People claiming to have seen Christ

[Mark]

Then was it merely a recommendation given to us by Jesus Christ to rend the veil; a random suggestion, or perhaps was it a commandment, which Jesus Christ issued in Ether 4? What is it called when Jesus Christ says to do something?

This from the prophet Joseph:

"The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great
interest, and perhaps understood by few of this generation.
After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is
baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy
Ghost, (by the laying on of hands),which is the first
Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before
God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living
by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him,
Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly
proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve
Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his
election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the
other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints,
as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th
chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses. . . ."

I think the caveat given of being fully proven by the Lord to serve him at all costs is so important to understand. We do not determine within our own time frame when the Lord should bestow upon us these great blessings. It is for the Lord to determine in his own time frame. The Lords course is one eternal round. It is not productive for us to try and measure out His timing for us. Many righteous and faithful Saints have passed thru the veil of mortality into immortality without seeing the face of the Lord in their mortal lives. Did the Lord value them less or feel they were not worthy because this blessing never occurred for them in mortality? I would be careful in making such judgement. Accepting the Lords will for us is key to living a faith filled life. All things will work for our good if we do so.

[Contemplator]

Then was it merely a recommendation given to us by Jesus Christ to rend the veil; a random suggestion, or perhaps was it a commandment, which Jesus Christ issued in Ether 4? What is it called when Jesus Christ says to do something?

In particular, Ether 4: 7 -

And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

And, as quoted above, Joseph Smith said:

1st key: Knowledge is the power of salvation. 2nd key: Make your calling and election sure. 3rd key: It is one thing to be on the mount and hear the excellent voice, etc., and another to hear the voice declare to you, You have a part and lot in that kingdom. (May 21, 1843.) DHC 5:401-403.

These are clear statements by Jesus Christ through Moroni or Joseph Smith. Can we just ignore them? Personally, I find these kind of statements in the scriptures and the teachings of the prophets quite challenging. Why? Because they imply that my faith is not yet fully developed and that there is more for me to experience from my Savior. It motivates me to keep seeking and to be very grateful for all that He gives.

[marc]

Desiring and working toward seeing Jesus Christ in the flesh is fine, but it's not what brings Salvation and Exaltation in the Kingdom of God. Being redeemed through the blood of Jesus Christ is what saves us. Having Faith, repenting of our sins, on a daily basis, Being baptized by one having authority, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and heeding it's guidance-- changing our ways, being obedient to the Lord's commandments and teachings, following his example in reaching out, loving and serving those around us, and doing all we can to become like our Savior--and continuing this, through ups and downs, our whole life--THAT is why we are here and what our focus should be on accomplishing.

This is the Doctrine of Christ which the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attempts to teach us and guide us to do. This is why the church doesn't put the emphasis some seem to want--on seeing Jesus Christ in this life--because that is NOT where the focus ought to be; this experience will come, eventually, if it is God's will for us, but to focus on this one thing means our attention is taken from the things that really matter most.

Brings up an interesting question:

Lets assume that one was never taught the gospel in this life but accepts it in the next and has all the ordinances done vicariously. What of their opportunity to rend the veil while in the flesh if that is a qualifier for salvation?

Something just occurred to me with the question that drtanner posed. One must first enter in at the gate (2 Nephi 31) and once one has entered in at the way and begun to press forward, having received the Holy Ghost (2 Nephi 32), one can then and must then press forward until one comes to the tree of life to partake of the fruit. This is the process. The issue arises where most if not all of us are still pressing forward along the iron rod in darkness. It may be that some of us have not yet entered in at the gate (actually "received" the Holy Ghost, which tells us all things what we should do). We seem to be questioning whether or not we must partake of the fruit of the tree of life while in the flesh as Lehi and his family and countless others in his dream did. The dream represents the journey of us all while in the flesh. The tree of life, which Nephi also called the fountain of living waters, represents Jesus Christ and to partake of the fruit is to partake of salvation. Nephi tried explaining this to his brothers when they asked about the meaning of the dream when he concluded with:

1 Nephi 15:36 Wherefore, the wicked are rejected from the righteous, and also from that tree of life, whose fruit is most precious and most desirable above all other fruits; yea, and it is the greatest of all the gifts of God. And thus I spake unto my brethren. Amen.

The Lord explained to those who labored with Joseph Smith what this meant:

D&C 6:13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.

This passage where the Lord describes holding out faithful to the end hearkens to the journey of enduring to the end, which is to press forward along the iron rod in order to arrive at the tree and partake of the fruit. The Lord reiterates this again:

D&C 14:7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

There have been and will be many whose mortal lives are cut short, but if their lives are cut short while having pressed forward fully intending and desiring to partake of the fruit, they will be judged according to their works according to the desires of their hearts.

D&C 137:9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

Now to finally answer your question, there are those who have never heard the gospel, but like Joseph's brother Alvin, whom Joseph saw in heaven in a vision, who would have accepted the gospel and the path with all their hearts will obtain according to their desires. In other words, had Alvin tarried in the flesh, his works would have been like Joseph's or Hyrum's or similar. Alvin would have cheerfully served the Lord at all hazards and been faithful as Joseph and Hyrum.

D&C 137:6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

[AI2.0]

Then was it merely a recommendation given to us by Jesus Christ to rend the veil; a random suggestion, or perhaps was it a commandment, which Jesus Christ issued in Ether 4? What is it called when Jesus Christ says to do something?

It's an admonishment, but it isn't a demand--such as Snuffer pushes. If we follow Snuffer's line of thinking, then only Moriancumr made it to the Celestial Kingdom--the rest of his poeple(save the handful who MIGHT HAVE seen Christ in the flesh) were relegated to the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom. Oh, and did I forget? Snuffer would probably relegate ALL Moriancumr's people to the Telestial Kingdom, since he claims that those who follow the 'arm of flesh' go there.

This is where the whole interpretation of "'rending the veil' means exclusively, seeing Christ in the flesh", becomes a bane rather than a blessing. The gospel has always encouraged us to receive our Calling and Election but some people have taken it to unhealthy extremes--to the point where they've left the church! They've made it the entrance into the Celestial Kingdom. Now, that is NOT LDS doctrine, and that's been my complaint ever since I started reading the posters on this forum attempting to rewrite doctrine and push their own agendas.

The doctrine of Calling and Election Made Sure used to be such a beautiful, spiritually inspiring, sacred teaching but the fringe out-of-harmony LDS dissenters who've followed Snuffer and others like the Amonhite/Elliason types have ruined it.

[AI2.0]

Desiring and working toward seeing Jesus Christ in the flesh is fine, but it's not what brings Salvation and Exaltation in the Kingdom of God. Being redeemed through the blood of Jesus Christ is what saves us. Having Faith, repenting of our sins, on a daily basis, Being baptized by one having authority, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and heeding it's guidance-- changing our ways, being obedient to the Lord's commandments and teachings, following his example in reaching out, loving and serving those around us, and doing all we can to become like our Savior--and continuing this, through ups and downs, our whole life--THAT is why we are here and what our focus should be on accomplishing.

This is the Doctrine of Christ which the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attempts to teach us and guide us to do. This is why the church doesn't put the emphasis some seem to want--on seeing Jesus Christ in this life--because that is NOT where the focus ought to be; this experience will come, eventually, if it is God's will for us, but to focus on this one thing means our attention is taken from the things that really matter most.

President Nelson said this in April 2016 conference:

I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others.

Do you think this is actually a visitation/s with Christ, or reading the scriptures and conference talks?

It's not just reading scriptures and conferences talks and it's not necessarily having an actual visitation in the flesh from the Master.

I don't know about you, but I can attest that I have been personally taught by the Lord himself--I know it. There have been some experiences in my life where I was diligently seeking answers and the answers came from my Savior strongly to my mind and to my heart, I was 'one' with him, understanding exactly what he was telling me. Now, those who interpret Pres. Nelson's words to mean that we must see Christ in the flesh to be 'taught' by him, they will dismiss what I've said, but because of my own personal experiences, when I read what Pres. Nelson said in Conference, I understand what he is urging us to do.

[marc]

The doctrine of Calling and Election Made Sure used to be such a beautiful, spiritually inspiring, sacred teaching but the fringe out-of-harmony LDS dissenters who've followed Snuffer and others like the Amonhite/Elliason types have ruined it.

Admonishment sounds fair. I think it is still a very beautiful and inspiring teaching. The fact that "fringe out-of-harmony LDS dissenters" seem to have ruined it for some does not make it untrue. More power to those who seek it. I get that we shouldn't force it. I would further say that we are powerless to force it. But we are not powerless to weary the Lord as He admonishes we do.

[AI2.0]

The doctrine of Calling and Election Made Sure used to be such a beautiful, spiritually inspiring, sacred teaching but the fringe out-of-harmony LDS dissenters who've followed Snuffer and others like the Amonhite/Elliason types have ruined it.

Admonishment sounds fair. I think it is still a very beautiful and inspiring teaching. The fact that "fringe out-of-harmony LDS dissenters" seem to have ruined it for some does not make it untrue. More power to those who seek it. I get that we shouldn't force it. I would further say that we are powerless to force it. But we are not powerless to weary the Lord as He admonishes we do.

I can agree with this. I don't weary the Lord to see him, but I certainly weary him about so so many things. Personally, I don't feel worthy to see him in the flesh at this time, I don't believe I have proven myself to him, that I will serve him at all costs (or better yet, clearly I have not proven myself to myself), as Joseph Smith said. What irks me is that I've known about this doctrine for decades and always gained so much comfort and strength from striving to be worthy, then I join this forum and find that dissenters have taken an incredible, beautiful blessing bestowed by God and turned it into a cudgel to bludgeon the saints with, making it some kind of elitist club. And then, adding insult to injury, Snuffer makes it a requirement for entering Heaven and creates all kinds of anxiety, fanaticism and fear in the poor fools who trust his claims! Very sad indeed and if you ask me, Satanically inspired.

[h_p]

It's too bad we can't even talk about these doctrines without someone dragging Snuffer into it.

[Arenera]

The doctrine of Calling and Election Made Sure used to be such a beautiful, spiritually inspiring, sacred teaching but the fringe out-of-harmony LDS dissenters who've followed Snuffer and others like the Amonhite/Elliason types have ruined it.

Admonishment sounds fair. I think it is still a very beautiful and inspiring teaching. The fact that "fringe out-of-harmony LDS dissenters" seem to have ruined it for some does not make it untrue. More power to those who seek it. I get that we shouldn't force it. I would further say that we are powerless to force it. But we are not powerless to weary the Lord as He admonishes we do.

I can agree with this. I don't weary the Lord to see him, but I certainly weary him about so so many things. Personally, I don't feel worthy to see him in the flesh at this time, I don't believe I have proven myself to him, that I will serve him at all costs (or better yet, clearly I have not proven myself to myself), as Joseph Smith said. What irks me is that I've known about this doctrine for decades and always gained so much comfort and strength from striving to be worthy, then I join this forum and find that dissenters have taken an incredible, beautiful blessing bestowed by God and turned it into a cudgel to bludgeon the saints with, making it some kind of elitist club. And then, adding insult to injury, Snuffer makes it a requirement for entering Heaven and creates all kinds of anxiety, fanaticism and fear in the poor fools who trust his claims! Very sad indeed and if you ask me, Satanically inspired.

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

The Book of Mormon does not say you have to see Christ in this life to be saved.

It does say to come unto Christ.

[marc]

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

The Book of Mormon does not say you have to see Christ in this life to be saved.

It does say to come unto Christ.

It is correct to say that the Book of Mormon does not explicitly declare that "you have to see Christ in this life to be saved." But to be saved is not the same as to be redeemed from the Fall. They are two distinct and different things. Furthermore, it does say throughout the Book of Mormon how one is to come unto Christ, particularly in Ether chapter 4 where Jesus Christ explicitly tells the reader that whoso should deny the manner in which He has declared to come unto Him will be accursed.

Ether 4:8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh...

Therefore, let the reader understand that it is Jesus Christ who speaks and to understand the manner as declared by Jesus Christ how "a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." One cannot get any nearer than by rending the veil and seeing Him face to face as declared by Jesus Christ in Ether 4, unless one finds himself encircled about in His arms of love, embraced by Him. It is one thing for someone not to believe or desire it, but it is another to deny it's truthfulness and further to discourage others who might otherwise desire to do the same.

[diligently seeking]

Always always be seeking-----as the scripture says with patience you will see his face / be a partaker of the Heavenly gift. God is so merciful to those who desire to believe. He has an invested interest in this occurring for all of us for it is his work and Glory to bring to pass are immortality and eternal life. Always let the Holy Spirit Feed The Narrative of Truth... Being received by Jesus and all that that represents his love his comfort his promise and blessing of Exaltation can occur between the moments of life and death in our life etc. how great is his Mercy and how quick and Powerful is he in fulfilling his promises to those that believe...

[Arenera]

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

The Book of Mormon does not say you have to see Christ in this life to be saved.

It does say to come unto Christ.

It is correct to say that the Book of Mormon does not explicitly declare that "you have to see Christ in this life to be saved." But to be saved is not the same as to be redeemed from the Fall. They are two distinct and different things. Furthermore, it does say throughout the Book of Mormon how one is to come unto Christ, particularly in Ether chapter 4 where Jesus Christ explicitly tells the reader that whoso should deny the manner in which He has declared to come unto Him will be accursed.

Ether 4:8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh...

Therefore, let the reader understand that it is Jesus Christ who speaks and to understand the manner as declared by Jesus Christ how "a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." One cannot get any nearer than by rending the veil and seeing Him face to face as declared by Jesus Christ in Ether 4, unless one finds himself encircled about in His arms of love, embraced by Him. It is one thing for someone not to believe or desire it, but it is another to deny it's truthfulness and further to discourage others who might otherwise desire to do the same.

I think you are taking things out of context. You are the only person I have heard that says we are accursed if we don't see Christ in the flesh, while living.

In the end of the same chapter 4, Christ says:

18 Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name.

19 And blessed is he that is found faithful unto my name at the last day, for he shall be lifted up to dwell in the kingdom prepared for him from the foundation of the world. And behold it is I that hath spoken it. Amen.

Repent, "come unto me", believe, be baptized, be saved. Faithful unto my name.

Christ does not say that we have to see him in the flesh to be saved.

[JohnnyL]

President Benson:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... d?lang=eng

The great test of life is obedience to God. “We will prove them herewith,” said the Lord, “to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them” (Abr. 3:25).

The great task of life is to learn the will of the Lord and then do it.

The great commandment of life is to love the Lord.

“Come unto Christ,” exhorts Moroni in his closing testimony, “… and love God with all your might, mind and strength” (Moro. 10:32).

This, then, is the first and great commandment: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength” (Mark 12:30; see also Matt. 22:37; Deut. 6:5; Luke 10:27; Moro. 10:32; D&C 59:5).

It is the pure love of Christ, called charity, that the Book of Mormon testifies is the greatest of all—that never faileth, that endureth forever, that all men should have, and that without which they are nothing (see Moro. 7:44–47; 2 Ne. 26:30).

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren,” pleads Moroni, “pray unto the Father with all the energy of [your] heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him” (Moro. 7:48).

So "seeing God's face" is not the test, nor the task, nor the commandment of life.

[bold]Given the thread about an apostle completely destroying "flat earth," how about using the same principle and admitting a prophet destroying that the test, or task, or commandment of life is to "seek to see Jesus"?[/bold]

[marc]

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

The Book of Mormon does not say you have to see Christ in this life to be saved.

It does say to come unto Christ.

It is correct to say that the Book of Mormon does not explicitly declare that "you have to see Christ in this life to be saved." But to be saved is not the same as to be redeemed from the Fall. They are two distinct and different things. Furthermore, it does say throughout the Book of Mormon how one is to come unto Christ, particularly in Ether chapter 4 where Jesus Christ explicitly tells the reader that whoso should deny the manner in which He has declared to come unto Him will be accursed.

Ether 4:8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh...

Therefore, let the reader understand that it is Jesus Christ who speaks and to understand the manner as declared by Jesus Christ how "a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." One cannot get any nearer than by rending the veil and seeing Him face to face as declared by Jesus Christ in Ether 4, unless one finds himself encircled about in His arms of love, embraced by Him. It is one thing for someone not to believe or desire it, but it is another to deny it's truthfulness and further to discourage others who might otherwise desire to do the same.

I think you are taking things out of context. You are the only person I have heard that says we are accursed if we don't see Christ in the flesh, while living.

In the end of the same chapter 4, Christ says:

18 Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name.

19 And blessed is he that is found faithful unto my name at the last day, for he shall be lifted up to dwell in the kingdom prepared for him from the foundation of the world. And behold it is I that hath spoken it. Amen.

Repent, "come unto me", believe, be baptized, be saved. Faithful unto my name.

Christ does not say that we have to see him in the flesh to be saved.

I keep rewording myself to explain that I am not saying that. Points are being conflated by the misunderstanding of others.

[drtanner]

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

The Book of Mormon does not say you have to see Christ in this life to be saved.

It does say to come unto Christ.

It is correct to say that the Book of Mormon does not explicitly declare that "you have to see Christ in this life to be saved." But to be saved is not the same as to be redeemed from the Fall. They are two distinct and different things. Furthermore, it does say throughout the Book of Mormon how one is to come unto Christ, particularly in Ether chapter 4 where Jesus Christ explicitly tells the reader that whoso should deny the manner in which He has declared to come unto Him will be accursed.

Ether 4:8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh...

Therefore, let the reader understand that it is Jesus Christ who speaks and to understand the manner as declared by Jesus Christ how "a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." One cannot get any nearer than by rending the veil and seeing Him face to face as declared by Jesus Christ in Ether 4, unless one finds himself encircled about in His arms of love, embraced by Him. It is one thing for someone not to believe or desire it, but it is another to deny it's truthfulness and further to discourage others who might otherwise desire to do the same.

I think you are taking things out of context. You are the only person I have heard that says we are accursed if we don't see Christ in the flesh, while living.

In the end of the same chapter 4, Christ says:

18 Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name.

19 And blessed is he that is found faithful unto my name at the last day, for he shall be lifted up to dwell in the kingdom prepared for him from the foundation of the world. And behold it is I that hath spoken it. Amen.

Repent, "come unto me", believe, be baptized, be saved. Faithful unto my name.

Christ does not say that we have to see him in the flesh to be saved.

I keep rewording myself to explain that I am not saying that. Points are being conflated by the misunderstanding of others.

Truly I believe that everyone wants to have an experience like the brother of Jared.

The feeling I get from many is that if it is not required for salvation and may come with additional hazards possibility for deception etc to obtain and does not change our status and privileges with God in the afterlife why not be content with simple obedience and love of God? Why exert the mental effort, focus, prayer, etc to this end. Why not become immersed in the doctrine of Christ and helping others achieve salvation through faith repentance baptism and the Holy Ghost and onward to temple covenants and blessings, and be content with these other blessings after this life while having faith that if it is gods will to grant them otherwise then so be it? Genuinely interested in thoughts here. Do you feel doing this is against what is in scripture or what the lord would ask of us?

[marc]

...while having faith that if it is gods will to grant them otherwise then so be it? Genuinely interested in thoughts here. Do you feel doing this is against what is in scripture or what the lord would ask of us?

If you're addressing me, my reply is that throughout scripture it has been, it is, it will always be Jesus Christ's will to grant to you as much as you desire. And if you do not desire any of it, He will not force the matter. He will cheerfully not grant any wish you do not desire. But He does want you to desire all the gifts, which He has laid up for you.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Matthew 7:7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

D&C 103:31 Behold this is my will; ask and ye shall receive; but men do not always do my will.

But some may say that since it's not a commandment and how few are willing to to receive, Jesus will not give to an unwilling person. Why would He?

The reason I continue to share the things I do and patiently try to explain things in many different ways is because I know there are people who desire these things, but are not sure how it all works. I have spent thirty years digging and searching for and organizing all the relevant information so that I could understand what the Lord taught me those many years ago and so that I could make sense of it and try to condense it into easily digestible information. I do this for those few peaceable followers and humble seekers of Jesus Christ. They are lurking and reading our posts.

But to reiterate again what has been misunderstood, I have not said that we must see Jesus Christ's face in order to be saved. I believe that those who misunderstand me do not fully understand the difference between being redeemed from the Fall and being saved in the kingdom of heaven. Furthermore, receiving the promise of being saved is as good as being saved, although the time has not yet come where some who have the promise are saved.

[Arenera]

But to reiterate again what has been misunderstood, I have not said that we must see Jesus Christ's face in order to be saved. I believe that those who misunderstand me do not fully understand the difference between being redeemed from the Fall and being saved in the kingdom of heaven. Furthermore, receiving the promise of being saved is as good as being saved, although the time has not yet come where some who have the promise are saved.

Humble lurkers...

What is the difference to you of being redeemed and being saved?

[Contemplator]

But to reiterate again what has been misunderstood, I have not said that we must see Jesus Christ's face in order to be saved. I believe that those who misunderstand me do not fully understand the difference between being redeemed from the Fall and being saved in the kingdom of heaven. Furthermore, receiving the promise of being saved is as good as being saved, although the time has not yet come where some who have the promise are saved.

Humble lurkers...

What is the difference to you of being redeemed and being saved?

I hope you don't mind a response to this question. I am sure Marc can answer with his thoughts, as well.

Ether 3:

11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?
12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

First, the brother of Jared believed in the words of Christ sufficiently to act upon them in the way he had been invited to do. Through that, he came to know that the words of Christ are true and can be trusted. Once God speaks, it is as if we already have the thing He has promised if we will believe and ask. Because the brother of Jared knew these things, he was redeemed from the fall. And, being redeemed from the fall means that he is brought back into the presence of the Lord.

We have been taught how to return to the presence of the Lord. When that happens we will have been redeemed from the fall. The Lord has offered it. We can ask, seek and knock. The timing will be the Lord's timing, but we must ask and seek and knock.

As for being saved, in section 76 we are taught:

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them

[Arenera]

But to reiterate again what has been misunderstood, I have not said that we must see Jesus Christ's face in order to be saved. I believe that those who misunderstand me do not fully understand the difference between being redeemed from the Fall and being saved in the kingdom of heaven. Furthermore, receiving the promise of being saved is as good as being saved, although the time has not yet come where some who have the promise are saved.

Humble lurkers...

What is the difference to you of being redeemed and being saved?

I hope you don't mind a response to this question. I am sure Marc can answer with his thoughts, as well.

Ether 3:

11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?
12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

First, the brother of Jared believed in the words of Christ sufficiently to act upon them in the way he had been invited to do. Through that, he came to know that the words of Christ are true and can be trusted. Once God speaks, it is as if we already have the thing He has promised if we will believe and ask. Because the brother of Jared knew these things, he was redeemed from the fall. And, being redeemed from the fall means that he is brought back into the presence of the Lord.

We have been taught how to return to the presence of the Lord. When that happens we will have been redeemed from the fall. The Lord has offered it. We can ask, seek and knock. The timing will be the Lord's timing, but we must ask and seek and knock.

As for being saved, in section 76 we are taught:

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them

Redeem, Redeemed, Redemption
See also Atone, Atonement; Death, Physical; Death, Spiritual; Fall of Adam and Eve; Jesus Christ; Salvation

To deliver, to purchase, or to ransom, such as to free a person from bondage by payment. Redemption refers to the Atonement of Jesus Christ and to deliverance from sin. Jesus’ Atonement redeems all mankind from physical death. Through His Atonement, those who have faith in Him and who repent are also redeemed from spiritual death.

I have redeemed thee, Isa. 44:22.

I will redeem them from death, Hosea 13:14 (Ps. 49:15).

We have redemption through the blood of Christ, Eph. 1:7, 14 (Heb. 9:11–15; 1 Pet. 1:18–19; Alma 5:21; Hel. 5:9–12).

The Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell, 2 Ne. 1:15.

Redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah, 2 Ne. 2:6–7, 26 (Mosiah 15:26–27; 26:26).

They did sing redeeming love, Alma 5:9 (Alma 5:26; 26:13).

The wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, Alma 11:40–41 (Alma 34:16; 42:13; Hel. 14:16–18).

Jesus Christ hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, Morm. 7:5–7.

The power of redemption comes on all who have no law, Moro. 8:22 (D&C 45:54).

They that believe not cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, D&C 29:44.

Little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world, D&C 29:46.

The Lord hath redeemed his people, D&C 84:99.

Joseph F. Smith saw in vision the redemption of the dead, D&C 138.

Adam and Eve rejoiced in their redemption, Moses 5:9–11.

[marc]

What is the difference to you of being redeemed and being saved?

2 Nephi 2:2 Nevertheless, Jacob, my firstborn in the wilderness, thou knowest the greatness of God; and he shall consecrate thine afflictions for thy gain.

3 Wherefore, thy soul shall be blessed, and thou shalt dwell safely with thy brother, Nephi; and thy days shall be spent in the service of thy God. Wherefore, I know that thou art redeemed, because of the righteousness of thy Redeemer; for thou hast beheld that in the fulness of time he cometh to bring salvation unto men.

Lehi declared to his son that he knew his son is "redeemed" because of the "Redeemer." He also knows that Jacob saw certain things because Lehi also saw certain things. Now notice that Lehi used the words redeemed and Redeemer? He did not use the title of Savior, although Jesus Christ is also our Savior.

The bro of Jared also saw things.

Ether 3:13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

Jesus Christ is defining redemption. It is to rend the veil. It is to be brought "back into my presence," which presence Adam and Eve once were...until they "fell." When they fell, they were cast out into the world, being no longer in His presence and thus all their posterity were also fallen.

19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

Lehi was redeemed. Nephi was also redeemed and so was Jacob and the bro of Jared. They were redeemed from the Fall, which Fall brings about our place on this dark side of the veil, or in other words, the mists of darkness described in Lehi's dream. This is why Nephi spoke so plainly in his final chapters with so much exhortation:

2 Nephi 32:4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

Regarding salvation, Nephi put it this way:

2 Nephi 9:23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

In D&C we read:

D&C 6:13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.

Throughout the sermon on the mount Jesus declared repeatedly who will be saved "in the kingdom of heaven." And to quote Joseph Smith:

Salvation is for a man to be saved from all his enemies; for until a man can triumph over death, he is not saved...History of the Church, 5:403

In summary, a person is finally saved after the resurrection and upon entering the celestial kingdom. A person is redeemed as soon as he/she rends the veil of unbelief like Lehi's son Jacob and the bro of Jared.

Oh, I almost forgot. A heathen king was converted and redeemed. His name was King Lamoni.

Alma 19:13 For as sure as thou livest, behold, I have seen my Redeemer...

[marc]

Here is the passage where we read about Nephi and Jacob (and Isaiah) having seen Jesus:

2 Nephi 11:2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him.

3 And my brother, Jacob, also has seen him as I have seen him...

Nephi knew that Isaiah "saw" the "Redeemer" just as both Nephi and Jacob "saw" the "Redeemer." Notice the word Savior is not used in this capacity although Jesus Christ is our Savior. Context is important. That's all I have for now. I hope everyone has a blessed evening.

[Contemplator]

Marc,

The scriptures you have shared relating to the topics of being saved as opposed to being redeemed are very helpful. And, the contrast between Savior and Redeemer is very helpful and worth much further consideration.

Thank you

[True]

I love your explanation. I’m wondering though, where calling and election fits into all of this?
If redemption is rending the veil and salvation happens upon entering the celestial kingdom, what is calling and election?

[sushi_chef]

"The Book of Mormon is a manual to receiving the Second Comforter",

says one of those second-comfortians.
http://peace-in-paradise.blogspot.jp/20 ... to-my.html

[marc]

I love your explanation. I’m wondering though, where calling and election fits into all of this?
If redemption is rending the veil and salvation happens upon entering the celestial kingdom, what is calling and election?

Receiving one's C&E is simply a "promise" that one will have eternal life. Joseph Smith described it as obtaining an "anchor to the soul." Thus one continues to navigate life with a perfect brightness of hope of having found rest in this life until he/she finds rest in heaven, which we read about in Moroni 7. You see, that hope implies that rest has not yet been found, but it is assurance that said rest is surely coming.

2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall

If we do not emulate Christ, then we have forgotten that we obtained a remission of our sins, having been born of fire and the Holy Ghost (v 9). Jesus Christ taught us how to to be like Him, to condescend and elevate weaker brothers and sisters by loving them and serving them and succoring them and teaching them and ministering to them.

Peter exhorts us to make our calling and election sure. This is the sealing power spoken of by Paul in other places. – Joseph Smith, TPJS, p. 149

It is a great gift it is to be sealed up by the Holy Spirit of promise and to find rest now until one rests with Him in heaven.

D&C 76:53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God

There's that "promise" which is sealed upon those who are "faithful," which is why I have spent so much time and effort to expound on the Lectures on Faith. But being "sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise" is not the same as receiving the Holy Ghost after baptism. We read about that in the preceding verses of section 76, which I just quoted:

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power...

Continuing with C&E:

When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses. – Joseph Smith TPJS, p. 150

Receiving the Second Comforter means receiving Jesus Christ, which happens upon rending the veil, or in other words, being redeemed from the Fall of Adam. Because of the trials of obedience and sacrifice, being made poor in spirit, the Lord will necessarily come to you to "comfort" you. But back to calling and election:

Now, there is some grand secret here, and keys to unlock the subject. Notwithstanding the apostle exhorts them to add to their faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, etc., yet he exhorts them to make their calling and election sure. And though they had heard an audible voice from heaven bearing testimony that Jesus was the Son of God, yet he says we have a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light shining in a dark place. Now, wherein could they have a more sure word of prophecy than to hear the voice of God saying, This is my beloved Son?

Now for the secret and grand key. Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their calling and election was made sure, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promised sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation. Then knowledge through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the grand key that unlocks the glories and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. – Joseph Smith, TPJS p. 298

1st key: Knowledge is the power of salvation. 2nd key: Make your calling and election sure. 3rd key: It is one thing to be on the mount and hear the excellent voice, etc., and another to hear the voice declare to you, You have a part and lot in that kingdom. – Joseph Smith, TPJS, p. 306