I put Mike Norton's name on the temple prayer roll today

[Elizabeth]

[AI2.0]

Guys, the problem isn't that Mike's identity isn't known to the church. His personal info is all over the internet. They know exactly who he is.

The problem is that temple security isn't really set up to keep people out. They aren't going to post mugshots of people known to use fake recommends, like a bodega banning check bouncers.

The church doesn't really care about keeping people out that badly, and it doesn't care about keeping its sacred rites secret. That's why you've been able to access all temple content on the Internet pretty much since its inception. As long as he doesn't cause a scene while he's there, it's not really worth the effort to try and keep him out.

The church knows how to keep a secret when it wants to. That's why nobody knows about its finances. And I can guarantee someone like Mike Norton isn't getting access to Vault F.

By the way, the bar codes on temple recommends weren't intended as a security measure. While they do make them harder to fake (and allow deactivation) the main purpose is to track attendance.

What do you mean by 'track attendance' and how do you know this is true, or are you just speculating that this is the purpose?

[jsk]

Maybe I'll call and put Kim Jong Un's name on my local Temple's prayer roll.

With everything going on in the world, why worry about a traitor to the Lord's Kingdom?

[Elizabeth]

:-\ :-\ :-\

Well bless your heart. I appreciate the kind geture. Coincidentally I received a pay raise today which allowed me to purchase a new pinhole camera I've had my eye on for a while.

If you really want to help, please call me and let's discuss the doctrinal and historicity concerns that caused me to leave the LDS Church in the first place.

(801) 971-8661

Sincerely,
Mike Norton

[brlenox]

Well bless your heart. I appreciate the kind geture. Coincidentally I received a pay raise today which allowed me to purchase a new pinhole camera I've had my eye on for a while.

If you really want to help, please call me and let's discuss the doctrinal and historicity concerns that caused me to leave the LDS Church in the first place.

(801) 971-8661

Sincerely,
Mike Norton

Well, now we know that someone on LDSFF knows Mr. Norton well enough to call him and invite him to the thread. Nonetheless, If you are able to present your material with reasonable decorum I would be interested in what things moved you to give up the charge against the Iraq War and begin an entirely new visible campaign against the LDS church.

[inho]

Guys, the problem isn't that Mike's identity isn't known to the church. His personal info is all over the internet. They know exactly who he is.

The problem is that temple security isn't really set up to keep people out. They aren't going to post mugshots of people known to use fake recommends, like a bodega banning check bouncers.

The church doesn't really care about keeping people out that badly, and it doesn't care about keeping its sacred rites secret. That's why you've been able to access all temple content on the Internet pretty much since its inception. As long as he doesn't cause a scene while he's there, it's not really worth the effort to try and keep him out.

The church knows how to keep a secret when it wants to. That's why nobody knows about its finances. And I can guarantee someone like Mike Norton isn't getting access to Vault F.

By the way, the bar codes on temple recommends weren't intended as a security measure. While they do make them harder to fake (and allow deactivation) the main purpose is to track attendance.

What do you mean by 'track attendance' and how do you know this is true, or are you just speculating that this is the purpose?

If have no insider information, but it is clear that bar codes are an easy way to count how many people visit the temple. They also allow to see how many come from a certain ward or stake. The Ward Quarterly Report includes a number of endowed members with a current recommend, this is calculated automatically by the system.

[NewNameNoah]

Well bless your heart. I appreciate the kind geture. Coincidentally I received a pay raise today which allowed me to purchase a new pinhole camera I've had my eye on for a while.

If you really want to help, please call me and let's discuss the doctrinal and historicity concerns that caused me to leave the LDS Church in the first place.

(801) 971-8661

Sincerely,
Mike Norton

Well, now we know that someone on LDSFF knows Mr. Norton well enough to call him and invite him to the thread. Nonetheless, If you are able to present your material with reasonable decorum I would be interested in what things moved you to give up the charge against the Iraq War and begin an entirely new visible campaign against the LDS church.

I left the church in 2002 and have been passionate about helping people see the truth from day one. In 2004 after Bush won reelection I put a sign up in my yard that listed the number of Americans killed in Iraq as well as a small photo of each one of them. I felt we shouldn't be losing thousands of lives in Iraq while Osama bin Laden was out there somewhere planning his next attack. I took the sign down about two years later when a SLTribune article said a majority of Utahn's were now opposed to the war in Iraq. My sign was put up to educate people about the true cost of the war in Iraq; American lives and an untold number of innocent Iraqi civilians.

[NewNameNoah]

The whole world cannot be individually on the prayer list, and there are many more worthy who could be. It is despicable what he has done and is probably still doing.

Oh I'm definitely still doing it.

[NewNameNoah]

I think it would be rad if someone autoput his name on all the rolls in all the temples so that way, when he sneaks into the temple, if he goes in the prayer circle, he ends up praying for himself...

I put my name on the prayer roll all the time just as a joke. I don't believe that God gives extra special attention to people if their names are written down and placed in a bag on an altar while Mormons encircle the altar and pray for everyone who's name is in the bag.

[Elizabeth]

Have you considered what it will be like to rot in hell?

The whole world cannot be individually on the prayer list, and there are many more worthy who could be. It is despicable what he has done and is probably still doing.

Oh I'm definitely still doing it.

[brlenox]

Well bless your heart. I appreciate the kind geture. Coincidentally I received a pay raise today which allowed me to purchase a new pinhole camera I've had my eye on for a while.

If you really want to help, please call me and let's discuss the doctrinal and historicity concerns that caused me to leave the LDS Church in the first place.

(801) 971-8661

Sincerely,
Mike Norton

Well, now we know that someone on LDSFF knows Mr. Norton well enough to call him and invite him to the thread. Nonetheless, If you are able to present your material with reasonable decorum I would be interested in what things moved you to give up the charge against the Iraq War and begin an entirely new visible campaign against the LDS church.

I left the church in 2002 and have been passionate about helping people see the truth from day one. In 2004 after Bush won reelection I put a sign up in my yard that listed the number of Americans killed in Iraq as well as a small photo of each one of them. I felt we shouldn't be losing thousands of lives in Iraq while Osama bin Laden was out there somewhere planning his next attack. I took the sign down about two years later when a SLTribune article said a majority of Utahn's were now opposed to the war in Iraq. My sign was put up to educate people about the true cost of the war in Iraq; American lives and an untold number of innocent Iraqi civilians.

Oh, I quite well remember the sign as I still live in the neighborhood. Nonetheless, your reply did not really explain how you went from protesting a war in Iraq to instigating a war with the LDS church. Of course, I'm sure it is as you state and you started that war in 2002 and the Iraq war simply became more visible during that episode of your life. However, upon what points did you leave the church? You indicate there was some degree of specificity in the doctrines that dissuaded you. I'm not so interested in the historicity as that material just doesn't have the appeal to me that doctrine does. Nonetheless, the invitation stands that if you are so inclined please share.

[Elizabeth]

NewNameNoah, Are you also posting on this forum with another account name or names, and have you also had other accounts on this forum which are now inactive?

[captainfearnot]

Have you considered what it will be like to rot in hell?

I don't understand why people think this is a provocative line of reasoning. Obviously, Mike doesn't believe that he will be going to hell for what he is doing, most likely because he doesn't believe in hell at all.

It's like when Baptists warn me that I'm going to hell because I'm Mormon. Does that give me the slightest pause? Of course not.

[captainfearnot]

What do you mean by 'track attendance' and how do you know this is true, or are you just speculating that this is the purpose?

What inho said. Macro tracking in order to optimize temple districts and such based on usage. I forget where I read about this, probably the ldstech message boards where all the clerks hang out.

Now this is purely speculation on my part, but it would not surprise me if they do look up individual temple attendance statistics on occasion when extending callings and such. I know first hand that they track tithing on an individual basis even though they deny it, so I have to think that they avail themselves of whatever information they have at hand, for whatever purpose they deem expedient.

[Elizabeth]

This is as polite a way possible of saying what I really wanted to.

Have you considered what it will be like to rot in hell?

I don't understand why people think this is a provocative line of reasoning. Obviously, Mike doesn't believe that he will be going to hell for what he is doing, most likely because he doesn't believe in hell at all.

It's like when Baptists warn me that I'm going to hell because I'm Mormon. Does that give me the slightest pause? Of course not.

[AI2.0]

What do you mean by 'track attendance' and how do you know this is true, or are you just speculating that this is the purpose?

What inho said. Macro tracking in order to optimize temple districts and such based on usage. I forget where I read about this, probably the ldstech message boards where all the clerks hang out.

Now this is purely speculation on my part, but it would not surprise me if they do look up individual temple attendance statistics on occasion when extending callings and such. I know first hand that they track tithing on an individual basis even though they deny it, so I have to think that they avail themselves of whatever information they have at hand, for whatever purpose they deem expedient.

So, this thread was messed up. My comment is the one attributed to captainfearnot and his response is wrongfully attributed to me.

YOu said this:

What inho said. Macro tracking in order to optimize temple districts and such based on usage. I forget where I read about this, probably the ldstech message boards where all the clerks hang out.

Now this is purely speculation on my part, but it would not surprise me if they do look up individual temple attendance statistics on occasion when extending callings and such. I know first hand that they track tithing on an individual basis even though they deny it, so I have to think that they avail themselves of whatever information they have at hand, for whatever purpose they deem expedient.

I asked this because I was told by leadership that they do not get individual temple attendance reports. So, that's a denial of what you are claiming. And you are wrong that they 'deny' tracking tithing on an individual basis--what are you talking about, of course they do. Have you been to tithing settlement? They give you a statement showing how much tithing you paid.

[captainfearnot]

Yikes, sorry about that, let me fix mine.

[captainfearnot]

I asked this because I was told by leadership that they do not get individual temple attendance reports. So, that's a denial of what you are claiming. And you are wrong that they 'deny' tracking tithing on an individual basis--what are you talking about, of course they do. Have you been to tithing settlement? They give you a statement showing how much tithing you paid.

Well obviously your ward tracks your individual tithing, I was referring to the situation discussed around here before where like a random stake HC or something isn't supposed to be able to look up any member and see if they are paid up year to date or something. It's supposed to be something between you and your bishop at tithing settlement (and obviously the various clerks that process everything), at least that's what I'm told, but really that information is more accessible than they let on. But maybe it's common knowledge that any HC can walk into the stake clerk's office and ask how much tithing so-and-so in x ward has paid this year and find out, and I was just led to believe they keep it more confidential than that.

That experience leads to my speculation that temple attendance data might be used for more than we are led to believe, but I don't have any evidence in support of that.

[captainfearnot]

This is as polite a way possible of saying what I really wanted to.

Well, I appreciate your acknowledgement that your aversion to people praying for Mike is an emotional reaction and not based on any kind of reasoned position.

[AI2.0]

NewNameNoah, Are you also posting on this forum with another account name or names, and have you also had other accounts on this forum which are now inactive?

He had at least one that I know of--he was Nortinski and posted only a couple of times a couple of years ago.

[Rose Garden]

I think it would be rad if someone autoput his name on all the rolls in all the temples so that way, when he sneaks into the temple, if he goes in the prayer circle, he ends up praying for himself...

I'm sure people end up praying for themselves quite a bit that way since if their name is going to be submitted to the temple, it's most likely to be the most local one to them.

[Elizabeth]

NewNameNoah, How is it that you can enter the Temple ?

The whole world cannot be individually on the prayer list, and there are many more worthy who could be. It is despicable what he has done and is probably still doing.

Oh I'm definitely still doing it.

[lemuel]

NewNameNoah, How is it that you can enter the Temple ?

The whole world cannot be individually on the prayer list, and there are many more worthy who could be. It is despicable what he has done and is probably still doing.

Oh I'm definitely still doing it.

He borrows other people's recommends, from those who have quit but still have a valid recommend. Can't really say who he's harming though. Wife beaters and adulterers are certainly greater sinners. Pharisees are too.

[Elizabeth]

1 Nephi 15:34
But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.

[LukeAir2008]

One of the many things revealed in the Dead Sea Scrolls is the account of a man who woke up one morning in a panic and said: 'I am damned, I have revealed the key words and the new name'.

So save your prayers for someone who needs them. Mike Norton has openly mocked God and cannot repent. God will eventually deal with him.