People claiming to have seen Christ

[h_p]

About 17 years ago I was attending an institute class where at the end of class the teacher bore his brief witness that D&C 93 :1 was a fulfilled reality for him. He encouraged us to like wise receive. My older brother by 10 years, immediately after this class--- I had the opportunity to speak with him about what just occurred. With a voice of frustration and anger he said " what makes you think I want that experience?" "what if I just want to be a good scout leader"

I think the vast majority of people are like your brother, but at least he was honest enough to admit it. I would even go so far as to say that of those who claim to want the experience of D&C 93:1 don't really want it, based on their actions. I consider myself in that camp, though I'm still fighting with myself over it. I have hope that the good side of me will prevail eventually.

God isn't going to force anyone into heaven, but is still gracious enough to give us however much we're willing to accept. I don't think we should condemn anyone for feeling this way (and I'm not implying you are), because these people will also be happy in the eternities. They will have received exactly what they truly wanted.

[AI2.0]

About 17 years ago I was attending an institute class where at the end of class the teacher bore his brief witness that D&C 93 :1 was a fulfilled reality for him. He encouraged us to like wise receive. My older brother by 10 years, immediately after this class--- I had the opportunity to speak with him about what just occurred. With a voice of frustration and anger he said " what makes you think I want that experience?" "what if I just want to be a good scout leader"

My experience is that for those who are not feasting upon the words of God and as a result don't see the obvious truths of obtaining "the greater portion of God's word"--- the narrative in church that feeds the path my brother desires more often than not is the result...

Around this time of reinforcement of living for the reality of 93:1 occurring for me-- I experienced a revealing dream. In my dream I heard a knock at my front door. As opened it standing before me was a man in a white robe with longer hair on his head. Everything was clear to me except his face. I could not see his face-- it was more blurry. I knew in my dream that this was the Savior. Immediately I felt to report to him the things I was doing in my priesthood leadership calling. To my surprise he walked past me as I was giving my report and entered into the room of my two little kids. He leaned down and picked up my baby boy, and held him in his arms. In my dream I remember feeling a little chagrined by all this. I woke up and the message was not lost on me...

My Brothers and sisters / fellow ldsff folk, to receive anything less than " all that the Father hath" is to be "accursed"
This message / narrative is clear in holy writ. So many truths of the church we retain as we move forward on the path of rebirth , receiving ones calling election, and receiving one's second comforter. As we are yoked to Christ the only keeper of the gate--- essential truths are laid hold upon and non-essential truths are let go of. Who are we yoked to?

The parable of the talents, the parable of the workers; we are not all the same and yet, we will all receive the same reward. And we are told to leave judgment to the Lord.
Your brother was at least honest in that he understood what it would entail to be worthy of such a blessing. At that time in his life, it was beyond him. That doesn't mean we should judge him to be not living up to his potential, since we don't know what that potential is. Only God knows what he's capable of. Maybe being a good scout leader was what God desired of him--heaven knows there are many who dread that calling and/or won't put the time in and yet, it is an opportunity to serve and help boys who need that attention.

My point is, don't think your brother was 'accursed' because he didn't aspire to the same things you do. If we are faithful and true to the mission that God has given us, then we each will receive 'all that the Father hath'--He's not grading us by earthly standards.

[diligently seeking]

About 17 years ago I was attending an institute class where at the end of class the teacher bore his brief witness that D&C 93 :1 was a fulfilled reality for him. He encouraged us to like wise receive. My older brother by 10 years, immediately after this class--- I had the opportunity to speak with him about what just occurred. With a voice of frustration and anger he said " what makes you think I want that experience?" "what if I just want to be a good scout leader"

My experience is that for those who are not feasting upon the words of God and as a result don't see the obvious truths of obtaining "the greater portion of God's word"--- the narrative in church that feeds the path my brother desires more often than not is the result...

Around this time of reinforcement of living for the reality of 93:1 occurring for me-- I experienced a revealing dream. In my dream I heard a knock at my front door. As opened it standing before me was a man in a white robe with longer hair on his head. Everything was clear to me except his face. I could not see his face-- it was more blurry. I knew in my dream that this was the Savior. Immediately I felt to report to him the things I was doing in my priesthood leadership calling. To my surprise he walked past me as I was giving my report and entered into the room of my two little kids. He leaned down and picked up my baby boy, and held him in his arms. In my dream I remember feeling a little chagrined by all this. I woke up and the message was not lost on me...

My Brothers and sisters / fellow ldsff folk, to receive anything less than " all that the Father hath" is to be "accursed"
This message / narrative is clear in holy writ. So many truths of the church we retain as we move forward on the path of rebirth , receiving ones calling election, and receiving one's second comforter. As we are yoked to Christ the only keeper of the gate--- essential truths are laid hold upon and non-essential truths are let go of. Who are we yoked to?

The parable of the talents, the parable of the workers; we are not all the same and yet, we will all receive the same reward. And we are told to leave judgment to the Lord.
Your brother was at least honest in that he understood what it would entail to be worthy of such a blessing. At that time in his life, it was beyond him. That doesn't mean we should judge him to be not living up to his potential, since we don't know what that potential is. Only God knows what he's capable of. Maybe being a good scout leader was what God desired of him--heaven knows there are many who dread that calling and/or won't put the time in and yet, it is an opportunity to serve and help boys who need that attention.

My point is, don't think your brother was 'accursed' because he didn't aspire to the same things you do. If we are faithful and true to the mission that God has given us, then we each will receive 'all that the Father hath'--He's not grading us by earthly standards.

I am saying that when holy writ. / hungering and thirsting after the message of righteousnes in their pages and hearing the Lord's voice etc is not sought for (D&C93:1)---- being lulled away thinking all is well.... so easily results...

[AI2.0]

...while having faith that if it is gods will to grant them otherwise then so be it? Genuinely interested in thoughts here. Do you feel doing this is against what is in scripture or what the lord would ask of us?

If you're addressing me, my reply is that throughout scripture it has been, it is, it will always be Jesus Christ's will to grant to you as much as you desire. And if you do not desire any of it, He will not force the matter. He will cheerfully not grant any wish you do not desire. But He does want you to desire all the gifts, which He has laid up for you.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Matthew 7:7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

D&C 103:31 Behold this is my will; ask and ye shall receive; but men do not always do my will.

But some may say that since it's not a commandment and how few are willing to to receive, Jesus will not give to an unwilling person. Why would He?

The reason I continue to share the things I do and patiently try to explain things in many different ways is because I know there are people who desire these things, but are not sure how it all works. I have spent thirty years digging and searching for and organizing all the relevant information so that I could understand what the Lord taught me those many years ago and so that I could make sense of it and try to condense it into easily digestible information. I do this for those few peaceable followers and humble seekers of Jesus Christ. They are lurking and reading our posts.

But to reiterate again what has been misunderstood, I have not said that we must see Jesus Christ's face in order to be saved. I believe that those who misunderstand me do not fully understand the difference between being redeemed from the Fall and being saved in the kingdom of heaven. Furthermore, receiving the promise of being saved is as good as being saved, although the time has not yet come where some who have the promise are saved.

I think your reading of 'rend the veil' as pertaining to seeing the Savior in this life only may be where I diverge. I see 'rend the veil' and 'come unto Christ' to mean more than a physical confrontation with the Savior. To me, it means the process of how this happens and that is what Joseph Smith explained in how we should be living our lives and that when we have proven ourselves, the end is to come into the Presence of the Lord.

Some claim the church doesn't teach this, which is false. The Temple endowment's purpose is to teach (using symbolism etc) us this process. The culmination of the endowment we are symbolically 'rending the veil' and returning to the presence of the Lord. What we learned through the endowment is that this comes through exercising Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Atonement, then being obedient to his commandments, which include following him and doing the works which he did.

I can see why this doctrine is not something that is stressed or taught in regular sunday meetings---members, investigators returning to activity, struggling with sins, etc. who attend our open church meetings are all at different spiritual levels--some would be overwhelmed and even feel depressed at this doctrine because they are not at that place in their life to be striving for this. But, the temple is the perfect place to teach this--to attend the temple, members must be at a worthiness level where they are obediently living many of the basic doctrines, practices and teachings of the church. Because of that, they are then in a position to be offered this higher level of spirituality to strive for. They can attend as often as they choose and the temple endowment will teach them how to 'rend the veil', some may think it is only for when we die, but with continued, prayerful deep pondering as we experience the endowment, those who are prepared, who have 'ears to hear' and 'eyes to see' will be inspired to understand that this can also be come to us in this life--if it is the Lord's will.

Eventually some faithful members reach the point where, like Moriancumr, they can no longer be held back from his presence. Some seem to think that a person MUST ASK for this experience--however, is 'wearying' the Lord through praying for this experience required to receive it? Clearly no, since Moriancumr was not praying for or expecting this experience, it came to him because he was worthy and had the faith for it to happen. Joseph Smith was not expecting or praying for God and Jesus Christ to appear to him, they did so because it fulfilled the purposes of the Lord in restoring the True Church.

[Arenera]

I think your reading of 'rend the veil' as pertaining to seeing the Savior in this life only may be where I diverge. I see 'rend the veil' and 'come unto Christ' to mean more than a physical confrontation with the Savior. To me, it means the process of how this happens and that is what Joseph Smith explained in how we should be living our lives and that when we have proven ourselves, the end is to come into the Presence of the Lord.

Some claim the church doesn't teach this, which is false. The Temple endowment's purpose is to teach (using symbolism etc) us this process. The culmination of the endowment we are symbolically 'rending the veil' and returning to the presence of the Lord. What we learned through the endowment is that this comes through exercising Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Atonement, then being obedient to his commandments, which include following him and doing the works which he did.

I can see why this doctrine is not something that is stressed or taught in regular sunday meetings---members, investigators returning to activity, struggling with sins, etc. who attend our open church meetings are all at different spiritual levels--some would be overwhelmed and even feel depressed at this doctrine because they are not at that place in their life to be striving for this. But, the temple is the perfect place to teach this--to attend the temple, members must be at a worthiness level where they are obediently living many of the basic doctrines, practices and teachings of the church. Because of that, they are then in a position to be offered this higher level of spirituality to strive for. They can attend as often as they choose and the temple endowment will teach them how to 'rend the veil', some may think it is only for when we die, but with continued, prayerful deep pondering as we experience the endowment, those who are prepared, who have 'ears to hear' and 'eyes to see' will be inspired to understand that this can also be come to us in this life--if it is the Lord's will.

Eventually some faithful members reach the point where, like Moriancumr, they can no longer be held back from his presence. Some seem to think that a person MUST ASK for this experience--however, is 'wearying' the Lord through praying for this experience required to receive it? Clearly no, since Moriancumr was not praying for or expecting this experience, it came to him because he was worthy and had the faith for it to happen. Joseph Smith was not expecting or praying for God and Jesus Christ to appear to him, they did so because it fulfilled the purposes of the Lord in restoring the True Church.

I know someone who identifies now with Remnants. They believe if they don't see Christ in this life, they will not go to the Celestial Kingdom.

To me, using words like accursed feeds into fear and possibly promotes people to push so hard that they become deceived and follow strange paths.

[diligently seeking]

I think your reading of 'rend the veil' as pertaining to seeing the Savior in this life only may be where I diverge. I see 'rend the veil' and 'come unto Christ' to mean more than a physical confrontation with the Savior. To me, it means the process of how this happens and that is what Joseph Smith explained in how we should be living our lives and that when we have proven ourselves, the end is to come into the Presence of the Lord.

Some claim the church doesn't teach this, which is false. The Temple endowment's purpose is to teach (using symbolism etc) us this process. The culmination of the endowment we are symbolically 'rending the veil' and returning to the presence of the Lord. What we learned through the endowment is that this comes through exercising Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Atonement, then being obedient to his commandments, which include following him and doing the works which he did.

I can see why this doctrine is not something that is stressed or taught in regular sunday meetings---members, investigators returning to activity, struggling with sins, etc. who attend our open church meetings are all at different spiritual levels--some would be overwhelmed and even feel depressed at this doctrine because they are not at that place in their life to be striving for this. But, the temple is the perfect place to teach this--to attend the temple, members must be at a worthiness level where they are obediently living many of the basic doctrines, practices and teachings of the church. Because of that, they are then in a position to be offered this higher level of spirituality to strive for. They can attend as often as they choose and the temple endowment will teach them how to 'rend the veil', some may think it is only for when we die, but with continued, prayerful deep pondering as we experience the endowment, those who are prepared, who have 'ears to hear' and 'eyes to see' will be inspired to understand that this can also be come to us in this life--if it is the Lord's will.

Eventually some faithful members reach the point where, like Moriancumr, they can no longer be held back from his presence. Some seem to think that a person MUST ASK for this experience--however, is 'wearying' the Lord through praying for this experience required to receive it? Clearly no, since Moriancumr was not praying for or expecting this experience, it came to him because he was worthy and had the faith for it to happen. Joseph Smith was not expecting or praying for God and Jesus Christ to appear to him, they did so because it fulfilled the purposes of the Lord in restoring the True Church.

I know someone who identifies now with Remnants. They believe if they don't see Christ in this life, they will not go to the Celestial Kingdom.

To me, using words like accursed feeds into fear and possibly promotes people to push so hard that they become deceived and follow strange paths.

Good thing you have the strength of the Book of Mormon to teach you how to achieve / receive all these blessings in wisdom and order.

[diligently seeking]

“Said the Prophet Joseph Smith after one of the most revelatory meetings in his life, “There was nothing made known to these men [the Twelve] but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive” (Teachings, p. 237). This is the religion of every man. Not “Take my word for my experience,” but “Duplicate it in your own life.” How far do I go with this? All the way.

Let me then come to a close. I have hiked, with my wife and at night, all the way from the base of what is known as Mt. Sinai to the top. (Incidentally, with a very sore toe. Climbing hurts, and the more you climb, sometimes the more it hurts.) We went up to where the air is thinner and the veil thinner. There isn’t time to describe the feeling, but we were able to recollect that Moses, there, had face-to-face communion with God. He came back down and said to the children of Israel, in the name of the God whose name he knew, “Now, you are invited to go back up with me.”

And they said, “Thank you. No. That’s for prophets. That’s for people who are a bit fanatical. We will stay here and you go up, Moses.”

In his absence they built an idol. The power of religious impulses goes in many directions. They built an idol—a thing—and were denied the privileges of Moses (D&C 84:23–25...). That is what our generation is now doing again. We are staying down below and then claiming superiority for our judgment in doing so.” Truman G. Madsen, On How We Know, BYU Devotional Address, Sept. 20, 1994

[diligently seeking]

...while having faith that if it is gods will to grant them otherwise then so be it? Genuinely interested in thoughts here. Do you feel doing this is against what is in scripture or what the lord would ask of us?

If you're addressing me, my reply is that throughout scripture it has been, it is, it will always be Jesus Christ's will to grant to you as much as you desire. And if you do not desire any of it, He will not force the matter. He will cheerfully not grant any wish you do not desire. But He does want you to desire all the gifts, which He has laid up for you.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Matthew 7:7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

D&C 103:31 Behold this is my will; ask and ye shall receive; but men do not always do my will.

But some may say that since it's not a commandment and how few are willing to to receive, Jesus will not give to an unwilling person. Why would He?

The reason I continue to share the things I do and patiently try to explain things in many different ways is because I know there are people who desire these things, but are not sure how it all works. I have spent thirty years digging and searching for and organizing all the relevant information so that I could understand what the Lord taught me those many years ago and so that I could make sense of it and try to condense it into easily digestible information. I do this for those few peaceable followers and humble seekers of Jesus Christ. They are lurking and reading our posts.

But to reiterate again what has been misunderstood, I have not said that we must see Jesus Christ's face in order to be saved. I believe that those who misunderstand me do not fully understand the difference between being redeemed from the Fall and being saved in the kingdom of heaven. Furthermore, receiving the promise of being saved is as good as being saved, although the time has not yet come where some who have the promise are saved.

I think your reading of 'rend the veil' as pertaining to seeing the Savior in this life only may be where I diverge. I see 'rend the veil' and 'come unto Christ' to mean more than a physical confrontation with the Savior. To me, it means the process of how this happens and that is what Joseph Smith explained in how we should be living our lives and that when we have proven ourselves, the end is to come into the Presence of the Lord.

Some claim the church doesn't teach this, which is false. The Temple endowment's purpose is to teach (using symbolism etc) us this process. The culmination of the endowment we are symbolically 'rending the veil' and returning to the presence of the Lord. What we learned through the endowment is that this comes through exercising Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Atonement, then being obedient to his commandments, which include following him and doing the works which he did.

I can see why this doctrine is not something that is stressed or taught in regular sunday meetings---members, investigators returning to activity, struggling with sins, etc. who attend our open church meetings are all at different spiritual levels--some would be overwhelmed and even feel depressed at this doctrine because they are not at that place in their life to be striving for this. But, the temple is the perfect place to teach this--to attend the temple, members must be at a worthiness level where they are obediently living many of the basic doctrines, practices and teachings of the church. Because of that, they are then in a position to be offered this higher level of spirituality to strive for. They can attend as often as they choose and the temple endowment will teach them how to 'rend the veil', some may think it is only for when we die, but with continued, prayerful deep pondering as we experience the endowment, those who are prepared, who have 'ears to hear' and 'eyes to see' will be inspired to understand that this can also be come to us in this life--if it is the Lord's will.

Eventually some faithful members reach the point where, like Moriancumr, they can no longer be held back from his presence. Some seem to think that a person MUST ASK for this experience--however, is 'wearying' the Lord through praying for this experience required to receive it? Clearly no, since Moriancumr was not praying for or expecting this experience, it came to him because he was worthy and had the faith for it to happen. Joseph Smith was not expecting or praying for God and Jesus Christ to appear to him, they did so because it fulfilled the purposes of the Lord in restoring the True Church.

That is why you and I and all who have the resources of the restoraction can be so much further along... We have the clear compilation of experiences gained and admonishments given as a result from those key figures of this restoration. I'm guessing in the history of revealed truth-- few people's have been more blessed than us to be able, if we would, align with Fathers will and blessings more readily.... The flip side of where much is given and unreceived is accursement / condemnation.

See D&C 84

[diligently seeking]

D&C 93

26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;


27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments. (See verse 1 hearing his voice acting on such personal commands)


28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things. (what truths could John testify of receiving on the Isle of Patmos in connection to this verse / promise and verse 26?)

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.


30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.


31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. (It is clear the light / fullness of truth this section refers to, yes?)


32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

[diligently seeking]

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;


34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.


35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.


36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.


37 Light and truth forsake that evil one. (Or and verse 39 end of)


38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.


39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.

[marc]

Arenera, you keep misunderstanding me and overlooking scriptures and quotes, which I provided. I don't want to push the matter further. I've laid out everything clearly.

[diligently seeking]

40 But I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.


41 But verily I say unto you, my servant Frederick G. Williams, you have continued under this condemnation;


42 You have not taught your children light and truth, according to the commandments; and that wicked one hath power, as yet, over you, and this is the cause of your affliction. (To gain and teach light and truth as understood in this section is to be protected. Too often I hear the worry expressed of being lead astray if we seek after deeper truths. This verse teaches the opposite. God will fight our battles. Be believing!)


43 And now a commandment I give unto you—if you will be delivered you shall set in order your own house, for there are many things that are not right in your house. (False traditions of the fathers etc see verse 39)


44 Verily, I say unto my servant Sidney Rigdon, that in some things he hath not kept the commandments concerning his children; therefore, first set in order thy house.


45 Verily, I say unto my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., or in other words, I will call you friends, for you are my friends, and ye shall have an inheritance with me (Joseph has mentioned the great anchor to ones soul to know you have received the promise of eternal life. No doubt the last words in this verse stand as comfort amongst the rebuke he and others are receiving)


46 I called you servants for the world’s sake, and ye are their servants for my sake

47 And now, verily I say unto Joseph Smith, Jun.—You have not kept the commandments, and must needs stand rebuked before the Lord;

48 Your family must needs repent and forsake some things, and give more earnest heed unto your sayings, or be removed out of their place.

49 What I say unto one I say unto all; pray always lest that wicked one have power in you, and remove you out of your place.

[Arenera]

40 But I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.


41 But verily I say unto you, my servant Frederick G. Williams, you have continued under this condemnation;


42 You have not taught your children light and truth, according to the commandments; and that wicked one hath power, as yet, over you, and this is the cause of your affliction. (To gain and teach light and truth as understood in this section is to be protected. Too often I hear the worry expressed of being lead astray if we seek after deeper truths. This verse teaches the opposite. God will fight our battles. Be believing!)


43 And now a commandment I give unto you—if you will be delivered you shall set in order your own house, for there are many things that are not right in your house. (False traditions of the fathers etc see verse 39)


44 Verily, I say unto my servant Sidney Rigdon, that in some things he hath not kept the commandments concerning his children; therefore, first set in order thy house.


45 Verily, I say unto my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., or in other words, I will call you friends, for you are my friends, and ye shall have an inheritance with me (Joseph has mentioned the great anchor to ones soul to know you have received the promise of eternal life. No doubt the last words in this verse stand as comfort amongst the rebuke he and others are receiving)


46 I called you servants for the world’s sake, and ye are their servants for my sake

47 And now, verily I say unto Joseph Smith, Jun.—You have not kept the commandments, and must needs stand rebuked before the Lord;

48 Your family must needs repent and forsake some things, and give more earnest heed unto your sayings, or be removed out of their place.

49 What I say unto one I say unto all; pray always lest that wicked one have power in you, and remove you out of your place.

So you are rebuking all of us?

[diligently seeking]

Receiving anything short of a fullness of his joy as section 93 refers clearly to (93:1) is to receive an accursement / condemnation.

Please refer to Sister True's words on the mercy and love Christ offers us as we strive to ascend through the merits mercy and grace of our great Advocate Jesus Christ our Savior and Redeemer.

[diligently seeking]

40 But I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.


41 But verily I say unto you, my servant Frederick G. Williams, you have continued under this condemnation;


42 You have not taught your children light and truth, according to the commandments; and that wicked one hath power, as yet, over you, and this is the cause of your affliction. (To gain and teach light and truth as understood in this section is to be protected. Too often I hear the worry expressed of being lead astray if we seek after deeper truths. This verse teaches the opposite. God will fight our battles. Be believing!)


43 And now a commandment I give unto you—if you will be delivered you shall set in order your own house, for there are many things that are not right in your house. (False traditions of the fathers etc see verse 39)


44 Verily, I say unto my servant Sidney Rigdon, that in some things he hath not kept the commandments concerning his children; therefore, first set in order thy house.


45 Verily, I say unto my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., or in other words, I will call you friends, for you are my friends, and ye shall have an inheritance with me (Joseph has mentioned the great anchor to ones soul to know you have received the promise of eternal life. No doubt the last words in this verse stand as comfort amongst the rebuke he and others are receiving)


46 I called you servants for the world’s sake, and ye are their servants for my sake

47 And now, verily I say unto Joseph Smith, Jun.—You have not kept the commandments, and must needs stand rebuked before the Lord;

48 Your family must needs repent and forsake some things, and give more earnest heed unto your sayings, or be removed out of their place.

49 What I say unto one I say unto all; pray always lest that wicked one have power in you, and remove you out of your place.

So you are rebuking all of us?

Nay negative. Just quoting highlighting and giving some extra meaning on the Lord's words.

[Arenera]

I think using words like accursed and rebuke takes away from the message you are trying to make. Nor do I think it inspires others to seek Christ.

[diligently seeking]

Code: Select all

I think using words like accursed and rebuke takes away from the message you are trying to make. Nor do I think it inspires others to seek Christ.

I take it that you did not read the Lord's word's in D&C 93?

This scripture just now came to my mind. Araena. These words apply to me and you and all who think that the reverse of sin or willful ignorance etc approach should be lived. The clear fact is as fallen people we as the scripture says are carnal sensual and devilish continually. Until we receive as Jacob received--- it is important that we are not soft peddled. We are blessed though--- for the scriptures are abundantly full of God's expression of Love & Mercy kindness and help towards us, but it is true he speaks harshly against sin and clearly lets us know the consequences of wrongheaded thinking and acting.


2nephi 9
38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.
39 O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal.
40 O, my beloved brethren, give ear to my words. Remember the greatness of the Holy One of Israel. Do not say that I have spoken hard things against you; for if ye do, ye will revile against the truth; for I have spoken the words of your Maker. I know that the words of truth are hard against all uncleanness; but the righteous fear them not, for they love the truth and are not shaken.
41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.
42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.
43 But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever—yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints.
44 O, my beloved brethren, remember my words. Behold, I take off my garments, and I shake them before you; I pray the God of my salvation that he view me with his all-searching eye; wherefore, ye shall know at the last day, when all men shall be judged of their works, that the God of Israel did witness that I shook your iniquities from my soul, and that I stand with brightness before him, and am rid of your blood.
45 O, my beloved brethren, turn away from your sins; shake off the chains of him that would bind you fast; come unto that God who is the rock of your salvation.
46 Prepare your souls for that glorious day when justice shall be administered unto the righteous, even the day of judgment, that ye may not shrink with awful fear; that ye may not remember your awful guilt in perfectness, and be constrained to exclaim: Holy, holy are thy judgments, O Lord God Almighty—but I know my guilt; I transgressed thy law, and my transgressions are mine; and the devil hath obtained me, that I am a prey to his awful misery.
47 But behold, my brethren, is it expedient that I should awake you to an awful reality of these things? Would I harrow up your souls if your minds were pure? Would I be plain unto you according to the plainness of the truth if ye were freed from sin?
48 Behold, if ye were holy I would speak unto you of holiness; but as ye are not holy, and ye look upon me as a teacher, it must needs be expedient that I teach you the consequences of sin.
49 Behold, my soul abhorreth sin, and my heart delighteth in righteousness; and I will praise the holy name of my God.
50 Come, my brethren, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters; and he that hath no money, come buy and eat; yea, come buy wine and milk without money and without price.
51 Wherefore, do not spend money for that which is of no worth, nor your labor for that which cannot satisfy. Hearken diligently unto me, and remember the words which I have spoken; and come unto the Holy One of Israel, and feast upon that which perisheth not, neither can be corrupted, and let your soul delight in fatness.
52 Behold, my beloved brethren, remember the words of your God; pray unto him continually by day, and give thanks unto his holy name by night. Let your hearts rejoice.

[Arenera]

Code: Select all

I think using words like accursed and rebuke takes away from the message you are trying to make. Nor do I think it inspires others to seek Christ.

I take it that you did not read the Lord's word's in D&C 93?

This scripture just now came to my mind. Araena. These words apply to me and you and all who think that the reverse of sin or willful ignorance etc approach should be lived. The clear fact is as fallen people we as the scripture says are carnal sensual and devilish continually. Until we receive as Jacob received--- it is important that we are not soft peddled. We are blessed though--- for the scriptures are abundantly full of God's expression of Love & Mercy kindness and help towards us, but it is true he speaks harshly against sin and clearly lets us know the consequences of wrongheaded thinking and acting.


2nephi 9
38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.
39 O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal.
40 O, my beloved brethren, give ear to my words. Remember the greatness of the Holy One of Israel. Do not say that I have spoken hard things against you; for if ye do, ye will revile against the truth; for I have spoken the words of your Maker. I know that the words of truth are hard against all uncleanness; but the righteous fear them not, for they love the truth and are not shaken.
41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.
42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.
43 But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever—yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints.
44 O, my beloved brethren, remember my words. Behold, I take off my garments, and I shake them before you; I pray the God of my salvation that he view me with his all-searching eye; wherefore, ye shall know at the last day, when all men shall be judged of their works, that the God of Israel did witness that I shook your iniquities from my soul, and that I stand with brightness before him, and am rid of your blood.
45 O, my beloved brethren, turn away from your sins; shake off the chains of him that would bind you fast; come unto that God who is the rock of your salvation.
46 Prepare your souls for that glorious day when justice shall be administered unto the righteous, even the day of judgment, that ye may not shrink with awful fear; that ye may not remember your awful guilt in perfectness, and be constrained to exclaim: Holy, holy are thy judgments, O Lord God Almighty—but I know my guilt; I transgressed thy law, and my transgressions are mine; and the devil hath obtained me, that I am a prey to his awful misery.
47 But behold, my brethren, is it expedient that I should awake you to an awful reality of these things? Would I harrow up your souls if your minds were pure? Would I be plain unto you according to the plainness of the truth if ye were freed from sin?
48 Behold, if ye were holy I would speak unto you of holiness; but as ye are not holy, and ye look upon me as a teacher, it must needs be expedient that I teach you the consequences of sin.
49 Behold, my soul abhorreth sin, and my heart delighteth in righteousness; and I will praise the holy name of my God.
50 Come, my brethren, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters; and he that hath no money, come buy and eat; yea, come buy wine and milk without money and without price.
51 Wherefore, do not spend money for that which is of no worth, nor your labor for that which cannot satisfy. Hearken diligently unto me, and remember the words which I have spoken; and come unto the Holy One of Israel, and feast upon that which perisheth not, neither can be corrupted, and let your soul delight in fatness.
52 Behold, my beloved brethren, remember the words of your God; pray unto him continually by day, and give thanks unto his holy name by night. Let your hearts rejoice.

What you are preaching is not what is taught by our leaders. You are welcome to have your opinion. Members I know strive to make and keep the ordinances, and serve and help others.

[marc]

I think using words like accursed and rebuke takes away from the message you are trying to make. Nor do I think it inspires others to seek Christ.

Jesus Christ used the word accursed twice, but I did quote Him. I'm sure I did not use the word rebuke, however please feel free to quote me if I did. Besides this, I wish you a blessed weekend.

[Finrock]

What is the FULL MEASURE of our Saviors mortal purpose?

What must happen to fulfill this purpose?

I tell you that it is to fulfill GODS purpose… “To bring to pass the immortality of mankind”. To provide a way that man may be saved. This is called the Plan of Salvation.

This can only come by the means of the spiritual ordinance of “Baptism of Fire” (The Holy Ghost).

Once you have received this ordinance you are in fact in the Gate to the Celestial Kingdom (the Holy Ghost is the Gate). This is when thee Atonement purifies you, “That you may stand Blameless”. Thus completing Gods purpose stated above “To bring to pass the immortality of mankind”, the Plan of Salvation.

This is why our Saviors Gossip is, Repentance, Baptism by water, Baptism by Fire. Once you have received the “Baptism of Fire” you have in fact fulfilled Our Saviors mission. The Fullness of our Saviors Gospel is in fact the same as the Fullness of his Mortal Purpose. The meaning of Fullness is to FULFILL to make FULL

Now if you want to talk about our “Father’s Eternal Plan of Happiness”, there is much more. But that is not part of this discussion and really has no bearing on it. Because it doesn’t excise until you have opened the Gate, or until We have Fulfilled our Saviors Purpose. We know the Eternal Plan of Happiness is there but until you obtain this promise (Baptism of Fire) you can’t obtain the promises that follow.

The reason this is important is… Our Father’s house is a house of order. If we a looking at the prize after the prize you often miss. I will use a sports analogy. You never look passed your opponent in front of you, planning for your next opponent. This will almost always lead to failure and under achieving.

If we don’t know our Saviors Gospel and His Purpose how are we ever going to receive the blessings It has to offer, and if we miss the mark on It then we miss out on everything that follows.

This is Nephi’s vision of the tree of life!! The Gossip of Jesus Christ…. Remember Lehi/Nephi’s vision of the Tree of Life is the Plan of Salvation. The Purpose, Mission and Gospel of our Savior.

-Finrock

[diligently seeking]

Arenera, you are reading past what I am saying. It appears with your statements that you are giving straw man accusations. I am in no position to rebuke or condemn. Nor did I do this-- nor did any one else. At the end of the day we are comfortable with what we have experienced. This is why the Book of Mormon is so vital. Let it be your personal liahona. Let the spirit interpret / illuminate it for you. This great book truly does hold your hand through the spiritual growth process that leads you to the arms of Jesus. When we let anyone but the Holy Ghost interpret it for us we are bound to hit stumbling blocks, and we are bound to have scales obstruct our eyes / vision. Once we start experiencing the blessings of growth and sanctification / the manifestations of the gift of the spirit in our life ---believing the admonitions and warnings in holy writ do not fall on deaf ears or an impenetrable heart. Additionally, through this growing process because our faith is being rewarded our belief becomes so much greater than our unbelief / fear. We begin to realize on a personal (sweet/ reassuring) level that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. in this process you rejoice to realize that in his timing all necessary promises for exaltation will be fulfilled as our desire and effort and the grace and merits and mercy of Jesus are in full sway in our life. Again, how fortunate we are to understand through the Book of Mormon and the other scripture resources and key figures of the restoration what this "full sway" looks like. The Gospel of Jesus Christ "received" is more than occasional warm fuzzies and a scattering of peace and joy and happiness in our life. God is no respecter of persons, eras, or ages or dispensations. when you read of the blessings that have occurred in the scriptures they can and should be occurring for us in the Here and Now. When we believe Gods narrative / message in holy writ these things start occurring for us. Life is not without opposition and difficulty. often times as we seek to receive a greater portion of God's word the adversary is able to rise up and try to thwart our progress. It has always been so. We can always take comfort and be rest assured that Joy and Victory and Promises fulfilled always comes in an eventual designated morning of our life as we move forward regardless of opposition. I don't mean to wear this thread out. I had a rare day off from both jobs, and in between doing loads of laundry etc at home I found myself indulging . My life is far from perfect and if I let you in on what it looks like you could think to choose that there is plenty of reason to throw stones at me. That said, a person such as myself-- has received choice blessings in this gospel and as a result my faith and confidence in receiving all that is available in this Mortal probation is (exceedingly) strong. Begin to experience-- it makes all the difference.

[Arenera]

The Book of Mormon has several examples of those seeing Christ, like Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Isaiah, Alma, Alma the Younger, Sons of Mosiah, Mormon, Moroni, Lamoni, Lamoni's Father, etc.

Before they saw Christ, they exhibited faith and desire, repentance, a mighty change of heart. All of them did their best to encourage and help others to come unto Christ.

What is the purpose of seeing Christ if we are not changed?

It is about love, charity, the pure love of Christ. It may not be an easy process. It isn't about fear, it is about love.

[diligently seeking]

The Book of Mormon has several examples of those seeing Christ, like Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Isaiah, Alma, Alma the Younger, Sons of Mosiah, Mormon, Moroni, Lamoni, Lamoni's Father, etc.

Before they saw Christ, they exhibited faith and desire, repentance, a mighty change of heart. All of them did their best to encourage and help others to come unto Christ.

What is the purpose of seeing Christ if we are not changed?

It is about love, charity, the pure love of Christ. It may not be an easy process. It isn't about fear, it is about love.

Amen.

He Is Here https://g.co/kgs/hK7qFy

Redeemed https://g.co/kgs/XQBfae

Good night.