Elder Holland Recants Missionary Story

[AI2.0]

I agree completely, AI2.0. I think it would be insane to be in a position 24/7 in which you are always wondering if someone is trying to trip you up or catch in in a mistake.

Elder Holland has a large staff that could have cleared up the "facts" with one phone call. In the original article it is assumed that the participants in these miricles are known as this statement was made...

Elder Holland closed by relating a story — being careful to protect the privacy and anonymity of the participants — of a young man from southern Idaho.

If you are protecting someones identity, it is assumed that you know whose identity you are protecting. Additionally, this story has been circulating for years and has been shared by Kim B Clark of the Seventy in 2015. Plenty of time to make sure it was true. See Link about half way down the page.

http://hermanaalisonknight.blogspot.com ... to-go.html

So Elder Holland is not the only one to play fast and loose with the truthfulness of this story. I sincerely believe, especially when sharing stories which contain elements of spiritual miracles, one cannot embellish the truth. When we share something that is not true and then close, In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen, is that not taking the name of the Lord in vain.

I also believe it is a good thing that Elder Holland admitted his mistake. It emphasizes the need for us to not trust in the arm of the flesh. How hard is to ask..Lord, is that true?

That's a pretty high standard you are insisting that Elder Holland adhere to--double checking everything that is told to him, even hiring staff to do the double checking and only then sharing information. So, since you think he needs to do that, what about yourself? Do you hold yourself to that standard? Can we here at LDSFF expect that any and all information you share on the forum has been checked and double checked by your staff? Since you take the stance that Elder Holland should have known better and should have checked, I'm certain you won't mind if we hold you to that standard as well.

I take issue with your statement that Elder Holland 'played fast and loose with the truthfulness of this story'. That's an incorrect assertion unless you are aware that he knew he was sharing a story which was false. So, please tell your fact checking staff to get to work and prove that Elder Holland KNEW he was sharing a story which was not true.

[AI2.0]

What is the problem exactly?

Could be that a prophet of God didn't know truth from lie. And taught a lie to many many people.

If I could have, I would have given you a 'thumbs down' for this uncharitable comment. :-w

I do sometimes think it would be useful to have a 'thumbs down' as well as a 'thumbs up'.

Truth is harder to swallow then lies most of the time. A big reason is that truth makes us humble. We have to admit ours and others imperfections. Nothing to fear about that unless your holding onto a prideful thought.

Prophets are still men and Still err.

Why does that not sit so well with your pride? If you feel the need to thumbs down something it should be that. Pride.

Uh no, I don't know what you think the thumbs up button is for, I assumed it was to give a message of support for the person's post--that's not a matter of pride and so, if I gave a thumbs down, it would be to give a message that I do not support the person's post. It's pretty simple, I'm not sure why you have the impression this has something to do with pride.

You said this; "Could be that a prophet of God didn't know a truth from lie."

I guess you can look at it this way; you condemn Elder Holland for being trusting that others tell the truth. You suggest that there's something wrong with him if he's lied to and doesn't know it. Do you think Elder Holland is different from us, that he has the spirit constantly whispering in his ear, saying 'she's lying, he's lying, they are lying' etc.? Is that what you think? I don't, I think they are like us, and at times, we may know when someone is lying to us, but other times we don't. I think that is a more reasonable assumption, since Heavenly Father isn't constantly protecting us from the poor choices of others.

Then, you compounded your comment with this; "And taught a lie to many many people".

This was the 'uncalled for' remark you made and the reason is this. Did he tell a story that turned out to be false? Yes, but it was unintentional and instead of extending compassion and mercy, you were cruel, digging in your heel by saying that he 'taught a lie to many many people.' You didn't have to join in with the condemning and fault finding, but apparently that's the kind of person you are.

And That's why your post would have gotten a 'thumbs down' from me.

[Silver Pie]

What is the problem exactly?

Could be that a prophet of God didn't know truth from lie. And taught a lie to many many people.

Why bring Joseph Smith into it.

:)) :ymapplause: Love it!

[Silver Pie]

Personally, I think Elder Holland made a mistake. He didn't fact check. I've made a helluva lot worse mistakes than that, so I won't be casting stones at him. In fact, I say kudos to him for admitting it was false.

[captainfearnot]

That's a pretty high standard you are insisting that Elder Holland adhere to--double checking everything that is told to him, even hiring staff to do the double checking and only then sharing information.

I agree that we probably shouldn't expect apostles to do the kind of fact checking we expect from professional journalists. People go to church to hear inspirational stories, not academically scrutinized research.

So, since you think he needs to do that, what about yourself? Do you hold yourself to that standard? Can we here at LDSFF expect that any and all information you share on the forum has been checked and double checked by your staff? Since you take the stance that Elder Holland should have known better and should have checked, I'm certain you won't mind if we hold you to that standard as well.

Here's where you lose me. Do you honestly not see why the bar would be higher for an apostle when it comes to this kind of thing? He has stewardship over all the other members of the church, for one thing. As contributors to the message board we don't have stewardship over each other, and the obligation that implies. We all know it's caveat emptor around here. But many, many members of the church believe they can trust the apostles implicitly. That trust should not be abused or neglected.

In the end no one was really harmed by this episode, except Holland himself. Maybe the Church he represents doesn't come off looking great. He was a bit careless with the pulpit, and has reaped what he sowed. His credibility has taken some damage, and will take some time to repair.

The only thing Elder Holland is guilty of is not being a huge skeptic and pessimist like I am. He trusts people and takes them at their word. He had no reason to think the story he'd been told was not true.

I think you're 100% wrong about him—at least I hope to goodness gracious you are—when it comes to spending the Church's money. Do you think if a contractor called Holland up and said he made a mistake, and the Church actually owed him $1,000,000 more for a construction project than he was paid, that Holland would trust him and take him at his word? No, I think he would be skeptical, and put his staff to work to check and double check the claim.

Holland is no dodo. He didn't get to where he is without learning that people embellish—and invent out of whole cloth—spiritual experiences all the time. He had every reason to be skeptical. That he was not in this case does not reflect well on him, but I don't think it's the catastrophe some are making it out to be. He messed up. Nobody got hurt. It is what it is.

[Ezra]

Why not? It's there job to teach "truth" which is the gospel they should fact check more then journalists. More then the average joe.

Part of the challenge and responsibility of leadership is to teach truth. When err is taught knowingly or unknowingly that sin is compounded on the head of the teacher for all those who where dooped. Unless of course they repent and correct that false teaching or lie.

That apology and repentance process is a wonderful way of also teaching others that humility and skill/process for repentance.

That opportunity should never be waisted.

[Ezra]

Could be that a prophet of God didn't know truth from lie. And taught a lie to many many people.

If I could have, I would have given you a 'thumbs down' for this uncharitable comment. :-w

I do sometimes think it would be useful to have a 'thumbs down' as well as a 'thumbs up'.

Truth is harder to swallow then lies most of the time. A big reason is that truth makes us humble. We have to admit ours and others imperfections. Nothing to fear about that unless your holding onto a prideful thought.

Prophets are still men and Still err.

Why does that not sit so well with your pride? If you feel the need to thumbs down something it should be that. Pride.

Uh no, I don't know what you think the thumbs up button is for, I assumed it was to give a message of support for the person's post--that's not a matter of pride and so, if I gave a thumbs down, it would be to give a message that I do not support the person's post. It's pretty simple, I'm not sure why you have the impression this has something to do with pride.

You said this; "Could be that a prophet of God didn't know a truth from lie."

I guess you can look at it this way; you condemn Elder Holland for being trusting that others tell the truth. You suggest that there's something wrong with him if he's lied to and doesn't know it. Do you think Elder Holland is different from us, that he has the spirit constantly whispering in his ear, saying 'she's lying, he's lying, they are lying' etc.? Is that what you think? I don't, I think they are like us, and at times, we may know when someone is lying to us, but other times we don't. I think that is a more reasonable assumption, since Heavenly Father isn't constantly protecting us from the poor choices of others.

Then, you compounded your comment with this; "And taught a lie to many many people".

This was the 'uncalled for' remark you made and the reason is this. Did he tell a story that turned out to be false? Yes, but it was unintentional and instead of extending compassion and mercy, you were cruel, digging in your heel by saying that he 'taught a lie to many many people.' You didn't have to join in with the condemning and fault finding, but apparently that's the kind of person you are.

And That's why your post would have gotten a 'thumbs down' from me.

I don't know if you all know this but (could) implies a possibility.
There is nothing wrong about pointing to a possible wrong and trying to learn from it/discuss it. There was a point to me bringing it up. Which is Every opportunity is a teaching opportunity for those in leadership. Men err. We are not perfect. Although I truly believe that in this life we can obtain it like our savior. But that takes practice and good leadership showing the way.

It's less painful to learn from others mistakes then our own. Even if the lesson learned of from a possible mistake.

[investigator]

Ai2.0 wrote the following. My response in red...

That's a pretty high standard you are insisting that Elder Holland adhere to--double checking everything that is told to him, even hiring staff to do the double checking and only then sharing information. So, since you think he needs to do that, what about yourself? Do you hold yourself to that standard? No, if I were to declare miracles in the name of the Lord, not only would I make sure they were true by speaking with the participants, I would not share their experiences without their permission. In fact, this is the standard I have adhered to in my past ecclesiastical responsibilities. Can we here at LDSFF expect that any and all information you share on the forum has been checked and double checked by your staff? Since you take the stance that Elder Holland should have known better and should have checked, I'm certain you won't mind if we hold you to that standard as well.

I give you my solemn oath that if I declare any miracles in the name of the Lord, you can hold me to that standard.

I take issue with your statement that Elder Holland 'played fast and loose with the truthfulness of this story'. That's an incorrect assertion unless you are aware that he knew he was sharing a story which was false. So, please tell your fact checking staff to get to work and prove that Elder Holland KNEW he was sharing a story which was not true.

I did not state that he KNEW the story was false, only that he should have done his due diligence in assuring that it was true when testifying that it was in the name of the Lord.

Trifle not with sacred things.

[AI2.0]

I guess it just comes down to the fact that some will not have compassion for Elder Holland, for their own reasons. They see an opportunity to criticize and they won't let it go, they won't even soften it--they are determined to make the most of an unfortunate situation, using it to take him down a peg or two. I don't feel it is right to take advantage of his error, but clearly some of you do.

Just so you know, that's the standard you hold Elder Holland to, and so you will be judged by that same standard.

[investigator]

I guess it just comes down to the fact that some will not have compassion for Elder Holland, for their own reasons. They see an opportunity to criticize and they won't let it go, they won't even soften it--they are determined to make the most of an unfortunate situation, using it to take him down a peg or two. I don't feel it is right to take advantage of his error, but clearly some of you do.

Just so you know, that's the standard you hold Elder Holland to, and so you will be judged by that same standard.

There are many LDS people through out the church who place the brethren on a pedestal. They think they are infallible, that they cannot and will not lead us astray. My initial post was responding to such a comment "so what's the problem exactly". That's all.

There is an old saying that goes like this...

“Catholics say the pope is infallible but don’t really believe it; Mormons say the prophet is fallible but don’t really believe it.

There is a lot of truth in that. People need to be made aware of the fact that they are idolatrous when they put their trust in the arm of the flesh and not in Christ Jesus.

I stated I was thankful Elder Holland admitted his mistake and corrected it. Hopefully we have all learned from it. I believe that everyone that is aware this situation will be much more careful when sharing miracles in the future. I love elder Holland and all of the brethren.

I fully expect to be held accountable for all of my actions. One final thought. I am not a "special witness", a prophet, a seer, or a revelator. I do not hold myself out as such. Those who do, have an increased level of accountability for the things that they say and do. That is a position that I do not envy. God bless them that they may rise up to that task.