Who is the witness?

[Jesef]

So, if you are correct, would not that "witness"/servant end up looking something like a Denver Snuffer, some guy who claims he has seen God and talked to him face to face, and has a message and covenant pertaining to building Zion, etc.? If not, how do you recognize this guy? What identifies him as legit & not false pretender?

[Rensai]

So, if you are correct, would not that "witness"/servant end up looking something like a Denver Snuffer, some guy who claims he has seen God and talked to him face to face, and has a message and covenant pertaining to building Zion, etc.? If not, how do you recognize this guy? What identifies him as legit & not false pretender?

God will use his power to establish his last days prophet, like prophets of old, he will prophecy of things to come shortly that can be tested; he will perform miracles. Whatever it is, between that and the holy ghost it will be enough for those who are prepared to recognize him. What he will assuredly not do, is sell the mysteries the holy ghost has taught him for money as Denver has done.

[BeNotDeceived]

Section Six 1843-44, p.365

The scripture is ready to be fulfilled when great wars, famines, pestilence, great distress, judgments, &c., are ready to be poured out on the inhabitants of the earth. ...

Aha, tropical storms aren't listed because we are commanded to subdue the Earth in Genesis 1:28

Now we weep as we reap the consequences, currently in the guise of Henry and Irma, with more on the way. :ymsick:

[Alaris]

Section Six 1843-44, p.365

Has the Gospel of the kingdom commenced in the last days? And will God take it from the man until He takes him Himself? I have read it precisely as the words flowed from the lips of Jesus Christ. John the Revelator saw an angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth.

I'm sure many of us LDS have heard that this angel was Moroni. I do not necessarily believe that is the case. I say necessarily because I believe MMP doesn't rule out Moroni, as I do believe this scripture is referring to the end times servant. May I ask why you call Elias the Josephite? Is that because he is of Ephraim and Judah?

Section Six 1843-44, p.365

The scripture is ready to be fulfilled when great wars, famines, pestilence, great distress, judgments, &c., are ready to be poured out on the inhabitants of the earth. John saw the angel having the holy Priesthood, who should preach the everlasting Gospel to all nations. God had an angel--a special messenger--ordained and prepared for that purpose in the last days. Woe, woe be to that man or set of men who lift up their hands against God and His witness in these last days: for they shall deceive almost the very chosen ones!

I like how Joseph Smith translates angel back into English - this reaffirms my belief this messenger is alive and not an angel from beyond the veil. Denver Snuffer may be who is deceiving the elect here.

Eternal Judgment

Section Six 1843-44, p.365

My enemies say that I have been a true prophet. Why, I had rather be a fallen true prophet than a false prophet. When a man goes about prophesying, and commands men to obey his teachings, he must either be a true or false prophet. False prophets always arise to oppose the true prophets and they will prophesy so very near the truth that they will deceive almost the very chosen ones.

That's interesting that Joseph Smith almost refers to himself as a fallen prophet here - especially given that you and I both believe he was supposed to fail to bring ZION.

Section Six 1843-44, p.366

I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. I once offered my life to the Missouri mob as a sacrifice for my people, and here I am. It will not be by sword or gun that this kingdom will roll on: the power of truth is such that all nations will be under the necessity of obeying the Gospel. The prediction is that army will be against army: it may be that the Saints will have to beat their ploughs into swords, for it will not do for men to sit down patiently and see their children destroyed.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T6.html


Very interesting! Thank you for sharing LDS Anarchist. Sounds to me clearly that Joseph Smith is speaking of someone else, especially when considering how he calculates himself to be the foundational instrument.

[Jesef]

So, if you are correct, would not that "witness"/servant end up looking something like a Denver Snuffer, some guy who claims he has seen God and talked to him face to face, and has a message and covenant pertaining to building Zion, etc.? If not, how do you recognize this guy? What identifies him as legit & not false pretender?

If who is correct? Who are you talking to?

I thought that was obvious since I commented right after your OP, yes, that would be to you, LDS Anarchist.

[Alaris]

May I ask why you call Elias the Josephite? Is that because he is of Ephraim and Judah?

His surname will be Joseph-Nephi. Thus, he will be a Josephite. That is, he will be a descendant of Joseph, the son of Lehi. And thus, he will also be a Nephite. (Joseph-Nephi is the surname all Josephites bore.)

The Nephites were of mixed heritage. There were of Manasseh, through Lehi, and of Ephraim, through Ishmael, and of Judah, through Mulek. And Mulek was a son of Zedekiah, king of Judah, therefore Mr. Joseph-Nephi will have these three lineages in his blood, and his Judah blood will trace directly to Jesse, the father of David, through Zedekiah and Mulek. This is why Isaiah calls him the Rod of Jesse and the Root of Jesse.

So, Elias will be a Nephite, but he won't be a pure Nephite (surname: Nephi), nor a Jacobite (surname: Jacob-Nephi), nor a Zoramite (surname: Zoram-Nephi), but a Josephite.

The Nephites were extra special and Elias is extra special. What do you think Lehi was so happy about in chapter one of 1 Nephi?

And it came to pass that when my father had read and seen many great and marvelous things, he did exclaim many things unto the Lord; such as: Great and marvelous are thy works, O Lord God Almighty! Thy throne is high in the heavens, and thy power, and goodness, and mercy are over all the inhabitants of the earth; and, because thou art merciful, thou wilt not suffer those who come unto thee that they shall perish! And after this manner was the language of my father in the praising of his God; for his soul did rejoice, and his whole heart was filled, because of the things which he had seen, yea, which the Lord had shown unto him. (1 Nephi 1:14-15)

He had just seen the ministry of Elias and that Elias would be of his seed. Lehi was ecstatic.

"Joseph Nephi" was the name of my great grandfather - but not his surname. What is your source of information on the surname? D&C mentions Ephraim and Judah for the Rod and Joseph and Judah for the Root. I believe these are two separate men:

D&C 113: 3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?
4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.
5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

Technically speaking, they could be the same person, but the language indicates to me they are two people. Also, Manasseh is not mentioned in D&C 113 or in Ezekiel 37 when referencing the two sticks.

[jim]

Here's the stuff from Words of Joseph Smith that I found might be relevant, some emphasis added.

The ones from the first discourse makes it almost sound like Joseph Smith.

The references in the talk from the second url make it sound like the Holy Ghost.

I won't pretend to know, but I hope you'll find these references helpful.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/words-jose ... 2-may-1844

The Thomas Bullock report

I have the greatest right—the Germans are an exalted people. the old German translators are the most correct; most honest of any of the translators, and therefore I get testimony to bear me out in the revelations that I have preached for the last 14 years—the old German, Latin, Greek and Hebrew translations all say it is true, they cannot be impeached, and therefore I am in good company—all the testimony is, that the Lord in the last days would commit the keys of the Priesthood to a witness over all people—has the Gospel of the Kingdom commenced in the last days? and will God take it from the man, until he takes him, himself? [8] I have read it precisely as the words flowed from the lips of Jesus Christ—John the Revelator saw an angel flying thro' the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, &c. [9] the Scripture is ready to be fulfilled when great wars, famines, pestilence, great distress, judgements, &c are ready to be poured out on the Inhabitants of the Earth—John saw the angel having the holy Priesthood who should preach the everlasting gospel to all nations,—God had an angel, a special messenger, ordained, & prepared for that purpose in the last days—Woe! Woe! be to that man, or set of men, who lift up their hands against God and his Witness in these last days. [10]—for they shall deceive almost the very chosen ones—my apostate enemies say that I have been a true prophet—& I had rather be a fallen true prophet, than a false prophet; when a man goes about prophesying and commands men to obey his teachings, he must be either a true or false prophet; false prophets always arise to oppose the true prophets, and they will prophesy so very near the truth that they will deceive almost the very chosen ones—the doctrine of eternal judgments belong to the 1st. principles of the Gospel in the last days

George Laub Journal

Concerning Gods Witness

24th chapter of Revelations of John Mathew, Mathew 6 & 7 14 verses, & the orriginal translation Reads thus and I will Send you a nother witness & he shall preach this gospel to all nations to the ends of the world But woe to that man or woman who Shall lift up their or his hands against god's witness for the[y] are rasing their hands or arms against the power of god and the[y] will be cursed. But in these times in the last days there will many fals prophets arise and false teachers and decieve many the[y] Shall have many followers by their deceit. [49] the[y] Strive to have power and by their pernitious ways lead of[f] many—for Brother Joseph Smith was chosen for the last dispensation or Seventh Dispensation The time the grand council Set in heaven to organise this world Joseph was chosen for the last & greatest Prophet to lay the foundation of gods work of the Seventh Dispensation therefore the Jews asked John the Baptist if he was Elias or Jesus or that great prophet that was to come.

[50]

Samuel W. Richards Record

The Prophet Joseph said May 12th 1844 After reading the 24th Chap of Math [65] from from an Ancient German Bible Text: "The Kingdom must preached be to a witness over all Nation People." "preached to a man who should be a witness to all people, is the meaning of the text." quoted Rev. 14-6 having the Gospel saying the hour of his Judgment is come.

At the general & grand Council of heaven, all those to whom a dispensation was to be commited, were set apart & ordained at that time, to that calling.

The Twelve also as witnesses were ordained.


https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/words-jose ... march-1841

9 March 1841 (Tuesday). [1]

McIntire Minute Book

Subject 1st on the Gospel By father Cole [2] he Said that Some thought that He Difered from president Smith Concerning the time of the Giving of the Holy Ghost—as teach that all men receive the Holy Ghost before Baptizem [3]—Joseph said we Do not take Notice of things as they Read them—or they might know things as they Read them—he quotes rather 2d Repent & be Baptized &c—& ye Shall Receive the Gift of the Holly Ghost—Now said he (taking up his Cap & presenting to Prd Law) [4] in Giveing you this Gift is not giving myself. However there is a prist-Hood with the Holy Ghost & Key—the Holy Ghost over shadows you & witness unto you of the authority & the Gifts of the Holly Ghost—he said was the provence of the Father to preside as the Chief or President—Jesus as the Mediator & Holy Ghost as the testator or witness [5]—the Son Had a Tabernicle & so had the father [6] But the Holly Ghost is a personage of spirit without tabernicle the Great God has a name By wich He will be Called which is Ahman [7]—also in asking have Referance to a personage Like Adam for God made Adam Just in his own Image Now this a key for you to know how to ask & obtain. [8]

William Clayton Private Book

By Joseph.

Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth. These personages according to Abraham's record [12] are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the Witness or Testator. [13]

Here's a trick with Google,
it you enter the following into Google, you can see all of the entries in Writings of Joseph Smith for witness:

Code: Select all

witness site:rsc.byu.edu/archived/words-joseph-smith-contemporary-accounts-nauvoo-discourses-prophet-joseph

[Jesef]

LDS Anarchist, do you have any insight, from your gift, as to when this prophet will arise? Are we close or decades/centuries away? What do you make of all these heavenly/astrological signs (from Revelations) that the Remnant and others keep touting as the time of tribulation and the end is imminent? Thanks.

[Jesef]

Please tell us you don't think/believe you are this prophet (Elias). Is he the one referred to as "a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me" (Isaiah 49:2) in reference to his being unknown until he comes forth?

[brlenox]

Section Six 1843-44, p.365

Has the Gospel of the kingdom commenced in the last days? And will God take it from the man until He takes him Himself? I have read it precisely as the words flowed from the lips of Jesus Christ. John the Revelator saw an angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth.

I'm sure many of us LDS have heard that this angel was Moroni. I do not necessarily believe that is the case. I say necessarily because I believe MMP doesn't rule out Moroni, as I do believe this scripture is referring to the end times servant. May I ask why you call Elias the Josephite? Is that because he is of Ephraim and Judah?

The Son of God will do as he ever has done from the beginning. Send forth his Angels. If the reapers do not come, the wheat cannot be Saved. Nothing but Kingdom being restored, can save the world. Like unto a treasure hid in a field. This figure is a representation of the [kingdom] in the last days. 6 Michael= = Adam. Noah. I am Gabriel — Well says I. Who are you? I am Peter, the angel flying through the midst of heaven Moroni delivered the Book of
Mormon. (Words of Joseph Smith, pg 14)

Joseph taught on separate occasions that the angel flying in the midst of heaven was Moroni, however when it came to the keys by which the gospel was taken to the ends of the world he always referred to Peter as the angel flying in the midst of heaven as Peter restored the Melchizedek priesthood which held the keys for missionary work.

[Jonesy]

I also have the gift of knowing the diversities of operations and I am sure that the election and eventual inauguration of Donald Trump, in which he did all that "winning" and his opposition kept losing, was a bona fide operation of the Lord, blessing Trump and confounding his enemies. I suppose that this operation was put into play by the Josephite's prayers, and not by anyone else's prayers, nor by all the combined prayers of everyone else. So, this means that the guy's faith has certainly increased. But he's still in his box.

I'm really curious as to why you say this. Why would the Josephite want Trump to win? It seems like just about everyone in politics are part of the establishment.

Do you believe that Trump is like a modern day Cyrus, like I've heard others think he is?

https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/60 ... -isaiah-45

[Alaris]

Im glad u mentioning the importance of certain, well laid out in scriptures criteria that one needs to fulfil in order to be even considered DS. Thats one of the reason why I dont understand why so many believe him to be USA citizen, where clearly he is called from land afar, from East, yet from North. Now, can he be US citizen that moved out somwhere to say North Russia, or serving LDS mission in North China(just making things up here lol)- answer is yes. Therefore, all you folks thinking its you, you better start packing your bags, cause time is near at hand( I believe it to be 7 years tops, and believe you LDSA mentioned ~15...time will tell)
PS. A member of this forum made a different yet plausible case for DS being US citizen(in a PM , therefore Ill keep it private, but just wanted to make mention of that, give him props and so he knows I do not make light of his knowledge )

My understanding and teaching is that this guy is an American (USA.) The "east" may be just from the east coast. I was talking to a Christian man several months ago about "the third Elijah" and I mentioned to him that the "angel ascending from the east" was the guy, and I said that my understanding was that the guy was an American, and this man immediately came to the conclusion that he must be from the east coast of the country. And that was my initial thinking, too. Also, what continent are we on? North America. So, wouldn't that qualify him as being "from the north?" Also, the rod comes from Zion:

The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. (Psalms 110:2)

So, all indications are that this man will be from America.

Ok it sounds plausible, however-DS will be called to Gods footstool to build New Jerusalem(~Missouri) from the land afar.East coast doesnt qualify since its same land. As a matter of fact, I would argue he cant be stationed anywhere on the entire continent, when He is called by God, since its all the same land. Now with regards to rod being called from Zion.Where is Zion?-to quote one of the Prophets-'its where the saints are.Therefore, He will be The Church member(of Zion). Now, I do admit I might be wrong, however, I cant see ur arguments being stronger tgan mine in this particular instance.The Lord,the wisest of all, has hidden him in the shadow of his hand - so I guess it was never going to be easy to locate him

Here is that scripture dafty:

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow.

IIT

2 Who has raised up Righteousness from the east,
calling him to the place of his foot?
Who has delivered nations to him,
toppled their rulers,
rendering them as dust to his sword,
as driven stubble to his bow?

I've mentioned elsewhere that "East" could be a direction to the Lord different than to us - such as Eastward in Eden. Eden is in the USA, so the good old USA could be East by that understanding.

Also, being called to "his foot" or "the place of his foot" seems to make more sense to be Jerusalem for several reasons:

Jerusalem is lesser to New Jerusalem, so if they are compared to body parts then the foot may be the lesser:

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... mbols.html

Moreover, Jacob may mean "heel" and is certainly related to that Hebrew word:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob

So being called to the place of his foot, may have Jacobic meaning - and if so where is the place of Jacob?



If I have time today, I'll create the new thread to which I keep referring that may require a tin foil hat. This would also help explain the directions.

[Alaris]

Haha! I now know where east and north are! Lol! It just dawned on me as I looked at all these threads and scriptures.

(Sorry, I ain't telling. Continue on with the endless speculation, though.)

Way to use that gift LDSA.

[dafty]

Haha! I now know where east and north are! Lol! It just dawned on me as I looked at all these threads and scriptures.

(Sorry, I ain't telling. Continue on with the endless speculation, though.)

lol

...somebody is not getting enough attentio? lol I have to give u that u r good-u managed to proper deceive me, as I would never imagine u could b so childish.

[Alaris]

So, if you are correct, would not that "witness"/servant end up looking something like a Denver Snuffer, some guy who claims he has seen God and talked to him face to face, and has a message and covenant pertaining to building Zion, etc.? If not, how do you recognize this guy? What identifies him as legit & not false pretender?

Our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ, will perform some of His mightiest works between now and when He comes again. We will see miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory. But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost. ~ Russell M. Nelson