People claiming to have seen Christ

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diligently seeking
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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JohnnyL wrote: November 27th, 2017, 9:11 am
JaredBees wrote: November 20th, 2017, 6:39 am
Rand wrote: November 19th, 2017, 5:07 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 6th, 2017, 4:23 am Many years ago, the women in my household came home from a women's conference with a very interesting report.
Elder Bednar and his Wife were the speakers. They did not have a topic, they answered questions from the audience.
One question and answer has stuck in my mind. A young lady said she was trying to have a personal relationship
with Christ but felt that just wasn't happening. Elder Bednar's response amazing.
"You don't understand, the only relationship you can have with the Savior is to be in complete and utter awe
of who he is and what he has done."
This is a great quote! I would that I could know first hand of its accuracy... not doubting you, but third hand quotes are always of shaky reliability. But, that said, I love the teaching. Thanks for sharing. I wish all could accept that idea. But some want to hold onto what they currently believe.
Revelation 3
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

It is unfortunate if Elder Bednar. Actually said that. Contextually maybe there is more to it than what was said in this quote? Scriptures tell us to draw near unto Christ and he will draw near unto us. To the extent that we abide in him he can and will abide in and with us. Christ is not meant to be just a grand story or a beautiful picture on the wall to be emotional and rejoice over-- he is meant to: "for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit shall be in your hearts, and mine dangels round about you, to bear you up."


Lets start to hear his voice



D&C 93
Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;
I don't know. John 14 says the Father will abide with us in that type of situation, too. Does HF also live in your house, along with JC?


Let us here observe, that three things are necessary, in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation.

3 First, The idea that he actually exists.

4 Secondly, A correct idea of his character, perfections and attributes.

5 Thirdly, An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing, is according to his will.—For without an acquaintance with these three important facts, the faith of every rational being must be imperfect and unproductive; but with this understanding, it can become perfect and fruitful, abounding in righteousness unto the praise and glory of God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith

diligently seeking
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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JohnnyL wrote: November 27th, 2017, 9:09 am
JaredBees wrote: November 26th, 2017, 8:53 pm
Jonesy wrote: November 26th, 2017, 7:58 pm I think emphasis should be made on faith, not the knowing part. After all, it’s faith that saves, not knowledge. Knowledge is just the fruit of one’s faith.
Joseph said:
Knowledge is necessary to life and godliness. Woe unto you priests and divines who preach that knowledge is not necessary unto life and salvation. Take away Apostles, etc., take away knowledge, and you will find yourselves worthy of the damnation of hell. Knowledge is revelation. Hear, all ye brethren, this grand key: knowledge is the power of God unto salvation.”13

“Knowledge does away with darkness, suspense and doubt; for these cannot exist where knowledge is. … In knowledge there is power. God has more power than all other beings, because He has greater knowledge; and hence He knows how to subject all other beings to Him. He has power over all.”14

“As far as we degenerate from God, we descend to the devil and lose knowledge, and without knowledge we cannot be saved, and while our hearts are filled with evil, and we are studying evil, there is no room in our hearts for good, or studying good. Is not God good? Then you be good; if He is faithful, then you be faithful. Add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, and seek for every good thing [see 2 Peter 1:5].

“… A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth. Hence it needs revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God.”15

Joseph Smith taught the following in April 1843, later recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 130:18–19: “Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.”16

Joseph Smith taught the following in May 1843, later recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 131:6: “It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.”17

We obtain knowledge of eternal truths through diligent study and prayer.

George A. Smith, while serving in the First Presidency, reported: “Joseph Smith taught that every man and woman should seek the Lord for wisdom, that they might get knowledge from Him who is the fountain of knowledge; and the promises of the gospel, as revealed, were such as to authorize us to believe, that by taking this course we should gain the object of our pursuit.”18

The Prophet Joseph Smith wrote the following to a man who had recently joined the Church: “You remember the testimony which I bore in the name of the Lord Jesus, concerning the great work which He has brought forth in the last days. You know my manner of communication, how that in weakness and simplicity, I declared to you what the Lord had brought forth by the ministering of His holy angels to me for this generation. I pray that the Lord may enable you to treasure these things in your mind, for I know that His Spirit will bear testimony to all who seek diligently after knowledge from Him.”19

The Prophet Joseph Smith wrote the following to a man who wanted to learn more about the Church: “Study the Bible, and as many of our books as you can get; pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, have faith in the promises made to the fathers, and your mind will be guided to the truth.”20

“The things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. How much more dignified and noble are the thoughts of God, than the vain imaginations of the human heart! …

“… Let honesty, and sobriety, and candor, and solemnity, and virtue, and pureness, and meekness, and simplicity crown our heads in every place; and in fine, become as little children, without malice, guile or hypocrisy. And now, brethren, after your tribulations, if you do these things, and exercise fervent prayer and faith in the sight of God always, He shall give unto you knowledge by His Holy Spirit, yea by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost [see D&C 121:26].”21
Yes, and no.

First, faith leads to knowledge. With true faith, there is no difference in action.

Second, this is talking mostly about spiritual things.

Third, knowledge means understanding and testimony.

Fourth, do you really think that knowing a few facts is a major difference in the resurrection, where your brain will be able to permanently learn things sooooooooo much faster? It's like saying taking care of your hair now will give you better hair in the resurrection, or running faster now will give you a faster body in the resurrection... (If that's what it does mean, I sure feel sorry for the mentally handicapped.)

Fifth, "FAITH, hope, and charity"--not "KNOWLEDGE, KNOWLEDGE, and charity", or even "KNOWLEDGE, hope, and charity."

You would do well to read moroni 7 from start to finish with a new heart and eyes and learn what knowledge / experiances can spring forth through true meekness faith hope and charity understood / endowed upon us...

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Jonesy
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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JohnnyL wrote: November 27th, 2017, 9:09 am Yes, and no.

First, faith leads to knowledge. With true faith, there is no difference in action.

Second, this is talking mostly about spiritual things.

Third, knowledge means understanding and testimony.

Fourth, do you really think that knowing a few facts is a major difference in the resurrection, where your brain will be able to permanently learn things sooooooooo much faster? It's like saying taking care of your hair now will give you better hair in the resurrection, or running faster now will give you a faster body in the resurrection... (If that's what it does mean, I sure feel sorry for the mentally handicapped.)

Fifth, "FAITH, hope, and charity"--not "KNOWLEDGE, KNOWLEDGE, and charity", or even "KNOWLEDGE, hope, and charity."
Also, the scriptures differentiate between perfect knowledge and not a perfect knowledge. Revelation is not necessarily a perfect knowledge.

Here’s another point:
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
It doesn’t say “that they know thee”, it says “that they might know thee”; this underlies the importance of the process of faith. The perfect knowledge is the real fruit that faith leads up to. Again, it’s our faith that saves us, not knowledge.

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Jonesy
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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JaredBees wrote: November 27th, 2017, 9:38 am You would do well to read moroni 7 from start to finish with a new heart and eyes and learn what knowledge / experiances can spring forth through true meekness faith hope and charity understood / endowed upon us...
Jaredbees,

This doesn’t sound like a charitable nor humble response. I am willing and asking to receive clarification, but you are withholding. I’m starting to wonder if you can expound what you mean in your own words. You could actually have incorrect understanding of some things (myself as well), but you seem unwilling on your part to discuss. It helps with having your own commentary when you throw out a bunch of quotes. You put it out as if it was a message, but with no clarification on your part.

diligently seeking
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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Jonesy wrote: November 27th, 2017, 9:50 am
JaredBees wrote: November 27th, 2017, 9:38 am You would do well to read moroni 7 from start to finish with a new heart and eyes and learn what knowledge / experiances can spring forth through true meekness faith hope and charity understood / endowed upon us...
Jaredbees,

This doesn’t sound like a charitable nor humble response. I am willing and asking to receive clarification, but you are withholding. I’m starting to wonder if you can expound what you mean in your own words. You could actually have incorrect understanding of some things (myself as well), but you seem unwilling on your part to discuss. It helps with having your own commentary when you throw out a bunch of quotes. You put it out as if it was a message, but with no clarification on your part.
2nephi 32
Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

JohnnyL
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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JaredBees wrote: November 27th, 2017, 10:24 am
Jonesy wrote: November 27th, 2017, 9:50 am
JaredBees wrote: November 27th, 2017, 9:38 am You would do well to read moroni 7 from start to finish with a new heart and eyes and learn what knowledge / experiances can spring forth through true meekness faith hope and charity understood / endowed upon us...
Jaredbees,

This doesn’t sound like a charitable nor humble response. I am willing and asking to receive clarification, but you are withholding. I’m starting to wonder if you can expound what you mean in your own words. You could actually have incorrect understanding of some things (myself as well), but you seem unwilling on your part to discuss. It helps with having your own commentary when you throw out a bunch of quotes. You put it out as if it was a message, but with no clarification on your part.
2nephi 32
Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.
Ha ha, this reminded me of something that happened in marriage:
"Wife, what's wrong?"
"If you want to know what's wrong, pray about it. If you are righteous, HF will tell you."
Lol.

JohnnyL
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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President Benson:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... d?lang=eng
The great test of life is obedience to God. “We will prove them herewith,” said the Lord, “to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them” (Abr. 3:25).

The great task of life is to learn the will of the Lord and then do it.

The great commandment of life is to love the Lord.

“Come unto Christ,” exhorts Moroni in his closing testimony, “… and love God with all your might, mind and strength” (Moro. 10:32).

This, then, is the first and great commandment: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength” (Mark 12:30; see also Matt. 22:37; Deut. 6:5; Luke 10:27; Moro. 10:32; D&C 59:5).

It is the pure love of Christ, called charity, that the Book of Mormon testifies is the greatest of all—that never faileth, that endureth forever, that all men should have, and that without which they are nothing (see Moro. 7:44–47; 2 Ne. 26:30).

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren,” pleads Moroni, “pray unto the Father with all the energy of [your] heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him” (Moro. 7:48).
So "seeing God's face" is not the test, nor the task, nor the commandment of life. Hey look, even a Moroni 7 quote... ;)

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Mark
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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QUESTION 2: HOW CAN I DISTINGUISH BETWEEN TRUE AND COUNTERFEIT REVELATION?

"Personal revelation comes in many different ways and forms. It may vary from one person to another, and therefore it is difficult to set down rigid rules that cover every situation. But the Lord has not left us without guidance in this matter. Through the scriptures and the statements of his modern prophets, we find principles that can help us determine how to decide if revelation comes from the Lord or from another source. I would like to briefly outline five of those guidelines or principles to you today. There are others, but these have proven to be particularly helpful to me.

Principle 1: It is God who determines all aspects of revelation.

By definition, revelation is the communication of the mind and will of the Lord to his children. If you think about that for a moment, then you will understand that revelation is always unidirectional. It comes only from God to us. We may communicate back and forth with God in a two-way process, but revelation always comes in one direction. We never reveal anything to God.

Since all revelation comes from the Lord, then it is reasonable that he should set all of the parameters of that revelation. Those parameters include (a) to whom a revelation is given; (b) what content is given in the revelation; (c) when the revelation comes; and (d) in what form the revelation may be given. Sometimes, with the best of intentions, we inadvertently seek to tell the Lord how he should conduct his business. We may feel a particular urgency about a question and press the Lord for an answer by a certain deadline. Or we may strongly desire a particular kind of manifestation, such as one of the more dramatic forms of revelation, and be satisfied with nothing less. We may try to tell the Lord how to solve our problems or what answer we would like. But these are not our choices. All aspects of the revelation are determined by the Lord.

Elder Packer counseled against trying to force spiritual things:

It is not wise to wrestle with the revelations with such insistence as to demand immediate answers or blessings to your liking. You cannot force spiritual things. Such words as compel, coerce, constrain, pressure, demand, do not describe our privileges with the Spirit. . . . You can create a climate to foster growth . . . ; but you cannot force or compel. . . .

[And then comes this warning:] . . . Do not force it or you will open the way to be misled. [Packer, “Candle,” p. 53]

Note that he says we can create a climate that fosters spiritual growth. Through appropriate action we can influence the process of revelation. We can study and pray, on occasion we can add fasting to our prayers, we can importune the Lord with deep yearnings, we can keep sacred covenants—all of these will help create a climate that fosters spiritual growth. But we must remember that when all is done, it is still up to the Lord to determine when the revelation comes, how it is given, what is revealed, and to whom."

Gerald Lund

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Arenera
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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2 Nephi 11
2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him.

3 And my brother, Jacob, also has seen him as I have seen him; wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God hath said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all his words.

4 Behold, my soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him.
3 Nephi 7:15
15 And it came to pass that Nephi—having been visited by angels and also the voice of the Lord, therefore having seen angels, and being eye-witness, and having had power given unto him that he might know concerning the ministry of Christ, and also being eye-witness to their quick return from righteousness unto their wickedness and abominations

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marc
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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Knowing about Jesus Christ ≠ knowing Jesus Christ.

In other words, most people on Earth know about Jesus Christ either from having read scripture in full or part, or from others who have read scripture. Some might know about Jesus from someone who has parted the veil. Those who rend the veil obtain knowledge of Jesus Christ, having been in His presence. This is the knowledge that saves, for nobody can be saved without personally knowing WHO it is that has saved him. When one has seen His face and/or felt the prints and experienced an embrace, one KNOWS Jesus Christ. One no longer just knows about Him. Thus a man cannot be saved in ignorance, or in other words, without knowing Who it is that saved him.

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Jonesy
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marc wrote: November 27th, 2017, 3:07 pm Knowing about Jesus Christ ≠ knowing Jesus Christ.

In other words, most people on Earth know about Jesus Christ either from having read scripture in full or part, or from others who have read scripture. Some might know about Jesus from someone who has parted the veil. Those who rend the veil obtain knowledge of Jesus Christ, having been in His presence. This is the knowledge that saves, for nobody can be saved without personally knowing WHO it is that has saved him. When one has seen His face and/or felt the prints and experienced an embrace, one KNOWS Jesus Christ. One no longer just knows about Him. Thus a man cannot be saved in ignorance, or in other words, without knowing Who it is that saved him.
This may have been addressed, but does Satan’s knowledge save him and his minions? In the occult, knowledge seems to be the principle that is emphasized. In the scriptures, and from the prophets, faith is the principle emphasized.

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marc
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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Jonesy wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:22 pm
marc wrote: November 27th, 2017, 3:07 pm Knowing about Jesus Christ ≠ knowing Jesus Christ.

In other words, most people on Earth know about Jesus Christ either from having read scripture in full or part, or from others who have read scripture. Some might know about Jesus from someone who has parted the veil. Those who rend the veil obtain knowledge of Jesus Christ, having been in His presence. This is the knowledge that saves, for nobody can be saved without personally knowing WHO it is that has saved him. When one has seen His face and/or felt the prints and experienced an embrace, one KNOWS Jesus Christ. One no longer just knows about Him. Thus a man cannot be saved in ignorance, or in other words, without knowing Who it is that saved him.
This may have been addressed, but does Satan’s knowledge save him and his minions? In the occult, knowledge seems to be the principle that is emphasized. In the scriptures, and from the prophets, faith is the principle emphasized.
Their knowledge is what damned them, having not kept their first estate. They might as well have stood under the sun at noonday while denying there was light.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
D&C 29:36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;

38 And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell.

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Jonesy
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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marc wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:27 pm
Jonesy wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:22 pm
marc wrote: November 27th, 2017, 3:07 pm Knowing about Jesus Christ ≠ knowing Jesus Christ.

In other words, most people on Earth know about Jesus Christ either from having read scripture in full or part, or from others who have read scripture. Some might know about Jesus from someone who has parted the veil. Those who rend the veil obtain knowledge of Jesus Christ, having been in His presence. This is the knowledge that saves, for nobody can be saved without personally knowing WHO it is that has saved him. When one has seen His face and/or felt the prints and experienced an embrace, one KNOWS Jesus Christ. One no longer just knows about Him. Thus a man cannot be saved in ignorance, or in other words, without knowing Who it is that saved him.
This may have been addressed, but does Satan’s knowledge save him and his minions? In the occult, knowledge seems to be the principle that is emphasized. In the scriptures, and from the prophets, faith is the principle emphasized.
Their knowledge is what damned them, having not kept their first estate. They might as well have stood under the sun at noonday while denying there was light.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
D&C 29:36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;

38 And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell.
So, I guess what really sets Satan and us apart is our faith. Satan and his minions can’t obtain or act in faith. But we can have the same knowledge.

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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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Jonesy wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:33 pm So, I guess what really sets Satan and us apart is our faith. Satan and his minions can’t obtain or act in faith. But we can have the same knowledge.
That and having obtained the second estate.
Abraham 3:26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

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Jonesy
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marc wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:49 pm
Jonesy wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:33 pm So, I guess what really sets Satan and us apart is our faith. Satan and his minions can’t obtain or act in faith. But we can have the same knowledge.
That and having obtained the second estate.
Abraham 3:26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
Got it. Faith and obedience are the saving principles.

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marc
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Jonesy wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:53 pm Got it. Faith and obedience are the saving principles.
Precisely! :)

Well, and repentance for people like me who need Christ's grace daily when I fail to obey perfectly.

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Jonesy
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marc wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:58 pm
Jonesy wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:53 pm Got it. Faith and obedience are the saving principles.
Precisely! :)

Well, and repentance for people like me who need Christ's grace daily when I fail to obey perfectly.
So, to make a full circle, I guess it is faith that truly saves and our ability to exercise it. Perfect knowledge has no saving power, but is a merely the fruit of one’s faith.

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marc
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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Jonesy wrote: November 27th, 2017, 5:12 pm
marc wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:58 pm
Jonesy wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:53 pm Got it. Faith and obedience are the saving principles.
Precisely! :)

Well, and repentance for people like me who need Christ's grace daily when I fail to obey perfectly.
So, to make a full circle, I guess it is faith that truly saves and our ability to exercise it. Perfect knowledge has no saving power, but is a merely the fruit of one’s faith.
I'm going to go out on a limb and state that it is only Jesus Christ that saves. This comes as a result of knowledge, which is the fruit of faith. Exercising Faith is labor. Obtaining knowledge is rest. Thus entering into the rest of the Lord is no longer exercising faith.
Ether 3:19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
This does bring us full circle, which segues into a topic I created recently, which discusses Ether 4, which I consider to be the crux the entire Book of Mormon:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46383

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Jonesy
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

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marc wrote: November 27th, 2017, 5:43 pm
Jonesy wrote: November 27th, 2017, 5:12 pm
marc wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:58 pm
Jonesy wrote: November 27th, 2017, 4:53 pm Got it. Faith and obedience are the saving principles.
Precisely! :)

Well, and repentance for people like me who need Christ's grace daily when I fail to obey perfectly.
So, to make a full circle, I guess it is faith that truly saves and our ability to exercise it. Perfect knowledge has no saving power, but is a merely the fruit of one’s faith.
I'm going to go out on a limb and state that it is only Jesus Christ that saves. This comes as a result of knowledge, which is the fruit of faith. Exercising Faith is labor. Obtaining knowledge is rest. Thus entering into the rest of the Lord is no longer exercising faith.
Ether 3:19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
This does bring us full circle, which segues into a topic I created recently, which discusses Ether 4, which I consider to be the crux the entire Book of Mormon:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46383
Still, though, that is not what he was saved by. That’s not what it says. It sounds like it’s a result of his faith. Like this:
6 And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.
7 And I said: Lord, how is it done?
8 And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh; wherefore, go to, thy faith hath made thee whole.(Enos 1)
Among many other scriptures, this is what we are saved by:
26 And after that he came men also were saved by faith in his name; and by faith, they become the sons of God. And as surely as Christ liveth he spake these words unto our fathers, saying: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is good, in faith believing that ye shall receive, behold, it shall be done unto you.(Moroni 7)
I will admit, though, there is one verse of scripture that throws me off a little. I can’t quite figure it out, though. It appears to be a one-of-a-kind verse of scripture.

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marc
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

Post by marc »

To quote from Ether 4, which I discuss in the other thread:
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh...
Exercising faith is the beginning of the process of coming unto Christ. So you are not wrong. But there is more. In any case, I think you get the gist of it all. I don't begrudge you the manner in which you are processing all this information. The result, ultimately, is what matters.

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Jonesy
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

Post by Jonesy »

marc wrote: November 27th, 2017, 7:22 pm To quote from Ether 4, which I discuss in the other thread:
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh...
Exercising faith is the beginning of the process of coming unto Christ. So you are not wrong. But there is more. In any case, I think you get the gist of it all. I don't begrudge you the manner in which you are processing all this information. The result, ultimately, is what matters.
Yeah, I don’t mean to take away from the result.

I guess to sum it all up, I’m not sure I can agree that seeing Christ is required for salvation. There have been many before and many after that have been promised exaltation. It doesn’t say we have to exercise the faith he had. I think you highlighted the right part, but I’ll narrow it down even more. It says, “even as the brother of Jared did”. And what kind of faith ought we to strive to exercise?
9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?(Ether 3)
It’s not wrong that you can’t be saved in ignorance. But I think context matters. If you don’t know if you’ve been saved for certain, then you haven’t. But having that knowledge is a sign that you have been saved; but that’s not what saved you. It was one’s faith in Christ. Therefore, I will rather proclaim faith, faith, faith than knowledge, knowledge, knowledge. Knowledge is the good fruit, but you can’t bypass the journey. You must have and obtain faith unto salvation.
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the object of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.(1 Peter 1)

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Contemplator
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

Post by Contemplator »

marc wrote: November 27th, 2017, 3:07 pm Knowing about Jesus Christ ≠ knowing Jesus Christ.

In other words, most people on Earth know about Jesus Christ either from having read scripture in full or part, or from others who have read scripture. Some might know about Jesus from someone who has parted the veil. Those who rend the veil obtain knowledge of Jesus Christ, having been in His presence. This is the knowledge that saves, for nobody can be saved without personally knowing WHO it is that has saved him. When one has seen His face and/or felt the prints and experienced an embrace, one KNOWS Jesus Christ. One no longer just knows about Him. Thus a man cannot be saved in ignorance, or in other words, without knowing Who it is that saved him.
Certainly, faith is the first principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Nothing happens without faith. We must act in faith in order to repent, call upon God, grow, learn, progress, etc.

Joseph Smith taught three keys to understanding the first chapter of 2 Peter. Notice that in what Joseph said, faith comes first, but is not the end:
Contend earnestly for the like precious faith with the Apostle Peter, "and add to your faith virtue," knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, charity; "for if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." Another point, after having all these qualifications, he lays this injunction upon the people "to make your calling and election sure." He is emphatic upon this subject--after adding all this virtue, knowledge, etc., "Make your calling and election sure." What is the secret--the starting point? "According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness." How did he obtain all things? Through the knowledge of Him who hath called him. There could not anything be given, pertaining to life and godliness, without knowledge. Woe! woe! woe to Christendom!--especially the divines and priests if this be true.
According to Joseph, faith is first and necessary. But, we are to obtain "like precious faith with the Apostle Peter." And, that faith can be the starting point for knowledge of Him who calls us and saves us.

Joseph concluded this discourse with these three keys to understanding what Peter is teaching:
1st key: Knowledge is the power of salvation. 2nd key: Make your calling and election sure. 3rd key: It is one thing to be on the mount and hear the excellent voice, etc., and another to hear the voice declare to you, You have a part and lot in that kingdom. (May 21, 1843.) DHC 5:401-403.
I am particularly impressed by this third key. Peter, James and John stood on the mount and heard the voice of the Father testify of the Son. In other words, Peter, James and John had obtained knowledge ABOUT Jesus Christ and could act in faith. But, they needed to go on and obtain the voice of God declaring that they INDIVIDUALLY (Peter, James and John) had their part in the kingdom of God assured to them. According to this sermon by Joseph Smith, expounding on the teachings of Peter, it is the knowledge that I am saved by Jesus Christ that I must obtain. Obtaining this knowledge begins with faith. So, yes, we are saved by faith ... and by what follows after having faith.

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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

Post by sushi_chef »

so, that kowledge after faith exercised would be a more sure word of prophecy, would that be through holy spirit or appeared lords own voice??

sure word of prophecy lds
https://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?ei=UT ... y%20%20lds
:arrow:

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Jonesy
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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

Post by Jonesy »

And just to add, don’t conflate all knowledge with perfect knowledge. Knowledge of truth increases our faith; it is even a part of faith:
28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves--It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.(Alma 32)
So, the more knowledge you have of truth, the more faith you have to exercise until you can overcome the world. So, knowledge is necessary; even as a part of faith. Revelation is a necessary part of faith, which is knowledge of the truth by the Spirit. This is why we should add to our faith knowledge; because it can increase our faith. And maybe I’m wrong, but even with “the more sure word”, you are still in the faith zone. It’s still an assurance and not a perfect knowledge.

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Re: People claiming to have seen Christ

Post by sushi_chef »

so, would that mean kinda final knowledge of more sure word of prophecy after exercising faith enough comes through holy ghosts gifts/revelations?? not lords own??
or perhaps cannot tell exactly because of lacking of the experience of more sure word of prophecy revelation so on??
:arrow:

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