Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

[Seek the Truth]

So it should be obvious that in order to have equality, some drastic change has to take place. We cannot have those who esteem themselves better rule over us

How do they rule over you.

[Seek the Truth]

I would say that now,

Oh, the words of a man. The arm of flesh. We know what that is worth.

[clarkkent14]

Has happened before, can happen again. Simple.

Except Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith said this was the last dispensation that would not happen again and would endure till the end.

So no it cannot happen again. Simple. See my sig.

"If the people of Zion did not repent, the Lord would seek another place, and another people."

[Jesef]

But we can't get an answer about Snuffer until after we follow him, remember? The Lord may (subjunctive mood), apparently, be unwilling to answer or manifest the truth of Snuffer, his claims of wresting the keys of the kingdom, etc., and his message, by the power of the Holy Ghost - for we may receive no witness until after the trial of our faith - like some extreme sacrifices, not limited to, but such as breaking all our sacred covenants, removing our names from the (purportedly corrupt and defunct) Church (i.e. self-excommunication), being re-baptized (hoping Denver is correct), and making a new covenant under his direction (hoping it is valid) - then, maybe, we just might get an answer (and start flying before we hit the bottom of the cliff we just jumped off - or hope, at least, that there might be water at the bottom of the bridge, hoping we are over a bridge with water because we just jumped off the train). Thanks for pointing out the ever-elusive subjunctive mood which has just invalidated almost all of scripture. "By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." Just may/might/maybe/probably not.

[Arenera]

But we can't get an answer about Snuffer until after we follow him, remember? The Lord may (subjunctive mood), apparently, be unwilling to answer or manifest the truth of Snuffer, his claims of wresting the keys of the kingdom, etc., and his message, by the power of the Holy Ghost - for we may receive no witness until after the trial of our faith - like some extreme sacrifices, not limited to, but such as breaking all our sacred covenants, removing our names from the (purportedly corrupt and defunct) Church (i.e. self-excommunication), being re-baptized (hoping Denver is correct), and making a new covenant under his direction (hoping it is valid) - then, maybe, we just might get an answer (and start flying before we hit the bottom of the cliff we just jumped off - or hope, at least, that there might be water at the bottom of the bridge, hoping we are over a bridge with water because we just jumped off the train). Thanks for pointing out the ever-elusive subjunctive mood which has just invalidated almost all of scripture. "By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." Just may/might/maybe/probably not.

You have to make some principles now. Being led by a blogger. Isn't that trusting in the arm of flesh?! This is one strange movement, going from Christ to arms of men. Maybe its time to mow a lawn.

[Mark]

Has happened before, can happen again. Simple.

Except Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith said this was the last dispensation that would not happen again and would endure till the end.

So no it cannot happen again. Simple. See my sig.

"If the people of Zion did not repent, the Lord would seek another place, and another people."

What makes people think for 1 second that the Lord is going to use a bunch of rag tag former LDS members who have decided to become off-shoot covenant breakers by turning from their baptismal and temple covenants initially made in houses of the Lord to redeem Zion? When the early Saints under Joseph's and Hyrums leading hand were not able to redeem Zion did the Lord just give up on all of them and immediately start working thru all those who had apostatized from the restored church and had gone off and started their own movements? I must have missed that in the D&C. Name 1 off-shoot apostate leader or movement in the early days of the church that the Lord in revelation backed and supported As His new covenant people. You can't because there wasn't any. None of them prospered. None. Yet now we are to believe than some attorney by the name of Denver Snuffer has wrested the Priesthood keys from the First Presidency and his thousand or so devout followers are now the chosen people called to redeem Zion? What a joke. This remnant movement has much more in common with Harmstons TLC church than they ever did with The restored church thru Joseph's leadership. Is this the zombie apocalypse? Wake up people and smell the sulfur.

[jdt]

What makes people think for 1 second that the Lord is going to use a bunch of rag tag former LDS members who have decided to become off-shoot covenant breakers by turning from their baptismal and temple covenants initially made in houses of the Lord to redeem Zion? When the early Saints under Joseph's and Hyrums leading hand were not able to redeem Zion did the Lord just give up on all of them and immediately start working thru all those who had apostatized from the restored church and had gone off and started their own movements? I must have missed that in the D&C. Name 1 off-shoot apostate leader or movement in the early days of the church that the Lord in revelation backed and supported As His new covenant people. You can't because there wasn't any. None of them prospered. None. Yet now we are to believe than some attorney by the name of Denver Snuffer has wrested the Priesthood keys from the First Presidency and his thousand or so devout followers are now the chosen people called to redeem Zion? What a joke. This remnant movement has much more in common with Harmstons TLC church than they ever did with The restored church thru Joseph's leadership. Is this the zombie apocalypse? Wake up people and smell the sulfur.

The Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast, but they would not come. Again he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner. My cattle and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the marriage feast!"' But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his merchandise, and the rest grabbed his servants, and treated them shamefully, and killed them. When the king heard that, he was angry, and sent his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren't worthy. Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the marriage feast.' Those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. The wedding was filled with guests. But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who didn't have on wedding clothing, and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here not wearing wedding clothing?' He was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness; there is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be.' For many are called, but few chosen.

All are bidden to come unto the wedding feast. There is still time for any person to repent. If you are satisfied with your current state, by all means, stay the path.

[Thomas]

I will make a deal with you. You fast and pray about Snuffer and I will ask again about the 15. I really doubt that God will overturn the hundreds of hours of instruction he has already given me but if it will motivate you to pray about Snuffer's message, than why not.

Why do you ask people to gain testimony of a man where on the same page you say such testimony is worthless.

Do you understand the cosmic contradiction? I do not need Denver Snuffer even by your logic.

Your position is fatally flawed.

Read the word message in my post

[Arenera]

What makes people think for 1 second that the Lord is going to use a bunch of rag tag former LDS members who have decided to become off-shoot covenant breakers by turning from their baptismal and temple covenants initially made in houses of the Lord to redeem Zion? When the early Saints under Joseph's and Hyrums leading hand were not able to redeem Zion did the Lord just give up on all of them and immediately start working thru all those who had apostatized from the restored church and had gone off and started their own movements? I must have missed that in the D&C. Name 1 off-shoot apostate leader or movement in the early days of the church that the Lord in revelation backed and supported As His new covenant people. You can't because there wasn't any. None of them prospered. None. Yet now we are to believe than some attorney by the name of Denver Snuffer has wrested the Priesthood keys from the First Presidency and his thousand or so devout followers are now the chosen people called to redeem Zion? What a joke. This remnant movement has much more in common with Harmstons TLC church than they ever did with The restored church thru Joseph's leadership. Is this the zombie apocalypse? Wake up people and smell the sulfur.

The Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast, but they would not come. Again he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner. My cattle and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the marriage feast!"' But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his merchandise, and the rest grabbed his servants, and treated them shamefully, and killed them. When the king heard that, he was angry, and sent his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren't worthy. Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the marriage feast.' Those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. The wedding was filled with guests. But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who didn't have on wedding clothing, and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here not wearing wedding clothing?' He was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness; there is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be.' For many are called, but few chosen.

All are bidden to come unto the wedding feast. There is still time for any person to repent. If you are satisfied with your current state, by all means, stay the path.

Do you guys preach your gospel to baptist or catholic forums? Or do you just hound LDSFF?

[underdog]

Has happened before, can happen again. Simple.

Except Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith said this was the last dispensation that would not happen again and would endure till the end.

So no it cannot happen again. Simple. See my sig.

"If the people of Zion did not repent, the Lord would seek another place, and another people."

What makes people think for 1 second that the Lord is going to use a bunch of rag tag former LDS members who have decided to become off-shoot covenant breakers by turning from their baptismal and temple covenants initially made in houses of the Lord to redeem Zion? When the early Saints under Joseph's and Hyrums leading hand were not able to redeem Zion did the Lord just give up on all of them and immediately start working thru all those who had apostatized from the restored church and had gone off and started their own movements? I must have missed that in the D&C. Name 1 off-shoot apostate leader or movement in the early days of the church that the Lord in revelation backed and supported As His new covenant people. You can't because there wasn't any. None of them prospered. None. Yet now we are to believe than some attorney by the name of Denver Snuffer has wrested the Priesthood keys from the First Presidency and his thousand or so devout followers are now the chosen people called to redeem Zion? What a joke. This remnant movement has much more in common with Harmstons TLC church than they ever did with The restored church thru Joseph's leadership. Is this the zombie apocalypse? Wake up people and smell the sulfur.

Brother Mark,

What the Lord is doing is the NORM. What is the Lord doing? He is confounding those "who think they know." It's always that way. The ones "who think they know" are never interested in His voice. They don't want to hear Him because they know. They don't need Him, because they know the path they're on is the correct path. When a true prophet is sent, or when Jesus came Himself, the only thing standing in the way of a religious, "righteous" and faithful people (like LDS Mormons or any non Mormon Christian) from accepting Truth is their pride. You see, they already "know." Many scriptures prove this point:

1 Cor. 1: 27.
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

D&C 1: 19-23
19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—
20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;
21 That faith also might increase in the earth;
22 That mine everlasting covenant might be established;
23 That the fulness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple unto the ends of the world, and before kings and rulers.

D&C 124: 1.
1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Joseph Smith, I am well pleased with your offering and acknowledgments, which you have made; for unto this end have I raised you up, that I might show forth my wisdom through the weak things of the earth.

Perhaps the Lord's doing a "strange act"?

[jdt]

But we can't get an answer about Snuffer until after we follow him, remember? The Lord may (subjunctive mood), apparently, be unwilling to answer or manifest the truth of Snuffer, his claims of wresting the keys of the kingdom, etc., and his message, by the power of the Holy Ghost - for we may receive no witness until after the trial of our faith - like some extreme sacrifices, not limited to, but such as breaking all our sacred covenants, removing our names from the (purportedly corrupt and defunct) Church (i.e. self-excommunication), being re-baptized (hoping Denver is correct), and making a new covenant under his direction (hoping it is valid) - then, maybe, we just might get an answer (and start flying before we hit the bottom of the cliff we just jumped off - or hope, at least, that there might be water at the bottom of the bridge, hoping we are over a bridge with water because we just jumped off the train). Thanks for pointing out the ever-elusive subjunctive mood which has just invalidated almost all of scripture. "By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." Just may/might/maybe/probably not.

I feel for you. I really do.
I think we are back at an impasse.
The only thing I can say at this point: I have never felt like I have been asked to do anything akin to jumping off a cliff. I have instead felt a greater call to repent, to take the scriptures more seriously, and a greater feeling of unity. If you find a deeper level of spirituality, closer to the Lord, and a better exposition of the scriptures within LDS mormonism, then you ought to stay.

[jdt]

Do you guys preach your gospel to baptist or catholic forums? Or do you just hound LDSFF?

I can only speak for myself, but LDSFF and remnantofjacobforum are the only ones I visit. I rarely post here it has really only been on threads that have been started by non-remnant folks with thread titles that include either "Remnant" or "Denver" in the title. And I try to just respond to what other either ask or incorrectly assert about the movement. I admit that I really did not follow that rule in this case. Mark really does not ever contribute anything more than a loquacious version of "You guys are apostate". And I finally got fed up with it and decided to respond with scripture and an invitation to repent.

[Arenera]

Do you guys preach your gospel to baptist or catholic forums? Or do you just hound LDSFF?

I can only speak for myself, but LDSFF and remnantofjacobforum are the only ones I visit. I rarely post here it has really only been on threads that have been started by non-remnant folks with thread titles that include either "Remnant" or "Denver" in the title. And I try to just respond to what other either ask or incorrectly assert about the movement. I admit that I really did not follow that rule in this case. Mark really does not ever contribute anything more than a loquacious version of "You guys are apostate". And I finally got fed up with it and decided to respond with scripture and an invitation to repent.

I understand. I think each person reacts differently on things they believe. I'm more of the type to not follow something I don't believe.

It seems to me that the topics Denver promoted early on, like going straight to Christ and following the Spirit, not trusting in the arm of flesh, not creating a church, he is back tracking and remnants are trusting in Denver, an arm of flesh, and basically starting a church. What are your thoughts on this?

[clarkkent14]

What the Lord is doing is the NORM. What is the Lord doing? He is confounding those "who think they know." It's always that way. The ones "who think they know" are never interested in His voice. They don't want to hear Him because they know. They don't need Him, because they know the path they're on is the correct path. When a true prophet is sent, or when Jesus came Himself, the only thing standing in the way of a religious, "righteous" and faithful people (like LDS Mormons or any non Mormon Christian) from accepting Truth is their pride. You see, they already "know." Many scriptures prove this point:

The Parables of Jesus and the Interpretation of the Scriptures

In reference to the prodigal son, I said it was a subject I had never dwelt upon; that it was understood by many to be one of the intricate subjects of the scriptures; and even the Elders of this Church have preached largely upon it, without having any rule of interpretation. What is the rule of interpretation? Just no interpretation at all. Understand it precisely as it reads. I have a key by which I understand the scriptures. I enquire, what was the question which drew out the answer, or caused Jesus to utter the parable? It is not national; it does not refer to Abraham, Israel or the Gentiles, in a national capacity, as some suppose. To ascertain its meaning, we must dig up the root and ascertain what it was that drew the saying out of Jesus.

While Jesus was teaching the people, all the publicans and sinners drew near to hear Him; "and the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying: This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them." This is the keyword which unlocks the parable of the prodigal son. It was given to answer the murmurings and questions of the Sadducees and Pharisees, who were querying, finding fault, and saying, "How is it that this man as great as He pretends to be, eats with publicans and sinners?" Jesus was not put to it so, but He could have found something to illustrate His subject, if He had designed if for nation or nations; but He did not. It was for men in an individual capacity; and all straining on this point is a bubble. "This man receiveth sinners and eateth with them."

And he spake this parable unto them--"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them doth not leave the ninety-and-nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety-and-nine just persons which need no repentance." The hundred sheep represent one hundred Sadducees and Pharisees are in the sheepfold, I have no mission for you; I am sent to look up sheep that are lost; and when I have found them, I will back them up and make joy in heaven." This represents hunting after a few individuals, or one poor publican, which the Pharisees and Sadducees despised.

He also gave them the parable of the woman and her ten pieces of silver, and how she lost one, and searching diligently, found it again, which gave more joy among the friends and neighbors than the nine which were not lost; like I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety-and-nine just persons that are so righteous; they will be damned anyhow; you cannot save them. (Jan. 29, 1843.) DHC 5:260-262.

[underdog]

What the Lord is doing is the NORM. What is the Lord doing? He is confounding those "who think they know." It's always that way. The ones "who think they know" are never interested in His voice. They don't want to hear Him because they know. They don't need Him, because they know the path they're on is the correct path. When a true prophet is sent, or when Jesus came Himself, the only thing standing in the way of a religious, "righteous" and faithful people (like LDS Mormons or any non Mormon Christian) from accepting Truth is their pride. You see, they already "know." Many scriptures prove this point:

The Parables of Jesus and the Interpretation of the Scriptures

In reference to the prodigal son, I said it was a subject I had never dwelt upon; that it was understood by many to be one of the intricate subjects of the scriptures; and even the Elders of this Church have preached largely upon it, without having any rule of interpretation. What is the rule of interpretation? Just no interpretation at all. Understand it precisely as it reads. I have a key by which I understand the scriptures. I enquire, what was the question which drew out the answer, or caused Jesus to utter the parable? It is not national; it does not refer to Abraham, Israel or the Gentiles, in a national capacity, as some suppose. To ascertain its meaning, we must dig up the root and ascertain what it was that drew the saying out of Jesus.

While Jesus was teaching the people, all the publicans and sinners drew near to hear Him; "and the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying: This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them." This is the keyword which unlocks the parable of the prodigal son. It was given to answer the murmurings and questions of the Sadducees and Pharisees, who were querying, finding fault, and saying, "How is it that this man as great as He pretends to be, eats with publicans and sinners?" Jesus was not put to it so, but He could have found something to illustrate His subject, if He had designed if for nation or nations; but He did not. It was for men in an individual capacity; and all straining on this point is a bubble. "This man receiveth sinners and eateth with them."

And he spake this parable unto them--"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them doth not leave the ninety-and-nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety-and-nine just persons which need no repentance." The hundred sheep represent one hundred Sadducees and Pharisees are in the sheepfold, I have no mission for you; I am sent to look up sheep that are lost; and when I have found them, I will back them up and make joy in heaven." This represents hunting after a few individuals, or one poor publican, which the Pharisees and Sadducees despised.

He also gave them the parable of the woman and her ten pieces of silver, and how she lost one, and searching diligently, found it again, which gave more joy among the friends and neighbors than the nine which were not lost; like I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety-and-nine just persons that are so righteous; they will be damned anyhow; you cannot save them. (Jan. 29, 1843.) DHC 5:260-262.

Wow, ClarkKent, that's a great find. I had read that interpretation of the 99 before and looked for it a long time several months ago and couldn't find it. So you provided me a great service by quoting it again. I thank you!

And I appreciate the "key" that Joseph shared in unlocking the scriptures to us. Fabulous!

[Mark]

Do you guys preach your gospel to baptist or catholic forums? Or do you just hound LDSFF?

I can only speak for myself, but LDSFF and remnantofjacobforum are the only ones I visit. I rarely post here it has really only been on threads that have been started by non-remnant folks with thread titles that include either "Remnant" or "Denver" in the title. And I try to just respond to what other either ask or incorrectly assert about the movement. I admit that I really did not follow that rule in this case. Mark really does not ever contribute anything more than a loquacious version of "You guys are apostate". And I finally got fed up with it and decided to respond with scripture and an invitation to repent.

If the shoe fits.. Look jdt this isn't my first rodeo in the so called remnant breakoff movement. Snuffers latest version is just a tired old remake of so many that have gone before him.

I saw first hand many just like you who jumped ship to follow James Reincarnated Joseph Harmstons remnant talk. Those people could talk circles around most of the Snuffer disciples when it came to painting the LDS church as an apostate organization. They could mingle the philosophies of men with scripture with the best of them. Seeking to redeem Zion was their battle cry. Unfortunately they fell into the age old trap of the adversary by breaking there sacred temple covenants of becoming an accuser of the Brethren.

Go read Nibleys talk on Criticizing the Brethren. Joseph warned the Saints against becoming just such an accuser over and over again. Yet nobody in the remnant movements seem to learn that important lesson. Harmstons bunch sure didn't learn it and before you could say apostate they were off doing the craziest and most bizzare stuff under the pretense that it was all of God and they were the true remnant followers who were all having their calling and election made sure. They were part of the Lords strange act. Isaiah testified of their mission yada yada yada.

You guys haven't come up with something new or revolutionary. It is just the same old same old that remnant wanna be so called "visionaries" have been putting out for years now. If you want to follow Pied piper Snuffer off a cliff in pursuit of spiritual suicide just like the TLCers did with Harmston have at it. Just don't lecture and try to preach to active LDS folks that you are the chosen ones answering the Lords great call. I call BS on that prideful boast and you will soon find out the reality of that observation. I could bet my food storage on it. Buckle up because my experience is that false spirits are about to take you for the ride of your life. Then they will dump you on your head after ruining your life. Just ask those who hooked their train to Jim Bob Harmstons track..

[jdt]

I understand. I think each person reacts differently on things they believe. I'm more of the type to not follow something I don't believe.

It seems to me that the topics Denver promoted early on, like going straight to Christ and following the Spirit, not trusting in the arm of flesh, not creating a church, he is back tracking and remnants are trusting in Denver, an arm of flesh, and basically starting a church. What are your thoughts on this?

I see things as a natural progression. The whole point is the establishment of Zion. There are many aspects to what it takes to have Zion. Let's just look at two: every person knows the Lord and having one heart and mind.
These are not things that exactly happen overnight. For many receiving the Second Comforter is a life-long process, for some it happens quicker, for some not at all. That is where the message started, some have received the Second Comforter, many (myself included) are still striving to do so. But that was never the be-all-end-all, a great thing for sure, but there is more. Note: there are many within the movement who disagree with that statement as see things as you do, that Denver is recanting and changing. I, instead, see it as more of a multitasking thing. We also need to be of one heart and mind. And this is experiential. You can read about it and study it, but until you actually do it you haven't achieved it. This too is not done overnight. This really started early on with the tithing groups, then has progressed to whole fellowships with priesthood sustainings and baptisms and sacrament meetings, to general conferences, and now a covenant. Hey that looks a lot like a church! In some ways, sure. But in other ways it is setup to accomplish very different things. The movement is setup to achieve unity through people coming together and working with each other. Yes, Denver pitched the idea of tithing groups, but it was up to the individual groups how to run things. And it was messy, people had wildly different ideas on everything (should this be primarily for people within the fellowship, or open to any need, how do we adjudge which needs are greater, etc...) And it was educational. You could read all the books in the world, and learn more in the first meeting. And the list goes on, yes, Denver presented the idea of women sustaining and now removing a man's priesthood certificate. I know a woman who was on the much discussed John Doe council, and I can see she learned a lot from being on the council, through her own mistakes with the ordeal. And this knowledge about how we judge other people, when should we be forgiving, when should we bring justice, how do we balance mercy and justice, these are weighty things, these are things that you must know to be of one heart and mind, and ultimately to be a God. How can you have a place with the noble and great ones before a world is created if you cannot sit in council and knock out something as small as a general conference?
And like I say, this is messy takes a long time. The remnant fails a lot. Time will tell if we are humble, repent, and learn how to be unified. We now have a covenant to (in part) recover the lost sheep, yes Denver gave the idea, but now we have to turn to the Lord and figure out how we are going to accomplish it.
Now for hopefully a gentle and accurate description, contrast this with LDS mormonism. I submit that unity there is seen as coming to agreement with the guy at the top. Tithing is distributed by the FP, Q12, and Pres Bishopric. Sacrament meetings are ran by the Bishopric. You can provide feedback (hey Bishop I would like to see more singing in sacrament meeting), but ultimately members are kind of put in a "take-it-or-leave-it" situation.
The remnant takes the opposite model and eschews these types of leadership roles and instead brings everyone together to decide on which actions to take. So in that sense, it does similar things as the church does, but it does them in very different way than most churches do. Yes, it is often Denver who plants the ideas on what to do, but it is up to the people to come together to accomplish it. The scripture committee self-organized without any input from Denver. The Temple committee also self-organized.
So again, I see things as all aiming toward Zion. While we are still striving to rely upon the Lord, we are at the same time learning to be of one heart and mind with our brothers and sisters.

[Jesef]

Look how easily "spiritual wifery" crept in with John Doe. Look how much disagreement and contention and dissension occurred with the scripture committee and everything to do with that project, as well as the "covenant" proffered by Denver (many people disagreed about it). Look at how many people have already ditched the movement (dwindling, not growing, it seems) - I know of fellowships that have completely imploded (no longer exist). But all this fits right into the paradigm, right? Only the truly chosen will endure and make it to the end of the yellow brick road to OZ, I mean ZION. This is just the sifting out of the tares, to join all the bad LDS fish. Only the Lord's truly chosen and beloved will make it into the cave in the little car, while the train wrecks and the world full of billions of unaware souls burns!

This is such elitist, spiritually fanatical garbage (it seems). And you guys are conflating "repentance" with doing the hokey-pokey just right (Denver's way). So, repentance, is waking up to all our "unbelief", recognizing all the terrible faults of the LDS corporation and its corrupt leaders and history (we loved it when we married it, but now it's old and tired and gray and we want to trade it in for a younger, prettier model that doesn't have all those wrinkles - so repulsive now), turning away from said institution and everything it does/offers, breaking all those fake/pantomime covenants made under hollow/invalid authority, and following the only truly authorized messenger (who now holds his wrested priesthood keys), Mr. Denver/David Snuffer (DS - wait! isn't that the same acronym as Davidic Servant? I think I just had a moment of enlightenment, an epiphany - that must be the Holy Ghost). And now that we can re-interpret all of scripture using the subjunctive mood (may/might, might as well be "maybe or maybe not", "probably or probably not"), we can make anything mean whatever we want, toss every verse up in the air and just pick and choose what we like (like the Baptists! they only need Romans Chapter 9)!

And don't count on the power of the Holy Ghost - it isn't what you thought it was - it's just cool-seeming insights, like "DS" = "Davidic Servant" & "Denver Snuffer". It's not really powerful, don't get confused - "power" isn't really powerful, it's subtle, almost undetectable - you have to try really hard and pray 1000's of times to "discern" it.

Yes, this is dripping with sarcasm, folks. As fellow sojourners, I pray you all the best - but I think many of the ideas you've proffered are pure nonsense. Not very persuasive and certainly not accompanied by spiritual power and confirmation from the Source of Truth I love and recognize. I think I'll stick to trying to be a Christlike Mormon, to Love, to keeping sacred promises and trying my best to do no harm, especially to my family and loved ones to whom I am bound. I'll keep an eye on you, though, and see if you actually bear the fruit you're anticipating. I honestly think Denver is just an imaginative pretender/fantasizer, and you all have bought into his fantasy (I think most of what he's "seen" is in his mind's eye, i.e. imagination - he's not willing to explicate scientifically how he has "seen", btw).

[jdt]

If the shoe fits.. Look jdt this isn't my first rodeo in the so called remnant breakoff movement. Snuffers latest version is just a tired old remake of so many that have gone before him.

I saw first hand many just like you who jumped ship to follow James Reincarnated Joseph Harmstons remnant talk. Those people could talk circles around most of the Snuffer disciples when it came to painting the LDS church as an apostate organization. They could mingle the philosophies of men with scripture with the best of them. Seeking to redeem Zion was their battle cry. Unfortunately they fell into the age old trap of the adversary by breaking there sacred temple covenants of becoming an accuser of the Brethren.

Go read Nibleys talk on Criticizing the Brethren. Joseph warned the Saints against becoming just such an accuser over and over again. Yet nobody in the remnant movements seem to learn that important lesson. Harmstons bunch sure didn't learn it and before you could say apostate they were off doing the craziest and most bizzare stuff under the pretense that it was all of God and they were the true remnant followers who were all having their calling and election made sure. They were part of the Lords strange act. Isaiah testified of their mission yada yada yada.

You guys haven't come up with something new or revolutionary. It is just the same old same old that remnant wanna be so called "visionaries" have been putting out for years now. If you want to follow Pied piper Snuffer off a cliff in pursuit of spiritual suicide just like the TLCers did with Harmston have at it. Just don't lecture and try to preach to active LDS folks that you are the chosen ones answering the Lords great call. I call BS on that prideful boast and you will soon find out the reality of that observation. I could bet my food storage on it. Buckle up because my experience is that false spirits are about to take you for the ride of your life. Then they will dump you on your head after ruining your life. Just ask those who hooked their train to Jim Bob Harmstons track..

Seriously, save people the time and just say "You are apostate and I am not".

I will say if Remnant folk are claiming any special chosen-ness thus far, they need to stop it. We are still in the subjunctive mood phase of "if we heed the Lord, we can become" rather than the "we listened and we are". It is still quite possible the Lord will pass us by and seek another people, but it is up to us if we will repent. Time will prove things out, but I don't think that the Gamaliel's of the world are great model of personal repentance.

[Arenera]

I understand. I think each person reacts differently on things they believe. I'm more of the type to not follow something I don't believe.

It seems to me that the topics Denver promoted early on, like going straight to Christ and following the Spirit, not trusting in the arm of flesh, not creating a church, he is back tracking and remnants are trusting in Denver, an arm of flesh, and basically starting a church. What are your thoughts on this?

I see things as a natural progression. The whole point is the establishment of Zion. There are many aspects to what it takes to have Zion. Let's just look at two: every person knows the Lord and having one heart and mind.
These are not things that exactly happen overnight. For many receiving the Second Comforter is a life-long process, for some it happens quicker, for some not at all. That is where the message started, some have received the Second Comforter, many (myself included) are still striving to do so. But that was never the be-all-end-all, a great thing for sure, but there is more. Note: there are many within the movement who disagree with that statement as see things as you do, that Denver is recanting and changing. I, instead, see it as more of a multitasking thing. We also need to be of one heart and mind. And this is experiential. You can read about it and study it, but until you actually do it you haven't achieved it. This too is not done overnight. This really started early on with the tithing groups, then has progressed to whole fellowships with priesthood sustainings and baptisms and sacrament meetings, to general conferences, and now a covenant. Hey that looks a lot like a church! In some ways, sure. But in other ways it is setup to accomplish very different things. The movement is setup to achieve unity through people coming together and working with each other. Yes, Denver pitched the idea of tithing groups, but it was up to the individual groups how to run things. And it was messy, people had wildly different ideas on everything (should this be primarily for people within the fellowship, or open to any need, how do we adjudge which needs are greater, etc...) And it was educational. You could read all the books in the world, and learn more in the first meeting. And the list goes on, yes, Denver presented the idea of women sustaining and now removing a man's priesthood certificate. I know a woman who was on the much discussed John Doe council, and I can see she learned a lot from being on the council, through her own mistakes with the ordeal. And this knowledge about how we judge other people, when should we be forgiving, when should we bring justice, how do we balance mercy and justice, these are weighty things, these are things that you must know to be of one heart and mind, and ultimately to be a God. How can you have a place with the noble and great ones before a world is created if you cannot sit in council and knock out something as small as a general conference?
And like I say, this is messy takes a long time. The remnant fails a lot. Time will tell if we are humble, repent, and learn how to be unified. We now have a covenant to (in part) recover the lost sheep, yes Denver gave the idea, but now we have to turn to the Lord and figure out how we are going to accomplish it.
Now for hopefully a gentle and accurate description, contrast this with LDS mormonism. I submit that unity there is seen as coming to agreement with the guy at the top. Tithing is distributed by the FP, Q12, and Pres Bishopric. Sacrament meetings are ran by the Bishopric. You can provide feedback (hey Bishop I would like to see more singing in sacrament meeting), but ultimately members are kind of put in a "take-it-or-leave-it" situation.
The remnant takes the opposite model and eschews these types of leadership roles and instead brings everyone together to decide on which actions to take. So in that sense, it does similar things as the church does, but it does them in very different way than most churches do. Yes, it is often Denver who plants the ideas on what to do, but it is up to the people to come together to accomplish it. The scripture committee self-organized without any input from Denver. The Temple committee also self-organized.
So again, I see things as all aiming toward Zion. While we are still striving to rely upon the Lord, we are at the same time learning to be of one heart and mind with our brothers and sisters.

I wish you the best on your journey. That being said, I'm not sure why remnant proselyting is allowed on this pro LDS site. You know, there are many Catholics and muslims around.

[Mark]

If the shoe fits.. Look jdt this isn't my first rodeo in the so called remnant breakoff movement. Snuffers latest version is just a tired old remake of so many that have gone before him.

I saw first hand many just like you who jumped ship to follow James Reincarnated Joseph Harmstons remnant talk. Those people could talk circles around most of the Snuffer disciples when it came to painting the LDS church as an apostate organization. They could mingle the philosophies of men with scripture with the best of them. Seeking to redeem Zion was their battle cry. Unfortunately they fell into the age old trap of the adversary by breaking there sacred temple covenants of becoming an accuser of the Brethren.

Go read Nibleys talk on Criticizing the Brethren. Joseph warned the Saints against becoming just such an accuser over and over again. Yet nobody in the remnant movements seem to learn that important lesson. Harmstons bunch sure didn't learn it and before you could say apostate they were off doing the craziest and most bizzare stuff under the pretense that it was all of God and they were the true remnant followers who were all having their calling and election made sure. They were part of the Lords strange act. Isaiah testified of their mission yada yada yada.

You guys haven't come up with something new or revolutionary. It is just the same old same old that remnant wanna be so called "visionaries" have been putting out for years now. If you want to follow Pied piper Snuffer off a cliff in pursuit of spiritual suicide just like the TLCers did with Harmston have at it. Just don't lecture and try to preach to active LDS folks that you are the chosen ones answering the Lords great call. I call BS on that prideful boast and you will soon find out the reality of that observation. I could bet my food storage on it. Buckle up because my experience is that false spirits are about to take you for the ride of your life. Then they will dump you on your head after ruining your life. Just ask those who hooked their train to Jim Bob Harmstons track..

Seriously, save people the time and just say "You are apostate and I am not".

I will say if Remnant folk are claiming any special chosen-ness thus far, they need to stop it. We are still in the subjunctive mood phase of "if we heed the Lord, we can become" rather than the "we listened and we are". It is still quite possible the Lord will pass us by and seek another people, but it is up to us if we will repent. Time will prove things out, but I don't think that the Gamaliel's of the world are great model of personal repentance.

Whatever..

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[Jesef]

On a less sarcastic, more serious note - we can all agree that faith and repentance are important, "key" even (not to be confused with "keys" here). So what is your idea of repentance and why do you feel true faith and repentance cannot be achieved/realized as a mainstream Latter-day Saint? Why do you believe it must involve listening to and following Denver? Because actions to have to be taken, according to him, e.g. re-baptism and now this "scripture" covenant. Why is that repentance? What are we repenting of, being duped Latter-day Saints? And why does not the Holy Ghost confirm this strange path before taking it? Why must promises/covenants, made in good conscience and which involve other souls, in the case of marriages, sealings, etc. - be broken before confirmation/validation? Why would not The Lord manifest the truth of such a momentous and important thing by the power of the Holy Ghost, at least to the same degree He did concerning just a book, The Book of Mormon, let's say (as well as granting the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost and other blessings AS a Latter-day Saint)? Do you not see how nonsensical this seems? How backwards? The Lord is not absurd and He does not expect us to blindly accept and follow absurdities. But I guess if we aren't being gathered out by the angels, we ain't worth it (ain't worthy)...

[ajax]

Look how easily "spiritual wifery" crept in with John Doe. Look how much disagreement and contention and dissension occurred with the scripture committee and everything to do with that project, as well as the "covenant" proffered by Denver (many people disagreed about it). Look at how many people have already ditched the movement (dwindling, not growing, it seems) - I know of fellowships that have completely imploded (no longer exist). But all this fits right into the paradigm, right? Only the truly chosen will endure and make it to the end of the yellow brick road to OZ, I mean ZION. This is just the sifting out of the tares, to join all the bad LDS fish. Only the Lord's truly chosen and beloved will make it into the cave in the little car, while the train wrecks and the world full of billions of unaware souls burns!

This is such elitist, spiritually fanatical garbage (it seems).

Wait, didn't you just describe the LDS church?
I mean you have heard of:

-stones in hats
-14 yr old girls
-secret marriages
-marrying other men's wives while the man is out of town
-constant apostasy
-high plains murder
-elitist attitudes ("we're the best-est!")

etc...

Perhaps the whole thing is rotten, root and branch.

Integrity to follow convictions is what is really important imo, coupled with live and let live.

If anything, friendship ought to exist among the differing parties.
"Friendship is one of the grand fundamental principles of ‘Mormonism’;".

If this can be exhibited above all else, then maybe we will all come out to be true Mormons.

[underdog]

Look how easily "spiritual wifery" crept in with John Doe. Look how much disagreement and contention and dissension occurred with the scripture committee and everything to do with that project, as well as the "covenant" proffered by Denver (many people disagreed about it). Look at how many people have already ditched the movement (dwindling, not growing, it seems) - I know of fellowships that have completely imploded (no longer exist). But all this fits right into the paradigm, right? Only the truly chosen will endure and make it to the end of the yellow brick road to OZ, I mean ZION. This is just the sifting out of the tares, to join all the bad LDS fish. Only the Lord's truly chosen and beloved will make it into the cave in the little car, while the train wrecks and the world full of billions of unaware souls burns!

This is such elitist, spiritually fanatical garbage (it seems). And you guys are conflating "repentance" with doing the hokey-pokey just right (Denver's way). So, repentance, is waking up to all our "unbelief", recognizing all the terrible faults of the LDS corporation and its corrupt leaders and history (we loved it when we married it, but now it's old and tired and gray and we want to trade it in for a younger, prettier model that doesn't have all those wrinkles - so repulsive now), turning away from said institution and everything it does/offers, breaking all those fake/pantomime covenants made under hollow/invalid authority, and following the only truly authorized messenger (who now holds his wrested priesthood keys), Mr. Denver/David Snuffer (DS - wait! isn't that the same acronym as Davidic Servant? I think I just had a moment of enlightenment, an epiphany - that must be the Holy Ghost). And now that we can re-interpret all of scripture using the subjunctive mood (may/might, might as well be "maybe or maybe not", "probably or probably not"), we can make anything mean whatever we want, toss every verse up in the air and just pick and choose what we like (like the Baptists! they only need Romans Chapter 9)!

And don't count on the power of the Holy Ghost - it isn't what you thought it was - it's just cool-seeming insights, like "DS" = "Davidic Servant" & "Denver Snuffer". It's not really powerful, don't get confused - "power" isn't really powerful, it's subtle, almost undetectable - you have to try really hard and pray 1000's of times to "discern" it.

Yes, this is dripping with sarcasm, folks. As fellow sojourners, I pray you all the best - but I think many of the ideas you've proffered are pure nonsense. Not very persuasive and certainly not accompanied by spiritual power and confirmation from the Source of Truth I love and recognize. I think I'll stick to trying to be a Christlike Mormon, to Love, to keeping sacred promises and trying my best to do no harm, especially to my family and loved ones to whom I am bound. I'll keep an eye on you, though, and see if you actually bear the fruit you're anticipating. I honestly think Denver is just an imaginative pretender/fantasizer, and you all have bought into his fantasy (I think most of what he's "seen" is in his mind's eye, i.e. imagination - he's not willing to explicate scientifically how he has "seen", btw).

Well said summary for the most part, from your perspective. I appreciated your sarcasm anyway. I believe you will keep an eye on the movement. As will AI2.

I haven't re-read DC 65 yet but will today.

[underdog]

On a less sarcastic, more serious note - we can all agree that faith and repentance are important, "key" even (not to be confused with "keys" here). So what is your idea of repentance and why do you feel true faith and repentance cannot be achieved/realized as a mainstream Latter-day Saint? Why do you believe it must involve listening to and following Denver? Because actions to have to be taken, according to him, e.g. re-baptism and now this "scripture" covenant. Why is that repentance? What are we repenting of, being duped Latter-day Saints? And why does not the Holy Ghost confirm this strange path before taking it? Why must promises/covenants, made in good conscience and which involve other souls, in the case of marriages, sealings, etc. - be broken before confirmation/validation? Why would not The Lord manifest the truth of such a momentous and important thing by the power of the Holy Ghost, at least to the same degree He did concerning just a book, The Book of Mormon, let's say (as well as granting the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost and other blessings AS a Latter-day Saint)? Do you not see how nonsensical this seems? How backwards? The Lord is not absurd and He does not expect us to blindly accept and follow absurdities. But I guess if we aren't being gathered out by the angels, we ain't worth it (ain't worthy)...

Jesef,

I remember several years ago I was sharing the gospel with a local minister in my home (I once went through the phone book and contacted all my local ministers and invited them to discuss Mormonism). We met a few times and he was interested enough to read the Book of Mormon. And he did read the Book of Mormon and he followed METICULOUSLY Moroni's promise and reported back to me that he did not receive a clear answer by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I reviewed the promise about sincerity and real intent. I asked him if he would retire from his church and join the Mormons? He said he would. I asked him if he would testify of the truth to his congregation and be a great Mormon missionary. He said he would.

I thought he was sincere. But I can't and couldn't judge the thoughts and intents of his heart.

So did his lack of experiencing 'power' mean the BoM wasn't true?

The vast majority of the people who follow Moroni's promise as instructed do not report being visited by great power.

Does this mean the BoM isn't true?

The overwhelming vast majority of active and converted Latter Day Saints also do not report experiencing the Holy Ghost in a powerful way.

Does this mean that the Book of Mormon isn't true?

There are people who believe the message of truth and those who don't. Most don't. Take Jesus' day, for example, or you could look at Lehi's day in Jerusalem or Noah's day. It doesn't matter. Those who believed would testify that they were wrought upon by the Holy Ghost. And what would the non believers testify of? They were in the decided MAJORITY. What would there speech be like? I'm speaking of the religious and even righteous type (who were non believers in the message of truth). They not only existed, but they were the majority. And they were the noisiest of all the protesters. Agreed?

What do you think their murmurings would have been? Would they "go gentle into that good night"? Or might they be vociferous? What would they clamor to say and get others to believe about the believers? What would they loudly say about themselves, the "true believers"? Would they undermine and tear down the believers' testimonies? Would they ever give credence to the believers' testimonies?

There can be no question, in our day, that both sides are having spiritual experiences, wouldn't you agree? Surely this is how it's always been. There is opposition in all things. Isn't it a bummer that God just doesn't make it easy for us to discern his words? Seriously, it SEEMS like you're wanting it made easy -- do you feel there could be some truth to that observation?

I mean you're pretty much in disbelief that God doesn't make it easy on you! If the answer doesn't come in the way YOU want, you say His ways are "nonsensical" to you, even "backwards."

Why would not the Lord manifest the truth of such a momentous and important thing by the power of the Holy Ghost, at least to the same degree He did concerning just a book, The Book of Mormon, let's say (as well as granting the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost and other blessings AS a Latter-day Saint)? Do you not see how nonsensical this seems? How backwards?

But then you make Him into a being that resembles how YOU would run things by saying, "The Lord is not absurd and He does not expect us to blindly accept and follow absurdities," because you believe he'd send "powerful" manifestations.

That was the precise sentiment of the minister I referenced above...he truly would agree with you! You and he both have a "logical" case (in your minds). Why wouldn't God "manifest the truth of such a momentous and important thing by the power of the Holy Ghost?"

I go back to the very first principle of the gospel: faith.

We need faith. You need faith. That minister needed faith.

The sad part is the wealth of spiritual "how to" knowledge approved by Joseph Smith known as the Lectures on Faith, in fact plain and precious things, were removed from our canon in 1921. Understanding those lectures would aid somebody like you (and me and all of us) struggling in this telestial world with holy things that require faith to comprehend.