Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

[AI2.0]

I'm sorry if i'm badgering, but these accusations must be addressed and pointed out since you seem blind to the problems within your own new-found relgion. My responses in blue;

I think you right that God doesn't save us collectively. He does so individually. However what constitutes salvation for one does so for all and that applies to all generations. The requirement are the same for all generations Rob Smith of Upward thought blog criticized Snuffer for now preaching a 'collective salvation', one of the things that has changed with snuffer's teachings-- you should read it, because with Snuffer's covenant you all accepted, he made it 'collective salvation'. I made a thread about it.

To repent means to return or in other words turn your course. It does not necessarily mean a person has achieved salvation.LDS don't teach that; Salvation comes through more than simply repentance--there are faith in christ, enduring to the end, baptism, confirmation etc. It means they have turned their course. The baptism the church offers adds to the requirements that Christ has set. It doesn't.
It follows the admonitions of Christ on this. We have repented of that. Some of the things you have listed as "same", I will agree that some will live by the principles and others wont. But as a whole, the church teaches doctrine that leads away from these things. False.
The church teaches from the scriptures (and we didn't cut them up to do so) The church teaches doctrines that lead us to Christ and Heavenly Father.
Perhaps a few members have not denied the fullness of the gospel, however the church leaders have denied it and teach this to the members.This is a false assertion.

They also teach Idolatry. They also teach inequality. They also teach the doctrine of Korihor. They also teach your Holy Ghost is wrong if it conflicts with theirs. They also teach to be prideful.This is all baseless. And each one I could say the same things about Remnant: Some idolize Snuffer. Apparently John Doe's 'holy ghost' promptings were considered wrong since they contradicted Snuffer's views. They teach that they are better than others--the 'elect' are in the Remnant now, they've left the masses of apostate LDS.

So, if the church was put under condemnation for not living the precepts of the Book of Mormon, why would you think we would not be under the same condemnation when we don't live by them either? The church was under condemnation for taking the book of Mormon lightly,
not reading it or teaching it. Members and leaders have worked studiously to fix this. And, if you think the LDS church was under condemnation,
how could a 'true church' grow out of a 'condemned' idolatrous apostate church? You can't mix new wine with old bottles, but that's what every break off sect is. The Remnant is no different.

Do you think the requirement has changed? Do you think the requirements for salvation have changed?

[Thomas]

The condemnation said, to not only say but to do what the Book of Mormon says. It was more than just neglecting the book but about living by it's precepts

Rob Smith is wrong. No one is claiming group salvation But since you seem to like his views so much, why don't you check his book, Teaching for Commandments the Doctrine of Men. Likely, the strongest rebuke of the church I have ever seen. You can read it for free, on his blog.

The church adds the requirement to sustain the president of the church which Elder nelson teaches is an oath of obedience. Christ teaches that any that add to his requirements are not of him. They add other things as well, like no smoking, attending church and in some instances, paying of tithing before baptism

The fullness of the gospel was denied by Elder Oaks in an area conference in Boise, I believe it was June 2015. You need to read D&C 84 to know what that is. It is to be brought into the presence of the Father and given a covenant, from him, in person.

The idolatry thing is so self evident, I do not even think it needs to be addressed. The leaders do promote it.

[Jesef]

You have so many self-proclaimed "prophets" and "Second Comforter recipients" in your movement who don't agree - apparently they are using different "Holy Ghosts" or they are talking to different "Lords" - otherwise they would all be on the same page, right?

[Thomas]

You have so many self-proclaimed "prophets" and "Second Comforter recipients" in your movement who don't agree - apparently they are using different "Holy Ghosts" or they are talking to different "Lords" - otherwise they would all be on the same page, right?

It's hard to say who is in this movement and who is not. Right now, I would say it those who have taken the covenant. There are many people that associate with the movement but are not really of it. And then, as Onewhiswatching has talked about, there is another movement which revolves around Gileadi, Brinkerhoff and others that oppose Snuffer. They also are comprised of active and former Mormons that think the church is apostate

There is still much pruning to be done. No one has accomplished anything great or have done anything better than the LDS, They are simply trying to build Zion and do God's will. Some few will make it but I suspect many more will not.

[underdog]

Underdog, which of Denver's ideas/teachings have been so enlightening or filled you with such "light and wonder" (and yet you have not detected the Power of the Holy Ghost to any significant degree, i.e. you have not received a very powerful or overwhelming spiritual confirmation of such as you did with the Book of Mormon previously)?

Jesef, I can't read his blog (pretty much any post which discusses doctrine) without being enlightened and wanting to learn more. He gives so many insights and new perspectives that one can't help but conclude he knows way more than he's communicating.

So to answer your question is hard. Because his impact is felt in most of his writings. I'll give you an example. Hold on, I'll visit his blog and pick a random post, and copy and paste an insight to prove what I'm talking about. One sec....

Okay...I'm back.

2 Nephi 30: 18

"Wherefore, all things which have been revealed unto the children of men shall at that day be revealed; and Satan shall have power over the hearts of the children of men no more, for a long time. And now, my beloved brethren, I make an end of my sayings."


The truth will be revealed. But truth of this nature will involve something else. Satan will have no power. When we gather enough light and truth, Satan's influence and power ends. We find that Satan is "cast out" because he can no longer deceive.


His primary tool is the lie. When there is enough truth, there is no longer any reason to believe or teach a lie. Therefore, he has lost power.


His secondary tool is the lusts and appetites of the flesh. When these are controlled, he is rendered completely ineffective. He is bound.


Once the lies are exposed and the appetites of the flesh are subdued, the hearts of men are freed from captivity. Nephi is describing a future day when this will be the the common situation for mankind.


Of course, this doesn't have to be a future day. It is possible to gain enough light and truth today so the lies are exposed to your view. It is also possible to subdue the appetites of the flesh. In any event, the desires, appetites and passions ought to be kept within the bounds which the Lord prescribes. We say that, but we don't often do that. Most people are not willing to actually subdue their desires, passions and appetites. It seems weird to suppress the desire for revenge, to actually turn the other cheek, and to return good for evil. In short, it would appear the Savior's conduct in willingly going to His death without accepting Peter's offer to use the sword in His defense was a bit nutty. At least from the perspective of the damned. (They can't even stop watching pornography. Latter-day "Saint" indeed. What's saintly about the vengeful, lustful, and gluttonous? But that's an aside...)


Binding Satan so he has no "power over the hearts of the children of men" is an interesting phrase. Why "power?" Why "power over the hearts?" Why "children of men" rather than sons of God? (See the dialogue between Moses and Satan where Moses refers to himself as a "son of God" but Satan calls him a "son of man" in Moses 1: 12-13.) Isn't that interesting?


Why is it that such power over the hearts of the children of men will be lost? It is as if entry into a Telestial World will bring about the binding of Satan, even before becoming a "son of God," and beginning the final journey into the Lord's presence. This is interesting - as if Nephi understood the Temple itself. (2 Nephi 5: 16.)


Satan's power is lost for a "long time" but not forever. Why? How will Satan be loosed again? (Rev. 20: 7; D&C 43: 31; D&C 88: 110.) I've described this event and the reasons in "The Great Competition" in Ten Parables.


The final phrase is because Nephi was through with his message for a while. He may have intended to take his writing up again, but the final phrase indicates he was done for the time. We cannot tell how long it was between the last verse of Chapter 30 and the first verse of Chapter 31. When he takes up his writing again, he is clearly ending his ministry. How long he took to compose his final thoughts is undisclosed. But this will be an old man, finishing his mortal warning to us.


Let's take a look at it...

Aug 20, 2010

He describes here many things. Satan's primary tool is the lie, and #2 is how he inspires us to lust after things: food, women, power, sleep, whatever.

If we conquer the appetites than Satan loses so much power over us. We should then make a game plan to overcome the flesh, to overcome our appetites.

I just think he teaches truth and light. My heart burns within me, like the disciples on the road to Emmaus.

What can I say, Jesef? If you don't feel edified by reading his writings, then I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I've had lots of spiritual experiences while reading his words. The Spirit is teaching me, but I can only learn as much as I qualify myself to learn. I spirit whispers to me now that God wants me to teach me much more. I just need to open up to him and declare myself a child, or a fool before him. I feel like the mystery of knowing God is yielding, as I am growing in faith -- and I attribute this growth to Denver's testimony and teachings. He's helped me look to Christ.
Even if I had a great spiritual experience to share with you, like seeing Christ, for example, I don't see how that would inspire you or help you. The way to reach you would be to persuade you with truth and love.

I have to say that I have felt your love, and I appreciate you for showing that love. Same to AI2.

Thank you, both.

Most sincerely.

Joseph Smith has the same impact on me.

[Jesef]

I guess it is too much to assume that what is inspiring to one will be inspiring to another. We all have different things to learn because we are at different stages in the game of eternal progression (I call it different soul ages, as in how long you’ve existed in your current intelligent/conscious existence). For example: a PhD in mathematics will not be inspired by algebra and a kindergartener will be baffled by it, but the middle schooler (who is ready to learn it) will be enlightened by it because it furthers his progression in math learning. Something like that anyway - not a perfect analogy but it seems to fit some of what’s going on.

[Jesef]

Underdog, how long halt ye between two opinions? If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints still be what it claims to be, i.e. true & living & still The Lord’s, then be a true and faithful and loyal member of it. If Denver and his message be true, then totally commit and follow him. If you are not sure, then proceed slowly and carefully & do not take actions that cannot be undone (like dissolving your marriage or family).

JDT & Thomas, I presume you have already relinquished your memberships in the Church. Can you honestly testify that you feel better now, closer to God, and that you lost nothing as the Church Brethren informed you in person or by letter that your blessings and covenants and priesthood were revoked? This is a sincere question. I would like to know if you felt elated or if you felt any loss at all or what you felt, if anything. Thanks.

[Thomas]

I am still a member but I haven't attended for 6 months or so, And even then it was to support my wife. I wrote a letter and gave it to my bishop explaining that I thought the church was in apostasy and give a pretty detailed list as to why. I gave it to a few friends and family members as well. I have been expecting some sort of disciplinary action but none has come so far. I wrote the letter because the spirit directed me to do so. I felt great peace after I sent it and also when I met with my bishop to discuss it.

My bishop told me that he thought I was being deceived by a false spirit. The morning following the meeting, I had some alone time to pray to God about it one more time. I asked, once again, am I being deceived and if I am please correct me. Immediately, I felt the spirit bring peace and comfort. The spirit brought to my remembrance the path I had traveled to get there and the many, many times I had prayed about it.

I think I have already told this story but I will repeat it. The spirit then told me to ask how many times my bishop and those who read my letter had prayed about it. over the next 24 hours or so the spirit gave me quite a bit of revelation all of it based on Book of Mormon scripture.

The spirit had me read 1 Nephi where it showed Laman and lemeul were so incredulous they would not pray about it. Neither would the Jews pray about it and because they would not sincerely pray they could not know that Lehi and Nephi were telling the truth. I was also told that most people who hear Snuffer's message are so sure he is wrong, they have never sincerely prayed about it. They were the same as Laman and Lemuel

The spirit then explained to me how false spirits would deceive the modern LDS people. It is found in 2 Nephi 28:

5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

The spirit explained to me how all these scriptures apply to us. And that all the things I had put into my letter were attempting to convince people to align themselves with the word of God found in the scriptures. So the spirit said, who is the one being deceived, those who believe all is well or those who try to align with scripture?

So the above scripture applies to the brethren. They don't literally say there is no God today but they say there is no God for us. In other words, they will take the place in our lives that God should occupy. God has given his power unto them and we must listen to their precepts.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

This one is obvious and is the argument that is promoted here the most. This is the main way in which the adversary will deceive us. No need to repent because all is well. No need to have the spirit direct all things in our lives because if we need to hear anything, the brethren will tell it to us. No need to have personal revelation rule our lives because the brethren receive revelation for us. No need to attempt to receive the fullness of the gospel because the brethren have said, all is well.

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

This relates to the failure of having the spirit teach each us line upon line precept upon precept. It also relates to teaching of avoiding the mysteries. Staying within the mainstream of the church and know your place. Pray, pay and obey but stay away from all that Snuffer stuff. Or anything beyond what the brethren teach.

This is the way in which the adversary leads us to hell. It is by tricking us into thinking we are doing everything right when we are not.

I have been close to the spirit since writing that and taking the covenant, The spirit has been explaining things to me on a regular basis.

[underdog]

Underdog, how long halt ye between two opinions? If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints still be what it claims to be, i.e. true & living & still The Lord’s, then be a true and faithful and loyal member of it. If Denver and his message be true, then totally commit and follow him. If you are not sure, then proceed slowly and carefully & do not take actions that cannot be undone (like dissolving your marriage or family).

JDT & Thomas, I presume you have already relinquished your memberships in the Church. Can you honestly testify that you feel better now, closer to God, and that you lost nothing as the Church Brethren informed you in person or by letter that your blessings and covenants and priesthood were revoked? This is a sincere question. I would like to know if you felt elated or if you felt any loss at all or what you felt, if anything. Thanks.

Jesef,

I serve Christ. I follow Christ. Where I do that doesn't matter.

While a member, whom do you serve?

[Jesef]

That’s a deflection. I’m genuinely curious why, if you believe Denver, you are still LDS - when they now hold diametrically opposed claims? Were it known to LDS leaders that you believe in and follow Denver’s teachings, you would be excommunicated - so to remain you have to hide this. If you truly believe him, why are you not 100% all in? Have you been rebaptized? Did you make the covenant at the last conference? Isn’t it disingenuous to remain an LDS member when you’ve clearly broken faith with it? Why not become a still-friendly nonmember and associate but not pretend to be loyal? What are your reasons? Or, are you not sure enough of this different path to take those steps?

[Jonesy]

Thomas, I share a similar story as you. Have you been re-baptized? If so, have you told your bishop that? In my case I was about to be re-baptized, but the bishop said that if I did then he would have to excommunicate me. He even asked that if I go through with it then for me to resign rather than go through a council.

Looking back, I was fully in deception. I had very similar thoughts. I even had various experiences after.

It wasn't until I emailed a good trustworthy friend, who I'd been out of touch with, and asked his opinion that altered my course. So, how was it that in my full deception could I come out of it? It took faith from outside. I suppose that I gave way for a spot in me for the faith to be planted. And his words of faith were carried by the Spirit into my heart. It changed me over night when I read his email. It truly was a miracle. It was embarrassing to come back, too! After that, there were others put in my place to ease my way and understanding back in the church. I maybe took it harder than I should have.

Anyways, I just want you to know that there's more of your journey to experience. I likely don't have that faith that could alter your course, but I hope that at least you can keep a place open in your heart to come back.

[e-eye2.0]

That’s a deflection. I’m genuinely curious why, if you believe Denver, you are still LDS - when they now hold diametrically opposed claims? Were it known to LDS leaders that you believe in and follow Denver’s teachings, you would be excommunicated - so to remain you have to hide this. If you truly believe him, why are you not 100% all in? Have you been rebaptized? Did you make the covenant at the last conference? Isn’t it disingenuous to remain an LDS member when you’ve clearly broken faith with it? Why not become a still-friendly nonmember and associate but not pretend to be loyal? What are your reasons? Or, are you not sure enough of this different path to take those steps?

Agreed. There is alack of faith in what Denver teaches. Those who can't break off I think are testing the waters - they were Luke warm with the LDS church and thus are the same in Denver's church. It's also a little fence sitting for some seeing how this all plays out. Also, Denver encouraged members of the LDS that going to church at the LDS was okay and I think some do in search of missionary opportunities for the remnant.

There will be many excuses but really it's more a lack of faith - I think it's a good thing hopefully they wake up before they completely lose their testimony but on the flip side the wolves in sheeps clothing is dangerous.

[Thomas]

Thomas, I share a similar story as you. Have you been re-baptized? If so, have you told your bishop that? In my case I was about to be re-baptized, but the bishop said that if I did then he would have to excommunicate me. He even asked that if I go through with it then for me to resign rather than go through a council.

Looking back, I was fully in deception. I had very similar thoughts. I even had various experiences after.

It wasn't until I emailed a good trustworthy friend, who I'd been out of touch with, and asked his opinion that altered my course. So, how was it that in my full deception could I come out of it? It took faith from outside. I suppose that I gave way for a spot in me for the faith to be planted. And his words of faith were carried by the Spirit into my heart. It changed me over night when I read his email. It truly was a miracle. It was embarrassing to come back, too! After that, there were others put in my place to ease my way and understanding back in the church. I maybe took it harder than I should have.

Anyways, I just want you to know that there's more of your journey to experience. I likely don't have that faith that could alter your course, but I hope that at least you can keep a place open in your heart to come back.

Not only did I tell my bishop I have been re-baptized, I invited him to be re-baptized. He said he was going to call the Stake President and that I should expect to hear from him. That was several months ago and the only thing I have heard from the church is a card asking me to come back from the ward.

I am wondering if the church has changed their tactics. Perhaps they feel it is best to ignore it now but who knows. Maybe the axe is coming. If it is, I am fine with it. It will be my opportunity to do what God has asked of me.

I not saying this to be condescending but I am not surprised that you feel that way after turning back from baptism. If you turn from the path, you lose all the knowledge you have gained.

My re-baptism filled me with the spirit. Filled me with love and the spirit of prophecy. The scriptures opened up more fully to me. Prophecy was given to me about my future.

[Jonesy]

Thomas, I share a similar story as you. Have you been re-baptized? If so, have you told your bishop that? In my case I was about to be re-baptized, but the bishop said that if I did then he would have to excommunicate me. He even asked that if I go through with it then for me to resign rather than go through a council.

Looking back, I was fully in deception. I had very similar thoughts. I even had various experiences after.

It wasn't until I emailed a good trustworthy friend, who I'd been out of touch with, and asked his opinion that altered my course. So, how was it that in my full deception could I come out of it? It took faith from outside. I suppose that I gave way for a spot in me for the faith to be planted. And his words of faith were carried by the Spirit into my heart. It changed me over night when I read his email. It truly was a miracle. It was embarrassing to come back, too! After that, there were others put in my place to ease my way and understanding back in the church. I maybe took it harder than I should have.

Anyways, I just want you to know that there's more of your journey to experience. I likely don't have that faith that could alter your course, but I hope that at least you can keep a place open in your heart to come back.

Not only did I tell my bishop I have been re-baptized, I invited him to be re-baptized. He said he was going to call the Stake President and that I should expect to hear from him. That was several months ago and the only thing I have heard from the church is a card asking me to come back from the ward.

I am wondering if the church has changed their tactics. Perhaps they feel it is best to ignore it now but who knows. Maybe the axe is coming. If it is, I am fine with it. It will be my opportunity to do what God has asked of me.

I not saying this to be condescending but I am not surprised that you feel that way after turning back from baptism. If you turn from the path, you lose all the knowledge you have gained.

My re-baptism filled me with the spirit. Filled me with love and the spirit of prophecy. The scriptures opened up more fully to me. Prophecy was given to me about my future.

The only delusion I lost was that I thought Denver Snuffer was a prophet and the keys were not in the church. I think you'd be surprised how much your understanding expands when you realize that. Not only can I see that clearly, but I can also see that the devil can do wonders on our misunderstandings. He truly is the great deceiver and will take advantage of it. Along with that, I was surprised how much I had gained from making such a drastic change from the very small portion of faith I was given. Because of that experience, I can now see what more I need to overcome. I now understand the faith I need to go farther. But I can only say that I'm still in process.

[underdog]

That’s a deflection. I’m genuinely curious why, if you believe Denver, you are still LDS - when they now hold diametrically opposed claims? Were it known to LDS leaders that you believe in and follow Denver’s teachings, you would be excommunicated - so to remain you have to hide this. If you truly believe him, why are you not 100% all in? Have you been rebaptized? Did you make the covenant at the last conference? Isn’t it disingenuous to remain an LDS member when you’ve clearly broken faith with it? Why not become a still-friendly nonmember and associate but not pretend to be loyal? What are your reasons? Or, are you not sure enough of this different path to take those steps?

Good question. I do it for my wife. When she's ready, I make the break. Yes to rebap and cov. That time may be very near.

[Jesef]

This is truly fascinating how opposite people’s inspiration, revelation, and what they honestly feel/interpret their “Holy Ghost” or “the Spirit” is telling them & directing them. It’s literally all in our heads (& hearts). Is it really objective truth? As in one person is listening to the real Holy Ghost/Spirit and the other is deceived by a false one?

[Jonesy]

Jesef, speaking for myself, I think I still had a portion of the Spirit with me in my deception.

I think this might help to clarify. The following are Pres. Uchtdorf's five testimonies that always accompany the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ from his 2006 talk, The Power of a Personal Testimony:

• God lives. He is our loving Father in Heaven, and we are His children.

• Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and the Savior of the world.

• Joseph Smith is the prophet of God through whom the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored in the latter days.

• The Book of Mormon is the word of God.

• President Thomas S. Monson, his counselors, and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are the prophets, seers, and revelators in our day.

These are pillars of faith that we must have. If we have a misunderstanding of any of these pillars of faith, the devil will play on that the hardest. Is that not true? If one of those testimonies crumbles, the more our misunderstanding turns to pride and delusion until even the rest also may fall apart. This is why it's so dangerous to go all in with Denver Snuffer while having no testimony of his validity. It's easy to see how losing one of these testimonies can corrode the others. You may have a portion of the Spirit, but not the fullness; but who's to say how long that limbo can last until it all starts to crumble? We can see how this is also where discerning the Spirits becomes much more difficult.

[Jesef]

I think what I listed as pillar #5 and Pres. Uchtdorf’s are actually equivalent, i.e. if “the Church is (still) true”, then its claims are in tact and in force (& it is not rejected or in apostasy), and that truly hinges on the Apostles still holding all the keys of the kingdom, and the priesthoods are still potent. That pillar is the one Denver and all previous challengers have attacked.

[Jonesy]

That's the conclusion I have come to. Being deceived really dampened my spirits. So, my journey begins to repent again and eventually obtain the gift of the discernment of spirits.

[Jesef]

Thomas, as someone, like Jonesy, who has also drunk from both cups, and basically gone through the major shift from, let's call it, "orthodox LDS", to thinking "very possibly/likely Denver and his claims are true", and then back out again; I can tell you it is definitely NOT a loss of spiritual light. You considered yourself "awakening", in a sense, as you considered many of Denver's teachings and claims, etc. For me it was certainly a learning experience, like trying on a new pair of shoes for a few weeks and breaking them in (over hundreds of miles of running) - I really got a feel for them, I understood them, their strengths and weaknesses. I got to try on the confirmation bias of being a "Snufferite" - I ran in those shoes right up to the edge of the cliff - which I'll dub "taking actions for which there are very-hard-to-undo repercussions" - like getting rebaptized and/or removing one's name from Church membership. A cliff that many of my friends were jumping off of - excitedly even - after all, Denver is claiming exciting things: the apocalypse is nigh, he and whoever follows him are going to get a chance to build the long-awaited city of ZION (and live all things in common, one heart, one mind, no poor, etc.), he and others are talking face to face with Jesus (for reals!), etc.

That's the incentive to jump - you haven't received these things, but if you're willing to sacrifice everything, including your life and wife and children and everything else important in your life (for The Lord, of course - He's the one requiring this), then you'll receive all these fantastic blessings. Ah, it sounds so alluring doesn't it? Even the extreme sacrifice (though self-generated, like removing one's name from the Church, self-ex'ing) sounds right up the alley of the Lectures on Faith, right? Surely, this is pure light and truth, isn't it? This is like Abrahamic, Enochian, Melchizedek-ish stuff. You're going to become a literal spiritual super-hero Bad-A, one of the 144K for sure, clothed with light and power and glory, you're going to LEVEL UP if you do this, FOR SURE, right? But then I, like Jonesy (you're brave, dude!), began to notice some cracks in the Matrix, some glitches. One HUGE one, I've repeated several times, but I'll add a new insight to it in this post, was there was a distinct ABSENCE of the Power of the Holy Ghost which I had recognized and experienced several times in my life to such a degree that it was beyond doubt or question - the pure and overwhelming Power and Light and Love of God filling me up to the brim. Never received anything like that in connection with Denver's direct message. Don't mistake - I was having spiritual experiences during the time I was investigating and tasting his stuff - but it turned out to be completely unconnected. It was personal spiritual development/journey stuff. Also, I noticed there was a DIFFERENT spirit and taste to Denver's actual words and messages. His 10th talk felt particularly awkward and heavy (not light), sitting there in the room with all kinds of disillusioned and many somewhat bitter (and critical) dissidents. I was trying to vibe with them and just couldn't. It was like going to a Star Trek convention where fanatics were dressed up in cosplay and taking everything so seriously (like it was real) and being the only one dressed normally and just "liking" Star Trek, not thinking it's real (think Galaxy Quest, satire of how seriously some fans take sci-fi escapism fantasies of choice). But it definitely felt like fantasy, unreal. It was like a spiritual vacuum. I've said all that before - but I want to point out that it was a spirit, but a DIFFERENT spirit than what I have undoubtedly experienced in my past.

I want to point out one other thing. Thomas, JDT, Underdog, you have not "awakened" from Snufferism yet - I hope you do - you will find that there is more, there is an actual universal/eternal perspective - A God/Creator of All, not just your tribal god who plays favorites based on spurious, capricious, and unfair criteria. You are still firmly under Denver's spell and seemingly buying everything he's selling - his books cost way more than the cost of publication, fyi - particularly the Kindle versions - he shouldn't be making a profit on that information even if he is donating it to a cause of his choice rather than pocketing it - that's a direct violation of partaking freely without money and without price - the LDS Church does not charge people for the Book of Mormon, for example - we bear the cost of printing and distributing it. It is clear to me that you cannot see past the very biased talking points you've group-thought and bought from Denver - mainly all the scriptural interpretations you think indict the Church and all its Leaders. Many of his interpretations do not stand up under close scrutiny - I've pointed out a few which you all have conveniently ignored. When evidence is presented which counters your accusations, you seem unable to process it or consider it fairly and open-mindedly - i.e. you stick to your story even though it is a caricature of reality and not reality. You treat your caricatures as facts instead of acknowledging the disconfirming evidence and you resort to conspiracy theories as a failsafe - like when Pres. Uchtdorf taught the correct principles of leadership eschewing praise, adulation, pride, self-righteousness, and aspiring to be "great" - you basically said he was not to be taken at his word, that he was lying basically, just telling the members what they need to hear to pacify them while he and his brethren do the exact opposite - that is classic "demonizing". This caricaturization also involves the classic "demonizing" of your new enemies, e.g. "the Brethren (LDS Apostles)" aren't just leading us/the "sheeple" astray, they are doing it on purpose, their real motives are to live cushy and luxurious lives like kings of a multi-billion dollar empire while robbing the poor and the tithes of the unwitting and brainwashed masses! This is almost as conspiratorial as the Anti-Mormons (the Evil Mormon Empire). The fact that you cannot seem to stop yourselves from demonizing is another HUGE red flag that you are severely biased, if not deceived (self-deception at the very least, but it has a very collective/groupthink feel to it - you all use the same scriptures and talking points, like many cults do). The LDS Church has become your "great and abominable church" when clearly that is not what the Book of Mormon means or ever meant. Many of your talking points and accusations are too dramatic, too unfair, too oversimplified and caricatured, too demonized, too extreme, too exaggerated, too black-and-white/all-or-nothing, too sweeping and broad-stroked (applying a single instance to the whole, collective judgment, judging current by the past) - and if the same standards were applied to Joseph Smith and even Denver and your movement, they would undo/invalidate them just as effectively (so the classic double-standard).

You are probably drawn to Denver because, like me, you are prone to spiritual extremism (you would climb Everest if it meant an audience with the Lord) - you would do anything to prove you are "the Lord's chosen". Underdog, please be careful and live The Golden Rule with your wife. I'm assuming you are sealed to her via an LDS Temple marriage. Is she on-board with Snufferism? Does she believe him and want to be rebaptized and make this new covenant offered by him? Are you leaving her behind and becoming spiritually separated from her? If you are, I encourage you to turn back now. Do you truly love her and do you have a healthy marriage, family, children? Plowing ahead on some solo spiritual vision quest (to follow Snuffer) while leaving all your loved ones behind IS A HUGE MISTAKE. If "the Spirit" is encouraging you along this path of marital and familial destruction, perhaps I've given you a key to discerning how very different this new "spirit" is. This new spirit not only inspires you to see the Church you once loved and passionately defended as the new "enemy", it is able to use almost any means, including and especially the scriptures, to justify the demonizing - the next thing you know, you'll see your wife as "Laban" or "Laman & Lemuel" and fit to be discarded so you can find a wife fit for your new definition of exaltation (following Patriarch Snuffer and being sealed by him in his new Temple). My sweet, pure-hearted wife helped me see how very "different" this spirit of Snufferism really is. Build ZION in your marriage and family, Bro, and wait to see what the Lord unfolds in the next few decades, if it really is the coming apocalypse. I guarantee you whatever He does, for real, will not be subtle and un-powerful, like Denver and all his words (many of which now, however humble-appearing, aggrandize how special and chosen and cosmically awesome and foreordained he is).

That's enough for now. I apologize for the length. Peace and Love and the Blessings of God upon you all.

[Thomas]

Sorry you feel that way Jesef. The scriptural evidence, for me, is overwhelming. They way I see it, there is a ton of bricks sitting on one side of the scale and you try to throw a feather on the other side and say, " look. Look at my evidence".

This is not something I have approached lightly or without very serious contemplation and much prayer. When I pray for the answers, they come.

The spirit tells me, " how can they be God's messengers but not lead into compliance with the word of God'? It has been so clearly shown to me through the Book of Mormon. I just don't know how you could beat out the spirit in that debate. It has been quite clearly shown to me that we live by the doctrine of Nehor. We do not live by the righteous standards given in the Book of Mormon. We follow after every bad example in there.

And it goes far beyond that. We have redefined what salvation is what is means and how it is obtained. Like Isaiah says:

9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

The lord has said it takes the sacrifice of all earthly things to obtain eternal life but we told the Lord, " take that back and give us something easy. Give us something smooth."

I could literally write a book and fill it with the evidence the Lord has shown me and you want to quibble over the definitions of few words that you think means the church can never go astray, in spite of the evidence, they have gone astray. I mean it seems to me, they could sacrifice babies and you would still be pointing to that last time scripture.

Why do you think, we can do anything we want, do all the bad things that the others did in the past and not suffer the same fate? It is totally illogical to cling to some perceived promise that we cannot fail, when all our failings are evident.

[mirkwood]

"Keep the Doctrine of Christ pure and do not go to those who have not been set apart"

[Finrock]

Underdog, how long halt ye between two opinions? If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints still be what it claims to be, i.e. true & living & still The Lord’s, then be a true and faithful and loyal member of it. If Denver and his message be true, then totally commit and follow him. If you are not sure, then proceed slowly and carefully & do not take actions that cannot be undone (like dissolving your marriage or family).

JDT & Thomas, I presume you have already relinquished your memberships in the Church. Can you honestly testify that you feel better now, closer to God, and that you lost nothing as the Church Brethren informed you in person or by letter that your blessings and covenants and priesthood were revoked? This is a sincere question. I would like to know if you felt elated or if you felt any loss at all or what you felt, if anything. Thanks.

Jesef,

I serve Christ. I follow Christ. Where I do that doesn't matter.

While a member, whom do you serve?

underdog,

I say this without any malice and not in an attempt to condemn you. I say this to identify truth and to inform you plainly: Given your beliefs and your testimony regarding the LDS Church, your decision to stay "hidden" in the LDS Church is lacking in personal integrity and is a form of deception.

Its like a anti-Mormon pretending to a be a member of the Church so that they can gain access to the temple, record the temple ceremony, and then leak those recordings on to the internet.

It seems that the honorable thing to do would be to let your bishop know how you feel and what you believe and then deal with the consequences. Do what is right and let the consequence follow?

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Sorry you feel that way Jesef. The scriptural evidence, for me, is overwhelming. They way I see it, there is a ton of bricks sitting on one side of the scale and you try to throw a feather on the other side and say, " look. Look at my evidence".

This is not something I have approached lightly or without very serious contemplation and much prayer. When I pray for the answers, they come.

The spirit tells me, " how can they be God's messengers but not lead into compliance with the word of God'? It has been so clearly shown to me through the Book of Mormon. I just don't know how you could beat out the spirit in that debate. It has been quite clearly shown to me that we live by the doctrine of Nehor. We do not live by the righteous standards given in the Book of Mormon. We follow after every bad example in there.

And it goes far beyond that. We have redefined what salvation is what is means and how it is obtained. Like Isaiah says:

9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

The lord has said it takes the sacrifice of all earthly things to obtain eternal life but we told the Lord, " take that back and give us something easy. Give us something smooth."

I could literally write a book and fill it with the evidence the Lord has shown me and you want to quibble over the definitions of few words that you think means the church can never go astray, in spite of the evidence, they have gone astray. I mean it seems to me, they could sacrifice babies and you would still be pointing to that last time scripture.

Why do you think, we can do anything we want, do all the bad things that the others did in the past and not suffer the same fate? It is totally illogical to cling to some perceived promise that we cannot fail, when all our failings are evident.

Thomas,

You completely ignored the content and the substance of Jesef's post. You erected your straw man and beat that straw man to a small pile of rubble, never even getting close to touching or confronting the ideas, evidence, facts, and beliefs offered by Jesef.

-Finrock

[Mark]

Sorry you feel that way Jesef. The scriptural evidence, for me, is overwhelming. They way I see it, there is a ton of bricks sitting on one side of the scale and you try to throw a feather on the other side and say, " look. Look at my evidence".

This is not something I have approached lightly or without very serious contemplation and much prayer. When I pray for the answers, they come.

The spirit tells me, " how can they be God's messengers but not lead into compliance with the word of God'? It has been so clearly shown to me through the Book of Mormon. I just don't know how you could beat out the spirit in that debate. It has been quite clearly shown to me that we live by the doctrine of Nehor. We do not live by the righteous standards given in the Book of Mormon. We follow after every bad example in there.

And it goes far beyond that. We have redefined what salvation is what is means and how it is obtained. Like Isaiah says:

9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

The lord has said it takes the sacrifice of all earthly things to obtain eternal life but we told the Lord, " take that back and give us something easy. Give us something smooth."

I could literally write a book and fill it with the evidence the Lord has shown me and you want to quibble over the definitions of few words that you think means the church can never go astray, in spite of the evidence, they have gone astray. I mean it seems to me, they could sacrifice babies and you would still be pointing to that last time scripture.

Why do you think, we can do anything we want, do all the bad things that the others did in the past and not suffer the same fate? It is totally illogical to cling to some perceived promise that we cannot fail, when all our failings are evident.

Thomas,

You completely ignored the content and the substance of Jesef's post. You erected your straw man and beat that straw man to a small pile of rubble, never even getting close to touching or confronting the ideas, evidence, facts, and beliefs offered by Jesef.

-Finrock

You are on a roll Finrock. Keep it going.