Are we born perfect?

[JohnnyL]

Please consider; however, the following:

Exodus 20:
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Numbers 14:
18 The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

It would seem that there can be "carry-over" of iniquity . . . be it "genetic" predispositions or "learned" behaviors that could be characterized as the "traditions" of the fathers. These things beg us to arrive at some type of understanding as to what this mortal "probation" is really all about and what it means to be "perfect."

We were not born perfect, we were born innocent.

Children are born innocent and "generally" naive. (I must make exception for those children who are called "home" prematurely - whose virtues I cannot fully know. I only speak of those who endure into "accountability.") These children bring with them "talents and gifts," as well as predisposed weaknesses - be they mental, emotional, physical, or circumstancial - based on race, creed, or socio-economic conditions. (And I am sure that all are aware of the relevant references.)

Doctrine and Covenants 46:
11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.

We are born innocent, but we are not born without what our spirits brought with them.

[JohnnyL]

If we were in a court of law and CaptianFN repeatedly said, "You don't know what you're talking about" as his rebuttle - it will not only be overruled but he'll likely be laughed out of the courtroom & asked not to return.

And if we were in a spelling bee you would have just lost the contest with your rendition of "rebuttle." But of course we are not in a spelling bee, nor are we in a courtroom.

Besides, I don't know where you're getting the notion that logical fallacies aren't allowed in court. Here it is again:

Brlenox,
Maybe while you're at it, you ought to go to the American Bar Association and explain to them your belief that personal attacks are logical and should be allowed in courts of law - and also have them take it off the list of logical fallacies.

Where do you get the idea that the ABA maintains a list of logical fallacies, or that they are some kind of authority on the matter? Do you think that logical fallacies are like legal objections? That a lawyer trying a case would stand up and say "Objection! No True Scotsman!" and the judge would rule on the logical soundness of the argument?

I can assure you this is not the case. Litigation is basically sales, it's all about who can sell their version of the law and the facts to the jury. And as such it full to the brim with logically fallacious arguments. Sure, if one lawyer pursues a fallacious line of reasoning, the opposing counsel is certainly free to point it out and try to explain why it's bogus. But sometimes this won't be the most persuasive tactic when dealing with a jury that isn't likely to be made up of the most logical thinkers.

I think what you have in mind is a list of trial objections. Not that there is a formal list, maintained by the ABA or anyone else. What exists is evidence law, or the rules of evidence, and the trial objections are a kind of shorthand that has emerged to refer to them in trial. Stuff like "argumentative," "hearsay," "asked and answered," etc. Those aren't logical fallacies, they're violations of the rules of evidence. Nobody gets thrown out of court and "asked not to return" for breaking those rules, they just have to regroup and make their argument in a way that complies with the rules of evidence. It's not like the judge is tallying up the number of sustained objections and whoever has the most loses the case or something. It's not a scoreboard.

Maybe you're thinking of something like a high school debate class? I don't have any experience with that kind of thing but it wouldn't surprise me if they use logical fallacies that way, as a teaching tool.

It depends on which court you are in.

[gardener4life]

We still carry the tendencies we had before this life with us. I have a brother who was a hellion before he was born and you can tell. Even from just 3 years old he was always a storm of anarchy all around him. If he'd had different parents he would still be the same. The question of if a person would have had different parents, would they still have certain traits I think helps to analyze this question in part.

This life still is a great gift to have a clean slate and start over. We sometimes don't see that because we see that we can't remember and have part of our identity hidden from us. But it's a huge gift to be able to start over and have a clean slate. Then we get the same chance to have a clean slate and new identity when we are baptized!

A natural man will be changed into a new person (put off the natural man and become a Saint, Mosiah 3:18-19) This is like becoming a new person.
There's also Paul's experience. I am no longer Saul but a new person in Christ. Now I am Paul.
Become as little children --> become the children of Christ --> become humble and meek, teachable so that we can become the Church of the Firstborn

Mosíah 5:7
And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ
Romans 8:16–17 (D&C 84:38), also Romans 4:13

While we aren't necessarily born perfect. if you think about this idea that the clean slate means a new chance to become a new person and a new special identity with Christ it becomes amazing to us that the disadvantages of this life are giving us more than we can comprehend right now.

Hope that helps.