Elder Holland Recants Missionary Story

[ajax]

OVERBLOWN, EXAGGERATED STORY GIVEN BY ELDER HOLLAND HAS NOW BEEN RECANTED
http://barerecord.blogspot.com/2017/08/ ... given.html

A podcast on the whole episode:
http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... way-dodos/

[harakim]

We had a deacon who always wore colored shirts. Our deacons' quorum leader told us he raised the dead on his mission, but he learned a valuable lesson because the bishop (or whoever) in the area said they needed to stop and get white shirts on first.

I now take church stories with a grain of salt.

[Alaris]

We had a deacon who always wore colored shirts. Our deacons' quorum leader told us he raised the dead on his mission, but he learned a valuable lesson because the bishop (or whoever) in the area said they needed to stop and get white shirts on first.

I now take church stories with a grain of salt.

Lol. That's funny. I wonder if the apostles wore white shirts. ;)

[Seek the Truth]

What is the problem exactly?

[Ezra]

What is the problem exactly?

Could be that a prophet of God didn't know truth from lie. And taught a lie to many many people.

[passionflower]

My mission stories are true. I ought to know, I was there. They happened to me. And they are the calibur of this story recanted by Elder Holland.
Some of them are recorded in my Storyhour thread.

[investigator]

What is the problem exactly?

The problem is that an Apostle of the Lord, the kind that "can not and will not lead us astray", in giving a talk about how the Holy Ghost is leading the missionary work, lead us astray by telling us things the Holy Ghost did that the Holy Ghost did not do. The Holy Ghost did none of the things stated because the event being described did not happen. Ironically the Holy Ghost did not tell the apostle speaking about the Holy Ghost that the events he is describing never did happen and were made up.

Elder Holland stated the following from the original Deseret News article leading us to believe the Holy Ghost miraculously orchestrated this sequence of events. The sequence of events that never happened.

“ . … The Holy Ghost influenced that younger son to serve a mission and be willing to accept a call to Southern California. … The Holy Ghost inspired one of my brethren in the Twelve, who was on the assignment desk that Friday, to trust his impression and assign that young man for service not a great distance from his native-born state. The Holy Ghost inspired that mission president to assign that young missionary to that district and that member unit. The Holy Ghost led those missionaries to that street, that day, that hour, with big brother sitting on the porch waiting, and, with Doberman Pinschers notwithstanding, the Holy Ghost prompted those to elders to stop, talk and in spite of their fear, to go back and present their message. …
“And, through the elders, the Holy Ghost taught repentance and brought true conversion to one coming back into the fold.”
Elder Holland said the young elder, without realizing it, gave the missionary speech of all time, when he said to his brother, “God has sent me here to invite you to come home.”

In reality the wayward son was already home when the missionary was called on his mission. Nothing happened in Southern California.
From the recantation article...

However, at the time his younger brother was called to serve as a missionary, the older brother had already returned to Idaho.

None of the miraculous events described in "The Missionary Speech of all Time" ever happened. Elder Holland can easily state he was just restating a story that was told to him, however, the statements of what the Holy Ghost did were his statements. I'm sure there are plenty of truly miraculous missionary stories. Why not just share the ones that actually happened?

Here is a link to the original article from web archive.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170706075 ... -says.html

[Z2100]

What is the problem exactly?

The problem is that an Apostle of the Lord, the kind that "can not and will not lead us astray", in giving a talk about how the Holy Ghost is leading the missionary work, lead us astray by telling us things the Holy Ghost did that the Holy Ghost did not do. The Holy Ghost did none of the things stated because the event being described did not happen. Ironically the Holy Ghost did not tell the apostle speaking about the Holy Ghost that the events he is describing never did happen and were made up.

Elder Holland stated the following from the original Deseret News article leading us to believe the Holy Ghost miraculously orchestrated this sequence of events. The sequence of events that never happened.

“ . … The Holy Ghost influenced that younger son to serve a mission and be willing to accept a call to Southern California. … The Holy Ghost inspired one of my brethren in the Twelve, who was on the assignment desk that Friday, to trust his impression and assign that young man for service not a great distance from his native-born state. The Holy Ghost inspired that mission president to assign that young missionary to that district and that member unit. The Holy Ghost led those missionaries to that street, that day, that hour, with big brother sitting on the porch waiting, and, with Doberman Pinschers notwithstanding, the Holy Ghost prompted those to elders to stop, talk and in spite of their fear, to go back and present their message. …
“And, through the elders, the Holy Ghost taught repentance and brought true conversion to one coming back into the fold.”
Elder Holland said the young elder, without realizing it, gave the missionary speech of all time, when he said to his brother, “God has sent me here to invite you to come home.”

In reality the wayward son was already home when the missionary was called on his mission. Nothing happened in Southern California.
From the recantation article...

However, at the time his younger brother was called to serve as a missionary, the older brother had already returned to Idaho.

None of the miraculous events described in "The Missionary Speech of all Time" ever happened. Elder Holland can easily state he was just restating a story that was told to him, however, the statements of what the Holy Ghost did were his statements. I'm sure there are plenty of truly miraculous missionary stories. Why not just share the ones that actually happened?

Here is a link to the original article from web archive.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170706075 ... -says.html

A great example of the err of man. Holland is pretty old, though.

[Matchmaker]

What happened to Elder Holland could happen to any one of us. He was deceived, in a manner of speaking. President Hinckley and others in the Church were deceived many times by the forger and murderer Mark Hofman. It humbles you and breaks you when it happens to you and everyone in your public sphere of influence knows you were deceived, especially when you are known to be intelligent, well-educated, active in the Church, and should have known better. You start to doubt yourself and wonder why you didn't hear or pay attention to the warnings of the Holy Spirit when they were given to you. It's a real test. Elder Holland is already a good man. This publicly humiliating and humbling experience will turn him into a great man, just like it did to President Hinckley.

[passionflower]

What is the problem exactly?

The problem is that an Apostle of the Lord, the kind that "can not and will not lead us astray", in giving a talk about how the Holy Ghost is leading the missionary work, lead us astray by telling us things the Holy Ghost did that the Holy Ghost did not do. The Holy Ghost did none of the things stated because the event being described did not happen. Ironically the Holy Ghost did not tell the apostle speaking about the Holy Ghost that the events he is describing never did happen and were made up.

Elder Holland stated the following from the original Deseret News article leading us to believe the Holy Ghost miraculously orchestrated this sequence of events. The sequence of events that never happened.

“ . … The Holy Ghost influenced that younger son to serve a mission and be willing to accept a call to Southern California. … The Holy Ghost inspired one of my brethren in the Twelve, who was on the assignment desk that Friday, to trust his impression and assign that young man for service not a great distance from his native-born state. The Holy Ghost inspired that mission president to assign that young missionary to that district and that member unit. The Holy Ghost led those missionaries to that street, that day, that hour, with big brother sitting on the porch waiting, and, with Doberman Pinschers notwithstanding, the Holy Ghost prompted those to elders to stop, talk and in spite of their fear, to go back and present their message. …
“And, through the elders, the Holy Ghost taught repentance and brought true conversion to one coming back into the fold.”
Elder Holland said the young elder, without realizing it, gave the missionary speech of all time, when he said to his brother, “God has sent me here to invite you to come home.”

In reality the wayward son was already home when the missionary was called on his mission. Nothing happened in Southern California.
From the recantation article...

However, at the time his younger brother was called to serve as a missionary, the older brother had already returned to Idaho.

None of the miraculous events described in "The Missionary Speech of all Time" ever happened. Elder Holland can easily state he was just restating a story that was told to him, however, the statements of what the Holy Ghost did were his statements. I'm sure there are plenty of truly miraculous missionary stories. Why not just share the ones that actually happened?

Here is a link to the original article from web archive.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170706075 ... -says.html

But the fact that Elder Holland believed something like this could happen says something about the amount of faith he has in missionary work today. I certainly believe something like this "could " have happened. When I first heard the story, I did not doubt it, and my saying so does not necessarily caste some bad reflection on my ability to discern, or teach the gospel, etc.
Elder Holland was mistaken, which is entirely different from purposely leading the church astray. My testimony of the church did not alter by his telling the story. I did not suddenly believe I did not need baptism anymore, Jesus wasn't the Christ, Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, and the church had no Priesthoood Keys, and/or I don't have to keep the commandments. THEREFORE, Elder Holland did not lead me astray, and I repeat, he was simply mistaken. And he admitted as much.

End of story.

[AI2.0]

What is the problem exactly?

The problem is that an Apostle of the Lord, the kind that "can not and will not lead us astray", in giving a talk about how the Holy Ghost is leading the missionary work, lead us astray by telling us things the Holy Ghost did that the Holy Ghost did not do. The Holy Ghost did none of the things stated because the event being described did not happen. Ironically the Holy Ghost did not tell the apostle speaking about the Holy Ghost that the events he is describing never did happen and were made up.

Elder Holland stated the following from the original Deseret News article leading us to believe the Holy Ghost miraculously orchestrated this sequence of events. The sequence of events that never happened.

“ . … The Holy Ghost influenced that younger son to serve a mission and be willing to accept a call to Southern California. … The Holy Ghost inspired one of my brethren in the Twelve, who was on the assignment desk that Friday, to trust his impression and assign that young man for service not a great distance from his native-born state. The Holy Ghost inspired that mission president to assign that young missionary to that district and that member unit. The Holy Ghost led those missionaries to that street, that day, that hour, with big brother sitting on the porch waiting, and, with Doberman Pinschers notwithstanding, the Holy Ghost prompted those to elders to stop, talk and in spite of their fear, to go back and present their message. …
“And, through the elders, the Holy Ghost taught repentance and brought true conversion to one coming back into the fold.”
Elder Holland said the young elder, without realizing it, gave the missionary speech of all time, when he said to his brother, “God has sent me here to invite you to come home.”

In reality the wayward son was already home when the missionary was called on his mission. Nothing happened in Southern California.
From the recantation article...

However, at the time his younger brother was called to serve as a missionary, the older brother had already returned to Idaho.

None of the miraculous events described in "The Missionary Speech of all Time" ever happened. Elder Holland can easily state he was just restating a story that was told to him, however, the statements of what the Holy Ghost did were his statements. I'm sure there are plenty of truly miraculous missionary stories. Why not just share the ones that actually happened?

Here is a link to the original article from web archive.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170706075 ... -says.html

Are you blaming Elder Holland? Someone told him about an event and kind, loving man that he is, he believed they were sincere. He then recounted the story as he heard it and was later contacted by the family, who told him that the story he'd been told was embellished. Highly embellished.

The only thing Elder Holland is guilty of is not being a huge skeptic and pessimist like I am. He trusts people and takes them at their word. He had no reason to think the story he'd been told was not true. I heard that story after he shared it and I thought it sounded like a very miraculous event--not that I didn't think it could have happened, but I wondered about the particulars, wondering if some could have been embellished (because that's how my mind works) so when I heard a week later, that the story was not true, I wasn't surprised. But that's me. I don't trust people, I don't trust their versions of events, I'm a skeptic and I know that you can't trust everyone to be as honest as you'd like them to be. Elder Holland is not like that, because of his kind, generous, trusting nature--and because he's filled with charity for his fellowmen.

And Matchmaker, I believe it's the same reason that Mark Hofmann was able to deceive so many church leaders with his Salamander Letter. For the record, I don't know whether Pres. Hinckley was actually deceived by him--he may have not been sure the letter was real or not, but he had no basis to suggest it was a hoax. He treated Mark Hofmann as if he were sincere, because he had no reason to treat him otherwise and once again, Pres. Hinckley sees the good in people, he was filled with Charity--he treated them as if they were kind, honorable and honest--he didn't look at his fellowmen and automatically distrust them. I do, I struggle to have charity for my fellowmen. When I first heard about the Salamander letter, I didn't trust it and now, I'm even worse. Now, I don't give any of this stuff the benefit of the doubt--it has to be tested first, for me to accept it.

Maybe that's why you are more trusting of people on this forum who make claims, you are probably a much more charitable person than I am. Having charity for others is wonderful, but you do need to take care as it can mean that you can be duped by the wicked and/or those struggling with their own mental demons.

[AI2.0]

What is the problem exactly?

Could be that a prophet of God didn't know truth from lie. And taught a lie to many many people.

If I could have, I would have given you a 'thumbs down' for this uncharitable comment. :-w

I do sometimes think it would be useful to have a 'thumbs down' as well as a 'thumbs up'.

[Crackers]

I agree completely, AI2.0. I think it would be insane to be in a position 24/7 in which you are always wondering if someone is trying to trip you up or catch in in a mistake. I imagine even church leaders have to take people and stories at face value sometimes in order to preserve their sanity. If they had to research every single thing ever presented to them, they wouldn't have time for their work. It truly doesn't bother me that this occurred, except for the possibilty that it could have been done to Elder Holland maliciously. He took a story given to him and taught correct principles from it. This is what Jesus did with parables. The fact that the story itself isn't true does not change the fact that the principles taught are.

[oneClimbs]

After hearing this story, how many do you think went astray? The story may have had bogus aspects but thise kinds of missionary experiences do happen. The Holy Spirit doesn't warn you of everything. This is a fact.

He heard a story, trusted the source and told it again. Should he have checked his sources better? He will now. He at least admitted his mistake which you have to respect.

No prob, Holland, thanks for clearing it up.

[investigator]

I agree completely, AI2.0. I think it would be insane to be in a position 24/7 in which you are always wondering if someone is trying to trip you up or catch in in a mistake.

Elder Holland has a large staff that could have cleared up the "facts" with one phone call. In the original article it is assumed that the participants in these miricles are known as this statement was made...

Elder Holland closed by relating a story — being careful to protect the privacy and anonymity of the participants — of a young man from southern Idaho.

If you are protecting someones identity, it is assumed that you know whose identity you are protecting. Additionally, this story has been circulating for years and has been shared by Kim B Clark of the Seventy in 2015. Plenty of time to make sure it was true. See Link about half way down the page.

http://hermanaalisonknight.blogspot.com ... to-go.html

So Elder Holland is not the only one to play fast and loose with the truthfulness of this story. I sincerely believe, especially when sharing stories which contain elements of spiritual miracles, one cannot embellish the truth. When we share something that is not true and then close, In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen, is that not taking the name of the Lord in vain.

I also believe it is a good thing that Elder Holland admitted his mistake. It emphasizes the need for us to not trust in the arm of the flesh. How hard is to ask..Lord, is that true?

[investigator]

The Holy Spirit doesn't warn you of everything. This is a fact.

Yes you are right, the Lord does not make all things known to us, Unless we ask .

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Most of us, however, are too much like Laman and Lemuel and do not ask...

7 And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive tree, and also concerning the Gentiles.

8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?

9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.

10 Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts?

11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.

[Crackers]

It seems that you are simply trying to besmirch Elder Holland. Again, why was it so wrong of him to simply trust that the story was legit? It was a mistake, but that doesn't mean he is not in tune with the Spirit. And I don't think any personal relationship is implied by saying he was seeking to preserve anonymity. Names are used when stories are told. I also don't think he has a staff of "fact checkers." Sheesh. Give the man a break.

[e-eye2.0]

Haha - the same people that claim members of the church put the prophets on a pedestal for a source of truth are now lambasting the prophets because they are not perfect and this should have never happened. Oh the hipocracy. Keep it coming, this is too rich.

[investigator]

Haha - the same people that claim members of the church put the prophets on a pedestal for a source of truth are now lambasting the prophets because they are not perfect and this should have never happened. Oh the hipocracy. Keep it coming, this is too rich.

Please, this "they are not perfect and this should have never happened" is exactly the reason members of the church should not "put the prophets on a pedestal".

O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel–said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church–that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls–applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints–said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall–that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds…”
TPJS p.237

You said keep it coming.

[SmallFarm]

Elder Holland has a prophetic calling in the Church. He is called as an apostle and if he is worthy he will receive inspiration and prophecy pertinent to his calling. We should sustain him in that calling, but be charitable when he falls short of that calling.
All callings are prophetic callings in the Church. We are called to serve and if we are worthy we will receive inspiration and prophecy pertinent to our calling. We should sustain each other and lift each other up in those callings, but be charitable when others fall short.
I agree we shouldn't put our leaders on a pedestal. To be idolized or judged.

[eddie]

What is the problem exactly?

Could be that a prophet of God didn't know truth from lie. And taught a lie to many many people.

If I could have, I would have given you a 'thumbs down' for this uncharitable comment. :-w

I do sometimes think it would be useful to have a 'thumbs down' as well as a 'thumbs up'.

We are seeing the sifting, and it isn't President Holland that built his house upon the sand. For the record, I am also referring to the uncharitable remark and totally agree with a thumbs down!

[Ezra]

What is the problem exactly?

Could be that a prophet of God didn't know truth from lie. And taught a lie to many many people.

If I could have, I would have given you a 'thumbs down' for this uncharitable comment. :-w

I do sometimes think it would be useful to have a 'thumbs down' as well as a 'thumbs up'.

Truth is harder to swallow then lies most of the time. A big reason is that truth makes us humble. We have to admit ours and others imperfections. Nothing to fear about that unless your holding onto a prideful thought.

Prophets are still men and Still err.

Why does that not sit so well with your pride? If you feel the need to thumbs down something it should be that. Pride.

[Z2100]

What happened to Elder Holland could happen to any one of us. He was deceived, in a manner of speaking. President Hinckley and others in the Church were deceived many times by the forger and murderer Mark Hofman. It humbles you and breaks you when it happens to you and everyone in your public sphere of influence knows you were deceived, especially when you are known to be intelligent, well-educated, active in the Church, and should have known better. You start to doubt yourself and wonder why you didn't hear or pay attention to the warnings of the Holy Spirit when they were given to you. It's a real test. Elder Holland is already a good man. This publicly humiliating and humbling experience will turn him into a great man, just like it did to President Hinckley.

Nicelly put. No one is perfect

[eddie]

What is the problem exactly?

Could be that a prophet of God didn't know truth from lie. And taught a lie to many many people.

If I could have, I would have given you a 'thumbs down' for this uncharitable comment. :-w

I do sometimes think it would be useful to have a 'thumbs down' as well as a 'thumbs up'.

Truth is harder to swallow then lies most of the time. A big reason is that truth makes us humble. We have to admit ours and others imperfections. Nothing to fear about that unless your holding onto a prideful thought.

Prophets are still men and Still err.

Why does that not sit so well with your pride? If you feel the need to thumbs down something it should be that. Pride.

Arguing even when wrong, is also prideful....

[Ezra]

Could be that a prophet of God didn't know truth from lie. And taught a lie to many many people.

If I could have, I would have given you a 'thumbs down' for this uncharitable comment. :-w

I do sometimes think it would be useful to have a 'thumbs down' as well as a 'thumbs up'.

Truth is harder to swallow then lies most of the time. A big reason is that truth makes us humble. We have to admit ours and others imperfections. Nothing to fear about that unless your holding onto a prideful thought.

Prophets are still men and Still err.

Why does that not sit so well with your pride? If you feel the need to thumbs down something it should be that. Pride.

Arguing even when wrong, is also prideful....

I guess that Means you have seen the light . Thumbs up.