The Testimony and Conversion of Alma the younger

[drtanner]

Consider the experience of Alma the younger. He had a miraculous conversion after being struck dumb after feeling the power and listening to the chastening of an angel. Compare this experience to what he teaches the people of Zarahemla about how he learned the truths of the gospel. See the contrast in the scriptures below. Does this say anything about the process of a obtaining a testimony vs conversion? Why does he make the distinction? Is there a difference in these two experiences or is he referring to the same experience? Is there a modern day application?

Mosiah 27:24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

Alma 5:46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.

[marc]

This "conversion" of Alma the younger happened on account of him seeking Jesus Christ, crying out to Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ as his final resort. This is the same definition of redemption explained to the bro of Jared by Jesus Christ personally. Had it not been for the prayer of his father, Alma, who could ask and receive because of his own relationship with the Lord, the conversion of Alma the younger might not have been so dramatic. The BoM reveals the pattern, though. In any case, in v. 25, Alma was counseled not to "marvel," which is a natural tendency of the fallen man who has not rent the "veil of unbelief." One who truly and completely believes does not need to marvel, but it seems like a natural indicator of how weak we are especially who are so unbelieving as to fight against God. And so Alma the younger took the time to process his experience, even fasting and praying to understand his experience and gaining that knowledge by the Holy Spirit, which is the spirit of revelation.

The modern day application for me or the key takeaway here is that Alma the younger appealed to Jesus and only Jesus.

[drtanner]

This "conversion" of Alma the younger happened on account of him seeking Jesus Christ, crying out to Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ as his final resort. This is the same definition of redemption explained to the bro of Jared by Jesus Christ personally. Had it not been for the prayer of his father, Alma, who could ask and receive because of his own relationship with the Lord, the conversion of Alma the younger might not have been so dramatic. The BoM reveals the pattern, though. In any case, in v. 25, Alma was counseled not to "marvel," which is a natural tendency of the fallen man who has not rent the "veil of unbelief." One who truly and completely believes does not need to marvel, but it seems like a natural indicator of how weak we are especially who are so unbelieving as to fight against God. And so Alma the younger took the time to process his experience, even fasting and praying to understand his experience and gaining that knowledge by the Holy Spirit, which is the spirit of revelation.

The modern day application for me or the key takeaway here is that Alma the younger appealed to Jesus and only Jesus.

Great thoughts Marc, thank you. So your take is that he was fasting and praying to understand his own conversion experience? I've have also wondered how much role a parents own relationship with the savior plays in heavenly influences intervening with a struggling child that helps them see there true status before God.

[Rose Garden]

The angel appearing to Alma seems to me like a wake up call, a big bucket of cold water in the face saying, you're on the wrong path--turn around! He listened and did turn around, but that just meant that he was walking on the right path at that point. I would imagine he had a lot of steps to retrace, too.

[marc]

The angel was a tender mercy to Alma Sr. on behalf of his son. Had it not been for Alma Sr's relationship with the Lord, Alma jr would not have been so fortunate. That is what I understand about those who have the gift to ask and to receive. But the angel was indeed that wake up call for Alma jr. I believe his fasting and praying was what precipitated his conversion. It is the Holy Spirit that converts. And that is what enabled Alma to understand the process of his redemption. But Alma jr. did not deserve to be so fortunate. Parents' prayers can have an impact on their children, but it just so happened that the Lord had respect to Alma Sr's prayers because of the relationship Alma Sr. had with the Lord.

[Silver]

The angel appearing to Alma seems to me like a wake up call, a big bucket of cold water in the face saying, you're on the wrong path--turn around! He listened and did turn around, but that just meant that he was walking on the right path at that point. I would imagine he had a lot of steps to retrace, too.

That's right. Faith precedes the miracle, as President Kimball taught, but a miracle is never a guarantee of salvation. Anecdotally, I've seen a miraculous healing take place and yet the member, an elderly sister, still left the Church within a very short time.

There are notable differences between Alma the Younger's experience and that of Enos. Enos entered his "sacred grove" pondering on the words of his father, the great prophet Jacob, who had seen the Lord. Yet Enos still felt a critical need to seek salvation for his soul.

Enos 1:
4 And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.

5 And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.

6 And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.

7 And I said: Lord, how is it done?

8 And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh; wherefore, go to, thy faith hath made thee whole.

Oh, to be made whole and to stay that way. Seeking the Lord in forests and mountains seems to be a common theme in the scriptures.

[oneClimbs]

Consider the experience of Alma the younger. He had a miraculous conversion after being struck dumb after feeling the power and listening to the chastening of an angel. Compare this experience to what he teaches the people of Zarahemla about how he learned the truths of the gospel. See the contrast in the scriptures below. Does this say anything about the process of a obtaining a testimony vs conversion? Why does he make the distinction? Is there a difference in these two experiences or is he referring to the same experience? Is there a modern day application?

Mosiah 27:24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

Alma 5:46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.

I would say that the first experience is referring to his personal redemption. In the second case, the things he was fasting and praying to know about were "the things which have been spoken by our fathers concerning the things which are to come." (Alma 5:44) In the first case he experiences contact with God and is forgiven, in the second case, he is pursuing knowledge about future events.

What you have here are two different pursuits or objectives. One is personal redemption, the other pertains to the aquisition of specific knowledge.

[brianj]

The modern day application is that someone who has a testimony, has become converted, really tries to be worthy, and is willing to study, fast, and pray can gain a testimony of more specific parts of the gospel as well as receive personal revelation of things to come.

When I joined the church I knew that this is the true church of Jesus Christ and that the Book of Mormon is true. That's about it. I did not believe in the law of chastity at all. I did not have a testimony of tithing, service, calling by inspiration, or the Apostleship. Almost two years later I went to the temple for the first time to receive my endowment. I didn't have a testimony of temples either, and to me it was more of an initiation than anything else. I was now part of the in group.

One of the many lessons we can learn from the scriptures drtahher posted above is that there are different levels of spirituality. From this it follows that we need to progress through those levels as Alma Jr did, and that we are not going to all be at the same level. We need to progress individually and understand that others are at a lower level and others are at a higher level than we each are.

[JohnnyL]

Consider the experience of Alma the younger. He had a miraculous conversion after being struck dumb after feeling the power and listening to the chastening of an angel. Compare this experience to what he teaches the people of Zarahemla about how he learned the truths of the gospel. See the contrast in the scriptures below. Does this say anything about the process of a obtaining a testimony vs conversion? Why does he make the distinction? Is there a difference in these two experiences or is he referring to the same experience? Is there a modern day application?

Mosiah 27:24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

Alma 5:46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.

I would say that the first experience is referring to his personal redemption. In the second case, the things he was fasting and praying to know about were "the things which have been spoken by our fathers concerning the things which are to come." (Alma 5:44) In the first case he experiences contact with God and is forgiven, in the second case, he is pursuing knowledge about future events.

What you have here are two different pursuits or objectives. One is personal redemption, the other pertains to the aquisition of specific knowledge.

Second this.