Deleted

[gclayjr]

CelestialAngel,

What's the point of being a high priest then if it's not necessary to our salvation?

What is the point of being a Bishop, a seventy, a Patriarch, or an Apostle, if it is not necessary for our salvation?

God has different intentions and callings for each of us, The only thing that is important is that we follow the path he wishes for us, and we need not worry if it is different from some one else's. If we do that we will be saved in the Celestial kingdom, and it won't matter that we didn't receive something that someone else did.

Regards,

George Clay'

[Finrock]

The answer is of course. It will be meaningless as far as the Church is concerned and doesn't give anyone any authority or privileges in the Church, but those things are just symbolic of something real and greater anyways. In other words, such a one would have no honors of men by virtue of his office or title, only by virtue of his works of righteousness.

-Finrock

So, George asked you this question;

Can a man in the year 2017, be Ordained a HP by God or the Holy Spirit WITHOUT being ordained by a man in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who is a HP?

And you answered 'The answer is of course.'

So, you know that this is false as far as LDS doctrine, principles, practices and teachings go--it's a 'false doctrine'.

This is what I mean, Finrock. I'm pretty sure you know this is not LDS doctrine, in fact it's a heresy--one that Denver Snuffer has built his religious movement on and other men have left the church and started their own churches because they believed this.

I'm not saying you can't believe heresies, but I'd appreciate it if you'd not pass them off as LDS doctrine. Some posters come here with less knowledge of the church's doctrines and you steer them down the wrong path with some of the things you share without explaining that what you are sharing is not LDS doctrine.

And this particular false doctrine has been instrumental in taking good LDS members out of the church and into apostate break off sects.

I understand that you believe these are heresies and I respect your opinion on this. Our religion allows us to believe and worship God according to the dictates of our own conscience. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't believe in dogma or creeds. I know there are members that do and who try to insist that we all conform to their particular creed, but, Church doctrine doesn't require this.

The source of our doctrine are the Standard Works. Everything I've stated can be found in the scriptures.

-Finrock

You are allowed to believe whatever you choose, but if you get up in church and try to teach what you've been claiming on this thread, you'll get told it is false doctrine. If you persist in trying to teach it or share it with others at church, and you refuse to stop, that could cause you to be brought in on charges of apostasy.

You are not teaching something that is in the scriptures, it is a heresy.

It doesn't come as a surprise to me that you think it is heresy because you aren't being objective or fair minded. I appreciate that you have this opinion and I respect your right to hold this opinion. I understand that you really believe what you are saying is true. I get that you don't believe this doctrine found in the scriptures and I won't force you to believe it. Your charges of heresy, apostasy, etc. are meaningless.

I get up and teach what I'm teaching at church all of the time.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

My responses in blue;

Finrock is not teaching false doctrine.

This argument is similar to the church's dual definition of apostasy. If you go to the LDS.org definition, it says that apostasy is turning away from Christ and His gospel. When you go to the Hamdbook, it says that apostasy is turning away from the church. These may seem to be the same thing to you, but there is a difference. If the church sincerely believes that a man may only become one of God's High Priests by having another man ordain him as such, and by no other way, then I would have to say that 2 Nephi 28:5 has been fulfilled, sadly.

As someone who claims to have spent a lot of time in the temple, I'm surprised you don't understand this simple basic teaching of the church. No one's baptism, sealing, ordinations, etc. are recognized unless they are done ON EARTH and by one having the proper authority. The same goes for being set apart to the office of a High Priest. You can't simply claim that God told you that you are a High Priest and the holy spirit of promise won't ratify an ordinance which has NOT actually taken place on earth. Do you get that? Finrock believes the HSofP will tell him he's a high priest--but in the LDS church, that's not how it works.

That's why we do temple work. It's necessary to have it done the ordinances on earth, so that it can be ratified by the HSofP and be efficacious in the eternities.

That's LDS doctrine, LIzzy. Finrock IS teaching false doctrine. He's teaching what Denver Snuffer teaches. Maybe that's why you are confused, --maybe you've been reading Denver's writings too much and you are getting them confused with actual LDS doctrines.

I have NEVER read anything written by Snuffer, nor listened to his speeches. Never? Given that you were a member in good standing in the ATHG private forum, I'm positive you couldn't have avoided reading at least some of his quotes. Heck, I've read a number of his blog posts and lectures and I don't try to claim otherwise. What I know has been taught to me through personal revelation, a lot of it while reading scripture in the temple when there were only a few patrons. My revelation also predated Snuffer's books by a couple years, as far as I can tell. Well, since you claim you haven't read ANYTHING of his, let me enlighten you--you would sympathize a lot with the things he says.
He also has a contempt for the Church leaders and is also critical of the church members and church culture, to which you can relate, apparently.
Jesus Christ knows who are His sheep, they are numbered unto Him, and He will not lose a single one. Therefore, if a person's path places him in a situation where his ordinances are not done in the LDS Church, he will still receive all that the Lord knows is his to inherit.But surely you know the church's position. The person will still need those ordinances completed by proxy--that's the whole purpose for the temple, you should know this! Conversely, a man may receive every single ordinance and honor and calling the LDS Church can bestow, but if he is not one of the Lord's sheep, he will not recognize Christ's voice, and none of those ordinances and callings will have any efficacy. I'm not disagreeing with this, the ordinances will not save an unrepentant, wicked person.

Have you inquired of the Lord on this?

I never said you were a follower of DS--as far as I've seen, you've never admitted you read or agreed with him, but I've read enough of your postings to know you share a 'likemindedness' with them) and you admitted that you are careful what you post on a 'public forum'.

But that's not important. What is important is what this disagreement is about.

Finrock doesn't believe an actual ordination is needed for a person to be a High Priest. He's free to believe whatever he wants, you are too, but both of you need to be careful of misrepresenting our church teachings. As a temple worker, I expect you know that the church does proxy temple ordinances because the church teaches that all saving ordinances, in order to be binding in heaven, MUST be done on earth--either for a living person or by proxy on behalf of a dead person. Then comes the holy spirit of promise which 'seals' the ordinance in heaven.

And, those who haven't had this work done, will still need it completed for them on earth, to enjoy the blessings in the eternities. This is LDS doctrine. That's why we have temples.

Suggesting that it is not necessary to have these ordinances, blessings, ordinations, through proper priesthood authority is out of harmony with the teachings of this church--and it's what Snuffer teaches and his followers believe. We've got a lot of closet Snufferites here and so this distinction must be made.

[AI2.0]

So, George asked you this question;


And you answered 'The answer is of course.'

So, you know that this is false as far as LDS doctrine, principles, practices and teachings go--it's a 'false doctrine'.

This is what I mean, Finrock. I'm pretty sure you know this is not LDS doctrine, in fact it's a heresy--one that Denver Snuffer has built his religious movement on and other men have left the church and started their own churches because they believed this.

I'm not saying you can't believe heresies, but I'd appreciate it if you'd not pass them off as LDS doctrine. Some posters come here with less knowledge of the church's doctrines and you steer them down the wrong path with some of the things you share without explaining that what you are sharing is not LDS doctrine.

And this particular false doctrine has been instrumental in taking good LDS members out of the church and into apostate break off sects.

I understand that you believe these are heresies and I respect your opinion on this. Our religion allows us to believe and worship God according to the dictates of our own conscience. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't believe in dogma or creeds. I know there are members that do and who try to insist that we all conform to their particular creed, but, Church doctrine doesn't require this.

The source of our doctrine are the Standard Works. Everything I've stated can be found in the scriptures.

-Finrock

You are allowed to believe whatever you choose, but if you get up in church and try to teach what you've been claiming on this thread, you'll get told it is false doctrine. If you persist in trying to teach it or share it with others at church, and you refuse to stop, that could cause you to be brought in on charges of apostasy.

You are not teaching something that is in the scriptures, it is a heresy.

It doesn't come as a surprise to me that you think it is heresy because you aren't being objective or fair minded. I appreciate that you have this opinion and I respect your right to hold this opinion. I understand that you really believe what you are saying is true. I get that you don't believe this doctrine found in the scriptures and I won't force you to believe it. Your charges of heresy, apostasy, etc. are meaningless.

I get up and teach what I'm teaching at church all of the time.

-Finrock

It's not about being 'objective or fairminded', this is about stating gospel doctrines accurately and this is not simply my opinion vs. your opinion.

You are claiming that it is not necessary for a man to be set apart as a High Priest in order to be a high priest--you claim all he needs is God's approval by the holy spirit of promise. This is an incorrect understanding of gospel doctrine;

D&C 107 clearly explains that men must be 'called and set apart and ordained unto this power' by those having the proper priesthood authority to do so, in order to hold priesthood and to be ordained to certain offices within the priesthood. The Holy spirit of promise's purpose is to validate in heaven, what has been done on earth.

And I seriously doubt you get up in church and say that you don't need to be ordained a High Priest by church leaders, but can become one by personal revelation from the Holy Spirit of Promise.

[AI2.0]

Finrock, we've been through this before--you didn't think baptism was necessary either. Remember how we all went round and round on that in an earlier thread, "Polarizing question'?
You seem to have a misunderstanding of the LDS doctrinal teachings on the importance of saving ordinances and ordinations needing to be done on earth by those having proper priesthood authority. They must be done on earth for those living or completed in a temple by proxy, for those who have died. That's why we have temples and complete temple work.

The Holy spirit of promise works differently than what you are claiming:

The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit of Promise (Acts 2:33). He confirms as acceptable to God the righteous acts, ordinances, and covenants of men. The Holy Spirit of Promise witnesses to the Father that the saving ordinances have been performed properly and that the covenants associated with them have been kept.

They who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise receive all that the Father has, D&C 76:51–60 (Eph. 1:13–14).

All covenants and performances must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to have force after this life, D&C 132:7, 18–19, 26.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/holy- ... e?lang=eng

The holy spirit of promise confirms ordinances which have been performed on earth and acknowledges that the covenants have been kept and the promises honored in the eternities.

[brlenox]

So, George asked you this question;


And you answered 'The answer is of course.'

So, you know that this is false as far as LDS doctrine, principles, practices and teachings go--it's a 'false doctrine'.

This is what I mean, Finrock. I'm pretty sure you know this is not LDS doctrine, in fact it's a heresy--one that Denver Snuffer has built his religious movement on and other men have left the church and started their own churches because they believed this.

I'm not saying you can't believe heresies, but I'd appreciate it if you'd not pass them off as LDS doctrine. Some posters come here with less knowledge of the church's doctrines and you steer them down the wrong path with some of the things you share without explaining that what you are sharing is not LDS doctrine.

And this particular false doctrine has been instrumental in taking good LDS members out of the church and into apostate break off sects.

I understand that you believe these are heresies and I respect your opinion on this. Our religion allows us to believe and worship God according to the dictates of our own conscience. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't believe in dogma or creeds. I know there are members that do and who try to insist that we all conform to their particular creed, but, Church doctrine doesn't require this.

The source of our doctrine are the Standard Works. Everything I've stated can be found in the scriptures.

-Finrock

You are allowed to believe whatever you choose, but if you get up in church and try to teach what you've been claiming on this thread, you'll get told it is false doctrine. If you persist in trying to teach it or share it with others at church, and you refuse to stop, that could cause you to be brought in on charges of apostasy.

You are not teaching something that is in the scriptures, it is a heresy.

It doesn't come as a surprise to me that you think it is heresy because you aren't being objective or fair minded. I appreciate that you have this opinion and I respect your right to hold this opinion. I understand that you really believe what you are saying is true. I get that you don't believe this doctrine found in the scriptures and I won't force you to believe it. Your charges of heresy, apostasy, etc. are meaningless.

I get up and teach what I'm teaching at church all of the time.

-Finrock

Honest question...When you teach this, what sources do you use to validate the material?

[diligently seeking]

D&C 88

Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you who have assembled yourselves together to receive his will concerning you:
2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.
3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son

[gclayjr]

JaredDBees,

D&C 88

Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you who have assembled yourselves together to receive his will concerning you:
2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.
3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son

I must admit that I waas interested in what Finrock might post to answer Brinox. I was looking forward to any good arguements he (or you) might make for your position.

However, I must admit confusion. The above quote not only has nothing to do with the question posed, I don't even see how it applies to the discussion at hand. Did I miss something, or were you just practicing your cut and paste skills?

Regards,

George Clay

[diligently seeking]

JaredDBees,

D&C 88

Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you who have assembled yourselves together to receive his will concerning you:
2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.
3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son

I must admit that I waas interested in what Finrock might post to answer Brinox. I was looking forward to any good arguements he (or you) might make for your position.

However, I must admit confusion. The above quote not only has nothing to do with the question posed, I don't even see how it applies to the discussion at hand. Did I miss something, or were you just practicing your cut and paste skills?

Regards,

George Clay

Mosiah 2

And these are the words which he spake and caused to be written, saying: My brethren, all ye that have assembled yourselves together, you that can hear my words which I shall speak unto you this day; for I have not commanded you to come up hither to trifle with the words which I shall speak, but that you should hearken unto me, and open your ears that ye may hear, and your hearts that ye may understand, and your minds that the mysteries of God may be unfolded to your view.

[Arenera]

Of recent times, both Elder Nelson and Elder Packer have suggested we don’t have power in the priesthood.

If there is no power, has the ordination been of value?

The power comes from accessing heaven. This is where the Holy Spirit of Promise, the Holy Ghost, Christ himself. This is also where the Church of the Firstborn is.

[gardener4life]

What's the point of being a high priest then if it's not necessary to our salvation?

Can you imagine being a god who was not also a High Priest? (or Priestess for women). Not saying if you aren't made a High Priest in this life you are barred from Godhood. But I do believe if Eternal progression is your destiny, at some point you will be ordained a High Priest. That's the gospel according to OI, though, I don't know if that's canon.

Can you start your car without car keys? Can you get in your house without a key to the door? However important your keys are for those, the priesthood is a more important key than those. Hope that helps. This is also why society degrading the value of the Priesthood ( and also Motherhood being sacred ) is a big deal.

[Arenera]

Of recent times, both Elder Nelson and Elder Packer have suggested we don’t have power in the priesthood.

If there is no power, has the ordination been of value?

The power comes from accessing heaven. This is where the Holy Spirit of Promise, the Holy Ghost, Christ himself. This is also where the Church of the Firstborn is.

Joseph’s words come to mind, “You might as well baptize a bag of sand if they don’t receive the Holy Ghost”. You might as well ordain a bag of sand if they don’t have the Holy Ghost and the power of God.

Alma said:3 I, Alma, having been consecrated by my father, Alma, to be a high priest over the church of God, he having power and authority from God to do these things, behold, I say unto you that he began to establish a church in the land which was in the borders of Nephi; yea, the land which was called the land of Mormon; yea, and he did baptize his brethren in the waters of Mormon.

7 Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God. Behold, they were in the midst of darkness; nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word; yea, they were encircled about by the bands of death, and the chains of hell, and an everlasting destruction did await them.

14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

We believe in God and Christ. Have we awoke unto God?

[brlenox]

Of recent times, both Elder Nelson and Elder Packer have suggested we don’t have power in the priesthood.

If there is no power, has the ordination been of value?

The power comes from accessing heaven. This is where the Holy Spirit of Promise, the Holy Ghost, Christ himself. This is also where the Church of the Firstborn is.

Having spent the past near couple of years working with and studying out Elder Nelson's instruction, I can assure you the ordination has been of absolute value. As well, having transitioned from a state of intermittent power in the priesthood to a state such as he has encouraged of consistent application in ways that I finally have a sense of understanding of and confidence of success that I have not known before I can witness to the fact that you need not question the ordinations. They are just fine. Individuals simply need to treat this as any other course where they need instruction and then seek it out.

As far as your last statement:

The power comes from accessing heaven. This is where the Holy Spirit of Promise, the Holy Ghost, Christ himself. This is also where the Church of the Firstborn is.

This is far to ambiguous for me to comment to as it relates to Elder Nelson instruction. Perhaps you might explain further.

[brlenox]

JaredDBees,

D&C 88

Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you who have assembled yourselves together to receive his will concerning you:
2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.
3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son

I must admit that I waas interested in what Finrock might post to answer Brinox. I was looking forward to any good arguements he (or you) might make for your position.

However, I must admit confusion. The above quote not only has nothing to do with the question posed, I don't even see how it applies to the discussion at hand. Did I miss something, or were you just practicing your cut and paste skills?

Regards,

George Clay

Tragically George, Finrock seems to have ceased to respond to my posts about his material. OR perhaps I am simply on his ignore list. My last two posts where I detail out his errant thought patterns have gone unrebutted. In fact since the Alvin, nobody needs baptism debacle where he had to admit to a degree of corrective perception he seems to have shied away from engaging me at all except for one side swipe a few weeks back. It appears he no longer has the courage to defend his positions when someone will hold him to the standard of scriptures and apostles and prophetic comparison and that's okay by me. That is the standard that should win out and illustrate mistaken notions.

[brlenox]

Finrock is not teaching false doctrine.

This argument is similar to the church's dual definition of apostasy. If you go to the LDS.org definition, it says that apostasy is turning away from Christ and His gospel. When you go to the Hamdbook, it says that apostasy is turning away from the church. These may seem to be the same thing to you, but there is a difference. If the church sincerely believes that a man may only become one of God's High Priests by having another man ordain him as such, and by no other way, then I would have to say that 2 Nephi 28:5 has been fulfilled, sadly.

Lizzy if you do sustain this and believe it to be true perhaps you can do for us what Finrock has been unwilling to do. What sources have led you to accept this doctrine. Is there an article, a few verses, or commentary which will provide insight on this principle?

[AI2.0]

Of recent times, both Elder Nelson and Elder Packer have suggested we don’t have power in the priesthood.

If there is no power, has the ordination been of value?

The power comes from accessing heaven. This is where the Holy Spirit of Promise, the Holy Ghost, Christ himself. This is also where the Church of the Firstborn is.

You don't give examples of where they said this, so I can only make an assumption, but from what I've read from both of them, it would be that men don't have 'power' in their priesthood if they lack faith, do not magnify it, are unworthy to exercise it, etc.--there are many reasons which would limit or blunt the power they have access to, through the ordination they've received. The ordination is still valid, as it stands, because of our merciful God who has compassion on his sons. Power in the Priesthood can be theirs, because men are always able to repent, rely upon the Lord and humble themselves to be able to give them power in their priesthood.

From the things that some have said, such as Finrock and Jaredbees, it seems they do not understand that the Holy Spirit of Promise does not 'ratify' or empower a person who does not have the office or the priesthood already bestowed. Some also seem to believe that when the Lord in D&C 121 said in 'amen' to the priesthood/authority of that man who practices unrighteous dominion etc., that this was some kind of final judgment-- this meant their priesthood ordination is no longer valid. Well, to me, that's obviously not what the Lord meant, because he always stands with his arms outstretched for us to humble ourselves, repent and come to him to heal us of our sins and infirmities--including the sin of unrighteous dominion. This is NOT what we believe in the LDS church--we believe that through the atonement, we can overcome our sins and iniquities and the Lord can use us to build his kingdom and serve our fellowmen. So, an ordination done on earth is not simply lost because all too human men make mistakes, but it will not do them any good when they are not worthy to exercise it.

The second comforter is Jesus Christ, but he is also God and the head of our church. He has set up a church which follows a pattern. He does not empower men or women outside the established pattern which he has set up, unless that system is irrevocably destroyed. If one has a testimony that the CofJCofLDS is the Lord's only true and living church on the earth today and is NOT in apostasy, then they will not trust or give heed to the claims of any man or woman who says that they've been called and set apart, given power, through God (or the holy spirit of promise, or an angel or vision etc.) directly . They will know that this is not how the Lord works. If they believe the church is the Lord's only true church, they will also believe that it is through staying on the strait and narrow path--living/following the teachings, practices and commandments in righteousness, as taught to them, then they will be heirs to salvation and members of the Church of the Firstborn.

[Arenera]

Of recent times, both Elder Nelson and Elder Packer have suggested we don’t have power in the priesthood.

If there is no power, has the ordination been of value?

The power comes from accessing heaven. This is where the Holy Spirit of Promise, the Holy Ghost, Christ himself. This is also where the Church of the Firstborn is.

You don't give examples of where they said this, so I can only make an assumption, but from what I've read from both of them, it would be that men don't have 'power' in their priesthood if they lack faith, do not magnify it, are unworthy to exercise it, etc.--there are many reasons which would limit or blunt the power they have access to, through the ordination they've received. The ordination is still valid, as it stands, because of our merciful God who has compassion on his sons. Power in the Priesthood can be theirs, because men are always able to repent, rely upon the Lord and humble themselves to be able to give them power in their priesthood.

From the things that some have said, such as Finrock and Jaredbees, it seems they do not understand that the Holy Spirit of Promise does not 'ratify' or empower a person who does not have the office or the priesthood already bestowed. Some also seem to believe that when the Lord in D&C 121 said in 'amen' to the priesthood/authority of that man who practices unrighteous dominion etc., that this was some kind of final judgment-- this meant their priesthood ordination is no longer valid. Well, to me, that's obviously not what the Lord meant, because he always stands with his arms outstretched for us to humble ourselves, repent and come to him to heal us of our sins and infirmities--including the sin of unrighteous dominion. This is NOT what we believe in the LDS church--we believe that through the atonement, we can overcome our sins and iniquities and the Lord can use us to build his kingdom and serve our fellowmen. So, an ordination done on earth is not simply lost because all too human men make mistakes, but it will not do them any good when they are not worthy to exercise it.

The second comforter is Jesus Christ, but he is also God and the head of our church. He has set up a church which follows a pattern. He does not empower men or women outside the established pattern which he has set up, unless that system is irrevocably destroyed. If one has a testimony that the CofJCofLDS is the Lord's only true and living church on the earth today and is NOT in apostasy, then they will not trust or give heed to the claims of any man or woman who says that they've been called and set apart, given power, through God (or the holy spirit of promise, or an angel or vision etc.) directly . They will know that this is not how the Lord works. If they believe the church is the Lord's only true church, they will also believe that it is through staying on the strait and narrow path--living/following the teachings, practices and commandments in righteousness, as taught to them, then they will be heirs to salvation and members of the Church of the Firstborn.

The Power of the Priesthood

Years ago a family gathered at the bedside of an aged little Danish woman. Among them was her middle-aged, wayward son. For the past number of years he had been living at home.

Tearfully he pleaded, “Mama, you’ve got to live. Mama, you can’t die.” He said, “Mama, you can’t go. I won’t let you go.”

The little mother looked up at her son and in her broken Danish accent said, “But ver is yo powah?”—where is your power?

The Price of Priesthood Power

In our Church, men are ordained to the Aaronic and Melchisedek priesthood by men who have been so ordained, mostly.

This is explained in D&C 84:

6 And the sons of Moses, according to the Holy Priesthood which he received under the hand of his father-in-law, Jethro;

12 And Esaias received it under the hand of God.

17 Which priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations, and is without beginning of days or end of years.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

28 For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.

35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the hea

As you can see by these verses in Section 84, men ordain other men, God ordains men, and angels ordain men.

And verse 42 makes it interesting!

[Arenera]

Of recent times, both Elder Nelson and Elder Packer have suggested we don’t have power in the priesthood.

If there is no power, has the ordination been of value?

The power comes from accessing heaven. This is where the Holy Spirit of Promise, the Holy Ghost, Christ himself. This is also where the Church of the Firstborn is.

Having spent the past near couple of years working with and studying out Elder Nelson's instruction, I can assure you the ordination has been of absolute value. As well, having transitioned from a state of intermittent power in the priesthood to a state such as he has encouraged of consistent application in ways that I finally have a sense of understanding of and confidence of success that I have not known before I can witness to the fact that you need not question the ordinations. They are just fine. Individuals simply need to treat this as any other course where they need instruction and then seek it out.

As far as your last statement:

The power comes from accessing heaven. This is where the Holy Spirit of Promise, the Holy Ghost, Christ himself. This is also where the Church of the Firstborn is.

This is far to ambiguous for me to comment to as it relates to Elder Nelson instruction. Perhaps you might explain further.

The scriptures are not ambiguous, but are veiled until a person awakes.

1 Nephi 2. This is before going to get the plates.
19 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying:
Blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith,
for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart.

1 Nephi 11. Nephi has perfect brightness of hope now.
1 For it came to pass after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen,
and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me,
as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord,
yea, into an exceedingly high mountain,
which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot.

2 And the Spirit said unto me: Behold, what desirest thou?

3 And I said: I desire to behold the things which my father saw.

Jacob 4. Jacob has the power.
6 Wherefore, we search the prophets,
and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy;
and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken,
insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us,
or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

D&C 84.
42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received,
which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens;
and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

Ok, is this ambiguous, or veiled?

[AI2.0]

Of recent times, both Elder Nelson and Elder Packer have suggested we don’t have power in the priesthood.

If there is no power, has the ordination been of value?

The power comes from accessing heaven. This is where the Holy Spirit of Promise, the Holy Ghost, Christ himself. This is also where the Church of the Firstborn is.

You don't give examples of where they said this, so I can only make an assumption, but from what I've read from both of them, it would be that men don't have 'power' in their priesthood if they lack faith, do not magnify it, are unworthy to exercise it, etc.--there are many reasons which would limit or blunt the power they have access to, through the ordination they've received. The ordination is still valid, as it stands, because of our merciful God who has compassion on his sons. Power in the Priesthood can be theirs, because men are always able to repent, rely upon the Lord and humble themselves to be able to give them power in their priesthood.

From the things that some have said, such as Finrock and Jaredbees, it seems they do not understand that the Holy Spirit of Promise does not 'ratify' or empower a person who does not have the office or the priesthood already bestowed. Some also seem to believe that when the Lord in D&C 121 said in 'amen' to the priesthood/authority of that man who practices unrighteous dominion etc., that this was some kind of final judgment-- this meant their priesthood ordination is no longer valid. Well, to me, that's obviously not what the Lord meant, because he always stands with his arms outstretched for us to humble ourselves, repent and come to him to heal us of our sins and infirmities--including the sin of unrighteous dominion. This is NOT what we believe in the LDS church--we believe that through the atonement, we can overcome our sins and iniquities and the Lord can use us to build his kingdom and serve our fellowmen. So, an ordination done on earth is not simply lost because all too human men make mistakes, but it will not do them any good when they are not worthy to exercise it.

The second comforter is Jesus Christ, but he is also God and the head of our church. He has set up a church which follows a pattern. He does not empower men or women outside the established pattern which he has set up, unless that system is irrevocably destroyed. If one has a testimony that the CofJCofLDS is the Lord's only true and living church on the earth today and is NOT in apostasy, then they will not trust or give heed to the claims of any man or woman who says that they've been called and set apart, given power, through God (or the holy spirit of promise, or an angel or vision etc.) directly . They will know that this is not how the Lord works. If they believe the church is the Lord's only true church, they will also believe that it is through staying on the strait and narrow path--living/following the teachings, practices and commandments in righteousness, as taught to them, then they will be heirs to salvation and members of the Church of the Firstborn.

The Power of the Priesthood

Years ago a family gathered at the bedside of an aged little Danish woman. Among them was her middle-aged, wayward son. For the past number of years he had been living at home.

Tearfully he pleaded, “Mama, you’ve got to live. Mama, you can’t die.” He said, “Mama, you can’t go. I won’t let you go.”

The little mother looked up at her son and in her broken Danish accent said, “But ver is yo powah?”—where is your power?

The Price of Priesthood Power

In our Church, men are ordained to the Aaronic and Melchisedek priesthood by men who have been so ordained, mostly.

This is explained in D&C 84:

6 And the sons of Moses, according to the Holy Priesthood which he received under the hand of his father-in-law, Jethro;

12 And Esaias received it under the hand of God.

17 Which priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations, and is without beginning of days or end of years.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

28 For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.

35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the hea

As you can see by these verses in Section 84, men ordain other men, God ordains men, and angels ordain men.

And verse 42 makes it interesting!

The story of the mother asking 'where is your power' reiterates what I said. Her son was ordained but not worthy which caused her to have no faith in his ability to bless her and him of course, to doubt himself as well. That didn't mean that he was past being able to repent and be able to bless with power. If I was sick and only an unworthy man was around to bless me, I'd ask for a blessing, because I believe if Heavenly Father has a blessing for me he can still bestow it because he is an ordained Priesthood holder; and because my faith and my worthiness allow me to receive the blessing--but that's just my feelings on this.


Verse 42 says; "And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which he yave received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you."

He did this, didn't he. Joseph as the prophet, received revelation by God's own voice out of the heavens and he and others were ministered to by those angels and heavenly hosts who had charge over them. But, if you think this means that God is going to ordain other men to the priesthood himself, ignoring the proper priesthood authority he set up and not use his duly called and appointed servants to do his work-- you are believing something that is not correct for LDS doctrine. It is also a belief that has led many to follow after various false leaders of break off sects. that's exactly what men like Ervil LeBaron, Roger Billings, James Strang, Christopher Nemelka and Denver Snuffer have claimed. They claim God spoke to them and told them they held the keys and were called and appointed/ordained to received revelation from God. If you are going to believe that God does in our day (when we have the true church on the earth) by directly ordaining some men without proper priesthood authority, then you run the risk of being deceived by these types of claimants.

I know the pattern which the church follows, I know that while you interpret this scripture a certain way, I interpret it so that it conforms to other scriptures that point out that a man must be called and set apart by those having authority, and since we have a church set up and men called who hold keys and authority, there is no reason to believe that God would go outside of his 'true and living church' to directly call or ordain others--as was necessary when his true church was not organized upon the earth.

[brlenox]

As far as your last statement:

The power comes from accessing heaven. This is where the Holy Spirit of Promise, the Holy Ghost, Christ himself. This is also where the Church of the Firstborn is.

This is far to ambiguous for me to comment to as it relates to Elder Nelson instruction. Perhaps you might explain further.

The scriptures are not ambiguous, but are veiled until a person awakes.

1 Nephi 2. This is before going to get the plates.
19 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying:
Blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith,
for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart.

1 Nephi 11. Nephi has perfect brightness of hope now.
1 For it came to pass after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen,
and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me,
as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord,
yea, into an exceedingly high mountain,
which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot.

2 And the Spirit said unto me: Behold, what desirest thou?

3 And I said: I desire to behold the things which my father saw.

Jacob 4. Jacob has the power.
6 Wherefore, we search the prophets,
and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy;
and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken,
insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us,
or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

D&C 84.
42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received,
which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens;
and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

Ok, is this ambiguous, or veiled?

When I responded was I responding to your use of scripture or your own comments? The scriptures are generally not an issue for me. However, your off the cuff commentary is not explicit enough to engender exactness in explanation or understanding so I am always having to come back and have you expand on something to make sure of what I think you are trying to say. This statement here:

The power comes from accessing heaven. This is where the Holy Spirit of Promise, the Holy Ghost, Christ himself. This is also where the Church of the Firstborn is.

This is the one that is ambiguous. It appears you could be implying a requirement of being a member of the church of the Firstborn to exercise priesthood power. In which case, if, ... if ... if I understand you correctly is absolutely false. However, before I presumed to understand what you were stating as it was unclear I thought I would ask. Then you toss out a nice smathering of scriptures as if it is the jam on your breakfast bagel and completes the meal when it does not tell me one whit about your interpretations of those scriptures and I do not know any more now than before of what YOU are trying to say. I feel like I am trying to grasp your intent but you are not helping in the least.

[Arenera]

Of recent times, both Elder Nelson and Elder Packer have suggested we don’t have power in the priesthood.

If there is no power, has the ordination been of value?

The power comes from accessing heaven. This is where the Holy Spirit of Promise, the Holy Ghost, Christ himself. This is also where the Church of the Firstborn is.

You don't give examples of where they said this, so I can only make an assumption, but from what I've read from both of them, it would be that men don't have 'power' in their priesthood if they lack faith, do not magnify it, are unworthy to exercise it, etc.--there are many reasons which would limit or blunt the power they have access to, through the ordination they've received. The ordination is still valid, as it stands, because of our merciful God who has compassion on his sons. Power in the Priesthood can be theirs, because men are always able to repent, rely upon the Lord and humble themselves to be able to give them power in their priesthood.

From the things that some have said, such as Finrock and Jaredbees, it seems they do not understand that the Holy Spirit of Promise does not 'ratify' or empower a person who does not have the office or the priesthood already bestowed. Some also seem to believe that when the Lord in D&C 121 said in 'amen' to the priesthood/authority of that man who practices unrighteous dominion etc., that this was some kind of final judgment-- this meant their priesthood ordination is no longer valid. Well, to me, that's obviously not what the Lord meant, because he always stands with his arms outstretched for us to humble ourselves, repent and come to him to heal us of our sins and infirmities--including the sin of unrighteous dominion. This is NOT what we believe in the LDS church--we believe that through the atonement, we can overcome our sins and iniquities and the Lord can use us to build his kingdom and serve our fellowmen. So, an ordination done on earth is not simply lost because all too human men make mistakes, but it will not do them any good when they are not worthy to exercise it.

The second comforter is Jesus Christ, but he is also God and the head of our church. He has set up a church which follows a pattern. He does not empower men or women outside the established pattern which he has set up, unless that system is irrevocably destroyed. If one has a testimony that the CofJCofLDS is the Lord's only true and living church on the earth today and is NOT in apostasy, then they will not trust or give heed to the claims of any man or woman who says that they've been called and set apart, given power, through God (or the holy spirit of promise, or an angel or vision etc.) directly . They will know that this is not how the Lord works. If they believe the church is the Lord's only true church, they will also believe that it is through staying on the strait and narrow path--living/following the teachings, practices and commandments in righteousness, as taught to them, then they will be heirs to salvation and members of the Church of the Firstborn.

The Power of the Priesthood

Years ago a family gathered at the bedside of an aged little Danish woman. Among them was her middle-aged, wayward son. For the past number of years he had been living at home.

Tearfully he pleaded, “Mama, you’ve got to live. Mama, you can’t die.” He said, “Mama, you can’t go. I won’t let you go.”

The little mother looked up at her son and in her broken Danish accent said, “But ver is yo powah?”—where is your power?

The Price of Priesthood Power

In our Church, men are ordained to the Aaronic and Melchisedek priesthood by men who have been so ordained, mostly.

This is explained in D&C 84:

6 And the sons of Moses, according to the Holy Priesthood which he received under the hand of his father-in-law, Jethro;

12 And Esaias received it under the hand of God.

17 Which priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations, and is without beginning of days or end of years.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

28 For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.

35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the hea

As you can see by these verses in Section 84, men ordain other men, God ordains men, and angels ordain men.

And verse 42 makes it interesting!

The story of the mother asking 'where is your power' reiterates what I said. Her son was ordained but not worthy which caused her to have no faith in his ability to bless her and him of course, to doubt himself as well. That didn't mean that he was past being able to repent and be able to bless with power. If I was sick and only an unworthy man was around to bless me, I'd ask for a blessing, because I believe if Heavenly Father has a blessing for me he can still bestow it because he is an ordained Priesthood holder; and because my faith and my worthiness allow me to receive the blessing--but that's just my feelings on this.


Verse 42 says; "And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which he yave received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you."

He did this, didn't he. Joseph as the prophet, received revelation by God's own voice out of the heavens and he and others were ministered to by those angels and heavenly hosts who had charge over them. But, if you think this means that God is going to ordain other men to the priesthood himself, ignoring the proper priesthood authority he set up and not use his duly called and appointed servants to do his work-- you are believing something that is not correct for LDS doctrine. It is also a belief that has led many to follow after various false leaders of break off sects. that's exactly what men like Ervil LeBaron, Roger Billings, James Strang, Christopher Nemelka and Denver Snuffer have claimed. They claim God spoke to them and told them they held the keys and were called and appointed/ordained to received revelation from God. If you are going to believe that God does in our day (when we have the true church on the earth) by directly ordaining some men without proper priesthood authority, then you run the risk of being deceived by these types of claimants.

I know the pattern which the church follows, I know that while you interpret this scripture a certain way, I interpret it so that it conforms to other scriptures that point out that a man must be called and set apart by those having authority, and since we have a church set up and men called who hold keys and authority, there is no reason to believe that God would go outside of his 'true and living church' to directly call or ordain others--as was necessary when his true church was not organized upon the earth.

Maybe v.42 has a higher meaning, maybe?

The Church of the Firstborn is the church of the Celestial Kingdom. If a person qualifies, might there be an ordination, maybe?

Christ will reign in the terrestrial world. Might a person qualify for the terrestrial world before the millennium starts, maybe?

If a person is being taught by the Lord himself, is she/he a Zion person, a terrestrial person, maybe?

[brlenox]

Maybe v.42 has a higher meaning, maybe?

The Church of the Firstborn is the church of the Celestial Kingdom. If a person qualifies, might there be an ordination, maybe?

Christ will reign in the terrestrial world. Might a person qualify for the terrestrial world before the millennium starts, maybe?

If a person is being taught by the Lord himself, is she/he a Zion person, a terrestrial person, maybe?

D & C 84:42

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

I fear I am as baffled as AI.20. Here is verse 42. Would you please take just a second and explain exactly what it means to you. Please make no assumptions that I can fill in the blanks. Detail it for me if you would please. Also, if you could tie it into the Price for Priesthood power comments of Elder Nelson that would tie it all together for me.

[Arenera]

Maybe v.42 has a higher meaning, maybe?

The Church of the Firstborn is the church of the Celestial Kingdom. If a person qualifies, might there be an ordination, maybe?

Christ will reign in the terrestrial world. Might a person qualify for the terrestrial world before the millennium starts, maybe?

If a person is being taught by the Lord himself, is she/he a Zion person, a terrestrial person, maybe?

D & C 84:42

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

I fear I am as baffled as AI.20. Here is verse 42. Would you please take just a second and explain exactly what it means to you. Please make no assumptions that I can fill in the blanks. Detail it for me if you would please. Also, if you could tie it into the Price for Priesthood power comments of Elder Nelson that would tie it all together for me.

Ok, let us reason together.

by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others

I take that literally. If you take it differently, then we see it differently. If a person is being taught by the Lord, wouldn’t they have to be at a certain spiritual level?

[drtanner]

Maybe v.42 has a higher meaning, maybe?

The Church of the Firstborn is the church of the Celestial Kingdom. If a person qualifies, might there be an ordination, maybe?

Christ will reign in the terrestrial world. Might a person qualify for the terrestrial world before the millennium starts, maybe?

If a person is being taught by the Lord himself, is she/he a Zion person, a terrestrial person, maybe?

D & C 84:42

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

I fear I am as baffled as AI.20. Here is verse 42. Would you please take just a second and explain exactly what it means to you. Please make no assumptions that I can fill in the blanks. Detail it for me if you would please. Also, if you could tie it into the Price for Priesthood power comments of Elder Nelson that would tie it all together for me.

Ok, let us reason together.

by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others

I take that literally. If you take it differently, then we see it differently. If a person is being taught by the Lord, wouldn’t they have to be at a certain spiritual level?

Again not sure where the wires are getting crossed. "taught by the Lord himself" does not mean "ordained by the Lord himself" Hence vs. 42 and the pattern that was restored by Christ through his servants to Joseph.

[Arenera]

Maybe v.42 has a higher meaning, maybe?

The Church of the Firstborn is the church of the Celestial Kingdom. If a person qualifies, might there be an ordination, maybe?

Christ will reign in the terrestrial world. Might a person qualify for the terrestrial world before the millennium starts, maybe?

If a person is being taught by the Lord himself, is she/he a Zion person, a terrestrial person, maybe?

D & C 84:42

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

I fear I am as baffled as AI.20. Here is verse 42. Would you please take just a second and explain exactly what it means to you. Please make no assumptions that I can fill in the blanks. Detail it for me if you would please. Also, if you could tie it into the Price for Priesthood power comments of Elder Nelson that would tie it all together for me.

Ok, let us reason together.

by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others

I take that literally. If you take it differently, then we see it differently. If a person is being taught by the Lord, wouldn’t they have to be at a certain spiritual level?

Again not sure where the wires are getting crossed. "taught by the Lord himself" does not mean "ordained by the Lord himself" Hence vs. 42 and the pattern that was restored by Christ through his servants to Joseph.

How do you know?