How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

[inho]

If you only come here or frequent LDS friendly sites you're only going to see the 'growth' narrative. It's not like that. Look for it and I promise, you'll see what's really happening.

what's happening to a huge demographic of our LDS brothers and sisters.

Where are you getting your information? I don't see anything, except here at LDSFF.

So you think that you know what really is happening? Maybe you have been visiting too much LDS hostile sites and your view is skewed. Are you really saying that Elder Cook was lying? Why would he do that? If he was lying and the truth would come out the harm done would be far greater than the benefits. I could believe that he would carefully choose his words so that there was some ambiguity, but his words (with the footnote) are direct and leave no room for interpretation.

[Thinker]

I'm talking about very active members who are suddenly confronted with a narrative that strongly contradicts what they were taught their whole lives. The church has every interest in concerning itself with these members. These are sheep who aren't even lost, they are scared and confused but who, in most cases, meet with local leaders who aren't prepared to address their concerns...

How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

I'm impressed that such a question is being asked - it shows honest intent to figure out the problem and address it.
I'd suggest several things, some of which have been mentioned...

1) Make it ok to discuss real concerns. What too often happens - and I've seen this over & over - is people find out some undeniable problems but they are so scared of bringing it up - that many won't even discuss it with their spouse - let alone a bishop! And some who have discussed it with a spouse have been threatened with divorce or divorced (raises my hand). We have no power over what GA's do (though ideally they'd admit mistakes) - we can only be a good, compassionate but insightful listener, when someone wants to discuss concerns with us. Don't judge people or lit as "anti-Mormon" - otherwise if it is undeniable proven lit - they will see YOU as anti-truth, anti-God.

2) Realize that blind faith is NOT stronger than faith that has been through scrutiny. Joseph Smith said that the truth will carve itself. If we have the truth - it cannot be harmed. If we don't have the truth, it ought to be harmed. To have a firm foundation is not just a casual option - but mandatory to get through these days! My guess is that Jesus had questioned a lot - and really took apart the religion surrounding him (Judaism) - didn't blindly accept it - but saw problems and did not place blind faith in it despite the problems. Similarly, Joseph Smith questioned a lot - and built a stronger faith as a result. Consider that none of us have "arrived" at the ultimate truth. Humbly consider that there is much more - and we will only be able to receive it if we're open to it. Fowler suggested 6 stages of faith... Jesus being at stage 6... and most members are stage 3. http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html

3) Acknowledge and correct the distorted belief that it's "all or nothing." Polarized (black or white, either/or) thinking is cognitive distortion and logical fallacy - and is one of the most harmful thoughts. http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/distortions.htm I know, we're taught, "you're either on the Lord's side or you're not." But no, that's not how it is - we are never 100% on the Lord's side nor are we ever 100% not on the Lord's side - but a mix. We are a messy mix - not just 100% apostate or 100% active - but a mix. The church doctrines are not either completely true or completely false.... some is true and some is false. The idea that it's got to be one extreme or the other gives people, who discover some problem with the church, no alternative - they figure "I found something wrong with the church, so the entire church must be wrong then."
I see some issues with the church (relevant TODAY - not his-story) - and I do not believe it morally or spiritually right to support those, but that doesn't keep me from attending and serving in - and appreciating the good of - the church.

[drtanner]

I'm talking about very active members who are suddenly confronted with a narrative that strongly contradicts what they were taught their whole lives. The church has every interest in concerning itself with these members. These are sheep who aren't even lost, they are scared and confused but who, in most cases, meet with local leaders who aren't prepared to address their concerns...

How do we best educate adult LDS members w/o losing them?

I'm impressed that such a question is being asked - it shows honest intent to figure out the problem and address it.
I'd suggest several things, some of which have been mentioned...

1) Make it ok to discuss real concerns. What too often happens - and I've seen this over & over - is people find out some undeniable problems but they are so scared of bringing it up - that many won't even discuss it with their spouse - let alone a bishop! And some who have discussed it with a spouse have been threatened with divorce or divorced (raises my hand). We have no power over what GA's do (though ideally they'd admit mistakes) - we can only be a good, compassionate but insightful listener, when someone wants discuss concerns with us. Don't judge people or lit as "anti-Mormon" - otherwise if it is undeniable proven lit - they will see YOU as anti-truth, anti-God.

2) Realize that blind faith is NOT stronger than faith that has been through scrutiny. Joseph Smith said that the truth will carve itself. If we have the truth - it cannot be harmed. If we don't have the truth, it ought to be harmed. To have a firm foundation is not just a casual option - but mandatory to get through these days! My guess is that Jesus had questioned a lot - and really took apart the religion surrounding him (Judaism) - didn't blindly accept it - but saw problems and did not place blind faith in it despite the problems. Similarly, Joseph Smith questioned a lot - and built a stronger faith as a result. Consider that none of us have "arrived" at the ultimate truth. Humbly consider that there is much more - and we will only be able to receive it if we're open to it. Fowler suggested 6 stages of faith... Jesus being at stage 6... and most members are stage 3. http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html

3) Acknowledge and correct the distorted belief that it's "all or nothing" - "either or." Polarized (black or white) thinking is cognitive distortion and logical fallacy - and is one of the most harmful thoughts. http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/distortions.htm I know, we're taught, "you're either on the Lord's side or you're not." But no, that's not how it is - we are never 100% on the Lord's side nor are we ever 100% not on the Lord's side - but a mix. We are a messy mix - not just Mormon or non-member... not just apostate or active - but we are a mix. The church doctrines are not either completely true or completely false.... some is true and some is false. The idea that it's got to be one extreme or the other gives people, who discover some problem with the church, no alternative - they figure "I found something wrong with the church, so the entire church must be wrong then." I see some issues with the church (relevant TODAY - not his-story) - and I do not believe it morally or spiritually right to support those, but that doesn't keep me from attending and serving in - and appreciating the good of - the church.

If you had to rank the “faith shaking” topics from people you personally know at this point what would they be? There may be better ways to approach each different topic, but am curious what those you know seem to have issues with.

[Thinker]

If you had to rank the “faith shaking” topics from people you personally know at this point what would they be? There may be better ways to approach each different topic, but am curious what those you know seem to have issues with.

Hm... Some faith shaking topics I've seen members struggle with...

*Financial concerns... charging for worthiness, charging based on income rather than as scriptures state "increase," not sharing tithes with the poor - despite Deut 14:28-29 command to (and hiding that scripture from curriculum), lack of financial transparency, church owned shopping malls and other "materialistic" pursuits.

*History... especially Joseph Smith and Brigham Young marrying many women, blacks being denied priesthood, MMM, treatment of Native Americans/Utes.

*Principles - various trivial doctrinal controversies like JS plagiarizing the bible in the BofM, animals that couldn't have been around during BofM times, but especially recent teachings that put down anyone who questions and other shaming teachings. Various inconsistencies, like in the essays.

*Practices - especially denying family members attendance in family temple weddings, despite JS inviting nonmembers to sealings. Also, leader worship - how at least 1 hour of every Sunday block was dedicated to studying prophets, rather than Christ.

*After the announcement about children of homosexual parents not being able to be baptized, many resigned, but I think it was silly - largely based on peer pressure, and lack of logic. Children of polygamy parents have not been able to be baptized for many years - but they had no problem of that before - it was the herd-mentality pushing the homosexual agenda that caused many to join in a gathering to resign. And some have regretted such a rash and careless move.

To get more of an idea, take a look on a forum that is mostly of people who have left the church, but are a bit obsessed with it. Warning: some of this forum is pretty trashy - cussing etc. - particularly in the "lower kingdoms." I do like that there is no moderating censoring generally (free speech) - but that also inspires some trash-talk. http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=1 New-Order-Mormon is a bit less offensive and used to be "middle way," but is now quite liberal and silences conservative views.

[drtanner]

If you had to rank the “faith shaking” topics from people you personally know at this point what would they be? There may be better ways to approach each different topic, but am curious what those you know seem to have issues with.

Hm... Some faith shaking topics I've seen members struggle with...

*Financial concerns... charging for worthiness, charging based on income rather than as scriptures state "increase," not sharing tithes with the poor - despite Deut 14:28-29 command to (and hiding that scripture from curriculum), lack of financial transparency, church owned shopping malls and other "materialistic" pursuits.

*History... especially Joseph Smith and Brigham Young marrying many women, blacks being denied priesthood, MMM, treatment of Native Americans/Utes.

*Principles - various trivial doctrinal controversies like JS plagiarizing the bible in the BofM, animals that couldn't have been around during BofM times, but especially recent teachings that put down anyone who questions and other shaming teachings. Various inconsistencies, like in the essays.

*Practices - especially denying family members attendance in family temple weddings, despite JS inviting nonmembers to sealings. Also, leader worship - how at least 1 hour of every Sunday block was dedicated to studying prophets, rather than Christ.

*After the announcement about children of homosexual parents not being able to be baptized, many resigned, but I think it was silly - largely based on peer pressure, and lack of logic. Children of polygamy parents have not been able to be baptized for many years - but they had no problem of that before - it was the herd-mentality pushing the homosexual agenda that caused many to join in a gathering to resign. And some have regretted such a rash and careless move.

To get more of an idea, take a look on a forum that is mostly of people who have left the church, but are a bit obsessed with it. Warning: some of this forum is pretty trashy - cussing etc. - particularly in the "lower kingdoms." I do like that there is no moderating censoring generally (free speech) - but that also inspires some trash-talk. http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=1 New-Order-Mormon is a bit less offensive and used to be "middle way," but is now quite liberal and silences conservative views.

I have to be honest I'm surprised you know that many people that have these different concerns and left the church over it. I personally only know of one person from my entire life who has left because of an issue like this and it was because they had a son who came out and felt it was a choice between loving their son or the church. I do know the CES is starting to take a look at these issues. I have a friend in a stake presidency who is in charge of a region for seminary / institutes, and they have a list of 50+ issues that they received with explanations and were told they needed to study them inside and out. They made the comment that they need to become physicians and understand had to diagnose, treat, and medicate all of the problems and symptoms youth will face with history and issues in the church.

[True]

My brother-in-law just had three siblings and their spouses leave the church. I have 4 cousins and their spouses who have left, several friends and their spouses who have left and a sister who has issues. All of those are from Joseph Smith/ gay concerns. Honestly, sometimes I think those issues are a cover for a life not lived in harmony with the gospel.

[justkeepswimming]

I certainly don't think I know more than E. Cook but I am in a position, as a nobody member from a nobodyville, who doesn't have to continue to promote the 'growth narrative' simply because it's one of the go-to proofs the church uses as evidence that the church has to be true. Notice, I'm not arguing the church is true or not, I love and willfully accept is as God's true church, but the growth narrative is no longer accurate. What I am suggesting is this: GAs are in a tricky spot where on one hand they have trained us to look at growth as very strong evidence that the church is true while on the other being confronted with the reality that growth is way down and will continue that trend. How do they reverse the narrative w/o losing the faith of the rank and file who have grown dependent on hearing that growth is evidence of truth?

Yesterday I made a post somewhere about the Paul Dunn fiasco and in that post I used the example of Elders Haight and Faust not wanting to disclose E. Dunns exaggerations to members for fear that it would hurt the faith of the members.

I think this is what is going on right now with the growth narrative. They have to, or think they have to, protect our collective faith by continually promoting growth as tangible real-time evidence of truth. This narrative will undoubtedly change in the coming 5-10 years, just watch for it.

As for growth stats, charts, they are easy to find and they are not anti mormons who promote them. Usually we find the narrative that we are subconsciously wanting to find or reinforce. If you want the growth narrative you'll get it for as long as they deem you need to hear it.

If you only come here or frequent LDS friendly sites you're only going to see the 'growth' narrative. It's not like that. Look for it and I promise, you'll see what's really happening.

what's happening to a huge demographic of our LDS brothers and sisters.

Where are you getting your information? I don't see anything, except here at LDSFF.

So you think that you know what really is happening? Maybe you have been visiting too much LDS hostile sites and your view is skewed. Are you really saying that Elder Cook was lying? Why would he do that? If he was lying and the truth would come out the harm done would be far greater than the benefits. I could believe that he would carefully choose his words so that there was some ambiguity, but his words (with the footnote) are direct and leave no room for interpretation.

[Thinker]

Hi DrTanner,
These are people I have met in person but I’m not close with everyone. There are support groups as well as forums - that’s how I’ve heard of all of these concerns. Personally, I don’t care too much about his-story - US history has some insane controversies but most Americans don’t give up citizenship because of it. Yet, some really get hung up on it. To me, what’$ affecting people NOW is more important.

[justkeepswimming]

You just summed up the entire point of my post! And not in a good way. Look at the immediate judgement you cast toward all of these adults, none of whom were EVER taught Joseph's actual history! They were taught an entirely different story, in effect misled, but when they find out they were misled, and they feel justifiably betrayed, hurt, lied to, instead of being met with sympathy, comfort and even empathy, they are instead cast aside by active mormons who say things like "honestly, sometimes I think those issues are a cover for a life not lived in harmony with the gospel."

YOU HAVE TO BE FREAKING KIDDING ME!

These adults don't leave because they want to sin. They feel lied to. Back to my original question, how do we educate them and retain them????

Not that you want it but my advice to you is this: Find out what they learned, try and empathize with them, don't let your insecurities drive your family relationships. The problem with these fractured families is we, the active mormons, are largely afraid to dialogue with them as if they have some kind of disease. Extend some empathy, not the assumption of sin. It's the single most detrimental thing we do as a culture to our brothers and sisters who have legitimate doubts and end up leaving.

My brother-in-law just had three siblings and their spouses leave the church. I have 4 cousins and their spouses who have left, several friends and their spouses who have left and a sister who has issues. All of those are from Joseph Smith/ gay concerns. Honestly, sometimes I think those issues are a cover for a life not lived in harmony with the gospel.

[True]

Well, since you don’t know them or me you are making judgements. I heard Dennis Prager make a profound statement. When he went to Columbia University, he noticed that those who were the most vocal leftist were the ones who needed a justification for their sexual depravity or other moral lapses.
In almost every case that I mentioned, there was a pornography, dishonesty in business or other serious moral problems. These problems cause extreme guilt until they can be justified. That is what I have noticed in the cases that I know the ins and outs of.

[True]

You don’t need to take it personally, I wasn’t talking about you. I’m sure there are people like you out there. I am the GGG grandchild of John D. Lee of Mountain Meadow Massacre fame so it’s hard for me to feel sorry for people who have a hard time with Joseph Smith.

[True]

The good thing about growing up a Lee is that all other historical issues are as nothing.

[justkeepswimming]

Marc, our church is filled with people you described. I was one of them. Baptized at 8 to fulfill more or less the cultural and family pressure my parents felt. I don't fault them now that I truly understand, as a father, the pressure they were under. I don't blame myself because I was groomed to be baptized at 8 from nursery on up. Our pews are full of these members. YOU are the exception, YOU appear to have a more grounded and solid spiritual relationship with the Comforter than most on this board and certainly more than the millions of people attending on Sundays, but yet you judge people like me at 8, my parents who were culturally pressured, for not having what you have today; a reliance on the spirit.

Your last quote about not following a bishop or even the prophet if he left is completely unrelateable in today's culture; a culture today that says on one hand pray about your answer, but on the other, your answer shouldn't deviate from the answer the brethren already have in store for you. Members become paralyzed with this mind-trap. I think you have actually forgotten how to empathize with the rank and file when you make it sound so simple. The issues I brought up in this post are very real, people are hurt and feel deeply betrayed by insufficient and ill prepared local leaders. To tell these members to focus on the spirit, focus on Christ, or share a quote about not getting lost following a group of men who have trained them to only follow them, shows an utter lack of empathy needed at the local level.

If I'm 22, you're my bishop, I just read all of the essays, and I'm legitimately questioning my belief in Jesus because I feel lied to by the church bearing his name, how are you going to empathize with me? What Comforter experiences have you had that best allow you to empathize with me? After all, isn't that why we identify so well with Jesus Christ's atonement; because we know that on our very individual level he can offer us healing through empathy; he's felt what we feel, he's hurt how we hurt, he's been in pain like we have. He doesn't just tell us to read this or that, to follow so and so, he gets us on a personal level that is almost eerie. Can you do that with the elder about to leave His church, and save him from himself?

[marc]

Marc, our church is filled with people you described. I was one of them. Baptized at 8 to fulfill more or less the cultural and family pressure my parents felt. I don't fault them now that I truly understand, as a father, the pressure they were under. I don't blame myself because I was groomed to be baptized at 8 from nursery on up. Our pews are full of these members.

I was one of them, too, for at least 40 years.

YOU are the exception, YOU appear to have a more grounded and solid spiritual relationship with the Comforter than most on this board and certainly more than the millions of people attending on Sundays, but yet you judge people like me at 8, my parents who were culturally pressured, for not having what you have today; a reliance on the spirit.

Maybe I'm the exception TODAY. I do have a more grounded relationship with Jesus Christ because in spite of everything I have suffered at home, school, church, work, etc in the last 48 years, I never gave up on Jesus Christ. I have had my "Alma experience," though. I don't recall judging you, however I apologize for doing so if I did. Please call me on it, though, because I may not always be aware when I judge. What I did do was ask questions to get you to think. That's when the Holy Ghost can work in your life. The more you ponder things, the more you open your mind and your heart to the influence of the Holy Ghost.

Your last quote about not following a bishop or even the prophet if he left is completely unrelateable in today's culture; a culture today that says on one hand pray about your answer, but on the other, your answer shouldn't deviate from the answer the brethren already have in store for you. Members become paralyzed with this mind-trap. I think you have actually forgotten how to empathize with the rank and file when you make it sound so simple. The issues I brought up in this post are very real, people are hurt and feel deeply betrayed by insufficient and ill prepared local leaders. To tell these members to focus on the spirit, focus on Christ, or share a quote about not getting lost following a group of men who have trained them to only follow them, shows an utter lack of empathy needed at the local level.

I used to be afraid of what people thought about me. I grew up in a dysfunctional home which fostered a very low sense of self esteem. It took decades to work it out. It took as long for me to disconnect from the "culture" and "traditions" and focus on the commandments and the doctrine instead. I remember that paralyzation well. I had to get over it. Fear breeds torment. I had to work on that for a while, too. I had to overcome the fear of being deceived and fear of being wrong. But I also knew that I couldn't live like this. What is the alternative? Quit on Jesus Christ? That is the ultimate alternative. "To whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life." What I try to do is to be as simple and plain like Nephi. Maybe that's why his brothers hated him. He didn't mince words. But everyone in the church has the same access to the scriptures and the same 24 hours. Please don't let my apparent lack of empathy be a stumbling block. But if you are an intelligent being, then the answer is simple. It is plain as Nephi said.

If I'm 22, you're my bishop, I just read all of the essays, and I'm legitimately questioning my belief in Jesus because I feel lied to by the church bearing his name, how are you going to empathize with me? What Comforter experiences have you had that best allow you to empathize with me? After all, isn't that why we identify so well with Jesus Christ's atonement; because we know that on our very individual level he can offer us healing through empathy; he's felt what we feel, he's hurt how we hurt, he's been in pain like we have. He doesn't just tell us to read this or that, to follow so and so, he gets us on a personal level that is almost eerie. Can you do that with the elder about to leave His church, and save him from himself?

When I was on my mission, I discovered that Joseph Smith was a Free Mason. My world collapsed. The more I learned, the more I panicked and felt deceived. I confronted my Mission President about it in a state of hysteria. He gently grabbed me by the shoulders and asked, "do you have a testimony of the gospel?" or something similar. I paused and answered frankly, "yes." He just nodded and didn't give me further attention. It perplexed me because Joseph was a Mason! It doesn't add up! But I trusted my testimony of Jesus Christ. The alternative was to give up on Jesus Christ and go home. But to what? Do we really think that God is not so powerful and merciful as to let us all fall, or to turn His back on us? We might as well all leave the church because Eve partook of the fruit and Adam did too.

Maybe you are still in that panic mode. As long as you fear, you will fall. And maybe it is because you do not trust God. You don't believe He is powerful enough to come to you if you humbly seek Him. Maybe if you think that if you listen to enough General Conference talks, something will magically happen for you. So I ask you, what are your expectations? If you were lying on your death bed right now, would you have that perfect brightness of hope in your salvation? And if the answer is no, wouldn't that be the most important thing to learn or begin learning right now? The answer has been available all along. If that big disaster suddenly took all our leaders, would that leave the Good Ship Zion adrift? Would you suddenly know how to listen to the Holy Ghost as you should have done from the beginning? Would you then begin to diligent study the scriptures? The answers are all there. They have always been there. But if you were stranded on a deserted island with no scriptures, would you not pray? And would you pray day and night unceasingly until like the brother of Jared, you were visited and saved? This mortal life is a blink of an eye and each of us might as well be stranded on an island with nothing but prayer to gain access to heaven and begin praying as if our lives depended on it. Because they do.

There's a saying. You don't offer a drowning man a drink of water. You want a life line. If you're drowning, you also don't want me to jump in the water next to you and say, I've been where you are and I know what it's like to drown. Even as you swallow water now and realize this might be your last breath. I can truly empathize with the paralyzing fear you are now experiencing. If I was your bishop, I would tell you what I told you in my first post: Receive the Holy Ghost. Receive it. If you don't know how, humble yourself as Alma who was in the gall of bitterness when he cried out for that life line to Jesus. Be as King Lamoni's father, a king, who prostrated himself on the floor and while face down, cried out to Jesus, "I will gave away all my sins to know thee!"

When I was so sick and tired of my old ways, sinful, fallen, carnal, wicked, wretched and self loathing, I cried and cried and cried unto the Lord. He didn't answer me as quickly as Alma or King Lamoni or King Lamoni's father. But the relief came and I felt that exquisite release. That healing. That peace. The life line arrived just as I was about to drink my last swallow of water and drown.

Start believing Jesus. Start praying like your life depends on it. Start praying hours on end until He answers. Start acquainting yourself with sore knees. This is the kind of education members don't want. It's the kind of education the ancient Israelites rejected when the Lord offered it to them through Moses and the same for the saints with Joseph Smith. People prefer their golden calfs. Stop panicking. Stop fearing. Start praying. Start crying out to Him. Start believing. Give away all your sins and your old ways to know Him. I would tell you all this if I were your bishop. I would ask if you would be willing to pray right now and I'd get down on my knees with you and stay right there with you all night in prayer if necessary. Would you be willing to pray all night and cry for relief? For peace? For answers? For knowledge? Tonight is a good night to start.

You gotta wanna change though, because God already knows whether or not you really do. And he will answer you accordingly.

[marc]

Even after reading my reply to you, I feel like I am not empathizing as you want, as a comforter. But I keep pointing you to Jesus Christ. I keep begging and pleading with you to turn to Him. I keep saying, stop trusting men, even me. But you keep wanting men to empathize and to comfort you and to reassure you. It's like we're literally talking past each other because you don't seem to want Christ, or at least what appears to be your hypothetical scenario. Why does your faith in Jesus hang on essays written by men you've never met?

Now if you said your faith in Jesus was wavering because he said to turn the other cheek and you've done this all your life or if you've forgiven 70 times 7 million or if you have walked the extra mile every day and then after doing all these things that Jesus said to do and you have not felt Him in your life, then I could understand your reasoning for turning away from Him. After all, you chose to "prove me herewith," as He said in the scriptures. If you want to prove the Lord, do what the Lord requires and then see if He will not bless you. The challenge in your mind and in your heart will be to separate what Jesus Christ personally taught with all the traditions, philosophies and teachings of men.

Next time you read an essay or a conference talk, ask yourself if Jesus Christ personally taught it. If He did, then keep it. If He didn't, file it under maybe or under no if it qualifies as a philosophy mingled with scripture, etc. After enough time, you will see clearly the things in the keep section because they unequivocally came from Him directly. Live your life according to these teachings until they produce fruit. The maybes don't matter as much, though are helpful and may be important. Everything else is just noise and fruitless.

[justkeepswimming]

Marc, I sincerely applaud you for sharing so much personal history, it is both refreshing to hear from real life people instead of the Nephis and Lehis of ancient scripture who are tough to relate to. The thing I love about you is you are both relatable and teachable so let me offer you some advice, I am not looking for someone to help me get to my knees and find Christ...been there done that as intensely as you have described so there's no sense in repeating it.

You haven't helped address the question I posed but rather exposed your ability to project what you think I need, which I am telling you I already have. I'm where you are and then some but, Marc, if you think this is actually Christ's church, not just some vehicle to find Christ, then you continue to miss the point of my post; there is a truth gap in today's narrative, these people are praying like crazy, they are not receiving the answers both you and I received. If they follow your plan, do all you told me to do, cry rivers of tears, give up all their sins, follow the 'marc playbook' to the T, and still no Jesus Christ...then what?

Marc, our church is filled with people you described. I was one of them. Baptized at 8 to fulfill more or less the cultural and family pressure my parents felt. I don't fault them now that I truly understand, as a father, the pressure they were under. I don't blame myself because I was groomed to be baptized at 8 from nursery on up. Our pews are full of these members.

I was one of them, too, for at least 40 years.

YOU are the exception, YOU appear to have a more grounded and solid spiritual relationship with the Comforter than most on this board and certainly more than the millions of people attending on Sundays, but yet you judge people like me at 8, my parents who were culturally pressured, for not having what you have today; a reliance on the spirit.

Maybe I'm the exception TODAY. I do have a more grounded relationship with Jesus Christ because in spite of everything I have suffered at home, school, church, work, etc in the last 48 years, I never gave up on Jesus Christ. I have had my "Alma experience," though. I don't recall judging you, however I apologize for doing so if I did. Please call me on it, though, because I may not always be aware when I judge. What I did do was ask questions to get you to think. That's when the Holy Ghost can work in your life. The more you ponder things, the more you open your mind and your heart to the influence of the Holy Ghost.

Your last quote about not following a bishop or even the prophet if he left is completely unrelateable in today's culture; a culture today that says on one hand pray about your answer, but on the other, your answer shouldn't deviate from the answer the brethren already have in store for you. Members become paralyzed with this mind-trap. I think you have actually forgotten how to empathize with the rank and file when you make it sound so simple. The issues I brought up in this post are very real, people are hurt and feel deeply betrayed by insufficient and ill prepared local leaders. To tell these members to focus on the spirit, focus on Christ, or share a quote about not getting lost following a group of men who have trained them to only follow them, shows an utter lack of empathy needed at the local level.

I used to be afraid of what people thought about me. I grew up in a dysfunctional home which fostered a very low sense of self esteem. It took decades to work it out. It took as long for me to disconnect from the "culture" and "traditions" and focus on the commandments and the doctrine instead. I remember that paralyzation well. I had to get over it. Fear breeds torment. I had to work on that for a while, too. I had to overcome the fear of being deceived and fear of being wrong. But I also knew that I couldn't live like this. What is the alternative? Quit on Jesus Christ? That is the ultimate alternative. "To whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life." What I try to do is to be as simple and plain like Nephi. Maybe that's why his brothers hated him. He didn't mince words. But everyone in the church has the same access to the scriptures and the same 24 hours. Please don't let my apparent lack of empathy be a stumbling block. But if you are an intelligent being, then the answer is simple. It is plain as Nephi said.

If I'm 22, you're my bishop, I just read all of the essays, and I'm legitimately questioning my belief in Jesus because I feel lied to by the church bearing his name, how are you going to empathize with me? What Comforter experiences have you had that best allow you to empathize with me? After all, isn't that why we identify so well with Jesus Christ's atonement; because we know that on our very individual level he can offer us healing through empathy; he's felt what we feel, he's hurt how we hurt, he's been in pain like we have. He doesn't just tell us to read this or that, to follow so and so, he gets us on a personal level that is almost eerie. Can you do that with the elder about to leave His church, and save him from himself?

When I was on my mission, I discovered that Joseph Smith was a Free Mason. My world collapsed. The more I learned, the more I panicked and felt deceived. I confronted my Mission President about it in a state of hysteria. He gently grabbed me by the shoulders and asked, "do you have a testimony of the gospel?" or something similar. I paused and answered frankly, "yes." He just nodded and didn't give me further attention. It perplexed me because Joseph was a Mason! It doesn't add up! But I trusted my testimony of Jesus Christ. The alternative was to give up on Jesus Christ and go home. But to what? Do we really think that God is not so powerful and merciful as to let us all fall, or to turn His back on us? We might as well all leave the church because Eve partook of the fruit and Adam did too.

Maybe you are still in that panic mode. As long as you fear, you will fall. And maybe it is because you do not trust God. You don't believe He is powerful enough to come to you if you humbly seek Him. Maybe if you think that if you listen to enough General Conference talks, something will magically happen for you. So I ask you, what are your expectations? If you were lying on your death bed right now, would you have that perfect brightness of hope in your salvation? And if the answer is no, wouldn't that be the most important thing to learn or begin learning right now? The answer has been available all along. If that big disaster suddenly took all our leaders, would that leave the Good Ship Zion adrift? Would you suddenly know how to listen to the Holy Ghost as you should have done from the beginning? Would you then begin to diligent study the scriptures? The answers are all there. They have always been there. But if you were stranded on a deserted island with no scriptures, would you not pray? And would you pray day and night unceasingly until like the brother of Jared, you were visited and saved? This mortal life is a blink of an eye and each of us might as well be stranded on an island with nothing but prayer to gain access to heaven and begin praying as if our lives depended on it. Because they do.

There's a saying. You don't offer a drowning man a drink of water. You want a life line. If you're drowning, you also don't want me to jump in the water next to you and say, I've been where you are and I know what it's like to drown. Even as you swallow water now and realize this might be your last breath. I can truly empathize with the paralyzing fear you are now experiencing. If I was your bishop, I would tell you what I told you in my first post: Receive the Holy Ghost. Receive it. If you don't know how, humble yourself as Alma who was in the gall of bitterness when he cried out for that life line to Jesus. Be as King Lamoni's father, a king, who prostrated himself on the floor and while face down, cried out to Jesus, "I will gave away all my sins to know thee!"

When I was so sick and tired of my old ways, sinful, fallen, carnal, wicked, wretched and self loathing, I cried and cried and cried unto the Lord. He didn't answer me as quickly as Alma or King Lamoni or King Lamoni's father. But the relief came and I felt that exquisite release. That healing. That peace. The life line arrived just as I was about to drink my last swallow of water and drown.

Start believing Jesus. Start praying like your life depends on it. Start praying hours on end until He answers. Start acquainting yourself with sore knees. This is the kind of education members don't want. It's the kind of education the ancient Israelites rejected when the Lord offered it to them through Moses and the same for the saints with Joseph Smith. People prefer their golden calfs. Stop panicking. Stop fearing. Start praying. Start crying out to Him. Start believing. Give away all your sins and your old ways to know Him. I would tell you all this if I were your bishop. I would ask if you would be willing to pray right now and I'd get down on my knees with you and stay right there with you all night in prayer if necessary. Would you be willing to pray all night and cry for relief? For peace? For answers? For knowledge? Tonight is a good night to start.

You gotta wanna change though, because God already knows whether or not you really do. And he will answer you accordingly.

[marc]

...If they follow your plan, do all you told me to do, cry rivers of tears, give up all their sins, follow the 'marc playbook' to the T, and still no Jesus Christ...then what?

What an odd question. Then my answer is they didn't believe. They just went through the motions. They really didn't want it. If a wretch like me can find that peace, that perfect brightness of hope, that anchor to my soul, then anybody can do it.

There's an old story and it fits with my previous drowning analogy. A young man who was a student of Socrates wanted to know the secret of success. Socrates told him that if he was really serious, he would meet him tomorrow on the shore at first daylight. The following morning, the student waited for Socrates to arrive at the shore. When Socrates came, he asked his student if he was really serious about wanting to know the secret. The student said he would do anything. Socrates walked out into the water and asked the young man to follow him. As they both got about chest deep, Socrates turned around to his student and then pushed his head down under the water. The student's arms flailed as he tried to come up for air, but the older and larger teacher kept his head under. The student tried with all his might to wrestle his head free from his teacher's grip, wriggling and kicking madly. Just as he was about to choke on his first gulp of water, Socrates released his grasp and pulled his student up and watched as he frantically breathed life giving air into his lungs. He then asked his student why he wrestled with him rather than just give up and die. The student said he desperately wanted to live. Socrates replied telling his student when he wants to succeed as desperately as he wanted air and to live, then he will succeed.

[inho]

I certainly don't think I know more than E. Cook but I am in a position, as a nobody member from a nobodyville, who doesn't have to continue to promote the 'growth narrative' simply because it's one of the go-to proofs the church uses as evidence that the church has to be true. Notice, I'm not arguing the church is true or not, I love and willfully accept is as God's true church, but the growth narrative is no longer accurate. What I am suggesting is this: GAs are in a tricky spot where on one hand they have trained us to look at growth as very strong evidence that the church is true while on the other being confronted with the reality that growth is way down and will continue that trend. How do they reverse the narrative w/o losing the faith of the rank and file who have grown dependent on hearing that growth is evidence of truth?

Yesterday I made a post somewhere about the Paul Dunn fiasco and in that post I used the example of Elders Haight and Faust not wanting to disclose E. Dunns exaggerations to members for fear that it would hurt the faith of the members.

I think this is what is going on right now with the growth narrative. They have to, or think they have to, protect our collective faith by continually promoting growth as tangible real-time evidence of truth. This narrative will undoubtedly change in the coming 5-10 years, just watch for it.

As for growth stats, charts, they are easy to find and they are not anti mormons who promote them. Usually we find the narrative that we are subconsciously wanting to find or reinforce. If you want the growth narrative you'll get it for as long as they deem you need to hear it.

I know that it is easy to find growth charts, but it is usually impossible or at least difficult to count how many people are leaving the church. Usually one must do some assumptions about demographics and how many people are dying each year and so on.

Elder Cook saved the trouble for us:

Over the last 25 years, the actual number of members leaving the Church has decreased and the Church has almost doubled in size. The percentage leaving is greatly reduced.

I see no good reason for him to lie about that. I agree with you that we as the church have put the growth narrative in a position were it is a witness of the truthfulness of the church. However, there are many far better alternatives to promote the narrative than a flat-out lie. Thus I am willing to think that what Elder Cook said is true.

[diligently seeking]

...If they follow your plan, do all you told me to do, cry rivers of tears, give up all their sins, follow the 'marc playbook' to the T, and still no Jesus Christ...then what?

What an odd question. Then my answer is they didn't believe. They just went through the motions. They really didn't want it. If a wretch like me can find that peace, that perfect brightness of hope, that anchor to my soul, then anybody can do it.

There's an old story and it fits with my previous drowning analogy. A young man who was a student of Socrates wanted to know the secret of success. Socrates told him that if he was really serious, he would meet him tomorrow on the shore at first daylight. The following morning, the student waited for Socrates to arrive at the shore. When Socrates came, he asked his student if he was really serious about wanting to know the secret. The student said he would do anything. Socrates walked out into the water and asked the young man to follow him. As they both got about chest deep, Socrates turned around to his student and then pushed his head down under the water. The student's arms flailed as he tried to come up for air, but the older and larger teacher kept his head under. The student tried with all his might to wrestle his head free from his teacher's grip, wriggling and kicking madly. Just as he was about to choke on his first gulp of water, Socrates released his grasp and pulled his student up and watched as he frantically breathed life giving air into his lungs. He then asked his student why he wrestled with him rather than just give up and die. The student said he desperately wanted to live. Socrates replied telling his student when he wants to succeed as desperately as he wanted air and to live, then he will succeed.

2nephi 31
...13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel...


Enos
Behold, it came to pass that I, Enos, knowing my father that he was a just man—for he taught me in his language, and also in the nurture and admonition of the Lord—and blessed be the name of my God for it
2 And I will tell you of the wrestle which I had before God, before I received a remission of my sins.
3 Behold, I went to hunt beasts in the forests; and the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart.
4 And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.
5 And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.
6 And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.
7 And I said: Lord, how is it done?
8 And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh; wherefore, go to, thy faith hath made thee whole.

[eddie]

...If they follow your plan, do all you told me to do, cry rivers of tears, give up all their sins, follow the 'marc playbook' to the T, and still no Jesus Christ...then what?

What an odd question. Then my answer is they didn't believe. They just went through the motions. They really didn't want it. If a wretch like me can find that peace, that perfect brightness of hope, that anchor to my soul, then anybody can do it.

There's an old story and it fits with my previous drowning analogy. A young man who was a student of Socrates wanted to know the secret of success. Socrates told him that if he was really serious, he would meet him tomorrow on the shore at first daylight. The following morning, the student waited for Socrates to arrive at the shore. When Socrates came, he asked his student if he was really serious about wanting to know the secret. The student said he would do anything. Socrates walked out into the water and asked the young man to follow him. As they both got about chest deep, Socrates turned around to his student and then pushed his head down under the water. The student's arms flailed as he tried to come up for air, but the older and larger teacher kept his head under. The student tried with all his might to wrestle his head free from his teacher's grip, wriggling and kicking madly. Just as he was about to choke on his first gulp of water, Socrates released his grasp and pulled his student up and watched as he frantically breathed life giving air into his lungs. He then asked his student why he wrestled with him rather than just give up and die. The student said he desperately wanted to live. Socrates replied telling his student when he wants to succeed as desperately as he wanted air and to live, then he will succeed.

2nephi 31
...13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel...


Enos
Behold, it came to pass that I, Enos, knowing my father that he was a just man—for he taught me in his language, and also in the nurture and admonition of the Lord—and blessed be the name of my God for it
2 And I will tell you of the wrestle which I had before God, before I received a remission of my sins.
3 Behold, I went to hunt beasts in the forests; and the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart.
4 And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.
5 And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.
6 And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.
7 And I said: Lord, how is it done?
8 And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh; wherefore, go to, thy faith hath made thee whole.

Thank you Jared, I think of Enos often, and how badly he wanted to be forgiven, and how mercifully and eloquolently he was forgiven...

[marc]

Along those lines, quoting Nephi, "full purpose of heart," "acting no hypocrisy," and "no deception," it is easy to deceive ourselves, too. Or in other words, to quote a friend of mine, which is worth repeating here:

God gives us what we want in life. Not what we would like to think we want in our conscious minds but what we actually want as demonstrated by our actions. So often we allow our actions to carry us in a path diametrically opposed to what we think we want. This, I believe, is the greatest source of regret and pain at the end of life. What we refuse to learn by precept, we must learn by experience. The former takes a great deal of humility--far more than most can muster. The trouble is that it takes so long to do the latter that by the time you own up to the fact that you are not the person you think you are, there isn't enough life left to do much about it.

[True]

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[Crackers]

I think you just outted yourself. Though I don't think there has been much doubt from the beginning. So if this is not Christ's church, and you profess that you have found Christ "and then some," why do you keep going to church, and why would you be concerned over whether we are losing LDS members?

but, Marc, if you think this is actually Christ's church, not just some vehicle to find Christ, then you continue to miss the point of my post;

[Thinker]

So if this is not Christ's church, and you profess that you have found Christ "and then some," why do you keep going to church, and why would you be concerned over whether we are losing LDS members.

I know your question wasn’t addressed to me, but I feel the need to respond.

Family is forever. Wards become families, & when you’ve grown up in the church, everyone in the church is pretty much like extended family. It’s beautiful. Relationships are about relating. It hurts not only when people who used to be close and relate well no longer relate, but it’s even more painful to be misunderstood and condemned based on those misunderstandings. So, at least for me, I want to be understood and to relate - to have good relationships.

Another thing is if you’re walking and all of a sudden you trip on something- and others are walking behind you, your first thought is to warn them - help them through so they don’t trip and hurt as you did. Going through a faith crisis was a difficult grieving process for me - and I wonder and hope maybe I could make it a little easier for others.

One battle between principles I choose to fight is defending family. I believe children deserve to NOT be denied a mom and dad - so I defend traditional marriage between a man & a woman & reject “rights” based on sexual deviations. I’ve gotten slack for that and for discouraging divorce when kids are involved (besides cases of abuse, affair, addiction). I also am pained to hear my spouse & other Mormon spouses threaten to break up a family over religious differences. How could someone put a church over their spouse and children? Talk about missing the mark! I want to help prevent families from breaking up over religious differences.

I mentioned Fowler’s stages of faith and how Christ is stage 6 & most active members are stage 3. The gospel could be summarized by love and joy - which come through progress. The parable of Adam and Eve leaving the garden represents in part, us moving on in different stages. Our parents provided kind of a garden - protecting us from the harshness of the world. Eventually we left that to progress, and maybe looked to other authority figures. Part of growing up... we lean on others as crutches. But inevitably those crutches fail us - they’re meant to! They are not God! As painful as it is to fall after being betrayed by someone you trusted - it inspires you to look where the real source of trust and pure love is - God. That doesn’t mean we no longer help each other - just that we trust in God more than man.

[inho]

I think you just outted yourself. Though I don't think there has been much doubt from the beginning. So if this is not Christ's church, and you profess that you have found Christ "and then some," why do you keep going to church, and why would you be concerned over whether we are losing LDS members?

but, Marc, if you think this is actually Christ's church, not just some vehicle to find Christ, then you continue to miss the point of my post;

To be fair, I think jks was trying to say how he understands marc's view. That was a relevant question, since my understanding is that marc is somehow affiliated with the Remnant movement (marc can correct me, if I have misunderstood).