Lucifer is smarter than we teach..

[JustDan]

Some of the long standing ideas that I have heard taught in church about Lucifer are plain wrong.

Lucifer is painted as being a fool. He ain't. He is smarter than we give him credit for.

I'll give two examples of teachings that are simply wrong.

1) "Satan has less power than his followers because he did not receive a body"

2) "Satan is the source of all sin"

I'm sure that these ideas are taught across the church. I'll expound a little to clarify the points.

Let's go back to the "council in heaven" and the subsequent war.

When God put forward the plan to send our spirits to earth for testing, it was clear that there would be a need for a Saviour. So we know the story about how Christ first put forward his proposal, and then Satan put forward his. We are taught that his idea was plainly wrong because it would deny us the opportunity to make choice which is imperative to our growth. Now, I'm thinking that is far too simplistic a criticism, because surely Satan would not have put forward a ridiculous idea that would have had no chance of being considered. But that point aside.

The interesting thing to learn from this story is one that is often overlooked. Not amongst the wise thinkers of this forum, but overlooked in general membership and lessons. It is clear that before Lucifer became Satan, that sin would enter the world. In other words, we had a need for saving before Lucifer turned against us. So, to say all bad, all sin is because of Lucifer is wrong. We have a part of us that even if Lucifer cancelled all work for his angels and had them take the day off, we would still be subject to sin, because our own natural and spiritual desires are not completely in line with God. The fact that Lucifer now works against us as Satan only adds to the problem.

Lucifer is often portrayed in church lessons to be a bit naive. Bit of a fool. His idea was ludicrous. He was plain wrong... and then to make it worse, by contending against God, he lost the opportunity to receive a body. In doing so, his own followers (e.g. Cain) are now more powerful than he is.

Sorry, but that can't be right. I know it makes sense in terms of our focus on the "physical body" and how important it is, but come on. This is Lucifer, son of the Morning. He is not a fool. He knows more than we know now. There is no way that Cain and such and such are any more powerful than he. This is Lucifer who led away 1/3 of all the children of God.

How could he achieve this if he was so foolish? Did he not realise that his decision to contend against God in open war (aka. War in Heaven) would mean that he would not have opportunity to be born on earth as a mortal and receive the physical body? Of course he would. He made a conscious decision to go without that body. Else, why not go through with it, and then turn against God? You see, despite remaining a spirit, he continues to be the powerful Satan that he is. All sons of perdition are below him.

So the idea that X person will have power over Satan, or even we will have power over him because we have a physical body is plain wrong. The idea that Satan is naive is wrong.

I suggest a lot of the ideas we have about him are wrong too. I feel that we need to recognise this is a powerful spirit who is stronger than we realise, and smarter than any of us here. Given that he did not pass through the veil (and we have very little teachings about him in scripture), I think we can be sure that he knows more than we know, and he is not what we make him out to be.

My thoughts...

[inho]

Now, I'm thinking that is far too simplistic a criticism, because surely Satan would not have put forward a ridiculous idea that would have had no chance of being considered.

What do you think of the idea that Satan's plan wasn't to exalt all but to let nobody to go to the outer darkness? That is what George Laub wrote in his Nauvoo journal after hearing Joseph's preach:

But Saten or Lucifer being the next heir and had alotet to him great power and authority, even prince of the Eir. He spake emediatly and boasted of himself Saying Send me I can save all Even those who Sined against the
Holy Ghost

I agree with you that we often give too much credit for Lucifer. We humans are able to sin even without him. Just like he was able to stand against God in the pre-existence without anyone to tempt him.

[oneClimbs]

Fire is incredibly destructive but nobody credits it with being smart per se. In one of Elder Bednar's books, he talked about how knowledge combined with understanding (a gift of the Spirit) equals intelligence which is acting with knowledge and understanding. He mentioned that Satan denies the Holy Spirit and therefore has no intelligence. He didn't have a plan, in the beginning, he stood for rebellion against the Father and Son. There was no "Lucifer's plan" as we commonly teach, he demanded the honor/power of God (D&C 29) and when he couldn't have it, he rebelled and took many with him.

Based on personal experience, these ones that followed him are not like us, they are hollow shells of beings if you can call them that. They are like fire, consuming without empathy, feeding on our responses and the power they get from influence. They care only for destruction, there's no plan.

[Durzan]

Lucifer wasn't the only Son of the Morning (IE one of the Great and Noble ones); there were other children of God besides him and Jesus who had the strength, willpower, and potential to take upon themselves the mantle of Savior and the responsibilities that come with it. We all knew that Heavenly Father had always intended Christ to perform that particular duty, so out of respect for the Father and the Son, we deferred our voices (besides, some of us had other tasks to perform that would prove to be very important in and of themselves); who better to trust as our Savior than the eldest brother, the one who was with Father since almost the very beginning of this Eternity, someone who looked up to Him with perfect humility, and who followed His example perfectly? If for some reason, Christ had not volunteered as expected, then I (and many others as well) would've gladly stood forward and taken up that bitter cup, BUT.. ONLY if asked by the Father.

Lucifer, however, was arrogant enough not only to contend with Christ for a position that was not rightfully his in the first place (unless asked), but to demand of Father that he be given all the credit... all the glory... all the power... all the agency for the plan that HEAVENLY FATHER designed and orchestrated. On top of that, he was less experienced, and had a different idea in mind for how to accomplish the goal that Heavenly Father put forth... an idea that would completely bypass one of the main points of this particular plan which Heavenly Father enacted: The plan to come to a mortal state, receive a body, and gain experience by experiencing a flawed mortal life.

[Alaris]

Jesus is firstborn not necessarily eldest (separate thread on this.) However I like what you said about Lucifers spot being replaced by the Davidic Servant Durzan. That totally fits with the Laub quote above. If Lucifer was foreordained to be the end times servant - the temporal messiah - then perhaps his pride got the better of him and he overstepped his purview. The sin against the Holy Ghost could be the mantle of those who take up that sacred duty and rebel.

Lucifer was a being of light and light is intelligence. No doubt he loses intelligence along with his light.

[kittycat51]

So the idea that X person will have power over Satan, or even we will have power over him because we have a physical body is plain wrong. The idea that Satan is naive is wrong.

If this were true, we should all just give up now. The temple endowment tells us that we ultimately have power over Satan.

[BeNotDeceived]

Fire is incredibly destructive but nobody credits it with being smart per se. In one of Elder Bednar's books, he talked about how knowledge combined with understanding (a gift of the Spirit) equals intelligence which is acting with knowledge and understanding. He mentioned that Satan denies the Holy Spirit and therefore has no intelligence. He didn't have a plan, in the beginning, he stood for rebellion against the Father and Son. There was no "Lucifer's plan" as we commonly teach, he demanded the honor/power of God (D&C 29) and when he couldn't have it, he rebelled and took many with him.

Based on personal experience, these ones that followed him are not like us, they are hollow shells of beings if you can call them that. They are like fire, consuming without empathy, feeding on our responses and the power they get from influence. They care only for destruction, there's no plan.

Good analogy

Really the poor fool plays second fiddle to most everyone, and dude done lost his free agency.

He has no choice, if an opportunity to make mayhem exists, he must act, even at the cost of revealing himself.

My post count was nearing his bad number when the board crashed, and hopefully others will draft 11 replies and quickly post them when their post count equals 659, or activate a similar strategy as others have done, since.

[JustDan]

Really the poor fool plays second fiddle to most everyone, and dude done lost his free agency.

See, this is what gets taught, and I don't agree.

What teachings/scripture do we have about Lucifer? Very little. Yet, we portray him as a fool. Second fiddle to us? I know that sounds all good, but I just don't see how that would be the case.

Think of this. 1/3 of all of God's spirit children chose to follow him. In simpler smaller terms, if there were 10 million spirit children, Lucifer managed to get circa 3 million of these to follow him. To deny God! To contend against God (knowing far more than we know now) and lose their own opportunity to receive a physical body.

You see, that is massive! That is a huge amount of rebellion - and all following a "poor fool". No, I'm not buying it. My own consideration is that there is far more to it. Not that we have been told a "lie", or that Lucifer is any way in the right. But I certainly don't accept the notion that he is a fool. I also don't accept that someone like Cain is now more powerful than Lucifer.

I mean.. Lucifer would be a fool if that were the case!

[JustDan]

So the idea that X person will have power over Satan, or even we will have power over him because we have a physical body is plain wrong. The idea that Satan is naive is wrong.

If this were true, we should all just give up now. The temple endowment tells us that we ultimately have power over Satan.

We have power in so far as we have agency.

Faith is power. If we choose to exercise our faith in Lucifer, then he has power over us.

For example, Voodoo is a power of evil. Some people fear it. They accept that is has power over them - but this is because they exercise their faith that it can. They believe it will have power over them. If you stand before a man of evil, but reject his power, exercise your faith only in the Lord, then that man can do you no spiritual harm.

[Robin Hood]

I don't think Lucifer is particularly smart... but he is very experienced.

[JustDan]

Lucifer wasn't the only Son of the Morning (IE one of the Great and Noble ones); there were other children of God besides him and Jesus who had the strength, willpower, and potential to take upon themselves the mantle of Savior and the responsibilities that come with it. We all of knew that Heavenly Father had always intended Christ to perform that particular duty, and so out of respect for the Father and the Son, we deferred our voices (besides, some of us had other tasks to perform that would prove to be very important in and of themselves); who better to trust as our Savior than the eldest brother, the one who was with Father since almost the very beginning of this Eternity, someone who looked up to Him with perfect humility, and who followed His example perfectly? If for some reason, Christ had not volunteered as expected, then I would've gladly stood forward and taken up that bitter cup, BUT.. ONLY if asked by the Father.

Curious. Where do you get this information from?

[Teancum]

I agree that he is not as dumb as some would like to believe. However, by ascribing him great power, intelligence, capacity, and dominion, we give him power through our fear. Because of fear, he is able to wield a great influence. Better to understand the danger, yet not have the fear which emboldens and strengthens him.

Fear God the Father, and reverence Him. Ascribe All power, majesty and might to Him who is truly all-powerful.

[SmallFarm]

Really the poor fool plays second fiddle to most everyone, and dude done lost his free agency.

See, this is what gets taught, and I don't agree.

What teachings/scripture do we have about Lucifer? Very little. Yet, we portray him as a fool. Second fiddle to us? I know that sounds all good, but I just don't see how that would be the case.

Think of this. 1/3 of all of God's spirit children chose to follow him. In simpler smaller terms, if there were 10 million spirit children, Lucifer managed to get circa 3 million of these to follow him. To deny God! To contend against God (knowing far more than we know now) and lose their own opportunity to receive a physical body.

You see, that is massive! That is a huge amount of rebellion - and all following a "poor fool". No, I'm not buying it. My own consideration is that there is far more to it. Not that we have been told a "lie", or that Lucifer is any way in the right. But I certainly don't accept the notion that he is a fool. I also don't accept that someone like Cain is now more powerful than Lucifer.

I mean.. Lucifer would be a fool if that were the case!

That was all before he fell. He isn't Lucifer, the light bearer, anymore. He is only Satan now.

[oneClimbs]

Satan is in a tough spot. He cannot risk having people do anything righteous or he would be causing them to glorify God and receive his Spirit. He must teach only those anti-principles that will bring glory to himself. Any time we obey him, we are giving him our honor instead of God Almighty. We choose his nothingness instead of God’s greatness. This is all he wants, it is what he wanted then and it is what he wants and receives now. He’s blind to all light and goodness and is like a drug addict seeking the high of people obeying him instead of God.

I don’t think words like fool or smart adequately convey what he is. I’d say he is cunning at feeding his hunger like a predator stalking prey.

Peter thought so as well: “ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:“ 1 Peter 5:8

[brianj]

Really the poor fool plays second fiddle to most everyone, and dude done lost his free agency.

See, this is what gets taught, and I don't agree.

What teachings/scripture do we have about Lucifer? Very little. Yet, we portray him as a fool. Second fiddle to us? I know that sounds all good, but I just don't see how that would be the case.

Think of this. 1/3 of all of God's spirit children chose to follow him. In simpler smaller terms, if there were 10 million spirit children, Lucifer managed to get circa 3 million of these to follow him. To deny God! To contend against God (knowing far more than we know now) and lose their own opportunity to receive a physical body.

You see, that is massive! That is a huge amount of rebellion - and all following a "poor fool". No, I'm not buying it. My own consideration is that there is far more to it. Not that we have been told a "lie", or that Lucifer is any way in the right. But I certainly don't accept the notion that he is a fool. I also don't accept that someone like Cain is now more powerful than Lucifer.

I mean.. Lucifer would be a fool if that were the case!

I think you are confusing parts of the timeline and concepts.

Satan is a fool. He thought he could win. He may still think he can win. Although he can win a few battles, although he can drag plenty of people down with him, he can't win and he will not win.

The definition of fool is not stupid person. A fool is one who acts imprudently or unwisely. Satan is very intelligent.

Satan is more powerful than Cain at this time, but Cain will be more powerful than Satan in Outer Darkness because Cain will have a physical body. And one day we all will look at Satan and be surprised at how insignificant he is. After the final judgement Satan and those with him will be nothing compared to those in the lowest degree of the Telestial Kingdom.

[Robin Hood]

Really the poor fool plays second fiddle to most everyone, and dude done lost his free agency.

See, this is what gets taught, and I don't agree.

What teachings/scripture do we have about Lucifer? Very little. Yet, we portray him as a fool. Second fiddle to us? I know that sounds all good, but I just don't see how that would be the case.

Think of this. 1/3 of all of God's spirit children chose to follow him. In simpler smaller terms, if there were 10 million spirit children, Lucifer managed to get circa 3 million of these to follow him. To deny God! To contend against God (knowing far more than we know now) and lose their own opportunity to receive a physical body.

You see, that is massive! That is a huge amount of rebellion - and all following a "poor fool". No, I'm not buying it. My own consideration is that there is far more to it. Not that we have been told a "lie", or that Lucifer is any way in the right. But I certainly don't accept the notion that he is a fool. I also don't accept that someone like Cain is now more powerful than Lucifer.

I mean.. Lucifer would be a fool if that were the case!

I think you are confusing parts of the timeline and concepts.

Satan is a fool. He thought he could win. He may still think he can win. Although he can win a few battles, although he can drag plenty of people down with him, he can't win and he will not win.

The definition of fool is not stupid person. A fool is one who acts imprudently or unwisely. Satan is very intelligent.

Satan is more powerful than Cain at this time, but Cain will be more powerful than Satan in Outer Darkness because Cain will have a physical body. And one day we all will look at Satan and be surprised at how insignificant he is. After the final judgement Satan and those with him will be nothing compared to those in the lowest degree of the Telestial Kingdom.

You're absolutely right.
Lucifer thinks it's a numbers game and subscribes to the doctrine of the "tyranny of the majority". He thinks that if he can win a majority to his side through either argument (war in heaven) or sin (tempation), he can legitimately depose God and conquer all.
He really is a fool.

[JohnnyL]

I also don't accept that someone like Cain is now more powerful than Lucifer.

I mean.. Lucifer would be a fool if that were the case!

Not now, but after the resurrection, isn't it?

[EdGoble]

Some of the long standing ideas that I have heard taught in church about Lucifer are plain wrong.

Lucifer is painted as being a fool. He ain't. He is smarter than we give him credit for.

I'll give two examples of teachings that are simply wrong.

1) "Satan has less power than his followers because he did not receive a body"

2) "Satan is the source of all sin"

I'm sure that these ideas are taught across the church. I'll expound a little to clarify the points.

Let's go back to the "council in heaven" and the subsequent war.

When God put forward the plan to send our spirits to earth for testing, it was clear that there would be a need for a Saviour. So we know the story about how Christ first put forward his proposal, and then Satan put forward his. We are taught that his idea was plainly wrong because it would deny us the opportunity to make choice which is imperative to our growth. Now, I'm thinking that is far too simplistic a criticism, because surely Satan would not have put forward a ridiculous idea that would have had no chance of being considered. But that point aside.

The interesting thing to learn from this story is one that is often overlooked. Not amongst the wise thinkers of this forum, but overlooked in general membership and lessons. It is clear that before Lucifer became Satan, that sin would enter the world. In other words, we had a need for saving before Lucifer turned against us. So, to say all bad, all sin is because of Lucifer is wrong. We have a part of us that even if Lucifer cancelled all work for his angels and had them take the day off, we would still be subject to sin, because our own natural and spiritual desires are not completely in line with God. The fact that Lucifer now works against us as Satan only adds to the problem.

Lucifer is often portrayed in church lessons to be a bit naive. Bit of a fool. His idea was ludicrous. He was plain wrong... and then to make it worse, by contending against God, he lost the opportunity to receive a body. In doing so, his own followers (e.g. Cain) are now more powerful than he is.

Sorry, but that can't be right. I know it makes sense in terms of our focus on the "physical body" and how important it is, but come on. This is Lucifer, son of the Morning. He is not a fool. He knows more than we know now. There is no way that Cain and such and such are any more powerful than he. This is Lucifer who led away 1/3 of all the children of God.

How could he achieve this if he was so foolish? Did he not realise that his decision to contend against God in open war (aka. War in Heaven) would mean that he would not have opportunity to be born on earth as a mortal and receive the physical body? Of course he would. He made a conscious decision to go without that body. Else, why not go through with it, and then turn against God? You see, despite remaining a spirit, he continues to be the powerful Satan that he is. All sons of perdition are below him.

So the idea that X person will have power over Satan, or even we will have power over him because we have a physical body is plain wrong. The idea that Satan is naive is wrong.

I suggest a lot of the ideas we have about him are wrong too. I feel that we need to recognise this is a powerful spirit who is stronger than we realise, and smarter than any of us here. Given that he did not pass through the veil (and we have very little teachings about him in scripture), I think we can be sure that he knows more than we know, and he is not what we make him out to be.

My thoughts...

I agree with some things that you said, but I don't like to bring things like this up, because speaking about it actually I think makes people think about it, and when people focus on these things, that in itself sometimes gives these beings power.

However, you are right that Satan was no fool. Satan's plan was multifaceted from the beginning with back-up plans. Of course he hoped he could win. He didn't know that he would not. But he also considered what he must do if he lost, and had all the ins and outs of that already calculated.

Satan didn't present a plan in pre-existence. He presented a lie, a carefully crafted lie. Cain wasn't the only liar from the beginning. And Satan and those that followed him in pre-existence actually conspired to present a lie at the Grand Council. They had created a secret combination in heaven with oaths and penalties. The plan was to get the Father to give his power to Satan, so that he could enslave us and take away our agency in that manner. But for those that were his minons, his fair promise wasn't to save them in righteousness. His promise was to make them rulers over us, like the King Men in the Book of Mormon. But also, to have their agency intact, so that they could proceed on to exaltation IN their sins without repentance. It is the lie of the Nehors, where people can be saved in their sins without repentance.

And when he said that "none will be lost", he wasn't talking about saving everyone in the Celestial Kingdom. Think about why homosexuality is so supported nowadays. It is because of bleeding heart syndrome, and manipulation of peoples emotions that makes it popular. It is manipulation of people's sentiments for justice and equality. In logical fallacy language this is called an appeal to emotion, where people are told how unfair it is for homosexuals to not be able to have equal marriage rights and equal this and equal that. In the pre-existence, Satan was manipulating people telling them how unfair it is that Sons of Perdition should be consigned to outer darkness without hope of redemption. You see, in latin languages, the word perdition, is derived from the verb perder (in Spanish for example), meaning, to be lost. So when we call them the Sons of Perdition, and Satan by the name perdition, we mean to say that they are "the lost". So, he was specifically talking about a controversy that he had started in pre-existence for manipulation of people's emotions toward those that would be "lost" or perdition, how unfair it was that all mankind would have some sort of glory and some sort of salvation regardless of what they do (with condition of repentance), all except those who are perdition. This was the other major controversy in the Grand Council, not just the controversy over agency. This is how he got people on his side, by demonizing the Father and the Son, saying how terrible it is that they would consign those of perdition to outer darkness without hope of salvation, and that he would take it upon himself to make sure that such an inequality would never occur, that if he could get the power of the Father, that he could save even those of Perdition. Because he would be saving everyone in their sins without repentance.

The only difference between Satan and Cain was that Cain had repented before it was too late. He was still one of the liars from the beginning, but didn't sin away his ability to repent and right be born.

However, just because Satan is smart, it doesn't stop the fact that his thinking is twisted. He is like a Sith, overcome by the power of the dark side. The clarity in his thinking has been affected, just like Anakin Skywalker, twisted by the dark side of the force, where his logic isn't entirely clear. But that doesn't stop him from being able to be very cold and calculating like any extremely intelligent criminal. But there is no light in him to clarify his thinking. He knows not the mind of God, even though he is very intelligent.

[Robin Hood]

Some of the long standing ideas that I have heard taught in church about Lucifer are plain wrong.

Lucifer is painted as being a fool. He ain't. He is smarter than we give him credit for.

I'll give two examples of teachings that are simply wrong.

1) "Satan has less power than his followers because he did not receive a body"

2) "Satan is the source of all sin"

I'm sure that these ideas are taught across the church. I'll expound a little to clarify the points.

Let's go back to the "council in heaven" and the subsequent war.

When God put forward the plan to send our spirits to earth for testing, it was clear that there would be a need for a Saviour. So we know the story about how Christ first put forward his proposal, and then Satan put forward his. We are taught that his idea was plainly wrong because it would deny us the opportunity to make choice which is imperative to our growth. Now, I'm thinking that is far too simplistic a criticism, because surely Satan would not have put forward a ridiculous idea that would have had no chance of being considered. But that point aside.

The interesting thing to learn from this story is one that is often overlooked. Not amongst the wise thinkers of this forum, but overlooked in general membership and lessons. It is clear that before Lucifer became Satan, that sin would enter the world. In other words, we had a need for saving before Lucifer turned against us. So, to say all bad, all sin is because of Lucifer is wrong. We have a part of us that even if Lucifer cancelled all work for his angels and had them take the day off, we would still be subject to sin, because our own natural and spiritual desires are not completely in line with God. The fact that Lucifer now works against us as Satan only adds to the problem.

Lucifer is often portrayed in church lessons to be a bit naive. Bit of a fool. His idea was ludicrous. He was plain wrong... and then to make it worse, by contending against God, he lost the opportunity to receive a body. In doing so, his own followers (e.g. Cain) are now more powerful than he is.

Sorry, but that can't be right. I know it makes sense in terms of our focus on the "physical body" and how important it is, but come on. This is Lucifer, son of the Morning. He is not a fool. He knows more than we know now. There is no way that Cain and such and such are any more powerful than he. This is Lucifer who led away 1/3 of all the children of God.

How could he achieve this if he was so foolish? Did he not realise that his decision to contend against God in open war (aka. War in Heaven) would mean that he would not have opportunity to be born on earth as a mortal and receive the physical body? Of course he would. He made a conscious decision to go without that body. Else, why not go through with it, and then turn against God? You see, despite remaining a spirit, he continues to be the powerful Satan that he is. All sons of perdition are below him.

So the idea that X person will have power over Satan, or even we will have power over him because we have a physical body is plain wrong. The idea that Satan is naive is wrong.

I suggest a lot of the ideas we have about him are wrong too. I feel that we need to recognise this is a powerful spirit who is stronger than we realise, and smarter than any of us here. Given that he did not pass through the veil (and we have very little teachings about him in scripture), I think we can be sure that he knows more than we know, and he is not what we make him out to be.

My thoughts...

I agree with some things that you said, but I don't like to bring things like this up, because speaking about it actually I think makes people think about it, and when people focus on these things, that in itself sometimes gives these beings power.

However, you are right that Satan was no fool. Satan's plan was multifaceted from the beginning with back-up plans. Of course he hoped he could win. He didn't know that he would not. But he also considered what he must do if he lost, and had all the ins and outs of that already calculated.

Satan didn't present a plan in pre-existence. He presented a lie, a carefully crafted lie. Cain wasn't the only liar from the beginning. And Satan and those that followed him in pre-existence actually conspired to present a lie at the Grand Council. They had created a secret combination in heaven with oaths and penalties. The plan was to get the Father to give his power to Satan, so that he could enslave us and take away our agency in that manner. But for those that were his minons, his fair promise wasn't to save them in righteousness. His promise was to make them rulers over us, like the King Men in the Book of Mormon. But also, to have their agency intact, so that they could proceed on to exaltation IN their sins without repentance. It is the lie of the Nehors, where people can be saved in their sins without repentance.

And when he said that "none will be lost", he wasn't talking about saving everyone in the Celestial Kingdom. Think about why homosexuality is so supported nowadays. It is because of bleeding heart syndrome, and manipulation of peoples emotions that makes it popular. It is manipulation of people's sentiments for justice and equality. In logical fallacy language this is called an appeal to emotion, where people are told how unfair it is for homosexuals to not be able to have equal marriage rights and equal this and equal that. In the pre-existence, Satan was manipulating people telling them how unfair it is that Sons of Perdition should be consigned to outer darkness without hope of redemption. You see, in latin languages, the word perdition, is derived from the verb perder (in Spanish for example), meaning, to be lost. So when we call them the Sons of Perdition, and Satan by the name perdition, we mean to say that they are "the lost". So, he was specifically talking about a controversy that he had started in pre-existence for manipulation of people's emotions toward those that would be "lost" or perdition, how unfair it was that all mankind would have some sort of glory and some sort of salvation regardless of what they do (with condition of repentance), all except those who are perdition. This was the other major controversy in the Grand Council, not just the controversy over agency. This is how he got people on his side, by demonizing the Father and the Son, saying how terrible it is that they would consign those of perdition to outer darkness without hope of salvation, and that he would take it upon himself to make sure that such an inequality would never occur, that if he could get the power of the Father, that he could save even those of Perdition. Because he would be saving everyone in their sins without repentance.

The only difference between Satan and Cain was that Cain had repented before it was too late. He was still one of the liars from the beginning, but didn't sin away his ability to repent and right be born.

However, just because Satan is smart, it doesn't stop the fact that his thinking is twisted. He is like a Sith, overcome by the power of the dark side. The clarity in his thinking has been affected, just like Anakin Skywalker, twisted by the dark side of the force, where his logic isn't entirely clear. But that doesn't stop him from being able to be very cold and calculating like any extremely intelligent criminal. But there is no light in him to clarify his thinking. He knows not the mind of God, even though he is very intelligent.

Some very interesting thoughts.
I haveoften thought about the war in heaven and the evil we see on earth today.
For example, if in the pre-existence I quite liked the idea of sinning; if I thought it sounded like fun etc, who would I vote for? Would I vote for the Father's plan which said I could sin if I wanted to, or Lucifer's which didn't give me that option?

That is why I believe we have both the best and worst people on earth today. I suspect Lucifer's followers were, for the most part, lukewarm timid non risk takers; at least to begin with.

[EmmaLee]

A good summary -

Satan’s Rebellion
By Mark A. Mathews
(Seminaries and Institutes)

What is the true nature of what Satan proposed in the premortal council?

When I was a young man, I began noticing a curious tendency among some Church members. When they saw a situation where rules were agreed upon and consequences for disobedience were applied (for example, in Church discipline, parental discipline, or enforcing mission rules or standards of conduct at Church schools), they would often say, “But isn’t that like Satan’s approach? Aren’t they forcing people to be righteous?”

This response was surprising to me at first—how could someone think that practices approved of by the Lord and His Church could be part of “Satan’s plan”? I have since come to realize that misunderstandings like this about Satan’s rebellion and the War in Heaven are actually quite common, as are hasty accusations of what looks like that plan today. Unfortunately, these doctrinal misunderstandings can lead to damaging results.

For example, these misunderstandings could lead some parents to think they cannot encourage their children to attend church. They can lead Church members to support the legalization of serious moral sin. And these misunderstandings can even lead some Church members to think that making and keeping covenants and commitments of obedience is somehow contrary to God’s plan when, ironically, such covenant obedience is central to God’s true plan of salvation.

What the Scriptures Say

Some ideas about what Satan proposed in the premortal world appear to come more from tradition than from actual revelation on the subject. As a result, it is helpful to return to the scriptures themselves to find out what the Lord has actually revealed on this important matter. In the scriptures, the primary source on what Satan proposed is in the first verses of the fourth chapter of Moses:

“And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

“But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

“Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

“And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice” (Moses 4:1–4).

The Father of All Lies

From these verses it is clear that our Heavenly Father did not ask for volunteers to invent and present different and competing plans of salvation, as some have assumed. Rather, it was our Heavenly Father’s plan, and He presented it to His spirit children who were gathered in the Grand Council in Heaven. Jesus Christ, who was “chosen from the beginning” to be the Savior in that plan, humbly proposed that Heavenly Father’s plan be sustained, saying, “Father, thy will [i.e., plan] be done.” It was in this setting that Satan made an unwelcome and arrogant proposal to change Heavenly Father’s plan so that it provided universal salvation for everyone (see Moses 4:1). Before we discuss how he claimed to accomplish this, it is important to note that Satan is referred to in these verses as “the father of all lies” (Moses 4:4). On another occasion he is called “a liar from the beginning” (D&C 93:25). We would be absurdly naïve to assume that Satan was telling the truth when he made this exaggerated claim of universal salvation.

If we understand Satan’s character and history, it would be more appropriate to view him as the first con man trying to sell us a product that he knew he could never provide. He alleged that he could give us all salvation if we would follow him rather than the plan our Heavenly Father had created for our salvation and which was upheld by our Savior Jesus Christ.

What Satan proposed was a lie. It would not have worked. It was not a viable alternative to Heavenly Father’s already perfect plan, but rather it was a trap set to ensnare and deceive people into following Satan. It was, in the end, a plan of damnation, not a plan of salvation.

Destroying Agency

Importantly, these verses of scripture do not clearly state how Satan proposed to carry out this lie. All that the scriptures state is that it would “destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3). President J. Reuben Clark (1871–1961), First Counselor in the First Presidency, suggested two main possibilities for what Satan proposed to do and reminded us that neither would have worked. He explained: “As I read the scriptures, Satan’s plan required one of two things: Either the compulsion of … man, or else saving men in sin. I question whether the intelligence of man can be compelled. Certainly men cannot be saved in sin” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1949, 193; quoted in Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual [2010], 15).

Although neither of these possibilities would have worked, we see elements of each in Satan’s efforts and tactics today. For example, compulsion and force are used today by tyrants seeking power over nations and by political activists who seek to limit religious freedom and compel society to accept sinful behavior. The Lord has specifically condemned the exercise of “control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness” (D&C 121:37).

However, the Lord also explained that power and influence can be used to encourage righteousness by loving persuasion, righteous reproof, and appropriate consequences (see D&C 121:41–43). This important clarification shows that carrying out proper Church and parental discipline, enforcing rules and standards in missions and Church schools, and establishing righteous laws in society are all practices approved of the Lord and not part of “Satan’s plan.” Honoring agency does not mean embracing anarchy.

The second possibility for how Satan proposed to save everyone is described in the Bible Dictionary: “Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication” (“War in Heaven”). In other words, another interpretation is that Satan proposed to save us all, no matter what we did. This would destroy agency by rendering it useless. If consequences of our choices were all removed and everyone received the same reward, our choices become meaningless and our agency is destroyed.

This interpretation of how Satan proposed to save us is also seen in many of his efforts and tactics that we are familiar with today. Satan is constantly promising people that they can live a life of sin and still be saved or that they can find happiness in wickedness. This seductive message of easy salvation and a lifestyle of sin is very popular today, as was Satan’s proposal in the War in Heaven, when “many followed after him” (Abraham 3:28).

We can see by these examples that Satan’s approach has not changed much since premortality. Satan continues to lie to people by promising them that if they follow him they will be saved or be happy or whatever else they want to hear. He also continues to use compulsion to try to force his unrighteous views and practices on others. Thus, “the warfare is continued in mortality. … The same issues are doing battle, and the same salvation is at stake” (Bible Dictionary, “War in Heaven”).

A Plan of Rebellion

Perhaps the simplest way to describe Satan’s plan is not based on speculative theories about what Satan proposed to do but on what his plan led him and his followers to actually do—that is, rebel. The scriptures repeatedly state that Satan openly rebelled against God. For example, the Lord declared that “Satan rebelled against me” (Moses 4:3); “an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God … rebelled against the Only Begotten Son” (D&C 76:25); and “he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power” (D&C 29:36).

From these verses it is clear that Satan’s proposal was not an innocent suggestion to amend God’s plan. It was a rebellion, a revolt, an attempted mutiny to dethrone God and take over heaven. Those who followed Satan declared war in heaven and made themselves enemies to God. Their agency was destroyed because they refused to choose “liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator,” and instead chose “captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself” (2 Nephi 2:27). As a result, “a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from [God] because of their agency” (D&C 29:36).

In other words, the simplest way to view Satan’s plan is as a plan of rebellion and disobedience to God. In contrast, God summarized His plan in these words: “And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them” (Abraham 3:25). In addition, “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3). Thus, God’s plan is a plan of obedience and righteousness, while Satan’s plan is one of disobedience and rebellion.

Recognizing the Plan

Properly understanding the difference between God’s plan and Satan’s goals will help us more clearly discern who is and who is not really following Satan. It will help us avoid accusing those who encourage righteousness and advocate obedience of following Satan’s plan when they are actually following God’s plan. It will also expose the true followers of Satan’s plan today.

Those who protest and rebel against God and His prophets, those who seek to change God’s plan, those who demand a lowering of the standards of righteousness and seek to compel others to accept immoral behavior, and those who seek to deceive people into believing that wickedness is happiness and that we can find salvation in sin all support different elements of Satan’s rebellious strategy.

May we follow Heavenly Father’s true plan, a plan of salvation “through the Atonement of Christ” and by “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3).

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/03/sata ... n?lang=eng