Upwardthought blog on the Denver Snuffer movment;

[jdt]

Thomas, you should do a little more research. Joseph & Hurum were President & VP/AP, Sidney was 1stC, Amasa Lyman 2ndC, when J & H were killed. This was a legitimate succession crisis with Hyrum dead too. Lyman felt the FP was dissolved and supported the Twelve with BY as President leading. He went West with his 7 wives. Sidney did not have the right to assume leadership by himself as 1stC. With the Twelve intact and the FP shattered by half, it makes sense they would preside, also since JS had given them the keys of the kingdom. Lyman's support says A LOT too. Hence the vote/common-consent, including Lyman's vote. Your choosing a Denver interpretation of the history that doesn't fit all the evidence.

I did not know that about Lyman. Thanks for sharing.
I see the succession as a mess, it seems that everyone accepted Hyrum as next in line (in accordance with the D&C that allows the President to pick his successor). With both gone (and Samuel too within a month), and just given the whole situation, it must have been a distressing and chaotic, a very emotional time. I can't imagine how I would have reacted had I been there.
I will point out one thing, the "last charge meeting", "the keys of the kingdom", and "Council of Fifty" deserve a proper place in regards to the succession discussion.

[Thomas]

You keep bringing up Korihor in comparison with Snuffer. This makes me assume you either don't know what Korihor taught or you don't know what Snuffer teaches. Korihor taught that each man prospers by his genius and his strength. The LDS people live, right now by this principle that Korihor taught. Our leaders do not correct us from this error.

Snuffer on the other hand teaches the exact opposite, that we must use our genius and strength for the good of Zion that all may prosper together.

Where is your example in the Book of Mormon? Korihor fought against the leaders of the Church, Alma was the High Priest.

You and Denver are fighting against the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, of which Thomas Monson is the High Priest.

Are you resigned, excommunicated, or hiding in the Church?

My example from the Book of Mormon is Alma himself. Alma did not abuse his priesthood or at least if he did, he repented of it. Therefore he retained it. He did not need a new dispensing of the priesthood. King Noah and his priests inherited the rights to the priesthood from a righteous predecessor but they abused their priesthood and lost it. King Noah and his priests were the church.

There plenty more examples in the Book of Mormon. We can start with Lehi. who peached against the apostate church in Jerusalem. A church with a temple, baptisms, tithing, scriptures and religious authorities much like our own General Authorities who derived their authority from Moses. A true source

The people of Zeniff broke off the main body in Zarahemla, they were overzealous. Overzealous does fit Denver and the remnants.

The story of Lehi is the story of Joseph. Joseph started a new church with an organization from Christ.

Denver and the remnants have started a church, but certainly not anything like Christ's organization. Did you stand and say yes to Denver's covenant?

Yes, I accepted the covenant.

You know. Jesus Christ himself preached against the High Priest of the church. I guess a big problem among LDS is that they know what gets taught in church but they mostly don't know scriptures.

[shadow]

Jesef wrote: Thomas, you should do a little more research. Joseph & Hurum were President & VP/AP, Sidney was 1stC, Amasa Lyman 2ndC, when J & H were killed. This was a legitimate succession crisis with Hyrum dead too. Lyman felt the FP was dissolved and supported the Twelve with BY as President leading. He went West with his 7 wives. Sidney did not have the right to assume leadership by himself as 1stC. With the Twelve intact and the FP shattered by half, it makes sense they would preside, also since JS had given them the keys of the kingdom. Lyman's support says A LOT too. Hence the vote/common-consent, including Lyman's vote. Your choosing a Denver interpretation of the history that doesn't fit all the evidence.

I have done plenty of research and you still have not addressed the issue of the twelve not having exclusive right to the priesthood. But lets address the issue of common consent. Brigham had the Twelve vote him in as president and then Brigham chose two counselors to form a new first presidency. This violates the revelation from God given to Joseph Smith about how the First Presidency is to chosen. They are to be chosen by the body of the priesthood.

D&C 107: 22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

To this day common consent has been done away with. The sustaining vote has now been turned into a test of loyalty instead of a true vote. How do think God can honor that? Like I said, it was a coup.

The victors rewrite history. Rigdon's claim was just as good as Brigham's and there is some question as to whether the passing of keys to twelve was legit or not. Brigham's first reaction upon hearing Joseph died was wondering if he took the keys of the kingdom with him. There are several claims that Brigham rewrote much of the church history to suit the new order of things. Its hard to know what to trust.

But all that is besides the point because it is one thing to obtain keys and another to retain them.

The "body" referred to, if you study the section (which includes more damning evidence that Snuffer didn't "wrest the keys"), is the body is referring to the quorum. The first presidency constitutes a quorum. The president gets to choose his counselors which are also presidents. The second part is that of sustaining or also known as common consent- "upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church".

[Thomas]

Jesef wrote: Thomas, you should do a little more research. Joseph & Hurum were President & VP/AP, Sidney was 1stC, Amasa Lyman 2ndC, when J & H were killed. This was a legitimate succession crisis with Hyrum dead too. Lyman felt the FP was dissolved and supported the Twelve with BY as President leading. He went West with his 7 wives. Sidney did not have the right to assume leadership by himself as 1stC. With the Twelve intact and the FP shattered by half, it makes sense they would preside, also since JS had given them the keys of the kingdom. Lyman's support says A LOT too. Hence the vote/common-consent, including Lyman's vote. Your choosing a Denver interpretation of the history that doesn't fit all the evidence.

I have done plenty of research and you still have not addressed the issue of the twelve not having exclusive right to the priesthood. But lets address the issue of common consent. Brigham had the Twelve vote him in as president and then Brigham chose two counselors to form a new first presidency. This violates the revelation from God given to Joseph Smith about how the First Presidency is to chosen. They are to be chosen by the body of the priesthood.

D&C 107: 22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

To this day common consent has been done away with. The sustaining vote has now been turned into a test of loyalty instead of a true vote. How do think God can honor that? Like I said, it was a coup.

The victors rewrite history. Rigdon's claim was just as good as Brigham's and there is some question as to whether the passing of keys to twelve was legit or not. Brigham's first reaction upon hearing Joseph died was wondering if he took the keys of the kingdom with him. There are several claims that Brigham rewrote much of the church history to suit the new order of things. Its hard to know what to trust.

But all that is besides the point because it is one thing to obtain keys and another to retain them.

The "body" referred to, if you study the section (which includes more damning evidence that Snuffer didn't "wrest the keys"), is the body is referring to the quorum. The first presidency constitutes a quorum. The president gets to choose his counselors which are also presidents. The second part is that of sustaining or also known as common consent- "upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church".

Nice try but historical evidence doesn't back that up as we can see the body of the priesthood did choose until Brigham. How could the quorum choose themselves?

[Arenera]

Where is your example in the Book of Mormon? Korihor fought against the leaders of the Church, Alma was the High Priest.

You and Denver are fighting against the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, of which Thomas Monson is the High Priest.

Are you resigned, excommunicated, or hiding in the Church?

My example from the Book of Mormon is Alma himself. Alma did not abuse his priesthood or at least if he did, he repented of it. Therefore he retained it. He did not need a new dispensing of the priesthood. King Noah and his priests inherited the rights to the priesthood from a righteous predecessor but they abused their priesthood and lost it. King Noah and his priests were the church.

There plenty more examples in the Book of Mormon. We can start with Lehi. who peached against the apostate church in Jerusalem. A church with a temple, baptisms, tithing, scriptures and religious authorities much like our own General Authorities who derived their authority from Moses. A true source

The people of Zeniff broke off the main body in Zarahemla, they were overzealous. Overzealous does fit Denver and the remnants.

The story of Lehi is the story of Joseph. Joseph started a new church with an organization from Christ.

Denver and the remnants have started a church, but certainly not anything like Christ's organization. Did you stand and say yes to Denver's covenant?

Yes, I accepted the covenant.

You know. Jesus Christ himself preached against the High Priest of the church. I guess a big problem among LDS is that they know what gets taught in church but they mostly don't know scriptures.

As a true blue believer in Denver's Church, are you happy? Why do you want to harangue members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

[shadow]

Jesef wrote: Thomas, you should do a little more research. Joseph & Hurum were President & VP/AP, Sidney was 1stC, Amasa Lyman 2ndC, when J & H were killed. This was a legitimate succession crisis with Hyrum dead too. Lyman felt the FP was dissolved and supported the Twelve with BY as President leading. He went West with his 7 wives. Sidney did not have the right to assume leadership by himself as 1stC. With the Twelve intact and the FP shattered by half, it makes sense they would preside, also since JS had given them the keys of the kingdom. Lyman's support says A LOT too. Hence the vote/common-consent, including Lyman's vote. Your choosing a Denver interpretation of the history that doesn't fit all the evidence.

I have done plenty of research and you still have not addressed the issue of the twelve not having exclusive right to the priesthood. But lets address the issue of common consent. Brigham had the Twelve vote him in as president and then Brigham chose two counselors to form a new first presidency. This violates the revelation from God given to Joseph Smith about how the First Presidency is to chosen. They are to be chosen by the body of the priesthood.

D&C 107: 22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

To this day common consent has been done away with. The sustaining vote has now been turned into a test of loyalty instead of a true vote. How do think God can honor that? Like I said, it was a coup.

The victors rewrite history. Rigdon's claim was just as good as Brigham's and there is some question as to whether the passing of keys to twelve was legit or not. Brigham's first reaction upon hearing Joseph died was wondering if he took the keys of the kingdom with him. There are several claims that Brigham rewrote much of the church history to suit the new order of things. Its hard to know what to trust.

But all that is besides the point because it is one thing to obtain keys and another to retain them.

The "body" referred to, if you study the section (which includes more damning evidence that Snuffer didn't "wrest the keys"), is the body is referring to the quorum. The first presidency constitutes a quorum. The president gets to choose his counselors which are also presidents. The second part is that of sustaining or also known as common consent- "upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church".

Nice try but historical evidence doesn't back that up as we can see the body of the priesthood did choose until Brigham. How could the quorum choose themselves?

Which historical account? This one?-
37 And now, behold, I give unto you, Oliver Cowdery, and also unto David Whitmer, that you shall search out the Twelve, who shall have the desires of which I have spoken.

[Thomas]

Ezekiel 33. 6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.

God has warned me and told me this scripture applies to me. If I do not warn you and others, the sin is on my head.

[shadow]

Ezekiel 33. 6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.

God has warned me and told me this scripture applies to me. If I do not warn you and others, the sin is on my head.

You aught to be concerned with your own waywardness. You're no watchman, that's for darned sure.

[Arenera]

Ezekiel 33. 6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.

God has warned me and told me this scripture applies to me. If I do not warn you and others, the sin is on my head.

Both sides are trying to warn the other...boomerang!

57571A0D-2F8C-479B-9386-88153232CD86-7641-00000F8B06C68715.jpeg (14.28 KiB) Viewed 860 times

[ajax]

I'm guessing "the humble followers of Christ" will be plucked from among all peoples, including LDS and remnant.

The contenders be damned.

[Jesef]

Jesef wrote: Thomas, you should do a little more research. Joseph & Hurum were President & VP/AP, Sidney was 1stC, Amasa Lyman 2ndC, when J & H were killed. This was a legitimate succession crisis with Hyrum dead too. Lyman felt the FP was dissolved and supported the Twelve with BY as President leading. He went West with his 7 wives. Sidney did not have the right to assume leadership by himself as 1stC. With the Twelve intact and the FP shattered by half, it makes sense they would preside, also since JS had given them the keys of the kingdom. Lyman's support says A LOT too. Hence the vote/common-consent, including Lyman's vote. Your choosing a Denver interpretation of the history that doesn't fit all the evidence.

I have done plenty of research and you still have not addressed the issue of the twelve not having exclusive right to the priesthood. But lets address the issue of common consent. Brigham had the Twelve vote him in as president and then Brigham chose two counselors to form a new first presidency. This violates the revelation from God given to Joseph Smith about how the First Presidency is to chosen. They are to be chosen by the body of the priesthood.

D&C 107: 22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

To this day common consent has been done away with. The sustaining vote has now been turned into a test of loyalty instead of a true vote. How do think God can honor that? Like I said, it was a coup.

The victors rewrite history. Rigdon's claim was just as good as Brigham's and there is some question as to whether the passing of keys to twelve was legit or not. Brigham's first reaction upon hearing Joseph died was wondering if he took the keys of the kingdom with him. There are several claims that Brigham rewrote much of the church history to suit the new order of things. Its hard to know what to trust.

But all that is besides the point because it is one thing to obtain keys and another to retain them.

It's a possible interpretation. I don't think you're trying to make a case for Sidney - very few at the time bought his bid - not Amasa Lyman (2nd Counselor in the FP) and none of the Twelve. As far as "chosen by the body" - the body chose the Twelve to lead them, pretty decisively it seems. FP reorganization is a different matter, for which you also lack evidence and the historical evidence supports BY.

9 of the 12 (including BY himself) in 1844 favored/voted for the Twelve to lead the Church as the next presiding quorum. But none of JS's family followed BY & 12 West (Emma, Lucy Mack, William, etc. - NONE followed BY):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_of_the_Twelve
1. Brigham Young - obviously
2. Heber C. Kimball - followed BY
3. Orson Hyde - followed BY
4. Parley P. Pratt - followed BY
5. William Smith - Joseph's & Hyrum's younger brother, initially followed BY & 12 but got ex'd in 1845 by them, check out his "exit letter" - did NOT like BY and decried "spiritual wifery", not unlike the Laws and the Nauvoo Expositor which got JS & HS killed - http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL ... 5.htm#1029 - starts with "A Proclamation".
6. Orson Pratt - followed BY
7. John E. Page - After 1844, Page joined with the Strangite and Brewsterite. Page went on to be an apostle in the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) or "Hedrickite" church.
8. John Taylor - followed BY
9. Wilford Woodruff - followed BY
10. George A. Smith - followed BY
11. Willard Richards - followed BY
12. Lyman Wight - Wight broke with all sects in 1844. He was ordained president of his own church, known as the Wightites. However, he later sided with the claims of William Smith and eventually of Joseph Smith III and the RLDS Church.
13. Amasa Lyman (2nd Counselor in FP) - followed BY

History redaction is hard to prove and is akin to a conspiracy theory. Can't prove you wrong but there's no evidence you're correct either. The historical evidence is being questioned and discredited with no real proof.

[ajax]

https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtop ... 87#p802665

[Jesef]

Can something really be called a "coup d'etat" if that person or body has the most legitimate claim on the board? The Twelve had the numbers (at least 9/13), the quorum equal in authority & power (per D&C 107, the 1835 D&C version), the keys, support from 1 of the 2 surviving FP members, and then the common consent vote. Sidney was unable to persuade the body. How is that a coup?

[ajax]

Ask the poscaster. He lays out his case. Fascinating subject though eh?

[Jesef]

I've always found David Whitmer's "Address to All Believers in the Book of Mormon" fascinating. And this "exit letter" by William Smith is almost as interesting:
5. William Smith - Joseph's & Hyrum's younger brother, initially followed BY & 12 but got ex'd in 1845 by them, check out his "exit letter" - did NOT like BY and decried "spiritual wifery", not unlike the Laws and the Nauvoo Expositor which got JS & HS killed - http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL ... 5.htm#1029 - starts with "A Proclamation".

[ajax]

Whitmer's "Address" is very interesting.

Haven't read W Smiths exit letter. Will have to check it out this weekend.

[underdog]

Can something really be called a "coup d'etat" if that person or body has the most legitimate claim on the board? The Twelve had the numbers (at least 9/13), the quorum equal in authority & power (per D&C 107, the 1835 D&C version), the keys, support from 1 of the 2 surviving FP members, and then the common consent vote. Sidney was unable to persuade the body. How is that a coup?

Jesef,

Do you hear what you're arguing? The insanity? The gross unrighteous Dominion?

You are attempting to claim your side is right because you have the badge. That is so evil and disgusting, I cannot believe you are trying to make that argument.

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood. Those are the Lord's words. You know that. You should know better.

[Alaris]

My example from the Book of Mormon is Alma himself. Alma did not abuse his priesthood or at least if he did, he repented of it. Therefore he retained it. He did not need a new dispensing of the priesthood. King Noah and his priests inherited the rights to the priesthood from a righteous predecessor but they abused their priesthood and lost it. King Noah and his priests were the church.

There plenty more examples in the Book of Mormon. We can start with Lehi. who peached against the apostate church in Jerusalem. A church with a temple, baptisms, tithing, scriptures and religious authorities much like our own General Authorities who derived their authority from Moses. A true source

The people of Zeniff broke off the main body in Zarahemla, they were overzealous. Overzealous does fit Denver and the remnants.

The story of Lehi is the story of Joseph. Joseph started a new church with an organization from Christ.

Denver and the remnants have started a church, but certainly not anything like Christ's organization. Did you stand and say yes to Denver's covenant?

Yes, I accepted the covenant.

You know. Jesus Christ himself preached against the High Priest of the church. I guess a big problem among LDS is that they know what gets taught in church but they mostly don't know scriptures.

As a true blue believer in Denver's Church, are you happy? Why do you want to harangue members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Like any lie it ceases to exist the moment people stop blowing hot air into it. And lies by their very nature are in direct opposition to truth. Notice the snufferites don't come here in the spirit of love and invitation but have to attack the Truth and the true church to make their lies float. They come in the spirit of contention and antagonism. The Davidic Servant won't need to tear down any church.

[Jesef]

That's not a fair assessment of what I said, underdog - check your confirmation bias filter, reread it, and please refrain from accusing. Joseph was the one who established the keys & priesthood hierarchy and presiding authority structure. You need to go back and apply the same standards to Joseph that you're applying to Brigham.

[underdog]

That's not a fair assessment of what I said, underdog - check your confirmation bias filter, reread it, and please refrain from accusing. Joseph was the one who established the keys & priesthood hierarchy and presiding authority structure. You need to go back and apply the same standards to Joseph that you're applying to Brigham.

Jesef,

The moment you attempt to convince others to follow you or to listen to you by virtue of keys/ Priesthood you hold, you are in the power of Satan. You have enlisted on the devil's side for he is the one who tries to control men and exercise dominion upon them.

The question of who has the keys is totally irrelevant. This truth you apparently do not comprehend.

The Lord couldn't be more clear in DC 121.

What I have said is a 100% honest assessment and I'm willing to be judged by God by the sane judgment. I do not accuse. I testify that Christ is love and patience and long suffering and not unrighteous dominion. He condemns the argument you are making.

In His words, you are "fighting against God."

I like you. I'm trying to help you see the truths taught in DC 121.

[Arenera]

I've always found David Whitmer's "Address to All Believers in the Book of Mormon" fascinating. And this "exit letter" by William Smith is almost as interesting:
5. William Smith - Joseph's & Hyrum's younger brother, initially followed BY & 12 but got ex'd in 1845 by them, check out his "exit letter" - did NOT like BY and decried "spiritual wifery", not unlike the Laws and the Nauvoo Expositor which got JS & HS killed - http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL ... 5.htm#1029 - starts with "A Proclamation".

He didn't like Rigdon and said under Brigham the movement would only last 5 to 10 years. He believed in Royal Descent.

He was wrong.

[Arenera]

That's not a fair assessment of what I said, underdog - check your confirmation bias filter, reread it, and please refrain from accusing. Joseph was the one who established the keys & priesthood hierarchy and presiding authority structure. You need to go back and apply the same standards to Joseph that you're applying to Brigham.

Jesef,

The moment you attempt to convince others to follow you or to listen to you by virtue of keys/ Priesthood you hold, you are in the power of Satan. You have enlisted on the devil's side for he is the one who tries to control men and exercise dominion upon them.

The question of who has the keys is totally irrelevant. This truth you apparently do not comprehend.

The Lord couldn't be more clear in DC 121.

What I have said is a 100% honest assessment and I'm willing to be judged by God by the sane judgment. I do not accuse. I testify that Christ is love and patience and long suffering and not unrighteous dominion. He condemns the argument you are making.

In His words, you are "fighting against God."

I like you. I'm trying to help you see the truths taught in DC 121.

But you are wrong underdog, and grossly misled.

[underdog]

That's not a fair assessment of what I said, underdog - check your confirmation bias filter, reread it, and please refrain from accusing. Joseph was the one who established the keys & priesthood hierarchy and presiding authority structure. You need to go back and apply the same standards to Joseph that you're applying to Brigham.

Jesef,

The moment you attempt to convince others to follow you or to listen to you by virtue of keys/ Priesthood you hold, you are in the power of Satan. You have enlisted on the devil's side for he is the one who tries to control men and exercise dominion upon them.

The question of who has the keys is totally irrelevant. This truth you apparently do not comprehend.

The Lord couldn't be more clear in DC 121.

What I have said is a 100% honest assessment and I'm willing to be judged by God by the sane judgment. I do not accuse. I testify that Christ is love and patience and long suffering and not unrighteous dominion. He condemns the argument you are making.

In His words, you are "fighting against God."

I like you. I'm trying to help you see the truths taught in DC 121.

But you are wrong underdog, and grossly misled.

Arenera, no offense but you normally offer nothing of substance. You don't offer scripture basis nor reason just hollow assertions.

Jesef at least offers well thought out and reasoned comments with good insight into scriptures. I agree with a lot of what he says and have had many of the same questions and concerns.

You don't attempt to persuade but instead just keep coming with personal attacks.

That's not pleasant nor productive.

Nevertheless, I appreciate you've taken a position. At least you aren't lukewarm.

[Arenera]

That's not a fair assessment of what I said, underdog - check your confirmation bias filter, reread it, and please refrain from accusing. Joseph was the one who established the keys & priesthood hierarchy and presiding authority structure. You need to go back and apply the same standards to Joseph that you're applying to Brigham.

Jesef,

The moment you attempt to convince others to follow you or to listen to you by virtue of keys/ Priesthood you hold, you are in the power of Satan. You have enlisted on the devil's side for he is the one who tries to control men and exercise dominion upon them.

The question of who has the keys is totally irrelevant. This truth you apparently do not comprehend.

The Lord couldn't be more clear in DC 121.

What I have said is a 100% honest assessment and I'm willing to be judged by God by the sane judgment. I do not accuse. I testify that Christ is love and patience and long suffering and not unrighteous dominion. He condemns the argument you are making.

In His words, you are "fighting against God."

I like you. I'm trying to help you see the truths taught in DC 121.

But you are wrong underdog, and grossly misled.

Arenera, no offense but you normally offer nothing of substance. You don't offer scripture basis nor reason just hollow assertions.

Jesef at least offers well thought out and reasoned comments with good insight into scriptures. I agree with a lot of what he says and have had many of the same questions and concerns.

You don't attempt to persuade but instead just keep coming with personal attacks.

That's not pleasant nor productive.

Nevertheless, I appreciate you've taken a position. At least you aren't lukewarm.

Let me give you some logic of substance:

William Smith said the movement of Brigham Young would only last 5 or 10 years. He was wrong.

You are wrong too. If Christ didn't want Brigham Young, Christ could have supported Sidney Rigdon, young Joseph Smith Jr., or William Smith. But Christ didn't.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has continued to roll forward and grow. You support the adversary who thought that killing Joseph Smith would stop the Dispensation of Fulness of Times. Both of you are wrong.

You can conjure up any kind of false logic you want, it won't work. How do I know, how do many of us know? We have testimonies of a Living Prohet, which means that Christ sustains the Church and the Leaders we have today.

That is real substance underdog.

[Thomas]

Laman and Lemeul had a testimony as well. Here it is:

22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us.

Do you suppose the people of Jerusalem were all just so stupid that they couldn't see the obvious? Only two families listened to Lehi and decided to repent and some of them not willingly. Why do you suppose that is? It is because they thought they were righteous. These were the tithing paying, temple attending, religious people. These were the ones doing their home teaching and attending their meetings on a regular basis. God's chosen people who had leaders, called of God. Why would they listen to some nobody when they had leaders to guide them.

This is how it happens, every time. Very few ever heed the true prophets. The same story happens over and over throughout the scriptures. It is happening now. Will you be among the few that heed the true prophet or will you be like Laman and lemeul, having a testimony of how righteous you, your fellow church members and leaders are?