Denver’s crux: “The Last Time”

[jdt]

Jacob 5 is a great prophecy. How many times does the Lord and his laborers go out and work? In the whole account.
Okay now: Let's leave out the "Last time" for now, given the list of times of laborers, hopefully we can agree on this list of major prophets:
Adam
Enoch
Melchezidec
Abraham
Moses
Isaiah
Elijah
Lehi
Nephi
Abinidi
King Benjamin
Mosiah
John the Baptist
Christ
Peter
Mormon
Moroni

List the Prophets/Laborers per period of time they go out and work. Feel free to add more to the list.

I find it reasonable to claim that the last time would look a lot like former times of labor. You can claim that LDS Mormonism answers that with an unbroken chain of 16 Prophets. I would just point out that with the exception of Adam to Melchezidec, all the other labors show fragmentation (often having many smaller chains, but not long chains).

[Jesef]

I don't disagree about the rest of the chapter (Jacob 5), all the going down and time passing away in between, etc., preceding "the last time" - but that is really the point of this thread: the continuity of "the last time" and what "for the last time" really means. The fact that this phrase is repeated so many times in Joseph Smith's revelations, in reference to the work he and his fellow servants were commencing, as well as the common language with Jacob 5, "the vineyard", "pruning", "harvesting", etc. There's an obvious link here and Joseph Smith's revelations, presumably from the same Source (The Lord of the Vineyard), must be factored into the interpretation of Jacob 5. Also, any other prophecies or promises that indicate the last/final dispensation was to be continuous (i.e. no more general apostasy, loss of priesthood & keys, etc.). Specifically, the question of this thread is: does Denver's at-least-thrice-repeated teaching/precept that "the last time" should always be interpreted as "the most recent time" hold water?

CONFIRMATION BIAS WARNING! Confirmation bias is a blinding human cognitive bias in which we have the "tendency to search for, interpret, focus on and remember information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions. (Wikipedia)" The more heavily invested we are in a perception or belief (or paradigm) the blinder we tend to be to any information that challenges or does not support that perception/belief/paradigm. It is our tendency to rationalize away anything that doesn't support our deeply invested position. Hence, Latter-day Saints have a very difficult time processing, noticing, or even remembering information that undermines the Church, its Leaders, its history, and its claims - AND - Remnant/Snufferites have a very difficult time acknowledging anything that undermines Denver or his claims and teachings. It is very difficult to be objective and rational and unbiased, and much more so when you think your very salvation is at stake. This is why members of high-demand groups/cults tend to look ridiculous from the outside, like they've turned their brains off, like they're brainwashed. The only way to minimize confirmation bias is to be totally and consciously aware of it, to look for it in oneself. "Am I being intellectually honest and open-minded, am I open to actually being wrong?" You have to mentally disinvest, toss out your predisposed conclusions and try really, really hard to be objective - you have to honestly be willing to change your position in the light of truer/better information. If you ask yourself, "could I be wrong?" and it's just too painful to consider (that you might be wrong, totally wrong) - you've got a bad case of CB. ("I can't be wrong - look at all I've sacrificed for this! It has to be true! There's no turning back!" This is what many members of a UFO cult said after the aliens didn't show up...).

[jdt]

Jesef,
You take the Gospel very seriously. I appreciate that. I am not a prolific poster by any means, but I want you to know that regardless of any differences between our beliefs, I consider you a brother in Christ and consider us worse that we do not know each other in real life.

[e-eye2.0]

Correct. That is why I tell the Snufferites that their real problem is rejecting the teachings of Joseph Smith.

Lol, there was a time on this forum when you could be banned for saying "Snufferite".

Yeah that happened to me. I came back as the new and improved 2.0

[Jesef]

5th Passage with “last time”:

SECTION 120 [LE: 39, KE: 59]
Revelation given at Fayette, New York, 5 January 1831. There was a man by the name of James Covel who covenanted with the Lord that he would obey any commandment that the Lord would give through his servant Joseph, and accordingly he enquired of the Lord and he received these words as follows:

Hearken, and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the great I Am, even Jesus Christ, the light and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not, the same which came in the meridian of time unto my own and my own received me not. But to as many as received me gave I power to become my Sons, and even so will I give unto as many as receive me power to become my Sons.
And verily, verily I say unto you, He that receiveth my gospel receiveth me, and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me, and this is my gospel: repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, yea even the Comforter, which showeth all things and teacheth the peaceable things of the Kingdom.
And now behold I say unto you my servant James, I have looked upon thy works and I know thee, and now verily I say unto thee, Thine heart is right before me at this time. Behold I have bestowed great blessings upon thy head, nevertheless thou hast seen great sorrow for thou hast rejected me many times because of pride and the cause of the world. But behold the days of thy deliverance is come. Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on my name, and ye shall receive my spirit and a blessing so great as ye never have known. And if thou do this I have prepared thee for a greater work.
Thou shalt preach the fullness of my gospel which I have sent forth in these last days, the covenant which I have sent forth to recover my people which are of the house of Israel, and it shall come to pass that power shall rest upon thee. Thou shalt have great faith and I will be with thee and go before thy face. Thou art called to labor in my vineyard, and to build up my church, and to bring forth Zion that it may rejoice upon the hills and flourish.
Behold verily, verily I say unto thee, Thou art not called to go unto the eastern countries, but thou art called to go to the Ohio, and inasmuch as my people shall assemble themselves to the Ohio I have kept in store a blessing such as is not known among the children of men and it shall be poured forth upon their heads, and from thence men shall go forth into all nations.
Behold verily, verily I say unto you that the people in Ohio call upon me in much faith, believing I will stay my hand in judgment upon the nations, but I cannot deny my word. Wherefore lay to with your might and call forth laborers into my vineyard, that it may be pruned for the last time. And inasmuch as they do repent, and receive the fullness of my gospel, and become sanctified, I will stay mine hand in judgment.
Wherefore, go forth crying with a loud voice saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand! crying, Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the most high God. Go forth baptizing with water, preparing the way before my face for the time of my coming, for the time is at hand. The day nor the hour no man knoweth, but it surely shall come. And he that receiveth these things receiveth me, and they shall be gathered unto me in time and in eternity.
And again, it shall come to pass that on as many as ye shall baptize with water, ye shall lay your hands in the name of Christ and they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and shall be looking forth for the signs of my coming and shall know me. Behold I come quickly. Even so. Amen.

Several things are striking in this revelation to Joseph Smith which references “for the last time”:
1. The Lord refers to James as his servant (like Joseph Smith, so, again, fellow servants or "other servants" from Jacob 5).
2. He that receives the gospel (of repentance and baptism by water) receives the Lord, and then comes the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.
3. He is called to preach "the fulness of my [Christ's] gospel which I have sent forth (they have it! It's 1831) in these last (final) days" - and what does it include? - "the covenant which I have sent forth to recover my people what are of the house of Israel" (no need for a new covenant, Denver - not sure what you're doing this weekend?)
4. "labor in my vineyard" (Jacob 5 language again), "build up my church" (surely he is referring to the organization that people are being baptized into, not some amorphous disorganization)
5. pruned "for the last time" (Jacob 5 language again). Again, in context, it makes no sense to substitute "for the most recent time" given the immediate context of language, judgment, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, the time (of His coming) is at hand, signs of His coming, I come quickly, etc. That substitution literally make no sense at all - sorry, Denver. All the language is that of continuity, not discontinuity or failure.
6. He references repenting, and receiving the fullness of the gospel, and being sanctified (how? by the reception of the Holy Ghost).
7. And how about "on as many as ye shall baptize with water, ye shall lay your hands in the name of Christ and they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" - James wasn't an Apostle, he was a missionary - sounds a lot like our missionaries. And it sounds like they had the power/authority to lay on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Denver contradicts this teaching, saying only an apostle who has been in the Lord's literal physical presence can have power to give the Holy Ghost by hands on physical contact.

Score = 5 for "last time" meaning “final time”; 0 for “most recent time” (-5 for Snuffer)