that's how God deals it out.

gardener4life
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by gardener4life »

Look, if you have a personal connection to Jesus and a testimony of the restored Gospel and the Book of Mormon there is no controversy. These people saying there is a controversy are stirring the pot for their own egos. They need to repent. Their leaders will find out they are destroying others faith and they will be faced with dealing with what they did. This is a very recognizable pattern.

Satan tries to teach people to judge leaders his way instead of the Lord's way. He mimics truth early with clever illusions, then tries to get the train to derail on its own with slight deviations over time that add up to a completely different course. (see Uchtdorf's talks for more on this but he uses a plane for reference.) These people are pointing out faults instead of truths. Now break it down into parts. Do you see the buildup of certain peoples' energy talking about positive or negative? Are they only pointing out flaws or are they bringing in the spirit? If you are bringing up flaws and trying to get people to doubt the apostles and prophets then who are you really serving? I've noticed certain people on this forum continually only follow destructive behavior, instead of buildups.

There isn't any controversies in church history, these are people trying to pretend to be on one side of the fence but really on the other. Why would you trust someone that's always stirring up trouble?

Now think about it in Jesus terms; why does he always encourage us to be like children and have faith like a child? (Children trust their parents, they are happy, they try to be innocent, and they are full of love. Children also don't attack others.)

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Alaris
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Alaris »

The OP is exactly what my dear mother has struggled with. Underneath her disgust at Joseph Smith still lies her testimony. We live close, so I invite her to FHE often where she shares sacred missionary experiences. She knows the church is true deep down under an outward hostility towards Joseph Smiths many wives and the churches riches. Sound familiar? She's not alone.

However my dear mother can't understand why God would allow her or any child to suffer the things she did as a child. One LDS idea she often cites is, "Who would choose these trials in the premortal life?" I know why God allowed her to suffer and why she may have even chose it, and I finally found both the moment and the words to ask her one day by the Spirit of truth.

"Would you suffer those things so your children and your children's children wouldnt have to?"

She paused and just stared at me. Of course she would. She was born into a family in a cycle of abuse and from time to time God sends special, noble spirits to these families to break the cycle. Isn't that an example of a Saviors love - - someone who intercedes and suffers to save others?

She will come around eventually but I hope and pray that it will be in this life. I would appreciate anyone reading this to pause an offer a prayer for her please.

The bitterness that she can't let go of has infected her and the idiotic claims of Joseph Smith womanizing children. No way no how a sexual deviant could bring forth the fountain of sweet truth that is from a prophet of God whose spirit readily and regularly confirms those truths! Here is one such sacred scripture from God through an uneducated 21 year old farm boy :
Moroni 7:11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

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h_p
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by h_p »

marc wrote: November 8th, 2017, 9:15 pm When I was so sick and tired of my old ways, sinful, fallen, carnal, wicked, wretched and self loathing, I cried and cried and cried unto the Lord. He didn't answer me as quickly as Alma or King Lamoni or King Lamoni's father. But the relief came and I felt that exquisite release. That healing. That peace. The life line arrived just as I was about to drink my last swallow of water and drown.

Start believing Jesus. Start praying like your life depends on it. Start praying hours on end until He answers. Start acquainting yourself with sore knees. This is the kind of education members don't want. It's the kind of education the ancient Israelites rejected when the Lord offered it to them through Moses and the same for the saints with Joseph Smith. People prefer their golden calfs. Stop panicking. Stop fearing. Start praying. Start crying out to Him. Start believing. Give away all your sins and your old ways to know Him. I would tell you all this if I were your bishop. I would ask if you would be willing to pray right now and I'd get down on my knees with you and stay right there with you all night in prayer if necessary. Would you be willing to pray all night and cry for relief? For peace? For answers? For knowledge? Tonight is a good night to start.

You gotta wanna change though, because God already knows whether or not you really do. And he will answer you accordingly.
Powerful, marc. Thank you for this.

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ParticleMan
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by ParticleMan »

justkeepswimming wrote: November 7th, 2017, 5:11 pm In a different thread, Ed Goble made this informative point....

"[F]or people who are set in their ways about what they think reality is, if you teach them, they feel betrayed and think the Church lied to them.... Anyone that thinks about this carefully can understand the tightrope the Church is walking on, trying to somehow let people know facts, but in a way that we wont have hemmoraging in the membership of loss of faith...."
What does it take to gain a spiritual maturity that allows for learning new things that may challenge your current understanding but not shake your testimony? The process may be similar for all while being highly individual. It may boil down to testimony and desire.

For those who desire no more than orthodox teachings, milk is likely best. Official resources address only current teachings, focusing on helping as many as possible, the majority, the common denominator, and this is arguably as it should be.

Joseph Smith taught:
"I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen."

and:
"There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge and a pumpkin for a beetle."

But for those whose continued diet of milk has grown them teeth and a hunger for meat, they will seek to feed that hunger. Hence the need not only for faithful scholarship but also for testimonies packed, if you will, with an abundance of good gut flora to prevent their faith from contracting food poisoning from challenges to sanitized orthodoxy.

At the same time, the Church is an organization that must operate in the world, although its mission transcends the world. There are relationships between the gospel, the Church, Church leaders, and the general membership. The gospel is always true, regardless of the Church's organizational structure, leaders, and members. The Church is true because the Lord is its head. Church leaders are to speak and act in the name of the Lord. Members are to sustain their leaders and discern what is of God for them from what isn't and hearken accordingly.

Times change, people chance, and practices and policies change in response or in prophetic preparation. Change may be of God or of man, but if unanimous by those with the keys, it's as if the change is of God. Although a change may not always appear ideal or even correct by members or the world, the purposes of God will be effected either because of or in spite of the change. God works with and through mortal foibles to accomplish His purposes.

But an unfortunate reality is that some have skewed views, false traditions, brows of brass. Some set up stakes from which they will progress no further. Some are quick to find fault, be offended, or worse. The soil of such hearts is not prepared to be educated. As a parable, regular vehicle maintenance is essential but insufficient for missing parts or malfunction.

chase
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by chase »

You don't educate adults and then keep them in the church. They educate themselves and then they are gone. There is no use stopping it. The church is built on a really poor foundation, and it is best for people to leave it when the figure that out. The moment you decide to just start thinking rationally and accept that it is not your job to constantly apologize for the idiocy of practically every leader since Joseph Smith, then the choice becomes very east. I hope all of you are strong enough to escape your delusion and come over to the other side. It isn't so bad as you've always been told...in fact, it is wonderful.

NinjaForJesus
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by NinjaForJesus »

What to do then, when the church policies are no longer based upon the rock, but policies of men - Does not "Faith, repentance, baptism of water and fire. The Spirit will teach you all things what ye should do (2 Nephi 32)" include being lead to the waters of Mormon outside the established church - but to the Tree of Life, the love of God?

This narrative is what I am seeing with family and friends. The church getting in the way of one's coming to the rock, with policies and practices that are not Zion after all.

"Receive the Comforter. Be guided by the Comforter. Plain and simple and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you."
marc wrote: November 7th, 2017, 5:30 pm Stop complicating salvation.

The rock is Jesus Christ. The wise man built his house upon the rock. Faith in Jesus Christ alone is what should be taught.
D&C 11:1 A great and marvelous work is about to come forth among the children of men.

2 Behold, I am God; give heed to my word, which is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow; therefore give heed unto my word.

3 Behold, the field is white already to harvest; therefore, whoso desireth to reap let him thrust in his sickle with his might, and reap while the day lasts, that he may treasure up for his soul everlasting salvation in the kingdom of God.

4 Yea, whosoever will thrust in his sickle and reap, the same is called of God.

5 Therefore, if you will ask of me you shall receive; if you will knock it shall be opened unto you.

6 Now, as you have asked, behold, I say unto you, keep my commandments, and seek to bring forth and establish the cause of Zion.

7 Seek not for riches but for wisdom; and, behold, the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you, and then shall you be made rich. Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich.

8 Verily, verily, I say unto you, even as you desire of me so it shall be done unto you; and, if you desire, you shall be the means of doing much good in this generation.

9 Say nothing but repentance unto this generation. Keep my commandments, and assist to bring forth my work, according to my commandments, and you shall be blessed.

10 Behold, thou hast a gift, or thou shalt have a gift if thou wilt desire of me in faith, with an honest heart, believing in the power of Jesus Christ, or in my power which speaketh unto thee;

11 For, behold, it is I that speak; behold, I am the light which shineth in darkness, and by my power I give these words unto thee.

12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.
Faith, repentance, baptism of water and fire. The Spirit will teach you all things what ye should do (2 Nephi 32).

Receive the Comforter. Be guided by the Comforter. Plain and simple.

JohnnyL
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by JohnnyL »

chase wrote: November 12th, 2017, 6:09 am You don't educate adults and then keep them in the church. They educate themselves and then they are gone. There is no use stopping it. The church is built on a really poor foundation, and it is best for people to leave it when the figure that out. The moment you decide to just start thinking rationally and accept that it is not your job to constantly apologize for the idiocy of practically every leader since Joseph Smith, then the choice becomes very east. I hope all of you are strong enough to escape your delusion and come over to the other side. It isn't so bad as you've always been told...in fact, it is wonderful.
I'd say, they generally "FALSELY educate themselves and then they are gone." Then hopefully wonder, years later, where all the joy went.

The church is built ok, given that JS and HS were murdered and some was left unwritten and unknown.

I'd say much of what happened is built well, especially for situations and times.

The best way to educate is not with the essays written by apologetic (apologizing for, not sustaining, truth and faith) people. I've asked the church before to put up lists of websites with good, or at least decent, answers. At least it would be better than what most everyone is going to find on their own.

gardener4life
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by gardener4life »

If read the scriptures it will take care of what you want to know. Time and time again answers to things I've wanted to know came from prayer and reading the scriptures, with faith and humility.

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Rose Garden
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Rose Garden »

gardener4life wrote: November 7th, 2017, 6:58 pm Why would you think think that leaving the church isn't hurting them? Why would you think that leaving the only way back to Heavenly Father isn't a wound that won't be fixed? (Spiritual wounds don't heal on their own without help.) If you remember this, then of course you think that if they leave we are concerned for their well being, not ours or the churches.
justkeepswimming wrote: November 8th, 2017, 1:26 am I'm talking about very active members who are suddenly confronted with a narrative that strongly contradicts what they were taught their whole lives. The church has every interest in concerning itself with these members. These are sheep who aren't even lost, they are scared and confused but who, in most cases, meet with local leaders who aren't prepared to address their concerns.
Meili wrote: November 7th, 2017, 6:43 pm Why should the church be concerned about people who choose to leave the church?
Worrying about the welfare of others is a sign that you do not know the Lord personally. As an individual comes to know the Lord, that person learns of the Lord's great mercy and love for each person on earth. That person comes to understand the power of God and his ability to work with each person on the level they are at. That person ceases to concern themselves with the welfare of others and begins to focus on their own frailties, understanding that there is enough work to do concerning their own salvation and that others are in good hands because they are first and foremost in the hands of the mightiest being in existence. That is why I ask, why should the church be concerned about those who leave. The Lord never leaves them.

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brlenox
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by brlenox »

Meili wrote: November 12th, 2017, 9:16 pm
gardener4life wrote: November 7th, 2017, 6:58 pm Why would you think think that leaving the church isn't hurting them? Why would you think that leaving the only way back to Heavenly Father isn't a wound that won't be fixed? (Spiritual wounds don't heal on their own without help.) If you remember this, then of course you think that if they leave we are concerned for their well being, not ours or the churches.
Meili wrote: November 7th, 2017, 6:43 pm Why should the church be concerned about people who choose to leave the church?
Worrying about the welfare of others is a sign that you do not know the Lord personally. As an individual comes to know the Lord, that person learns of the Lord's great mercy and love for each person on earth. That person comes to understand the power of God and his ability to work with each person on the level they are at. That person ceases to concern themselves with the welfare of others and begins to focus on their own frailties, understanding that there is enough work to do concerning their own salvation and that others are in good hands because they are first and foremost in the hands of the mightiest being in existence. That is why I ask, why should the church be concerned about those who leave. The Lord never leaves them.
I underlined a thought above. I suspect that it is simply the nature of short little observations/comments that are surface treatments of a subject without depth that hopefully may account for the possibility that Meili may have not formulated enough detail in the comment for it to be sensible as what it reads and the nature of those who become truly converted are not the same. True conversion brings with it a great increase in the love and concern for the welfare of others. It is part of the conversion aspect that as we mature brings us to loving others as the Lord loves us and we do become more capable of giving of ourselves in remarkable ways of sacrifice which no thought of a return.

I do grasp the point concerning working out our own salvation with fear and trembling and focusing on our own weaknesses. However, sometimes these persons who are "in the hands of the mightiest being in existence" are placed by him as his servants into our hands to see if we will rise to the occasion and love as he has loved us and thus help us to work out our own salvation.

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Rose Garden
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Rose Garden »

brlenox wrote: November 12th, 2017, 9:58 pm
Meili wrote: November 12th, 2017, 9:16 pm
gardener4life wrote: November 7th, 2017, 6:58 pm Why would you think think that leaving the church isn't hurting them? Why would you think that leaving the only way back to Heavenly Father isn't a wound that won't be fixed? (Spiritual wounds don't heal on their own without help.) If you remember this, then of course you think that if they leave we are concerned for their well being, not ours or the churches.
Meili wrote: November 7th, 2017, 6:43 pm Why should the church be concerned about people who choose to leave the church?
Worrying about the welfare of others is a sign that you do not know the Lord personally. As an individual comes to know the Lord, that person learns of the Lord's great mercy and love for each person on earth. That person comes to understand the power of God and his ability to work with each person on the level they are at. That person ceases to concern themselves with the welfare of others and begins to focus on their own frailties, understanding that there is enough work to do concerning their own salvation and that others are in good hands because they are first and foremost in the hands of the mightiest being in existence. That is why I ask, why should the church be concerned about those who leave. The Lord never leaves them.
I underlined a thought above. I suspect that it is simply the nature of short little observations/comments that are surface treatments of a subject without depth that hopefully may account for the possibility that Meili may have not formulated enough detail in the comment for it to be sensible as what it reads and the nature of those who become truly converted are not the same. True conversion brings with it a great increase in the love and concern for the welfare of others. It is part of the conversion aspect that as we mature brings us to loving others as the Lord loves us and we do become more capable of giving of ourselves in remarkable ways of sacrifice which no thought of a return.

I do grasp the point concerning working out our own salvation with fear and trembling and focusing on our own weaknesses. However, sometimes these persons who are "in the hands of the mightiest being in existence" are placed by him as his servants into our hands to see if we will rise to the occasion and love as he has loved us and thus help us to work out our own salvation.
Yes, my wording could have been better. I think it's more accurate to say we cease to fear for the welfare of others. We still are driven by love to serve them and do all we can for them but we don't act in fear. We don't act as though their salvation hangs entirely on our personal actions. We also are guided to set our priorities in proper order so that we are not focusing on people outside our families at the expense of our families and not focusing on our families at the expense of ourselves.

Finrock
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Finrock »

justkeepswimming wrote: November 8th, 2017, 9:58 pm You haven't helped address the question I posed but rather exposed your ability to project what you think I need, which I am telling you I already have. I'm where you are and then some but, Marc, if you think this is actually Christ's church, not just some vehicle to find Christ, then you continue to miss the point of my post;
One of the things that is important to recognize and to understand is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a temporary institution which is here to help people come unto Jesus Christ. There is a distinction between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Also, it isn't the Church of Jesus Christ, it is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The name of the Church was received by revelation and I believe the name is not superfluous but indicates who's Church it is and what is the nature of this Church. It is lead by Jesus Christ to the extent that leaders and the Latter-day Saints listen and obey the Spirit of Christ. Because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is made up of fallible, mortal men and women, it is not a perfect institution. Neither does the Church at this moment in time represent the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, although it teaches the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The rejection of the Law of Consecration or the rejection of the higher law as a people is one strong example of how the Church does not represent the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Zion is where we need to be, but Zion is not where we are at. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not encompass Zion, but Zion does encompass the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The LDS Church is here to prepare people to become members of the Church of the Firstborn, which Church is greater than the Mormon paradigm and encompasses the whole earth and all things.

So, the Church is a vehicle that is here to bring us to Christ. The programs of the Church, the manuals, the doctrine, and the leaders exist for the single purpose of pointing individuals to Jesus Christ. If a person can see that the LDS Church is an imperfect vehicle but with a divine purpose, it will make it easier to understand and to accept the flaws, errors, and sins that exist.

But, marc is right, the solution to all problems, be they spiritual, emotional, or temporal in nature, is Jesus Christ. Faith in Jesus Christ will help you to handle disappointing conduct and behavior of others. Faith in Jesus Christ will produce a sense of peace and permanency. Faith in Jesus Christ will provide perspective and context to life's troubles, trials, and disappointments. Faith in Jesus Christ will make issues like what you are describing largely irrelevant because they will be viewed and perceived from an eternal perspective.

We shouldn't have faith in our leaders and base our faith and our religion on their conduct. If you or someone else is doing that, then they need to recognize that they ought not to do it. How can they best recognize this? How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them? We can direct them and encourage them to read the Book of Mormon and to study the Holy Scriptures. But, in particular the Book of Mormon because there is no better tool out there (New Testament is a very close second) that will help people to be converted to Jesus Christ and to receive Him and His Spirit. Also, we can and ought to help others feel God's love by being filled with it and allowing that love dictate our actions and our disposition.

It doesn't matter if you have been lied to, stolen from, raped, beat up, kicked, slapped, robbed, etc., Jesus Christ provides the solution. In Him we can endure. In Him we can forgive. In Him we can see things as they are. In Him we can find peace. In Him we can find answers. In Him we can be assured. In Him we can have a sure foundation that does not fall. The Church will do as the Church does because people will do as people do. Meaning, we can't expect people, and then therefore the Church, to never screw things up. And if people or the Church screw things up, it has no bearing on the gospel of Jesus Christ, because the gospel of Jesus Christ exist independent of people and the Church. You, me, and everyone we have our individual journey here in this life. Our journey will take us to different places and different stops along the way, however, in the end we all have a common goal and a common purpose and God has all things in His hands. God knows whats up. Whatever trials we face or situations we are in are not coincidental or accidental. These experiences and circumstances and such all serve their purpose of helping us gain faith in Jesus Christ and to learn to distinguish between the good and the evil.

It sucks being lied to. It sucks being treated poorly. We shouldn't treat others poorly. We shouldn't lie. We should be good, kind, gentle, loving, and empathetic. However, reality is much different from what ought to be. That's why we need Jesus Christ because what ought to happen and then what does happen will be quite different much of the time.

Short answer to your question: We educate them about Jesus Christ, His mercy, His grace, His goodness, and His atonement.

-Finrock

Cookies
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Cookies »

Yes, the Church withheld information and put forth a narrative that was incorrect,
For starters the church should probably admit this^, apologize in General Conference for all the harm it has caused, have lessons about how bad they messed up, then never do it again without clearly and repeatedly disclosing what kinds of information they are withholding and why. If you don't trust the people "educating" you, you are not going to want to learn from them.

eddie
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by eddie »

Cookies wrote: November 13th, 2017, 5:40 pm
Yes, the Church withheld information and put forth a narrative that was incorrect,
For starters the church should probably admit this^, apologize in General Conference for all the harm it has caused, have lessons about how bad they messed up, then never do it again without clearly and repeatedly disclosing what kinds of information they are withholding and why. If you don't trust the people "educating" you, you are not going to want to learn from them.
Ha! They have higher direction than this advice!

eddie
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by eddie »

To be clear on giving our Prophet and General authorities advice;

People who murmur use their own logic while questioning
the leadership of this church, by questioning the living Prophets, they then cause questions in the minds of others. By rationalization and excuses they become disobedient to the order of Jesus Christ's church.

brianj
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by brianj »

Meili wrote: November 13th, 2017, 12:43 am Yes, my wording could have been better. I think it's more accurate to say we cease to fear for the welfare of others. We still are driven by love to serve them and do all we can for them but we don't act in fear. We don't act as though their salvation hangs entirely on our personal actions. We also are guided to set our priorities in proper order so that we are not focusing on people outside our families at the expense of our families and not focusing on our families at the expense of ourselves.
This clarification is something I can agree with. I'm glad that I didn't reply to your initial post.

I concern myself deeply with those around me. I fervently pray that some people will become converted and others will remain firm in the faith. When I pray, other than over food, I spend a great deal of time praying for a few relatives and those I consider close friends. When I know a less close friend is struggling I pray for them. I try briefly speaking with my home teaching families ever Sunday and I will do just about anything I can for them, as I would for my close friends, to help them along a path back to Heavenly Father. I have put a great deal of effort into praying for a special friend last weekend.

I don't do what I do for those around me out of fear, but out of love and compassion. I believe that's what should motivate us. I have known people who almost completely ignore anybody who isn't family, and I have seen people neglect family to focus on others, so I also agree that we need balance. Family must come before others, but family isn't the end of our responsibility.

Cookies
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Cookies »

eddie wrote: November 13th, 2017, 5:45 pm
Cookies wrote: November 13th, 2017, 5:40 pm
Yes, the Church withheld information and put forth a narrative that was incorrect,
For starters the church should probably admit this^, apologize in General Conference for all the harm it has caused, have lessons about how bad they messed up, then never do it again without clearly and repeatedly disclosing what kinds of information they are withholding and why. If you don't trust the people "educating" you, you are not going to want to learn from them.
Ha! They have higher direction than this advice!
I don't know, I think God is a pretty big fan of repentance...Which is what that is, no? Do you think God asked leaders to withhold information and put forth an incorrect narrative? Are leaders guilty of any wrongdoing here, or were they just following that "higher direction" you mentioned?

I learned at church, that when I hurt people, I should apologize and do my best to right my wrongs. It makes no difference to me whether I intended to hurt them or not. When I become aware of the mess I made, I apologize and try to fix it.

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Joel
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Joel »

Cookies wrote: November 13th, 2017, 10:40 pm
eddie wrote: November 13th, 2017, 5:45 pm
Cookies wrote: November 13th, 2017, 5:40 pm
Yes, the Church withheld information and put forth a narrative that was incorrect,
For starters the church should probably admit this^, apologize in General Conference for all the harm it has caused, have lessons about how bad they messed up, then never do it again without clearly and repeatedly disclosing what kinds of information they are withholding and why. If you don't trust the people "educating" you, you are not going to want to learn from them.
Ha! They have higher direction than this advice!
I don't know, I think God is a pretty big fan of repentance...Which is what that is, no? Do you think God asked leaders to withhold information and put forth an incorrect narrative? Are leaders guilty of any wrongdoing here, or were they just following that "higher direction" you mentioned?

I learned at church, that when I hurt people, I should apologize and do my best to right my wrongs. It makes no difference to me whether I intended to hurt them or not. When I become aware of the mess I made, I apologize and try to fix it.
This reminds me of this exchange:
Joel wrote: June 21st, 2015, 8:23 am
Amonhi wrote:
Simon wrote:I cant speak for others, but this is one of my major concerns with the church.

Repentance usually involves acknowledging what has been done wrong. To me, the church as an institution, either needet to acknowledge that things like the priesthood ban, polygamy, shadow mountain massaker, have been wrong, and the work of men, and that the church as an institution needs to repent of that, or, it clearly and boldly needs to get declared that all of this has perfectly been the will and intent of the Lord. This is not about defending, this is about honesty and integrity, about trust and simply the way things needet to be. Christ made clear that his kingdom is a kingdom without secrets, but that all shall be made known. To pretent that all is well, when there still are some skeletons in the closet, is not a foundation upon which a healthy relationship can be built. People usually dont doubt the gospel, but the church. These are some of the major reasons why. All it needs to solve the matter, is honesty about it. Revelations from God about it surely wouldnt be a bad thing either. And though we can receive personal revelation about it, it doesnt set the hurch free from its own responsibility.
Don't hold your breath, Oaks said, ""I know that the history of the church is not to seek apologies or to give them,"

Love and Peace,
Amonhi
For reference purposes:

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inho
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by inho »

Joel wrote: November 14th, 2017, 8:13 am
I would like to know what Elder Christofferson was thinking. He had that smile in his face. Was he smiling in agreement, or was he thinking that things could have been worded differently?

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Joel
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by Joel »

inho wrote: November 14th, 2017, 8:30 am I would like to know what Elder Christofferson was thinking. He had that smile in his face. Was he smiling in agreement, or was he thinking that things could have been worded differently?

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TrueIntent
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Re: How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

Post by TrueIntent »

Arenera wrote: November 8th, 2017, 12:41 pm
mes5464 wrote: November 8th, 2017, 11:44 am I don't understand this thread. I just read the church's post on the origin of the Book of Abraham and I am at a loss as to what is the controversy?
Enthusiastic enmity...
I haven't read it recently but my understanding is that we have the pieces of the original papyrus Joseph translated, and now we can translate Egyptian, and the papyrus doesn't say anything that Jospeh claimed it said...or something like that.....can someone verify this? I believe in translation different anyway.....but for literalist, this is the issue. Anyway, that was one of the issues, but apparently there were others.

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