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Alaris
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by Alaris »

Tithing is a law of exactness. Can you pay exactly 10 percent? Paying 9 percent is wrong just like being extra righteous to pay 11 percent is not obeying the law of exactness either.

Render unto Caesar the things which are caesar's and then render unto the Lord the things which are the Lord's. He gave the command in that order on purpose. You don't tithe the things which are caesar's. They were his to begin with just as the 10 percent on your net was the Lord's to begin with.
Matthew 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by LucianAMD »

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37084&start=60#p563137
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37084&start=60#p563161
This has been discussed before and I feel the links to the posts above describe the correct method well. Paying on what is left after needs and expenses, also known as increase or surplus, seems to consistent with section 119, and JST Genesis 14:39.

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Alaris
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by Alaris »

LucianAMD wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 10:06 pm viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37084&start=60#p563137
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37084&start=60#p563161
This has been discussed before and I feel the links to the posts above describe the correct method well. Paying on what is left after needs and expenses, also known as increase or surplus, seems to consistent with section 119, and JST Genesis 14:39.
If that were the case then perhaps the Lord would have said, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar, render unto yourself the things which are yours, and then render unto the Lord the things which are left over. ;)

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letsjet
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by letsjet »

I learned the hard way that if a person neglects paying their tithing after gaining a testimony of tithing then that person will "be cursed with a curse." It's a real curse too! You can take the Lord at his word. He doesn't merely withhold blessings, but he gives you an actual curse!

I used to pay tithing once a month, but still didn't feel very blessed. Finally I learned to pay my tithing as soon as possible. If I'm going to be out of town on Sunday, I make sure that my tithing gets paid in my absence.

I always pay on the gross. If someone gives me money for Christmas, I pay tithing on that. My son gets some benefits from the government for a disability, so I pay tithing on that.

I am the Financial Clerk in my ward and I feel very blessed! Paying tithing is a privilege. I go out of my way to make sure that I am a full tithe payer and I always round up to the next dollar. The blessings that I get from the Lord are truly amazing!

I used to think of myself as a full tithe payer, but after a self evaluation I realized I could do better. After I started paying my tithing as soon as possible I clearly recognized more blessings. Tithing is a great thing!

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gclayjr
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by gclayjr »

If you want the Lord to minimally fulfill his promise of blessings, pay net, If you want him to be more generous than minimum, pay gross. And use that as a guide for fulfilling all commandments, and performing all services.

Regards,
George Clay

Crackers
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by Crackers »

I agree with gclayjr. You can justify paying only net or even less (paying after expenses), but being generous in your interpretation and payment of tithes leads to the Lord being more generous with His blessings.

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passionflower
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by passionflower »

We have paid double tithing on gross income and never regretted it. If you are really in financial trouble, try this.

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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by brianj »

I usually pay tithing on my gross the same day I am paid.

It is very easy to justify paying less. The government takes away money so it's not really yours. You can't live without food or a home. Although there are cheap used cars on the market, you need a nice car to please your wife, so not paying tithing on all that money is perfectly reasonable. And you need to take your kids to Walt Disney World, right?

If I were foolish enough to pay tithing only on what's left over, I would pay almost nothing each month. And I would be getting almost no blessings. I need blessings desperately!

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Original_Intent
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by Original_Intent »

alaris wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 11:08 pm
LucianAMD wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 10:06 pm viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37084&start=60#p563137
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37084&start=60#p563161
This has been discussed before and I feel the links to the posts above describe the correct method well. Paying on what is left after needs and expenses, also known as increase or surplus, seems to consistent with section 119, and JST Genesis 14:39.
If that were the case then perhaps the Lord would have said, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar, render unto yourself the things which are yours, and then render unto the Lord the things which are left over. ;)
In a completely non-tithing related point, you've missed the point of that scripture completely.

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Original_Intent
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by Original_Intent »

Crackers wrote: September 23rd, 2017, 7:03 am I agree with gclayjr. You can justify paying only net or even less (paying after expenses), but being generous in your interpretation and payment of tithes leads to the Lord being more generous with His blessings.
This is interesting, because in the time that I have switched to paying after expenses (and I did so, I feel, by inspiration) virtually every aspect of my life has gotten better. Blessings of the best job of my career literally fell into my lap (I was not looking for work). Family life is great. Spirituality is still not where I'd like it to be, but it's good. While I feel I have many shortcomings, I feel the Lord is pleased with me.


Each person should do what they feel is right, and I agree that generosity is a very important and great trait to have. So be generous with others. Be generous with your fast offerings. But my personal feeling is do not try to "one up" the Lord on what he requests in regards to tithing. Certainly don;t try to shortchange Him, either!

I'm not trying to persuade anyone to pay one way or the other, but I would persuade you to seek the Lord's will and do it.

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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by larsenb »

I'm disinclined to pay tithing on money extorted from me by the IRS, a criminal organization in the service of the Fed and the deep state. If they give me a refund, this goes into my 'increase', otherwise not.

I feel very good about this.

Taxing personal income is one of the most intrusive, anti-freedom things that could be perpetrated by government-by-force, and the Founders had very good arguments against it. And it was adjudicated against by the SCOTUS in the late 1800's. Its part-and-parcel akin and allied with the total surveillance instituted by the NSA.

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Jesef
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by Jesef »

Tithing threads, ugh.
Last edited by Jesef on September 23rd, 2017, 2:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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gkearney
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by gkearney »

I think everyone should mind their own business as to how others pay their tithing.

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tmac
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by tmac »

It's been quite a while since I've visited LDSFF. And I have to echo "ugh" about the thought of another tithing thread. If, over time, there are two very worn-out subjects on LDSFF, they are tithing and plural marriage. As people come and go, those issues get discussed ad nauseam, over and over again, repeatedly re-hashing issues that have been thoroughly discussed and pounded into powder so many times before. And the biggest common theme in all the discussions is: "philosophies (and opinions) of men, mingled with scripture."

Every time I hear strong, definitive, absolute statements in the net vs. gross discussion it just makes me laugh -- and always serves as a reminder that the vast majority of people seem to be only addressing the issue from their employee-mentality perspective.

Despite cringing at the thought of engaging in this redundant discussion, as a self-employed farmer/rancher/businessman, let me offer a different perspective.

Gross vs. net means something very different when you're in business. I'll keep this simple. Let's assume that my small business generates gross income from sales in the amount of $1,000,000/year. But let's assume that the costs of goods and overhead (rent, utilities, wages to my employees, etc., etc.), add up to somewhere around $900,000, leaving me net profit of $100,000/year, which is not at all an unreasonable scenario. If I were to pay tithing on "gross", there would be no "net." Of the net profit, under the theory that so many people seem to espouse, I would pay the entire amount -- $100,000 -- as tithing on gross business income of $1,000,000. Can anyone get that to pencil? What would be the point of being in business? Maybe that's why so many are employees rather than in business -- letting someone else take all the risk and the financial brunt of this and so many other issues.

Gross vs. Net -- it's not quite as simple as some people try to make it out to be.

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shadow
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by shadow »

Businesses aren't supposed to pay tithing.

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tmac
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by tmac »

Businesses aren't supposed to pay tithing.
That would certainly make it easy for those I know (including a lot of family farmers and ranchers) who are "all business" and for whom everything they do economically is business, yet they have no separate business entity per se.

Which actually ought to take the whole discussion back to the historical context when the applicable scriptures were given. Very few at that time were employees. Most people worked for themselves, including many in agriculture. It was in that context that they were instructed to pay tithing on their surplus and annual "increase."

So with that in mind, let's take the discussion back to Father Abraham, who paid tithing to Melchezedek (who may have been The Lord). So what did Abraham pay tithing on? Let's say he had flocks of 2000 sheep, which had 3000 lambs, and 3000 goats, which had 5000 kids, and 1000 asses, which had 800 foals each year. Would he have paid 300 lambs, 500 kids, and 80 foals as tithing annually?

But what about the old sheep, goats and asses that died of old age? And what about those that were killed by predators? And what about those that he and his large household and many servants consumed, as that was a fundamental part of their diet? And what about animals that were sacrificed? Were they counted as tithing?

Was his ancient, middle eastern ranching operation a business?

How was his tithing correctly calculated?
Last edited by tmac on September 24th, 2017, 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ezra
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by Ezra »

If everyone was living as they should no debt no frivolous worldly junk. Then paying on the net surplus of ones earnings Is great.

But since people mostly are in debt don't accually own hardly anything but are in the process of paying. Mortgage payment car payment furniture and tv and appliances payments. Cable internet electricity to power all their junk. Plus they buy everything from the store to feed themselves. So Then after the payments there is nothing left. They live paycheck to paycheck. 5k a month job might barely support them.

They need all the blessings they can get so paying on the gross is a great idea.

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marc
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by marc »

tmac wrote: September 24th, 2017, 3:00 pm So with that in mind, let's take the discussion back to Father Abraham, who paid tithing to Melchezedek (who may have been The Lord). So what did Abraham pay tithing on?
JST Genesis 14:39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.
Abraham paid tithes on his surplus property.

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marc
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by marc »

D&C 119:4 is the fulcrum of the subject, but often ignored are the preceding verses. 
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.
Then the subsequent verse:
5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.
The Lord intended to redeem His people. A Zion people is required. Once a member consecrated his surplus property, this was only the beginning of the tithing of God's Zion people. We don't do that anymore. And we don't even understand "interest annually" either. 
Current LDS leaders say interest is typically interpreted as "income." But that's not what it has always meant.

"Bishop Partridge understood 'one tenth of all their interest' annually to mean 10 percent of what Saints would earn in interest if they invested their net worth for a year," Harper wrote. He cited an example from Partridge who was reportedly in the room when Smith received the revelation.

"If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and one/10. of the interest will be of course $6. thus you see the plan," Partridge wrote in a letter just days after the revelation was received.

According to Harper, six percent was a common interest rate at the time...http://kutv.com/news/local/new-historic ... ds-tithing
"A standing law unto them forever." 

The term forever is pretty clear to me. We covenant to obey the law of consecration in the temple, but we are not provided means to do so. In order to be a redeemed people, we must be a Zion people. This requires us to have NO poor among us. If we cannot make ourselves equal in temporal things, the Lord will not make us equal in heavenly things and so we must learn to care for the poor and that is what the tithing of the Lord's people is intended to do.
The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)
Covenant of Tithing

On the evening of the 29th of November, I united in prayer with Brother Oliver for the
continuance of blessings. After giving thanks for the relief which the Lord had lately sent us by opening the hearts of the brethren from the east, to loan us $430; after commencing and rejoicing before the Lord on this occasion, we agreed to enter into the following covenant with the Lord, viz:

That if the Lord will prosper us in our business and open the way before us that we may obtain means to pay our debts, that we be not troubled nor brought into disrepute before the world, nor His people; after that, of all that He shall give unto us, we will give a tenth to be bestowed upon the poor in His Church, or as He shall command; and that we will be faithful over that which he has entrusted to our care, that we may obtain much; and that our children after us shall remember to observe this sacred and holy covenant; and that our children, and our children’s children, may know of the same, we have subscribed our names with our own hands. (March 29, 1834.) DHC
2:174-175.

(Signed) 
JOSEPH SMITH, JUN.,
OLIVER COWDERY.
TotPJS page 70
Joseph Smith understood the purpose of tithing as did Abraham of old:
JST Genesis 14:36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace.

37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;

38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.

39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

40 And it came to pass, that God blessed Abram, and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession; according to the covenant which he had made, and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.
Abraham gave his surplus property as the beginning of his tithe, just as we read is God's standing law forever in D&C 119. And because Abraham did what God required (no more, no less, but precisely), God blessed Abraham with riches, honor, etc, which was God's covenant to him. When we learn to obey God the way God prescribes, He blesses us. But not if we improvise. It doesn't work that way. Cain thought he could do it with his offering, but God refused it because it was not the way God prescribed. It isn't about receiving gross blessings or net blessings. It's about elevating the poor by consecrating our property and making ourselves equal in temporal things so that God can make us equal in heavenly things. 

Some interesting quotes:
When the revelation which I have read was given in 1838, I was present, and recollect the feelings of the brethren. A number of revelations were given on the same day. The brethren wished me to go among the Churches, and find out what surplus property the people had, with which to forward the building of the Temple we were commencing at Far West. I accordingly went from place to place through the country. Before I started, I asked brother Joseph, “Who shall be the judge of what is surplus property?” Said he, “Let them be the judges themselves, for I care not if they do not give a single dime. So far as I am concerned, I do not want anything they have.” - Brigham Young (JD, 2:306)
I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop" Let us consider for a moment this word 'surplus.' What does it mean when applied to a man and his property? Surplus cannot mean that which is indispensably necessary for any given purpose, but what remains after supplying what is needed for that purpose. Is not the first and most necessary use of a man's property that he feed, clothe and provide a home for himself and family! . . . Was not 'surplus property,' that which was over and above a comfortable and necessary substance? In the light of what had transpired and of subsequent events, what else could it mean? Can we take any other view of it when we consider the circumstances under which it was given in far west, in July, 1838? I have been unable in studying this subject to find any other definition of the term 'surplus,' as used in this revelation, than the one I have just given. I find that it was so understood and recorded by the Bishops and people in those days, as well as by the prophet Joseph himself, who was unquestionably the ablest and best exponent of this revelation. - Franklin D. Richards, Nov. 6, 1882. JD 23:313.
Preston, Lancashire, England, September 2, 1837
My Dear Companion [Vilate Kimball],

....We have to live quite short but the brethren are very kind to us. They are willing to divide with us the last they have. They are quite ignorant; many of them cannot read a word and it needs great care to teach them the gospel so that they can understand. The people here are bound down under priestcraft in a manner I never saw before. They have to pay tithes to the priests of every tenth they raise, so that they cannot lay up one cent. They are in the same situation the children of Israel were in Egypt. They have their taskmasters over them to bind them down. It will be as great a miracle to deliver this people as it was the children of Israel.

There are a great many believing in Preston; we are baptizing almost every day.

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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by Spaced_Out »

CelestialAngel wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 9:24 pm What are your thoughts on tithing? I believe the Lord wants us to pay on gross not net.
It is 10% of your increase, in the western welfare countries where you pain in excess of 50% of your salary to tax paying 10% on gross leaves one less than 40% or remaining salary that is a heavy burden and with the price of housing -it is probably better to be unemployed and live on gov welfare. As there is a cost to working like having to keep a vehicle going etc,, and pay very expensive medical aid to balance the unemployed contribution. Yip time to stop working and live on welfare.


In the BoM 1/5 or 50% tax was considered to be slavery and grievous burden. We have well exceeded that level of taxes.
Mosiah 7:15
15 For behold, we are in bondage to the Lamanites, and are taxed with a tax which is grievous to be borne. And now, behold, our brethren will deliver us out of our bondage, or out of the hands of the Lamanites, and we will be their slaves; for it is better that we be slaves to the Nephites than to pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites

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tmac
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by tmac »

Marc, completely agree with everything you've said.

Now, here's the question: Who prescribed to Abraham what the Lord wanted from him, and how He wanted it?

And how was it prescribed to Cain, and by whom?

I think that is one of the primary issues in this whole discussion. For the most part, we're dealing with an apples/oranges comparison. Between the question of what God actually wants from each one of us individually and how He wants it, for most the answer is a whole lot of philosophies (and opinions) of men, mingled with scripture, with little understanding of what God may actually want for them individually.

And I completely agree -- if you do understand what God is asking (commanding) you to do, you best obey with precision.

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marc
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by marc »

I believe D&C 119 is crystal clear with "...a standing law forever..."
Furthermore, in the temple, we covenant to obey the law of consecration, but in nearly two hundred years, it has not yielded the redemption of Zion. Personally speaking, I know what God requires of me and has required of me personally so far in my life. It's good to hear from you again, tmac. Been a while.

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Arandur
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by Arandur »

We can direct our focus toward trying to figure out how it worked anciently, how various words and phrases are defined. We can use all that information and attempt to discover what it makes the most sense for the Lord to have meant when he re-instituted tithing in our day. We can discuss and debate which church leaders were speaking under the influence of the Holy Ghost at which times, whether they've thought out all the information that we have (or whether they even need to), and why they are or are not misinformed about all those ancient commandments and scriptural words and phrases. And we can talk about taxes, whether that money was ever actually ours to begin with, whether taxation is just theft and whether we're obligated to tithe what is taxed and/or stolen from us. We can get into the details of how all that might apply to a plethora of unique situations that illustrate how any given interpretation could go horribly wrong.

Or we can be humble, let the Lord direct us, and obey (even and especially if His direction goes against our reasoning and understanding on the matter). God blesses those who obey; blessings aren't earned via the amount/percentage paid or whether we end up paying on gross, net, increase, post-expense income, or whatever else.

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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by Crackers »

shadow wrote: September 24th, 2017, 9:36 am Businesses aren't supposed to pay tithing.
Agreed. Having recently switched from being an employee to a business owner, we have decided to simply write ourselves a paycheck periodically (i.e., move money from the business account to the personal account), and pay tithing on that. Pretty much the same concept as paying on an employee paycheck, I think.

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LDS Physician
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Re: I think everyone should pay tithing on gross and not net

Post by LDS Physician »

Here's a quote from the handbook regarding tithing:

"The First Presidency has written: 'The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this' (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970; see also D&C 119:4)."

This leaves the member to define what their "income" is. Is it what they see after taxes or is it what they see prior to taxes? That is completely up to the member.

At tithing settlement (I'm a bishop) a person declares their self a "full" "part" or "not a" tithe payer. If they consider themselves a full tithe payer when they've been paying on their net income, then that's just fine with me! In fact, I can't argue with that at all, according to my stake president.

I love that it says "no one is justified in making any other statement than this" ... meaning none of us, including myself as a bishop, has anything else to say in the matter in regards to whether tithing is net or gross. It's truly between the tithe payer and the Lord.

The only thing I have been able to find in my research of net vs. gross tithing comments in general conference is a story of a farmer who took in his harvest, sold it on the market, paid his debt to the seed store, paid his employed ranch-hands, made payments on his leased equipment, and THEN he paid a tithe on the remainder. Sounds pretty net to me, but again...it was just a story told in general conference a long time ago.

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