Are we born perfect?

[Lizzy60]

I am wondering what the members of this forum believe about the ideas presented in this part of a speech given recently. Is he on a sound doctrinal foundation?

"Our scriptures reference the ‘mysteries of God’. I believe one of the ‘mysteries of God’ is His LGBTQ children and as I ‘diligently seeketh’ my eyes have been further opened.
#1: Born Perfect: this is the idea that everyone is born the way their Heavenly Father wants them to be born. He doesn’t make mistakes. For my LGBTQ friends, this means that their sexual orientation is not a mistake, they are not broken, there is nothing to fix, they aren’t struggling with anything and this should not be compared to an addiction (like pornography, drugs or alcohol) those are part of the world and need to be addressed. If you are straight, imagine your straight orientation being compared to an addiction like pornography, drugs or alcohol. That’s painful.
Instead, their orientation needs to be validated and supported. And their orientation is far more than their sexual orientation, but their very essence, and with that comes wonderful gifts, talents and Christlike attributes that enables their life mission to be accomplished. Yes, it is a trial – a brutal trial – but the trial is more about everyone coming to terms with someone’s orientation and seeing the associated goodness, beauty and gifts. Most of my gay friends get to the point where if God put a button in front of them and they could push it to be made straight that they wouldn’t push it, as it wipes out their very essence. That is a good spot to be in. Just like my straight friends wouldn’t push a button it to be made LGBTQ."

[Robin Hood]

I think this is way out of line and a totally false doctrine.
No one is born LGBTQ or whatever they want to call themselves.
This is the satanic lie of our age and needs to be put down.
It absolutely must not be permitted to take root in the church.

[kittycat51]

No. We are born into a fallen world. How can a baby with a genetic abnormality be perfect? Or one missing a limb? Or blind? Or deaf? I am one to believe that we knew in the premortal world what our challenges would be and we agreed to them. (makes me wonder what I was thinking with agreeing to mine! ) Thus our challenge in this life is to overcome, bear with or control.

This is a hot topic if you ask me. My personal opinion is that LGBT is a "lifestyle" choice for many but not ALL. I do believe some are born that way, and THAT in itself is the huge trial they were born with. I don't believe the notion that they were born perfect because God wanted them to be that way therefore rationalizing that it's okay to act upon those inclinations. He stated it's not:

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

I always wondered how I would handle this situation if one of my children turned out gay. I would teach them thus: There are MANY in the church who never have the opportunity to marry. Is this fair? No but such is the way of life. But if it is the case they are still to remain chaste, AND celibate. Such would be the case if you are gay or lesbian.

Remember life is not fair or perfect. The only person that is is Christ. It is through Him that we overcome the challenges of life to hopefully be made perfect some future day.

[David13]

I have got to agree with Robin Hood here.
And disagree 100% with kit kat. I don't not believe any of them are "born that way". I think sexuality and how to be a man or woman is all learned behavior.
You are born genetically AND YOU CANNOT CHANGE THAT. That is God given and unalterable.
A man cannot become a woman and a woman cannot become a man.
It's nonsense to think Bruce Jenner is a woman just because he had something cut off him. (If he did)
It's learned behavior, and a choice.
Yes a person can think they are horribly and irrevocably trapped in their sins. I have seen it many times with drugs, alcohol and cigarettes. They convince themselves they cannot possibly live without alcohol, drugs or even cigarettes.
However, their misconception is apparent when you consider they lived 10 or 20 years initially without those things, until they by choice took them up.

I was just born a drug addict is a good excuse, but not true. You developed an addictive personality in life, and then focused it on drugs.

The whole homosexual thing today is a real bandwagon. And of course there are many followers ready to jump on and ride along with the others. It gives them a sense of "belonging". But they belong to Satans army.
dc


Are we born perfect?

No. It's something we (hopefully) strive toward all our lives. With differing levels of success.

[Lizzy60]

Here is a link to the entire talk, given last weekend in Utah County, by a recently-released YSA ward Bishop in SLC, who is currently serving as an ordinance worker in the Salt Lake Temple. He quotes the statement by Elders Oaks and Christofferson that a member may express pro-LGBT and pro-gay marriage views in social media (and public talks too, I guess) without jeopardizing their temple recommends. He believes that somewhere down the road LGBT will be fully accepted by the Church.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2017/09/24/101938/

I am wondering how many active members of the church think and believe as he does, and how many see this issue along the lines that Robin Hood, kittycat, David, and I do.

I believe some gays are "born that way" not because God thought it would be good for them, but because we were in a probationary state before we came to earth, and some of our trials, imperfections, inclinations, etc were things we developed before coming here. We are not born with a "clean slate."

[eddie]

I will never believe anyone is born that way, God is our Father, would He do that? Nope, it's a choice.
Read Romans chapter 1

I believe we all have weaknesses, such as a propensity to steal, bear false witness, whatever it is, we have to fight it and not just say, " That's just the way I am."

[Robin Hood]

I will never believe anyone is born that way, God is our Father, would He do that? Nope, it's a choice.
Read Romans chapter 1

I believe we all have weaknesses, such as a propensity to steal, bear false witness, whatever it is, we have to fight it and not just say, " That's just the way I am."

Romans 1 is the best description of this issue in all scripture.
Reprobates!

[captainfearnot]

There's a good article on the subject by Daniel K. Judd of the Religious Studies Center at BYU. He mentions that Joseph Smith taught that "the truth takes a road between them both," referring to two prominent but opposing Christian views of the day, original sin vs. tabula rasa.

The Fortunate Fall of Adam and Eve

In my view, what we believe about the nature of LGBT people will evolve as our treatment of them does, just as it did with race. It was once widely held that blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence (so much so that the phrase still rolls off the tongue) because that belief was necessary in order to justify our racially disparate doctrines and policies. Now that those doctrines and policies have been abandoned, the belief about fence-sitters has as well.

If we want to justify anti-gay doctrines and policies, the most expedient belief is that being gay is a choice, and a sinful one. If that belief becomes untenable in light of scientific evidence, believers can easily shift the choice to the pre-existence, and the anti-gay doctrines are still justified. So I don't think our policies are bound by beliefs. I think we are going to do what we want to do (as individuals and as a church) and the beliefs justifying those actions will follow.

I think Brother Ostler's ideas are gaining steam for similar reasons as racial equality half a century ago, which boil down to the failures of segregation. It is much easier to formulate expedient beliefs about other people when you are able to keep them at a distance. This was tenable back when races were more segregated, but less so once integration became the norm.

Gay-straight segregation has typically been more psychological than geographic (in vs. out), but now that we are seeing more integration, people are less accepting of beliefs that consign gays to a lower class of personhood, whatever form that may take. Many more straights have personal relationships with gays than before, so they are able to evaluate the doctrines espoused by their religions against their own personal experience.

[Serragon]

There's a good article on the subject by Daniel K. Judd of the Religious Studies Center at BYU. He mentions that Joseph Smith taught that "the truth takes a road between them both," referring to two prominent but opposing Christian views of the day, original sin vs. tabula rasa.

The Fortunate Fall of Adam and Eve

In my view, what we believe about the nature of LGBT people will evolve as our treatment of them does, just as it did with race. It was once widely held that blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence (so much so that the phrase still rolls off the tongue) because that belief was necessary in order to justify our racially disparate doctrines and policies. Now that those doctrines and policies have been abandoned, the belief about fence-sitters has as well.

If we want to justify anti-gay doctrines and policies, the most expedient belief is that being gay is a choice, and a sinful one. If that belief becomes untenable in light of scientific evidence, believers can easily shift the choice to the pre-existence, and the anti-gay doctrines are still justified. So I don't think our policies are bound by beliefs. I think we are going to do what we want to do (as individuals and as a church) and the beliefs justifying those actions will follow.

I think Brother Ostler's ideas are gaining steam for similar reasons as racial equality half a century ago, which boil down to the failures of segregation. It is much easier to formulate expedient beliefs about other people when you are able to keep them at a distance. This was tenable back when races were more segregated, but less so once integration became the norm.

Gay-straight segregation has typically been more psychological than geographic (in vs. out), but now that we are seeing more integration, people are less accepting of beliefs that consign gays to a lower class of personhood, whatever form that may take. Many more straights have personal relationships with gays than before, so they are able to evaluate the doctrines espoused by their religions against their own personal experience.

I agree with you that we are well on our way to the cultural acceptance of homosexuality in the church. It started being taught in the last few years that it is not a choice.

I do not see any parallels to racial beliefs however. I think they are completely different.

Homosexuality has been condemned as a sin throughout all judeo-christian history. It has always been considered a choice throughout all of western history, even among those who heavily practiced it like the Greeks. These new ideas that it is normal and not a choice are simply propoganda without any scientific or historical basis.

By contrast, there is both religious and historical precedent for allowing people of african descent to have the priesthood. The scriptural references used to validate the policy to keep them from holding the priesthood were not explicit, and blacks throughout the judeo-christian world had been able to be priests.

In fact, the belief that blacks should not hold the priesthood was a new belief wrought in America and coincided with the popular cultural belief at the time. That belief is the equivalent of the belief that homosexuality is normal and not a choice. That belief also is new, wrought in America, and coincides with the popular cultural belief at the time.

I think the Church was wrong to withhold the priesthood from those of African descent. I think they have been correct to consider homosexuality a sin and a choice.

[captainfearnot]

I agree with you that we are well on our way to the cultural acceptance of homosexuality in the church. It started being taught in the last few years that it is not a choice.

I do not see any parallels to racial beliefs however. I think they are completely different.

Homosexuality has been condemned as a sin throughout all judeo-christian history. It has always been considered a choice throughout all of western history, even among those who heavily practiced it like the Greeks. These new ideas that it is normal and not a choice are simply propoganda without any scientific or historical basis.

By contrast, there is both religious and historical precedent for allowing people of african descent to have the priesthood. The scriptural references used to validate the policy to keep them from holding the priesthood were not explicit, and blacks throughout the judeo-christian world had been able to be priests.

In fact, the belief that blacks should not hold the priesthood was a new belief wrought in America and coincided with the popular cultural belief at the time. That belief is the equivalent of the belief that homosexuality is normal and not a choice. That belief also is new, wrought in America, and coincides with the popular cultural belief at the time.

I think the Church was wrong to withhold the priesthood from those of African descent. I think they have been correct to consider homosexuality a sin and a choice.

All good points, and I agree that there are big differences between race and homosexuality. My comparison was meant to illustrate the similarities between the two in the church evolving with societal norms, not to say that they are on the same ground as moral issues.

That being said, if the church does transition to full acceptance of LGBT, then all of the above will be moot. (That is, unless you make it the basis on which to part ways with the church.) And many of the ideas you are expressing here would have been vigorously disputed in the Church prior to 1978.

Therein lies another parallel. If this were the 1970s I might be arguing that the church extending the preisthood to blacks is similar to the church abandoning polygamy. And those who were okay with the earlier change but not the current one would point out that they are completely different, and with good reason.

[David13]

There's a good article on the subject by Daniel K. Judd of the Religious Studies Center at BYU. He mentions that Joseph Smith taught that "the truth takes a road between them both," referring to two prominent but opposing Christian views of the day, original sin vs. tabula rasa.

The Fortunate Fall of Adam and Eve

In my view, what we believe about the nature of LGBT people will evolve as our treatment of them does, just as it did with race. It was once widely held that blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence (so much so that the phrase still rolls off the tongue) because that belief was necessary in order to justify our racially disparate doctrines and policies. Now that those doctrines and policies have been abandoned, the belief about fence-sitters has as well.

If we want to justify anti-gay doctrines and policies, the most expedient belief is that being gay is a choice, and a sinful one. If that belief becomes untenable in light of scientific evidence, believers can easily shift the choice to the pre-existence, and the anti-gay doctrines are still justified. So I don't think our policies are bound by beliefs. I think we are going to do what we want to do (as individuals and as a church) and the beliefs justifying those actions will follow.

I think Brother Ostler's ideas are gaining steam for similar reasons as racial equality half a century ago, which boil down to the failures of segregation. It is much easier to formulate expedient beliefs about other people when you are able to keep them at a distance. This was tenable back when races were more segregated, but less so once integration became the norm.

Gay-straight segregation has typically been more psychological than geographic (in vs. out), but now that we are seeing more integration, people are less accepting of beliefs that consign gays to a lower class of personhood, whatever form that may take. Many more straights have personal relationships with gays than before, so they are able to evaluate the doctrines espoused by their religions against their own personal experience.

In other words ... moral relativism. It all depends on what you mean by right. And wrong.

No. It just isn't true.
dc

[kittycat51]

I have got to agree with Robin Hood here.
And disagree 100% with kit kat. I don't not believe any of them are "born that way". I think sexuality and how to be a man or woman is all learned behavior.
You are born genetically AND YOU CANNOT CHANGE THAT. That is God given and unalterable.
A man cannot become a woman and a woman cannot become a man.
It's nonsense to think Bruce Jenner is a woman just because he had something cut off him. (If he did)
It's learned behavior, and a choice.
Yes a person can think they are horribly and irrevocably trapped in their sins. I have seen it many times with drugs, alcohol and cigarettes. They convince themselves they cannot possibly live without alcohol, drugs or even cigarettes.
However, their misconception is apparent when you consider they lived 10 or 20 years initially without those things, until they by choice took them up.

I was just born a drug addict is a good excuse, but not true. You developed an addictive personality in life, and then focused it on drugs.

The whole homosexual thing today is a real bandwagon. And of course there are many followers ready to jump on and ride along with the others. It gives them a sense of "belonging". But they belong to Satans army.
dc


Are we born perfect?

No. It's something we (hopefully) strive toward all our lives. With differing levels of success.

Yes I agree with you...mostly. I do agree that most is learned behavior. BUT do you not understand that genetically there are in fact male and female sex chromosomes abnormalities that can and do occur? What about those who are born with naturally occurring intersex variation. This means that a person has biological characteristics that are both female and male. What would this do to their psyche?

[Elizabeth]

If the gender of the Spirit is not known then the righteous choice is to lead a single celibant life.

What about those who are born with naturally occurring intersex variation. This means that a person has biological characteristics that are both female and male. What would this do to their psyche?

[captainfearnot]

Here's an idea that just occurred to me. You guys know Steven E. Robinson's parable of the divers? That we are judged based on degree of difficulty?

Maybe everyone born with challenging circumstances—be they circumstantial or genetic—chose the harder life intentionally.

We always talk about mortality as if it were a reward for our performance in the pre-existence. Wow we are so lucky to be born in modern times, in a free country, in the true church... we must have been top brass in the War on Heaven. But maybe we have it exactly backwards. Mortality is not a reward, it's a probationary period.

I sometimes hear about missionaries called to cushy stateside missions who feel like they're not getting the true mission experience that their brothers in third world countries are getting. Missions are supposed to be hard, the thinking goes. Now, I think all missions have their own challenges and rewards, but the point is that nobody thinks of an easy mission as a reward for being a good teenager. The best kids should be challenged with the toughest missions. Same with school, kids aren't working their butts off in high school so they can get into the easiest colleges. They're trying to get into the hardest ones.

If you're sitting in the pre-existence with an eternal perspective, and mortality looks awfully short compared to the rest of your life, then maybe you're thinking you want that experience to count by making it as hard as possible. You want Navy SEAL training, not Air Force Basic. So you choose to be born gay, or black, or addiction-prone, or missing your legs, or all of the above and in the Dark Ages to boot—whatever. You want to prove you have what it takes to beat mortality on hardcore mode.

The rest of us were worried we couldn't handle all that, so we chose all the advantages of a much easier mortality. But we'll have to make much more of what we have been given in order to compete with everyone who chose a higher degree of difficulty.

[Michelle]

I am wondering what the members of this forum believe about the ideas presented in this part of a speech given recently. Is he on a sound doctrinal foundation?

"Our scriptures reference the ‘mysteries of God’. I believe one of the ‘mysteries of God’ is His LGBTQ children and as I ‘diligently seeketh’ my eyes have been further opened.
#1: Born Perfect: this is the idea that everyone is born the way their Heavenly Father wants them to be born. He doesn’t make mistakes. For my LGBTQ friends, this means that their sexual orientation is not a mistake, they are not broken, there is nothing to fix, they aren’t struggling with anything and this should not be compared to an addiction (like pornography, drugs or alcohol) those are part of the world and need to be addressed. If you are straight, imagine your straight orientation being compared to an addiction like pornography, drugs or alcohol. That’s painful.
Instead, their orientation needs to be validated and supported. And their orientation is far more than their sexual orientation, but their very essence, and with that comes wonderful gifts, talents and Christlike attributes that enables their life mission to be accomplished. Yes, it is a trial – a brutal trial – but the trial is more about everyone coming to terms with someone’s orientation and seeing the associated goodness, beauty and gifts. Most of my gay friends get to the point where if God put a button in front of them and they could push it to be made straight that they wouldn’t push it, as it wipes out their very essence. That is a good spot to be in. Just like my straight friends wouldn’t push a button it to be made LGBTQ."

We could put in a different sin and see if that changes the equation:

#1: Born Perfect: this is the idea that everyone is born the way their Heavenly Father wants them to be born. He doesn’t make mistakes. For my _______friends, this means that their ________ is not a mistake, they are not broken, there is nothing to fix, they aren’t struggling with anything and this should not be compared to an addiction (like pornography, drugs or alcohol) those are part of the world and need to be addressed. If you are ________, imagine your _______ orientation being compared to an addiction like pornography, drugs or alcohol. That’s painful.
Instead, their orientation needs to be validated and supported. And their orientation is far more than their ______ orientation, but their very essence, and with that comes wonderful gifts, talents and Christlike attributes that enables their life mission to be accomplished. Yes, it is a trial – a brutal trial – but the trial is more about everyone coming to terms with someone’s orientation and seeing the associated goodness, beauty and gifts. Most of my ______ friends get to the point where if God put a button in front of them and they could push it to be made _________ that they wouldn’t push it, as it wipes out their very essence. That is a good spot to be in. Just like my _________ friends wouldn’t push a button it to be made __________."

For simplicity's sake, start with the 7 deadly sins and see how far you get.
pride
greed
lust
envy
gluttony
wrath
sloth

I picked these because homosexuality can easily be compared to lust-satisfying one's sexual desires over the gospel principles of sexuality for procreation and an edifying eternal companionship. Also, many of these sins are in various ways promoted in our current society as beneficial or at least morally neutral rather than sins.

One more note, before anybody scoffs that no one feels that way about any of the sins. I have a sister who is currently struggling with (and has her whole life) an anger problem (wrath). She really believes she has no choice. She was, as you might guess, very angry about Pres. Uchtdorf's talk at the General Women's session a few days ago. I have another sister who struggles with sloth. She really believes it is not her fault that she does not work or support herself or even want to (She is 35, unemployed and has been for years, she lives with my mom.) Both struggle with gluttony. They argue they were born hating healthy food, so they shouldn't have to MAKE themselves eat it.

I love them both, they both have good traits. Their sins are not on that good list, nor do they make them more Christlike.

The problem with that notion that one should be proud of their sin flies in the face of good sense and God's truth. That because "we all sin differently" we should ignore the sin entirely and maybe even be proud of it is absolutely a lie of Satan.

I have many sins, but I am not proud of any of them. When I share them it is to ask for help, to find ways to overcome them, to acknowledge before the Savior my weakness and ask for the help of the Atonement.

[Rose Garden]

I think we have a mistaken notion of perfection. Jesus says those in the kingdom of heaven are like little children but we generally look at our little ones and feel they are highly imperfect. Perhaps perfection isn't about a life free from troubles or even internal struggles but rather about an attitude and the way you approach life's difficulties.

As for LGBTQ issues, I believe they are caused by a disunion between the physical and spiritual states. I don't believe those struggling with those things are to blame or that it is a choice they have made, at least not for most of them. I believe something caused them to have spiritual forces that are opposite their physical body.

I heard of a psychiatrist who was treating gay tendencies as a dissociative disorder. He was having great success in treating them and helping them come into harmony with their physical bodies. Unfortunately, his license was taken and he was put out of business. I can't remember his name so someone please help me out if you know of the man. Anyway, from what I can tell he also was seeing the problem as a divide between the physical body and the inner influences within a person.

From what I can tell, gay people are generally unhappy. I don't believe it is a natural, normal state for anyone. I also don't believe we should be even asking whether they are born that way or not. All we should be doing is accepting that they have particular struggles and doing what we can to support them as they seek solutions to their problems.

[Z2100]

I am wondering what the members of this forum believe about the ideas presented in this part of a speech given recently. Is he on a sound doctrinal foundation?

"Our scriptures reference the ‘mysteries of God’. I believe one of the ‘mysteries of God’ is His LGBTQ children and as I ‘diligently seeketh’ my eyes have been further opened.
#1: Born Perfect: this is the idea that everyone is born the way their Heavenly Father wants them to be born. He doesn’t make mistakes. For my LGBTQ friends, this means that their sexual orientation is not a mistake, they are not broken, there is nothing to fix, they aren’t struggling with anything and this should not be compared to an addiction (like pornography, drugs or alcohol) those are part of the world and need to be addressed. If you are straight, imagine your straight orientation being compared to an addiction like pornography, drugs or alcohol. That’s painful.
Instead, their orientation needs to be validated and supported. And their orientation is far more than their sexual orientation, but their very essence, and with that comes wonderful gifts, talents and Christlike attributes that enables their life mission to be accomplished. Yes, it is a trial – a brutal trial – but the trial is more about everyone coming to terms with someone’s orientation and seeing the associated goodness, beauty and gifts. Most of my gay friends get to the point where if God put a button in front of them and they could push it to be made straight that they wouldn’t push it, as it wipes out their very essence. That is a good spot to be in. Just like my straight friends wouldn’t push a button it to be made LGBTQ."

physcially? No. Spiritually? Yes. When we are born, we have committed no sin, so we are spiritually perfect, but not physically.

[eddie]

The only opposition to that is, I want my children to understand what a grevious sin it truly is, and that we don't conform to what society now says is alright. I have a gay friend, nice guy, but that doesn't make it an acceptable sin, nor does it say he was born that way. I have a problem with what's right is wrong and what's wrong is right." The ones who are prejudiced against are those who stand for truth and righteousness, and it will only get worse until the Lord comes with a sword.

[Z2100]

The only opposition to that is, I want my children to understand what a grevious sin it truly is, and that we don't conform to what society now says is alright. I have a gay friend, nice guy, but that doesn't make it an acceptable sin, nor does it say he was born that way. I have a problem with what's right is wrong and what's wrong is right." The ones who are prejudiced against are those who stand for truth and righteousness, and it will only get worse until the Lord comes with a sword.

I agree with you. I also believe we have several decades left until the Lord decides to clean his land.

[Michelle]

I don't believe those struggling with those things are to blame or that it is a choice they have made, at least not for most of them.

Kind of. It seems that many years ago, most had some sort of abuse in their life that led them to experience same sex attraction. Many still do. But in the last 20 years I would say that there are a large number that are being influenced by social pressure over abuse. Some being told that their mannerisms indicate they are homosexual and then moving in that direction and other simply looking for a social group to fit into. Another group would be those that simply test the idea out in their minds or by experimenting and deciding that they are not repulsed by it and therefore must be homosexual. So, I would still say it is a choice for many and a wound suffered by others, but because of the current climate, I do believe people who would otherwise never even consider such a course for their lives are embracing it, while honestly believing it is not a choice.

[PressingForward]

Yes, we are born perfect. What sin has a newborn committed?
No, we are not born homosexual. Homosexuality is a choice.
If/when the church ignores The Family, A proclamation to the world, I will no longer be a member of the Church as
It will be teaching false doctrine.

[oneClimbs]

Attractions are what they are. They represent a mortal perspective shaped by environment, ideology, perhaps even biology. We may not know how they develop or if they can be completely altered in this life in all cases, but we do have 100% control over our choices. We can feel drawn here or there but there is the path, we can either walk it or not. The path is strait and narrow, it is hard, it passes through mists of darkness, and it requires sacrifice. We were not born perfect, we were born innocent.

My old institute teacher once said: "Innocence is a state arrived at unknowingly, virtue is a state arrived at willingly." Christ's message was not "be who you are" it was "I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect." (3 Nephi 12:48) perfect meaning "whole, complete, finished."

I have struggled in many a dark abyss, both spiritual and physical. It would have been easier to not climb the mountain, to not struggle or sacrifice, but to not climb, that is a path of damnation.

[brianj]

Great discussion so far. I would also point out research from Johns Hopkins published last year that said there is no evidence to support the idea that people are born that way, sexually speaking. To the contrary, there is significant evidence that orientation changes as we change.

And we were not born perfect. We were born as Telestial beings with the ability to be tempted and to choose for ourselves.

When I joined the church, and when I went on a mission, the discussion pamphlets had a pyramid diagram to describe the end of the plan of salvation. The masses were at the bottom, in a Telestial glory. A smaller section sits in the middle, representing those who will have a Telestial eternity. And the special few were at the top, representing a Celestial future. I am now thoroughly convinced this is wrong. The pyramid was upside down.

Looking at historic mortality I believe that it's very likely a majority of those born on this planet didn't survive until age 8. The church teaches these people weren't old enough to sin so they will go to the Celestial Kingdom. I believe that one day we we will meet those who didn't survive until adulthood and many of us will say, "You're so lucky you didn't have to go through that!" The retort will be, "You're so lucky you were able to go through that! Tell us about it!"

[Ezra]

I would say yes we are born perfectly. Then we "learn" not to be.

Hopefully we also learn that we are not perfect and then try to learn how to be again. And or learn what we were taught that was false or twisted to which we Need to correct in our thinking.

If we had perfect parents I think there would be a pretty darn good chance that we would remain perfect through our life or nearly perfect.
People of Enoch would be a good example of this. When I say perfect I mean in our thoughts.

Physical though I don't believe any of us are perfect and won't be Tell resurrection.

[Michelle]

We were not born perfect, we were born innocent.

That was the exact phrase I thought when I wrote my last post!