Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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AI2.0
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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underdog wrote: September 21st, 2017, 1:39 pm
Mark wrote: September 21st, 2017, 10:57 am
underdog wrote: September 21st, 2017, 9:43 am Shadow,

When you come with something that is non circular and fresh and not based on your false premise (and then reasoning backwards, as if that makes any sense), then I'll respond. Otherwise, you'll get crickets from me. It's a waste of time for you to repeat yourself, and for me to respond.

I'm looking for serious discussion and not a repeat of your traditions.

AI2 had a response that showed research and thoughtfulness, quoting references, etc. Your responses are always based in your assumptions of what is true. Opinions and assertions can't be brought forth as evidence. Need something that at least appears to be factual.

Why do you even care? You have already made your choice and a stick of dynamite wouldn't move you off your intended remnant path. Is this just a game to you to get people's blood pressure to elevate? Clearly you are not trying to decide which path to follow. It just seems so fruitless to pursue any more discussion on this topic. Nothing said here will make any difference at this point. Just move forward with your new path and live your life.
Good point, and good questions, Mark.

I am persuaded by your points.

I will cautiously move forward.

Like you, and like the good folks here, I do want to follow the Lord and I want to do that by following His commandments and repenting and getting to the point where I understand His voice.

I know I'm a good person, and because I do the things I should be doing as a good member of the Church like reading the BoM, Bible, etc., going to the Temple, magnifying my callings, being a good dad and husband, etc. I think I should expect to be led by the Spirit.

Could I be wrong about Denver? I could. I walk by faith. I do not believe I could be wrong about the BoM or Jesus Christ. I believe both to be true.

To me, Denver's teachings match up and corroborate and sustain and conform to the Scriptures. The Scriptures testify of latter-day apostasy. I wish the Church didn't have so many black eyes, but what can I say, it just keeps giving itself black eyes. I truly and fervently wish the Church would stop it.

If Denver is a Pied Piper, then I could be victim. It's true. But right now, he's leading me to wake up and look to the Lord and not man. I have stopped my preoccupation with the Brethren -- my self-confessed idolatry. They don't claim anything more than what I've received and so why should I exalt them more than any other man?

If I am to be a victim, then I wonder what the result will be? Will Denver ask us to drink poisoned Koolaid, ala Jim Jones? Surely I won't fall for that one. Could I lose money by donating to the Temple fund? If I uproot and head to Zion, that would be a sacrifice and my non member family would think I'm nuts. But they think I'm nuts anyway for having joined the LDS Church 30 years ago.

I'm not sure how I can really be hurt negatively by trying to rely more on Jesus Christ and not on man?

At the end of the day, if I understand God's will for me, then I will be safe. Isn't that all any of us can do? At the end of the day, we must be plugged into the True Vine and we must do His will.

How can you be hurt negatively? By leaving the Lord's true church and abandoning your real, valid ordinances for a sham offered by a charlatan. That's how you can be hurt. And your family can be hurt by it too, because they will be affected by your choices.

And something else to consider which might help you determine truth. Do you know where Joseph Smith said that Zion, the New Jerusalem would be built? Jackson Country Missouri--it's in your scriptures unless the Scripture committee has removed those sections. :( So, if Denver Snuffer tries to get you to accept any other place as 'Zion' and wants you all to move there, then please recognize that he's breaking with Joseph Smith jr. and you should be very wary of his 'revelations' and not follow him to any supposed 'Zion' community.

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AI2.0
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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cestlavive wrote: September 21st, 2017, 7:21 pm I was driving down the road the other day listening to a song on my phone. It took me back in my memory to a night in Moab over a year ago where about 30--40 of us ...maybe more...were in a living room at one of our friends houses having sacrament. Before the meeting I was out in my car in a lot of pain. I told the person I was with that I wouldn't be coming in, that I needed to just sit in the car and deal with the pain of stomach ulcer. It was going from a 7--9 in pain(i know pain, I've had natural child birth). I didn't want to be social. After a few minutes sitting there two women who I am friends with and the owner of the home came out and asked what they could do to assist me. I told them nothing would help, I've tried everything. The owner of the home offered me she and her husbands bed to go lay on and rest. It was hard to accept, but I did. I went in and laid down and shut the door. While in there alone I felt A heavenly presence come in the room. Such a familiar, soft, loving and warm presence. There were people praying for me outside the room. I felt and heard the spirit teach me a beautiful lesson there in that room. A moment later my 8 scale pain that I had been dealing with for months that was escalating was GONE. I went down to where everything was being prepared for sacrament in the living room. It was dimly lit in the room. Packed. We broke bread. We prayed spontaneously as we are led to. Many of us stood in a circle and started to sing this song acapela. As the evening went on, I remember looking up while everyone stood doing their own things, in their own world with Jesus, singing praises to Him and loving him and loving each other. It was the most beautiful experience. I closed my eyes and Christ gave me a word. Jesus. He gave ME a word. He talked to ME. I was so shocked and humbled that Jesus would talk to me, but at the same time the presence was that of my oldest most dear friend, someone special that I've always known and loved. That word has grown and grown since that night and put me in such a fantastic journey of learning to like and then love myself (still working on that). Anyhow, as I was in my car the other day and this song brought that night back into my rememberence, I was profoundly happy and sad. I came to the realization that I would have taken one of the movement sacrament meetings over 3000 LDS sacrament meetings. While LDS sacrament was great, tears were shed, a spirit was felt (I was a Latter Day Saint that didn't even miss sacrament when i had strep throat, flu, etc.) it couldn't hold a candle to what has spontaneously erupted from the movement. Many of those in the movement have "left" the church. It's not Denvers movement. It is a movement that has been started and led by individuals following the Lord to the best of their abilities. If there are those in the movement that believe that Denver is the head honcho, then you probably didn't listen to his lectures very closely where he asked that we not even mention his name to anyone ever again. Because t isn't about Denver, it's about Christ and His restoration. These lectures were the Lords message, not a mans message. Some of my friends have had the self control to actually listen to Denver and never mention his name after the lectures and not keep up with his blog, conferences, etc. Wish I could say the same! Hehe. If there are those who are in idolatry of Denver or other "leaders" in the movement, then the point of the movement has escaped them. This is about an individual and Christ. I say it's a good thing Denver's making mistakes! He told us he WOULD make mistakes. It's helping people wake up and stop slipping back into man worship that is so easily slipped into from years and decades in the LDS church. I remember walking in the mountains to set out sacrament with one of my girl friends in 3-4 feet of snow. It was lovely. So beautiful. A HUGE bald eagle flew just over our heads as we were blessing the sacrament. So many of these sacraments are burned into my memory and changed my life to be closer to the Lord than anything else I've experienced. The same spirit I have when I read portions of the Bible, NT, and Book of Mormon was the same spirit of these meetings. It was real. No room for agendas or deceit, just truth. I'm finding Denvers not completely acting in truth right now, but I kind of expected it. He's a man. He's faliable. He can impart a message from the Lord but this isn't LDS 2.0 where Denver "Will never lead us astray".... :P HAHAHHA
That's not even in the books.....well.....maybe for some it is, which is sad, but whatever. As far as I can see, Denver woke a lot to what Joseph was trying to awake the early saints to, and that is bringing forth good fruits. But we are dealing with humans, and humans are messy messy creatures. In life, I want the truth. I don't want to give to a man the responsibility that devolves upon me. Whether that be the Heads of the LDS Church or Denver or whoever. Nobody has that right to step in between God and I. In life, I look at fruits. I look at the way we TREAT one another. Fruits of a Christ like individual. I was in another country last year having dinner with a friend and a church man of some evangelical church. When I saw the terrible terrible rude way this supposedly "Godly" church man treated the female server at this restaurant, the rest of the evening spent at his church was meaningless even though he had some pretty awesome prayers to pray over my friend and I and prophesied some pretty amazing things...he even demonstrated some pretty fantastic things....but because of the fruits of how he treated the server, everything else was water on wax for me. Meaningless. Cool, but never had the desire to meet with him again because of fruits.

Well, the way to Christ is narrow, and, like Hugh Nibley says, we better get down in the dust and realize how much nothingness we truly are. All of us. Maybe this way (leaving the church and starting to have church in your own homes or out in nature) isn't for everyone, and that's ok. The frustration with Denver is very palpable in this thread, but some people will find great spiritual guidance and goodness in this path of the basic message of the movement is stuck with. I know I have. I had to leave the mainstream LDS church and mainstream movement, and I still love my brothers and sisters In the church and in the movement and everywhere. Even though this path is not so clear cut and regimented like we were used to in the LDS church, it's been really good for me, and continues to be. I don't know if a lot of people know this on this thread, (or if you even care, haha!) but many in the movement don't agree with the temple fund and Denvers direction of late and the covenant and scripture project, etc. There are a lot that have returned to just following the Lord's direction and leaving the fluff behind. Whatever. To each their own! I'm still friends and close to those who took the covenant and those who didn't. And it's great! I hope we can all continue to meet together and live peaceably and lovingly with one another.
I appreciate you sharing your heartfelt thoughts on this. I'm certain that you are sincere. So, I hope you can realize that I am being absolutely sincere in my response.

This is how I view many in this movement. They were active LDS who attended church, served callings, paid tithing, attended the temple, and thought they were living the gospel. But, they weren't really spiritually engaged, for various reasons. They were bored at church, they got little satisfaction from serving others in their callings, they participated in a rote manner, very likely were disengaged from spiritual manifestations in their daily lives, I don't know, maybe they'd become lax in prayer, scripture reading or were once again, doing it in a rote manner, not engaged, distant. Maybe their lives were in a jumble, struggling with telestial relationships and telestial interactions and looking for something outside themselves to blame this on. Likely, they were bothered by the human frailties and problems of the members around them and maybe even had problems with their local church leaders, they let these feelings fester and harden. Their own disengagement clouded their judgment and strengthened their doubts, the little niggling things that bothered them, possibly in church history or in the way things are done, the conformity issues that many chafe at. Sadly, it made them vulnerable to the whisperings of the adversary as he also validated their complaints and frustrations. They turn inward and the adversary continues to feed their criticisms, making them more hardened to being able to feel charity, love and forgiveness which are vital in our church. Then Snuffer comes along and tells them that they don't need these people, they don't need to serve them in burdensome callings, or give up their hard earned money to pay tithing, and they can drink wine, coffee, tea, whatever. They don't have to worry about what anyone else tells them, because all they have to do is 'listen' for the voices in their own mind (which he said was the Holy Ghost) to validate their beliefs and feelings. He also made it exciting because he put such emphasis on spiritual manifestations and he and others continued the myth that no one in the LDS church is having manifestations--(which is false by the way) and that if they spent time with other 'like=minded' people, they'd be able to have these.

So, the way I see it, Remnant movement people had a lot of complaints and criticisms and feelings that their former religion just wasn't cutting it for them and Snuffer validated their feelings, gave them explanations for why that was so, told them things that were not true (but offered validation in the way he reinterpreted scriptures and rewrote history) and it was easy to follow him out of a church which truly required sacrifice, enduring to the end and self-less service, to a church that is easier because it requires so much less. It's all on the individual for what they want to believe, how much effort they want to put into it. No judgment, no requirements, no listening to others and having to live to a certain standard of righteousness. And when you feel validated because you believe the angels are validating your choices with manifestations, it's easy to think you've made the right choice. But when you know that Satan can appear as an angel of light, when you know he can mimic the gifts of the spirit, then you know these things can be imitated and used to deceive. We've been warned of it in our scriptures (unless Remnant has removed those scriptural warnings too).

But this I know because we've were warned. We were specifically warned of 'false prohets, false christs and false teachers' which would arise in the last days. We were told that we would be able to identify them 'by their fruits'. So far, that has been true--if you look at these false prophets, their bitter fruits will eventually be known. Denver Snuffer's movement is young, but already there are red flags. He's moving away from his initial teachings and evolving his movement into a church. He's moving from his initial teaching of going directly to God and instead is putting himself in as a prophet who reveals God's will to his people. The problem is that what he once rejected, he now teaches--with him as the prophet. He claims to only teach what Joseph taught, but that is not true--example--the seven women to sustain one man. Fellowships are not something Joseph taught. The Lord will not let you fall into apostasy without warning you and the warning signs are all there, but it takes humility and a broken and contrite heart to see them.

It will take humility, prayer, a broken heart and contrite spirit on the part of individuals to recognize truth and hopefully some will see it and help others within the group to see it as well. That is my prayer for the Remnant followers.

underdog
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

AI2.0 wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:39 pm
underdog wrote: September 21st, 2017, 1:39 pm
Mark wrote: September 21st, 2017, 10:57 am
underdog wrote: September 21st, 2017, 9:43 am Shadow,

When you come with something that is non circular and fresh and not based on your false premise (and then reasoning backwards, as if that makes any sense), then I'll respond. Otherwise, you'll get crickets from me. It's a waste of time for you to repeat yourself, and for me to respond.

I'm looking for serious discussion and not a repeat of your traditions.

AI2 had a response that showed research and thoughtfulness, quoting references, etc. Your responses are always based in your assumptions of what is true. Opinions and assertions can't be brought forth as evidence. Need something that at least appears to be factual.

Why do you even care? You have already made your choice and a stick of dynamite wouldn't move you off your intended remnant path. Is this just a game to you to get people's blood pressure to elevate? Clearly you are not trying to decide which path to follow. It just seems so fruitless to pursue any more discussion on this topic. Nothing said here will make any difference at this point. Just move forward with your new path and live your life.
Good point, and good questions, Mark.

I am persuaded by your points.

I will cautiously move forward.

Like you, and like the good folks here, I do want to follow the Lord and I want to do that by following His commandments and repenting and getting to the point where I understand His voice.

I know I'm a good person, and because I do the things I should be doing as a good member of the Church like reading the BoM, Bible, etc., going to the Temple, magnifying my callings, being a good dad and husband, etc. I think I should expect to be led by the Spirit.

Could I be wrong about Denver? I could. I walk by faith. I do not believe I could be wrong about the BoM or Jesus Christ. I believe both to be true.

To me, Denver's teachings match up and corroborate and sustain and conform to the Scriptures. The Scriptures testify of latter-day apostasy. I wish the Church didn't have so many black eyes, but what can I say, it just keeps giving itself black eyes. I truly and fervently wish the Church would stop it.

If Denver is a Pied Piper, then I could be victim. It's true. But right now, he's leading me to wake up and look to the Lord and not man. I have stopped my preoccupation with the Brethren -- my self-confessed idolatry. They don't claim anything more than what I've received and so why should I exalt them more than any other man?

If I am to be a victim, then I wonder what the result will be? Will Denver ask us to drink poisoned Koolaid, ala Jim Jones? Surely I won't fall for that one. Could I lose money by donating to the Temple fund? If I uproot and head to Zion, that would be a sacrifice and my non member family would think I'm nuts. But they think I'm nuts anyway for having joined the LDS Church 30 years ago.

I'm not sure how I can really be hurt negatively by trying to rely more on Jesus Christ and not on man?

At the end of the day, if I understand God's will for me, then I will be safe. Isn't that all any of us can do? At the end of the day, we must be plugged into the True Vine and we must do His will.

How can you be hurt negatively? By leaving the Lord's true church and abandoning your real, valid ordinances for a sham offered by a charlatan. That's how you can be hurt. And your family can be hurt by it too, because they will be affected by your choices.

And something else to consider which might help you determine truth. Do you know where Joseph Smith said that Zion, the New Jerusalem would be built? Jackson Country Missouri--it's in your scriptures unless the Scripture committee has removed those sections. :( So, if Denver Snuffer tries to get you to accept any other place as 'Zion' and wants you all to move there, then please recognize that he's breaking with Joseph Smith jr. and you should be very wary of his 'revelations' and not follow him to any supposed 'Zion' community.
And Kirtland and Nauvoo. 3 whiffs. LocatLocation not nearly as important as a repentant people.

I really like your comments. The love gets through.

Thank you.

Do you mind if I ask, are you a Brother or Sister? I assume Sister. What's your story? Convert? Grow up in the Church? Conversion story? Why do you believe?

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AI2.0
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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And Kirtland and Nauvoo. 3 whiffs. LocatLocation not nearly as important as a repentant people.

I really like your comments. The love gets through.

Thank you.

Do you mind if I ask, are you a Brother or Sister? I assume Sister. What's your story? Convert? Grow up in the Church? Conversion story? Why do you believe?
In this instance, I'm not talking about places that could be considered 'zion', I'm referring to THE place that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith jr. the place that he 'appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints'. In D&C 57:1-3 he named Independence Missouri, saying; ...'wherefore this is the land of promise, and for the place for the city of zion...'

You are correct, I am a sister. :) I'm born and raised in the church, I've got strong LDS roots on both sides of my family; I'm a descendant of Hyrum Smith (there are a few of us on the forum). I had my own struggles when I was much younger--but they made me stronger because I decided that if I was going to remain in the church I needed to be 'all in' and needed to know it was true. Through studying, reading the scriptures, prayer, studying other resources and living the commandments, repenting and making changes, coming to know my Savior, I gained a witness and a firm testimony of the Gospel. I began studying gospel doctrine and church history when I was in my teens, but I also read the challenges put forward by church critics. Learning about the church and the doctrines is a hobby I've enjoyed my whole life. I taught Gospel Doctrine for a total of nine years and in addition to secular studies, I taught Book of Mormon and Bible classes at a private LDS school for a few years. I live in the Salt Lake area though I was raised in California, and am presently serving as a Ward Missionary.

What about you? I believe you said you are a convert and served a mission. Did you only start to have doubts about the church when you were introduced to Snuffer's writings, or was this earlier?

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Silver Pie
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Silver Pie »

AI2.0 wrote: September 12th, 2017, 5:48 pm Please tell me where he's not stepping easily into the role of Prophet, Seer and Revelator
It's obvious that he has stepped into that role.

As to the other things you've said, I view it a bit differently. From the beginning, the Lord has been trying to set up a Zion; a place where people can go and be safe if they don't want to join in with the killing that is going to be happening en masse in this country as it disappears (in the same manner that the Jaredites and Nephites disappeared).

I accepted the covenant because I recognized the Lord's voice in it, not because of Denver (the covenant includes knowing that the words are the Lord's). If there comes a point when I cease to recognize my Lord in the majority of what is said, then I will cease to believe DS's words that don't align with what my soul recognizes.

I also don't view Adrian and Keith as his counselors. When my little fellowship meets, we don't consult a manual. We don't consult Adrian and/or Keith's sermons. We conduct our meetings as we feel led by the Spirit. When my online fellowship gets together, we do whatever we please, unfettered by any man's ideas. Also, since you've kept abreast of this movement, you have to notice that the speakers at the general conferences (not General Conference, but conferences in which the general whole of the movement is invited) "nobodies" speak. Denver has spoken at all of them, so far, but Keith and Adrian are not regular speakers. I've only heard Keith speak once: as a witness to what DS said, and at the end of the tenth lecture. I don't know that Adrian has spoken, other than to introduce speakers at one of the Boise conferences. (I don't think I'd even recognize either man if I ran into them; that's how well known and "important" they are.)

There are no official magazines. No lesson manuals. No secret handbook that only the duly called and appointed leaders are privy to. There is no money going to any of the three men. None of them have their name on any legal papers. Heck, the church is an idea, not a legally organized entity. No one calls any man or woman to any position. The priesthood doesn't even have offices in it. It is "the priesthood" and that's it.

A point by point comparison with the details of the LDS religion (or any organized religion with church buildings and a leader) would show a lot of serious differences, as well as some surface similarities. I've talked to Denver. He is unassuming, meek. He had no desire to pontificate, no desire to capture my attention, no desire to tell me how wonderful he was. In fact, when a friend captured my attention a minute or two into the conversation, he didn't care at all. Nothing about him was grandiose or craving attention.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Silver Pie »

underdog wrote: September 12th, 2017, 6:56 pm
Seek the Truth wrote: September 12th, 2017, 6:51 pm Lol. The technical details are what does him in. The Kingdom set up by Joseph will not fail, by Joseph's own words. To accept Snuffer is to reject Joseph Smith.
Lol.

To accept Brigham is to reject Joseph, agreed?
(nod) They taught opposing things, from ordination of black men to how many wives one should have and have children with.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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underdog wrote: September 12th, 2017, 9:58 pm Your responses are so vapid that I honestly can't bear to read any more. I want to eat but after reading I'm still hungry. Your disrespect really comes through though so you're accomplishing something. I'll try to refrain from any bait you put out.
I am reminded of the lecture in Ephraim (7th?). Lemuel was there. On his name tag, he had written Seek the Truth. I did a double-take because I knew that Seek the Truth wouldn't be caught dead there. :lol:

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Silver Pie
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Silver Pie »

jdt wrote: September 13th, 2017, 9:19 am
AI2.0 wrote: September 12th, 2017, 5:48 pm And so, in 2017, Remnant people who rejected Pres. Monson and the 12 have replaced them with Denver Snuffer and his de facto counselors, Adrian Larson and Keith Hendersen.
(neither has spoken in a General Conference, . . .
I was quite sure of this, also.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Silver Pie »

jdt wrote: September 13th, 2017, 9:19 amIt is so difficult to correctly communicate our thoughts. Let me leave this in closing: perhaps we can agree on this difference, that Latter-Day Saints acknowledge the status of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator as coincident with an office (First Presidency and Twelve) and that it is usually conferred instantaneously upon sustaining and setting apart. Within the remnant, we avoid granting any offices or titles (including P,S,R) and instead end up acknowledging a person or people who (at least in our own estimation) provide prophecy, seership, and revelation after them having done so repeatedly and after many years of doing so.
I think this is the biggest difference: the meaning of the word "prophet" in people's minds. We think DS as a messenger from God, i.e. "prophet". LDS prophets, however, are leaders, are the bosses, receive deference and special treatment. They assign who teaches/rules. They drive nice cars, wear expensive suits (so I've heard, I wouldn't know a thousand dollar suit from a $2.50 D.I. special), receive a modest stipend/living allowance. They preach to pay them (the Church) before you pay your bills; in fact, to pay them instead of your bills or groceries if you can't afford both. Denver preaches no such thing. He is not the boss, to be obeyed without question (and if you don't sustain him as president, prophet, seer, and revelator, you are kicked out). He receives no money for what he does. He preaches that tithing is 10% of what you have left over after you've taken care of your expenses (10% of excess), and that it should only go to the poor. He preaches that if a man is a servant of God, he should be a real servant, sacrificing, losing money, in the service of his fellowman. I could go on, but I'm done. I'm sure I've preached shocking heresy to the max, already in my posts.

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Arenera
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

Silver Pie wrote: September 25th, 2017, 6:15 pm
jdt wrote: September 13th, 2017, 9:19 amIt is so difficult to correctly communicate our thoughts. Let me leave this in closing: perhaps we can agree on this difference, that Latter-Day Saints acknowledge the status of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator as coincident with an office (First Presidency and Twelve) and that it is usually conferred instantaneously upon sustaining and setting apart. Within the remnant, we avoid granting any offices or titles (including P,S,R) and instead end up acknowledging a person or people who (at least in our own estimation) provide prophecy, seership, and revelation after them having done so repeatedly and after many years of doing so.
I think this is the biggest difference: the meaning of the word "prophet" in people's minds. We think DS as a messenger from God, i.e. "prophet". LDS prophets, however, are leaders, are the bosses, receive deference and special treatment. They assign who teaches/rules. They drive nice cars, wear expensive suits (so I've heard, I wouldn't know a thousand dollar suit from a $2.50 D.I. special), receive a modest stipend/living allowance. They preach to pay them (the Church) before you pay your bills; in fact, to pay them instead of your bills or groceries if you can't afford both. Denver preaches no such thing. He is not the boss, to be obeyed without question (and if you don't sustain him as president, prophet, seer, and revelator, you are kicked out). He receives no money for what he does. He preaches that tithing is 10% of what you have left over after you've taken care of your expenses (10% of excess), and that it should only go to the poor. He preaches that if a man is a servant of God, he should be a real servant, sacrificing, losing money, in the service of his fellowman. I could go on, but I'm done. I'm sure I've preached shocking heresy to the max, already in my posts.
So much heresy....why do you listen to him now? I thought all of you were going to Christ.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Silver Pie »

I listen to him because I follow Christ. I don't know how to explain other than to say I recognize my Lord's words in a lot of what Denver says. When I have concerns about the direction something is going, I take it to God. God either explains it to me or shows me what the truth is. I follow Christ closely. That is my only safety. And if my Lord, my God, and my Christ turns out to be the dark one, then I guess the dark one must be my father. All I know is that I must follow the Voice I recognize, even if I am misunderstood, even if I am persecuted at some point, even if it appears that I am following some trickster or some egomaniac. (I don't consider the people on LDSFF as persecuting me because I recognize that many of you are concerned about my soul, and are worried that I am following the devil down to hell. I recognize that, and I appreciate that concern.)

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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

Silver Pie wrote: September 25th, 2017, 6:43 pm I listen to him because I follow Christ. I don't know how to explain other than to say I recognize my Lord's words in a lot of what Denver says. When I have concerns about the direction something is going, I take it to God. God either explains it to me or shows me what the truth is. I follow Christ closely. That is my only safety. And if my Lord, my God, and my Christ turns out to be the dark one, then I guess the dark one must be my father. All I know is that I must follow the Voice I recognize, even if I am misunderstood, even if I am persecuted at some point, even if it appears that I am following some trickster or some egomaniac.
Thank you Silver Pie.

Your explanation helped me realize that I am actively exercising faith in Christ. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I believe the path I'm on is the path which God's voice is beckoning me down.

I hear Christ's words in Denver's teachings. And I would be cowardly to not obey.

If I'm deceived and were to die right now I'd have to say to Jesus, I'd have to make my case that I was following HIS words as found in the Scriptures. And He would be compelled to say that I was following Him. Then perhaps I would sing these words, "Then in a moment to my view the Stranger started from disguise. The tokens in His hands I knew the Savior stood before mine eyes. He spake and my poor name He named, "Of me thou has not been ashamed; These deeds shall thy memorial be; fear not, thou didst them unto me."

What you said was so beautiful. Thank you!

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Arenera
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Posts: 2712

Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

and Satan did go about, leading away the hearts of the people, tempting them and causing them that they should do great wickedness in the land. (see John Doe)

and the sword of destruction did hang over them, insomuch that they were about to be smitten down by it, and this because of their iniquity.

underdog
captain of 100
Posts: 495

Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

AI2.0 wrote: September 23rd, 2017, 3:35 pm
And Kirtland and Nauvoo. 3 whiffs. LocatLocation not nearly as important as a repentant people.

I really like your comments. The love gets through.

Thank you.

Do you mind if I ask, are you a Brother or Sister? I assume Sister. What's your story? Convert? Grow up in the Church? Conversion story? Why do you believe?
In this instance, I'm not talking about places that could be considered 'zion', I'm referring to THE place that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith jr. the place that he 'appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints'. In D&C 57:1-3 he named Independence Missouri, saying; ...'wherefore this is the land of promise, and for the place for the city of zion...'

You are correct, I am a sister. :) I'm born and raised in the church, I've got strong LDS roots on both sides of my family; I'm a descendant of Hyrum Smith (there are a few of us on the forum). I had my own struggles when I was much younger--but they made me stronger because I decided that if I was going to remain in the church I needed to be 'all in' and needed to know it was true. Through studying, reading the scriptures, prayer, studying other resources and living the commandments, repenting and making changes, coming to know my Savior, I gained a witness and a firm testimony of the Gospel. I began studying gospel doctrine and church history when I was in my teens, but I also read the challenges put forward by church critics. Learning about the church and the doctrines is a hobby I've enjoyed my whole life. I taught Gospel Doctrine for a total of nine years and in addition to secular studies, I taught Book of Mormon and Bible classes at a private LDS school for a few years. I live in the Salt Lake area though I was raised in California, and am presently serving as a Ward Missionary.

What about you? I believe you said you are a convert and served a mission. Did you only start to have doubts about the church when you were introduced to Snuffer's writings, or was this earlier?
AI2,

I tried to respond yesterday after I got home from a long day at church, but my remarks were all accidentally deleted before I could save them.

To answer your question, yes I am a convert and I did serve a mission as soon as I could after I was baptized. I have served in three bishoprics, as SS Pres, YM President, as Ward Mission leader twice, as Elders Quorum president twice, as Gospel Doctrine teacher, as Seminary teacher, and some other callings for brief stints I suppose which I can't think of.

Denver didn't cause me to doubt the Church. He validated my doubts by opening up the scriptures to me. Ezekiel 33-34 is one crystal clear example.

My doubts started back when I read An Enemy Hath Done This by Ezra Taft Benson, which led me to The Naked Capitalist by Cleon Skousen.

These two courageous, unalloyed patriots convinced me to engage in the animating contest of Liberty. Benson died. And with him the fire of patriotism died in the Church.

Ever since his death, you can't find a talk on Liberty. Benson was like Captain Moroni. He gave stirring speeches on Freedom and Her enemies. He, along with Skousen, exposed the modern Gadianton Robbers. But there's been an unseen hand inside the Church belittling the Patriot cause and quieting any voices who would stand against tyranny and oppression, while at the same time, there's been a dramatic INCREASE in acts of unrighteous dominion and oppression of the Mormon people.

Benson warned specifically against conspirators outside the Church and INSIDE the Church -- yes, I remember a quote where he said there are wolves in sheep's clothing -- the way he said it was the enemies within wore the habiliments of the priesthood (I'll see if I can find the quote). In 1971 IN GENERAL CONFERENCE (see YouTube video) he recommended we read None Dare Call It Conspiracy which was no doubt inspired by Skousen's book mentioned above.

Here's the quote I just found (very easy to find with keyword search of "habiliments"). It was said in a 1967 General Conference talk by Ezra Taft Benson:
In the Book of Mormon the prophet Nephi exclaims: "O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm" (2 Ne. 4:34).

Prophesying of our day, Nephi said, ". . . they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Ne. 28:14).

Yes, it is the precepts of men versus the principles of God. The more we follow the word of God, the less we are deceived, while those who follow the wisdom of men are deceived the most.

Increasingly the Latter-day Saints must choose between the reasoning of men and the revelations of God. This is a crucial choice, for we have those within the Church today who, with their worldly wisdom, are leading some of our members astray. President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that "the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood . . . We should be careful of them."
And by the way, the Church has done its level best to cover up all the patriotic talks given by patriot Mormon leaders (another evidence of apostasy). These talks are never quoted and confined to the memory hole (see 1984 book). You must agree, AI2, the above quote is a quote you will NEVER EVER find uttered by LDS leaders of today, and not since Ezra Taft Benson died. If I were to quote this in ward meeting, and I think I will (!), I would cause quite a stir, if not get some type of reprimand off the record after the fact by some dutiful high councilman following an unwritten command from above.

I believe it is highly likely Benson was neutralized by tares within. He was muzzled. Just as Samuel Smith was likely murdered by tares within a few weeks of Joseph's death. Samuel, as soon as he learned of his brothers' deaths, came home and announced that Joseph had appointed him as the leader should Joseph and Hyrum both die. This was not a quiet rumor, but very public. Even the local non Mormon newspaper had published Samuel's claim. Cousin to Brigham Young was Willard Richards. He did his best to keep Samuel quiet and to wait for Brigham to return back home from abroad. There is ample evidence to support the theory that Samuel was poisoned by a white powder. He figured out (and told his wife) he was being poisoned, but by then it was too late. His body couldn't overcome and reverse the cumulative effect of the poison. The story is recounted at this link. Part One is at this link.

So I had doubts continually creeping in during GBH's tenure. He was so watered down and weak-minded compared to Benson. I wasn't embarrassed by him but not proud of him. Then in 2001 or thereabouts he gave a terrible talk on War and Peace. The worst talk ever given. And he gave a talk saying 9/11 fulfilled Joel's prophecy of the blood moon.

During Hinckley's term, there seemed to be a quiet persecution inside the church of patriots. Nothing was written but there was a chilling effect on anti NWO members. I wondered why the Church leaders were so gutless on fighting tyranny and identifying the enemy. Why did the Church support and associate with the UN?

These questions caused me to wonder if the Brethren were flat out deceived or willing participants. Neither option were suitable for men who were supposed prophets, seers and revelators.

For several years I just decided they were deceived. I refused to think they were willing participants. Eventually I just focused on serving and not rocking the boat. But maybe 10 years ago I made an appt with an area authority. We had lunch together. I was going to ask him how he could explain the Church being silent in the Cause of Liberty. But as we talked I sensed that he wasn't a patriot and fairly asleep as to the battle for Freedom being waged in the world, and who the players were, etc., so I never really broached the subject.

Then Denver came along 22 months ago. He confirmed my suspicions. And used history and scripture to prove the Church is utterly apostate.

As far as Denver being a true prophet, time will tell.
Last edited by underdog on September 26th, 2017, 10:07 am, edited 9 times in total.

underdog
captain of 100
Posts: 495

Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

Arenera wrote: September 25th, 2017, 8:37 pm and Satan did go about, leading away the hearts of the people, tempting them and causing them that they should do great wickedness in the land. (see John Doe)

and the sword of destruction did hang over them, insomuch that they were about to be smitten down by it, and this because of their iniquity.

John Doe repented. Not the example you're looking for.

User avatar
Arenera
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2712

Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

underdog wrote: September 25th, 2017, 9:04 pm
Arenera wrote: September 25th, 2017, 8:37 pm and Satan did go about, leading away the hearts of the people, tempting them and causing them that they should do great wickedness in the land. (see John Doe)

and the sword of destruction did hang over them, insomuch that they were about to be smitten down by it, and this because of their iniquity.

John Doe repented. Not the example you're looking for.
The scenario is a good example. Snuffer wanted a serial sex pervert to get off the hook. He sent in his watchdog Larsen and they harassed the women until they got Doe off the hook. Yes, it is a good example of wickedness.

underdog
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Posts: 495

Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

Arenera wrote: September 25th, 2017, 9:14 pm
underdog wrote: September 25th, 2017, 9:04 pm
Arenera wrote: September 25th, 2017, 8:37 pm and Satan did go about, leading away the hearts of the people, tempting them and causing them that they should do great wickedness in the land. (see John Doe)

and the sword of destruction did hang over them, insomuch that they were about to be smitten down by it, and this because of their iniquity.

John Doe repented. Not the example you're looking for.
The scenario is a good example. Snuffer wanted a serial sex pervert to get off the hook. He sent in his watchdog Larsen and they harassed the women until they got Doe off the hook. Yes, it is a good example of wickedness.
You're making wild, unfounded accusations that you cannot prove. In other words, this is not a good example for your assertion. Bring facts.

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Arenera
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Posts: 2712

Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

Nothing wild except the Snuffer movement. There is a thread at LDSFF all about it, read it.

John Doe had been practicing sexual perversions for years. Years. He was called on the carpet by a women's council. Snuffer is the one who said women could call a council.

Doe saw he was in some trouble, so he got himself a remnant baptism. That fixes everything, right?!

So the women took away his certificate. Whoops, he was on the scripture committee. Well, Snuffer could have none of that, so he went to the first of the council and said Doe was penitent. The women still took away the certificate.

Snuffer couldn't have that, so he sent in the Larsens. Some good arm twisting to get the council annulled.

So udog, you lose both ways. Actually, you lose all ways. Snuffer's appeal at the early part of the movement has been replaced by Snuffer's walking all over his early positions.

Now the remnants idolize Snuffer. Interesting, that's what they said about active Mormons.

You should be working on your principles.

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Mark
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6929

Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Mark »

underdog wrote: September 25th, 2017, 9:03 pm
AI2.0 wrote: September 23rd, 2017, 3:35 pm
And Kirtland and Nauvoo. 3 whiffs. LocatLocation not nearly as important as a repentant people.

I really like your comments. The love gets through.

Thank you.

Do you mind if I ask, are you a Brother or Sister? I assume Sister. What's your story? Convert? Grow up in the Church? Conversion story? Why do you believe?
In this instance, I'm not talking about places that could be considered 'zion', I'm referring to THE place that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith jr. the place that he 'appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints'. In D&C 57:1-3 he named Independence Missouri, saying; ...'wherefore this is the land of promise, and for the place for the city of zion...'

You are correct, I am a sister. :) I'm born and raised in the church, I've got strong LDS roots on both sides of my family; I'm a descendant of Hyrum Smith (there are a few of us on the forum). I had my own struggles when I was much younger--but they made me stronger because I decided that if I was going to remain in the church I needed to be 'all in' and needed to know it was true. Through studying, reading the scriptures, prayer, studying other resources and living the commandments, repenting and making changes, coming to know my Savior, I gained a witness and a firm testimony of the Gospel. I began studying gospel doctrine and church history when I was in my teens, but I also read the challenges put forward by church critics. Learning about the church and the doctrines is a hobby I've enjoyed my whole life. I taught Gospel Doctrine for a total of nine years and in addition to secular studies, I taught Book of Mormon and Bible classes at a private LDS school for a few years. I live in the Salt Lake area though I was raised in California, and am presently serving as a Ward Missionary.

What about you? I believe you said you are a convert and served a mission. Did you only start to have doubts about the church when you were introduced to Snuffer's writings, or was this earlier?
AI2,

I tried to respond yesterday after I got home from a long day at church, but my remarks were all accidentally deleted before I could save them.

To answer your question, yes I am a convert and I did serve a mission as soon as I could after I was baptized. I have served in three bishoprics, as SS Pres, YM President, as Ward Mission leader twice, as Elders Quorum president twice, as Gospel Doctrine teacher, as Seminary teacher, and some other callings for brief stints I suppose which I can't think of.

Denver didn't cause me to doubt the Church. He validated my doubts by opening up the scriptures to me. Ezekiel 33-34 is one crystal clear example.

My doubts started back when I read An Enemy Hath Done This by Ezra Taft Benson, which led me to The Naked Capitalist by Cleon Skousen.

These two courageous, unalloyed patriots convinced me to engage in the animating contest of Liberty. Benson died. And with him the fire of patriotism died in the Church.

Ever since his death, you can't find a talk on Liberty. Benson was like Captain Moroni. He gave stirring speeches on Freedom and Her enemies. He, along with Skousen, exposed the modern Gadianton Robbers. But there's been an unseen hand inside the Church belittling the Patriot cause and quieting any voices who would stand against tyranny and oppression, while at the same time, there's been a dramatic INCREASE in acts of unrighteous dominion and oppression of the Mormon people.

Benson warned specifically against conspirators outside the Church and INSIDE the Church -- yes, I remember a quote where he said there are wolves in sheep's clothing -- the way he said it was the enemies within wore the habiliments of the priesthood (I'll see if I can find the quote). In 1971 IN GENERAL CONFERENCE (see YouTube video) he recommended we read None Dare Call It Conspiracy which was no doubt inspired by Skousen's book mentioned above.

Here's the quote I just found (very easy to find with keyword search of "habiliments"). It was said in a 1967 General Conference talk by Ezra Taft Benson:
In the Book of Mormon the prophet Nephi exclaims: "O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm" (2 Ne. 4:34).

Prophesying of our day, Nephi said, ". . . they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Ne. 28:14).

Yes, it is the precepts of men versus the principles of God. The more we follow the word of God, the less we are deceived, while those who follow the wisdom of men are deceived the most.

Increasingly the Latter-day Saints must choose between the reasoning of men and the revelations of God. This is a crucial choice, for we have those within the Church today who, with their worldly wisdom, are leading some of our members astray. President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that "the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood . . . We should be careful of them."
And by the way, the Church has done its level best to cover up all the patriotic talks given by patriot Mormon leaders (another evidence of apostasy). These talks are never quoted and confined to the memory hole (see 1984 book). You must agree, AI2, the above quote is a quote you will NEVER EVER find uttered by LDS leaders of today, and not since Ezra Taft Benson died. If I were to quote this in ward meeting, and I think I will (!), I would cause quite a stir, if not get some type of reprimand off the record after the fact by some dutiful high councilman following an unwritten command from above.

I believe it is highly likely Benson was neutralized by tares within. He was muzzled. Just as Samuel Smith was likely murdered by tares within a few weeks of Joseph's death.

So I had doubts continually creeping in during GBH's tenure. He was so watered down and weak-minded compared to Benson. I wasn't embarrassed by him but not proud of him. Then in 2001 or thereabouts he gave a terrible talk on War and Peace. The worst talk ever given. And he gave a talk saying 9/11 fulfilled Joel's prophecy of the blood moon.

During Hinckley's term, there seemed to be a quiet persecution inside the church of patriots. Nothing was written but there was a chilling effect on anti NWO members. I wondered why the Church leaders were so gutless on fighting tyranny and identifying the enemy. Why did the Church support and associate with the UN?

These questions caused me to wonder if the Brethren were flat out deceived or willing participants. Neither option were suitable for men who were supposed prophets, seers and revelators.

For several years I just decided they were deceived. I refused to think they were willing participants. Eventually I just focused on serving and not rocking the boat. But maybe 10 years ago I made an appt with an area authority. We had lunch together. I was going to ask him how he could explain the Church being silent in the Cause of Liberty. But as we talked I sensed that he wasn't a patriot and fairly asleep as to the battle for Freedom being waged in the world, and who the players were, etc., so I never really broached the subject.

Then Denver came along 22 months ago. He confirmed my suspicions. And used history and scripture to prove the Church is utterly apostate.

As far as Denver being a true prophet, time will tell.

This post really takes the cake. It doesn't even dawn on you underdog that YOU and those like you who continue to badmouth the Lords restored church are exactly who Pres. Benson was talking about in his warnings of the ravening wolves among the membership. You think for 1 second that Pres. Benson would back you in your efforts to turn people away from the church he faithfully served in for all his days? Dream on. You continue your apostate crusade against the LDS faith yet don't have the integrity to man up and let your ecclesiastical leaders know of your subversive activities on sites like this one and I'm sure others. You are basically clueless when it comes to honoring your covenants. May you fail miserably in your quest to deceive.

underdog
captain of 100
Posts: 495

Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

Mark wrote: September 26th, 2017, 8:35 am
underdog wrote: September 25th, 2017, 9:03 pm
AI2.0 wrote: September 23rd, 2017, 3:35 pm
And Kirtland and Nauvoo. 3 whiffs. LocatLocation not nearly as important as a repentant people.

I really like your comments. The love gets through.

Thank you.

Do you mind if I ask, are you a Brother or Sister? I assume Sister. What's your story? Convert? Grow up in the Church? Conversion story? Why do you believe?
In this instance, I'm not talking about places that could be considered 'zion', I'm referring to THE place that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith jr. the place that he 'appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints'. In D&C 57:1-3 he named Independence Missouri, saying; ...'wherefore this is the land of promise, and for the place for the city of zion...'

You are correct, I am a sister. :) I'm born and raised in the church, I've got strong LDS roots on both sides of my family; I'm a descendant of Hyrum Smith (there are a few of us on the forum). I had my own struggles when I was much younger--but they made me stronger because I decided that if I was going to remain in the church I needed to be 'all in' and needed to know it was true. Through studying, reading the scriptures, prayer, studying other resources and living the commandments, repenting and making changes, coming to know my Savior, I gained a witness and a firm testimony of the Gospel. I began studying gospel doctrine and church history when I was in my teens, but I also read the challenges put forward by church critics. Learning about the church and the doctrines is a hobby I've enjoyed my whole life. I taught Gospel Doctrine for a total of nine years and in addition to secular studies, I taught Book of Mormon and Bible classes at a private LDS school for a few years. I live in the Salt Lake area though I was raised in California, and am presently serving as a Ward Missionary.

What about you? I believe you said you are a convert and served a mission. Did you only start to have doubts about the church when you were introduced to Snuffer's writings, or was this earlier?
AI2,

I tried to respond yesterday after I got home from a long day at church, but my remarks were all accidentally deleted before I could save them.

To answer your question, yes I am a convert and I did serve a mission as soon as I could after I was baptized. I have served in three bishoprics, as SS Pres, YM President, as Ward Mission leader twice, as Elders Quorum president twice, as Gospel Doctrine teacher, as Seminary teacher, and some other callings for brief stints I suppose which I can't think of.

Denver didn't cause me to doubt the Church. He validated my doubts by opening up the scriptures to me. Ezekiel 33-34 is one crystal clear example.

My doubts started back when I read An Enemy Hath Done This by Ezra Taft Benson, which led me to The Naked Capitalist by Cleon Skousen.

These two courageous, unalloyed patriots convinced me to engage in the animating contest of Liberty. Benson died. And with him the fire of patriotism died in the Church.

Ever since his death, you can't find a talk on Liberty. Benson was like Captain Moroni. He gave stirring speeches on Freedom and Her enemies. He, along with Skousen, exposed the modern Gadianton Robbers. But there's been an unseen hand inside the Church belittling the Patriot cause and quieting any voices who would stand against tyranny and oppression, while at the same time, there's been a dramatic INCREASE in acts of unrighteous dominion and oppression of the Mormon people.

Benson warned specifically against conspirators outside the Church and INSIDE the Church -- yes, I remember a quote where he said there are wolves in sheep's clothing -- the way he said it was the enemies within wore the habiliments of the priesthood (I'll see if I can find the quote). In 1971 IN GENERAL CONFERENCE (see YouTube video) he recommended we read None Dare Call It Conspiracy which was no doubt inspired by Skousen's book mentioned above.

Here's the quote I just found (very easy to find with keyword search of "habiliments"). It was said in a 1967 General Conference talk by Ezra Taft Benson:
In the Book of Mormon the prophet Nephi exclaims: "O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm" (2 Ne. 4:34).

Prophesying of our day, Nephi said, ". . . they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Ne. 28:14).

Yes, it is the precepts of men versus the principles of God. The more we follow the word of God, the less we are deceived, while those who follow the wisdom of men are deceived the most.

Increasingly the Latter-day Saints must choose between the reasoning of men and the revelations of God. This is a crucial choice, for we have those within the Church today who, with their worldly wisdom, are leading some of our members astray. President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that "the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood . . . We should be careful of them."
And by the way, the Church has done its level best to cover up all the patriotic talks given by patriot Mormon leaders (another evidence of apostasy). These talks are never quoted and confined to the memory hole (see 1984 book). You must agree, AI2, the above quote is a quote you will NEVER EVER find uttered by LDS leaders of today, and not since Ezra Taft Benson died. If I were to quote this in ward meeting, and I think I will (!), I would cause quite a stir, if not get some type of reprimand off the record after the fact by some dutiful high councilman following an unwritten command from above.

I believe it is highly likely Benson was neutralized by tares within. He was muzzled. Just as Samuel Smith was likely murdered by tares within a few weeks of Joseph's death.

So I had doubts continually creeping in during GBH's tenure. He was so watered down and weak-minded compared to Benson. I wasn't embarrassed by him but not proud of him. Then in 2001 or thereabouts he gave a terrible talk on War and Peace. The worst talk ever given. And he gave a talk saying 9/11 fulfilled Joel's prophecy of the blood moon.

During Hinckley's term, there seemed to be a quiet persecution inside the church of patriots. Nothing was written but there was a chilling effect on anti NWO members. I wondered why the Church leaders were so gutless on fighting tyranny and identifying the enemy. Why did the Church support and associate with the UN?

These questions caused me to wonder if the Brethren were flat out deceived or willing participants. Neither option were suitable for men who were supposed prophets, seers and revelators.

For several years I just decided they were deceived. I refused to think they were willing participants. Eventually I just focused on serving and not rocking the boat. But maybe 10 years ago I made an appt with an area authority. We had lunch together. I was going to ask him how he could explain the Church being silent in the Cause of Liberty. But as we talked I sensed that he wasn't a patriot and fairly asleep as to the battle for Freedom being waged in the world, and who the players were, etc., so I never really broached the subject.

Then Denver came along 22 months ago. He confirmed my suspicions. And used history and scripture to prove the Church is utterly apostate.

As far as Denver being a true prophet, time will tell.

This post really takes the cake. It doesn't even dawn on you underdog that YOU and those like you who continue to badmouth the Lords restored church are exactly who Pres. Benson was talking about in his warnings of the ravening wolves among the membership. You think for 1 second that Pres. Benson would back you in your efforts to turn people away from the church he faithfully served in for all his days? Dream on. You continue your apostate crusade against the LDS faith yet don't have the integrity to man up and let your ecclesiastical leaders know of your subversive activities on sites like this one and I'm sure others. You are basically clueless when it comes to honoring your covenants. May you fail miserably in your quest to deceive.
Apparently Benson was muzzled. Are you familiar with this?

It's from March 1993. Go to page 67. There you will find a GA outside of General Conference OFFICIALLY persecuting people like Ezra Taft Benson!!!

I leave those exclamation points to emphasize something. And that is an absolute horrifying fact.

Benson was still alive at this time. He died in May 1994. And, under "the color of the prophet's blessing", this GA was out saying Mormons who do the following are bordering on apostasy. Here's the quote in context:
On the right: ...Elder Jeppson identified telling signs--"troublesome ideologies"--in a profile of members that leaders should watch for in conservatives. Any member conforming to one or more items may not be cause for concern, but when many or all apply, especially to a fanatical degree, then Church leaders are counseled to intervene. Items in the profile included:

¯ Home schooling;
¯ Leanings toward or membership in the John Birch Society;
¯ Holding study groups; ...
¯ Preoccupation with food storage...
Mark, I'm assuming that MANY of the people here check off on most of these items. I check off on all of them.

So while Benson was incapacitated, GA's were out warning members to not be like Ezra Taft Benson. Talk about nipping the patriot movement within the church in the bud! Pretty bold to do that WHILE the Church's greatest patriot is home incapacitated, wouldn't you say?

I remember the following news from Feb 1994:
First Presidency endorses appointment of 1994 as -International Year of the Family,- by United Nations, organization which currently disabled Ezra Taft Benson has repeatedly denounced as illegal infringement on U.S. sovereignty
One of Benson's grandsons had been claiming that his counselors were making decisions without church president's coherent consultation or approval. I think this grandson was eventually excommunicated? I don't recall, but I seem to recall he was branded as a heretic. This may be the reason why. He may have been sounding the alarm about things happening out of line with his grandfather.

I don't have the time to go back and review all the shenanigans of Monson and Hinckley back then. But I can tell you that NEITHER of them could hold even a candle to the bright shining light of Benson's love of Liberty and Country. You can't find ONE talk (I tried to do this once) where either of Benson's two counselors gave any kind of passionate defense of Liberty or the Constitution -- EVER -- not even going back to 1970 where Lds.org has the GC archived. The LACK of testimony on Liberty and Freedom is, to me, evidence that they don't advocate for it, and if you don't advocate for Liberty, you must like the opposite, which is oppression of Freedom. Perhaps they were just routine victims of our PC culture?

And please don't patronize me for that quote above and say that Benson wasn't aware of some of his brethren in leadership who were not marching shoulder to shoulder with him. He knew. He was in the arena, basically ALONE. Virtually none of his fellow brethren marched with him. What a man of courage Benson was! Don't even try to say the wolves he was referring to were non leaders. He's quoting Christ. Christ was talking about leaders, not just some obscure priesthood holder in some university ward. Benson knew of the cowards all around him. He couldn't conceal his disgust with those ubiquitous cowards. Watch his speeches. It's palpable. He loved Freedom and despised traitors to the Cause. Benson had lots of enemies in the Church. Mostly collectivists who hated America. Surely you will not argue this. If you do, I'll assume you have collectivist tendencies. Maybe you're not hen pecked, as the saying goes, but you have hen house ways.

I'm out of time, AI2, asked me a specific question, and I answered. She asked if Denver was THE reason I doubted the institution, and I gave her the long answer, which I think many people on this Liberty Forum would actually appreciate. It's a walk down memory lane for many patriots who lived in the 1990's.
Last edited by underdog on September 26th, 2017, 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Arenera
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

underdog wrote: September 26th, 2017, 7:10 am
Arenera wrote: September 25th, 2017, 10:03 pm Nothing wild except the Snuffer movement. There is a thread at LDSFF all about it, read it.

John Doe had been practicing sexual perversions for years. Years. He was called on the carpet by a women's council. Snuffer is the one who said women could call a council.

Doe saw he was in some trouble, so he got himself a remnant baptism. That fixes everything, right?!

So the women took away his certificate. Whoops, he was on the scripture committee. Well, Snuffer could have none of that, so he went to the first of the council and said Doe was penitent. The women still took away the certificate.

Snuffer couldn't have that, so he sent in the Larsens. Some good arm twisting to get the council annulled.

So udog, you lose both ways. Actually, you lose all ways. Snuffer's appeal at the early part of the movement has been replaced by Snuffer's walking all over his early positions.

Now the remnants idolize Snuffer. Interesting, that's what they said about active Mormons.

You should be working on your principles.
You're accusing somebody (Denver) of atrocities against human souls (a good parallel would be a serial killer of thousands of people), Yes, and you are his willing companion
Go read the thread. Plenty of facts. Now that you have said the church is utterly apostate, why don't you go meet with your remnant buddies and work on some principles.

Surely, you can't believe the Spirit is guiding you on your crusade against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

underdog
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

Arenera wrote: September 26th, 2017, 11:12 am
underdog wrote: September 26th, 2017, 7:10 am
Arenera wrote: September 25th, 2017, 10:03 pm Nothing wild except the Snuffer movement. There is a thread at LDSFF all about it, read it.

John Doe had been practicing sexual perversions for years. Years. He was called on the carpet by a women's council. Snuffer is the one who said women could call a council.

Doe saw he was in some trouble, so he got himself a remnant baptism. That fixes everything, right?!

So the women took away his certificate. Whoops, he was on the scripture committee. Well, Snuffer could have none of that, so he went to the first of the council and said Doe was penitent. The women still took away the certificate.

Snuffer couldn't have that, so he sent in the Larsens. Some good arm twisting to get the council annulled.

So udog, you lose both ways. Actually, you lose all ways. Snuffer's appeal at the early part of the movement has been replaced by Snuffer's walking all over his early positions.

Now the remnants idolize Snuffer. Interesting, that's what they said about active Mormons.

You should be working on your principles.
You're accusing somebody (Denver) of atrocities against human souls (a good parallel would be a serial killer of thousands of people), Yes, and you are his willing companion
Go read the thread. Plenty of facts. Now that you have said the church is utterly apostate, why don't you go meet with your remnant buddies and work on some principles.

Surely, you can't believe the Spirit is guiding you on your crusade against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
You do make me smile on occasion. I think you're a sweet sister once you peel back some layers. You mean well. Just as Jacob 5 says, the pride is at the top of the tree, and the top has been the taproot of the institutional problems. Verse 48:
And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?
Arenera, you'll have to square your situation with the plain prophecies in the BoM, like the one I quote above from Jacob 5:48.

And I agree, I should spend time on working on the principles.

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Mark
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Mark »

underdog wrote: September 26th, 2017, 10:51 am
Mark wrote: September 26th, 2017, 8:35 am
underdog wrote: September 25th, 2017, 9:03 pm
AI2.0 wrote: September 23rd, 2017, 3:35 pm

In this instance, I'm not talking about places that could be considered 'zion', I'm referring to THE place that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith jr. the place that he 'appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints'. In D&C 57:1-3 he named Independence Missouri, saying; ...'wherefore this is the land of promise, and for the place for the city of zion...'

You are correct, I am a sister. :) I'm born and raised in the church, I've got strong LDS roots on both sides of my family; I'm a descendant of Hyrum Smith (there are a few of us on the forum). I had my own struggles when I was much younger--but they made me stronger because I decided that if I was going to remain in the church I needed to be 'all in' and needed to know it was true. Through studying, reading the scriptures, prayer, studying other resources and living the commandments, repenting and making changes, coming to know my Savior, I gained a witness and a firm testimony of the Gospel. I began studying gospel doctrine and church history when I was in my teens, but I also read the challenges put forward by church critics. Learning about the church and the doctrines is a hobby I've enjoyed my whole life. I taught Gospel Doctrine for a total of nine years and in addition to secular studies, I taught Book of Mormon and Bible classes at a private LDS school for a few years. I live in the Salt Lake area though I was raised in California, and am presently serving as a Ward Missionary.

What about you? I believe you said you are a convert and served a mission. Did you only start to have doubts about the church when you were introduced to Snuffer's writings, or was this earlier?
AI2,

I tried to respond yesterday after I got home from a long day at church, but my remarks were all accidentally deleted before I could save them.

To answer your question, yes I am a convert and I did serve a mission as soon as I could after I was baptized. I have served in three bishoprics, as SS Pres, YM President, as Ward Mission leader twice, as Elders Quorum president twice, as Gospel Doctrine teacher, as Seminary teacher, and some other callings for brief stints I suppose which I can't think of.

Denver didn't cause me to doubt the Church. He validated my doubts by opening up the scriptures to me. Ezekiel 33-34 is one crystal clear example.

My doubts started back when I read An Enemy Hath Done This by Ezra Taft Benson, which led me to The Naked Capitalist by Cleon Skousen.

These two courageous, unalloyed patriots convinced me to engage in the animating contest of Liberty. Benson died. And with him the fire of patriotism died in the Church.

Ever since his death, you can't find a talk on Liberty. Benson was like Captain Moroni. He gave stirring speeches on Freedom and Her enemies. He, along with Skousen, exposed the modern Gadianton Robbers. But there's been an unseen hand inside the Church belittling the Patriot cause and quieting any voices who would stand against tyranny and oppression, while at the same time, there's been a dramatic INCREASE in acts of unrighteous dominion and oppression of the Mormon people.

Benson warned specifically against conspirators outside the Church and INSIDE the Church -- yes, I remember a quote where he said there are wolves in sheep's clothing -- the way he said it was the enemies within wore the habiliments of the priesthood (I'll see if I can find the quote). In 1971 IN GENERAL CONFERENCE (see YouTube video) he recommended we read None Dare Call It Conspiracy which was no doubt inspired by Skousen's book mentioned above.

Here's the quote I just found (very easy to find with keyword search of "habiliments"). It was said in a 1967 General Conference talk by Ezra Taft Benson:
In the Book of Mormon the prophet Nephi exclaims: "O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm" (2 Ne. 4:34).

Prophesying of our day, Nephi said, ". . . they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Ne. 28:14).

Yes, it is the precepts of men versus the principles of God. The more we follow the word of God, the less we are deceived, while those who follow the wisdom of men are deceived the most.

Increasingly the Latter-day Saints must choose between the reasoning of men and the revelations of God. This is a crucial choice, for we have those within the Church today who, with their worldly wisdom, are leading some of our members astray. President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that "the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood . . . We should be careful of them."
And by the way, the Church has done its level best to cover up all the patriotic talks given by patriot Mormon leaders (another evidence of apostasy). These talks are never quoted and confined to the memory hole (see 1984 book). You must agree, AI2, the above quote is a quote you will NEVER EVER find uttered by LDS leaders of today, and not since Ezra Taft Benson died. If I were to quote this in ward meeting, and I think I will (!), I would cause quite a stir, if not get some type of reprimand off the record after the fact by some dutiful high councilman following an unwritten command from above.

I believe it is highly likely Benson was neutralized by tares within. He was muzzled. Just as Samuel Smith was likely murdered by tares within a few weeks of Joseph's death.

So I had doubts continually creeping in during GBH's tenure. He was so watered down and weak-minded compared to Benson. I wasn't embarrassed by him but not proud of him. Then in 2001 or thereabouts he gave a terrible talk on War and Peace. The worst talk ever given. And he gave a talk saying 9/11 fulfilled Joel's prophecy of the blood moon.

During Hinckley's term, there seemed to be a quiet persecution inside the church of patriots. Nothing was written but there was a chilling effect on anti NWO members. I wondered why the Church leaders were so gutless on fighting tyranny and identifying the enemy. Why did the Church support and associate with the UN?

These questions caused me to wonder if the Brethren were flat out deceived or willing participants. Neither option were suitable for men who were supposed prophets, seers and revelators.

For several years I just decided they were deceived. I refused to think they were willing participants. Eventually I just focused on serving and not rocking the boat. But maybe 10 years ago I made an appt with an area authority. We had lunch together. I was going to ask him how he could explain the Church being silent in the Cause of Liberty. But as we talked I sensed that he wasn't a patriot and fairly asleep as to the battle for Freedom being waged in the world, and who the players were, etc., so I never really broached the subject.

Then Denver came along 22 months ago. He confirmed my suspicions. And used history and scripture to prove the Church is utterly apostate.

As far as Denver being a true prophet, time will tell.

This post really takes the cake. It doesn't even dawn on you underdog that YOU and those like you who continue to badmouth the Lords restored church are exactly who Pres. Benson was talking about in his warnings of the ravening wolves among the membership. You think for 1 second that Pres. Benson would back you in your efforts to turn people away from the church he faithfully served in for all his days? Dream on. You continue your apostate crusade against the LDS faith yet don't have the integrity to man up and let your ecclesiastical leaders know of your subversive activities on sites like this one and I'm sure others. You are basically clueless when it comes to honoring your covenants. May you fail miserably in your quest to deceive.
Apparently Benson was muzzled. Are you familiar with this?

It's from March 1993. Go to page 67. There you will find a GA outside of General Conference OFFICIALLY persecuting people like Ezra Taft Benson!!!

I leave those exclamation points to emphasize something. And that is an absolute horrifying fact.

Benson was still alive at this time. He died in May 1994. And, under "the color of the prophet's blessing", this GA was out saying Mormons who do the following are bordering on apostasy. Here's the quote in context:
On the right: ...Elder Jeppson identified telling signs--"troublesome ideologies"--in a profile of members that leaders should watch for in conservatives. Any member conforming to one or more items may not be cause for concern, but when many or all apply, especially to a fanatical degree, then Church leaders are counseled to intervene. Items in the profile included:

¯ Home schooling;
¯ Leanings toward or membership in the John Birch Society;
¯ Holding study groups; ...
¯ Preoccupation with food storage...
Mark, I'm assuming that MANY of the people here check off on most of these items. I check off on all of them.

So while Benson was incapacitated, GA's were out warning members to not be like Ezra Taft Benson. Talk about nipping the patriot movement within the church in the bud! Pretty bold to do that WHILE the Church's greatest patriot is home incapacitated, wouldn't you say?

I remember the following news from Feb 1994:
First Presidency endorses appointment of 1994 as -International Year of the Family,- by United Nations, organization which currently disabled Ezra Taft Benson has repeatedly denounced as illegal infringement on U.S. sovereignty
One of Benson's grandsons had been claiming that his counselors were making decisions without church president's coherent consultation or approval. I think this grandson was eventually excommunicated? I don't recall, but I seem to recall he was branded as a heretic. This may be the reason why. He may have been sounding the alarm about things happening out of line with his grandfather.

I don't have the time to go back and review all the shenanigans of Monson and Hinckley back then. But I can tell you that NEITHER of them could hold even a candle to the bright shining light of Benson's love of Liberty and Country. You can't find ONE talk (I tried to do this once) where either of Benson's two counselors gave any kind of passionate defense of Liberty or the Constitution -- EVER -- not even going back to 1970 where Lds.org has the GC archived. The LACK of testimony on Liberty and Freedom is, to me, evidence that they don't advocate for it, and if you don't advocate for Liberty, you must like the opposite, which is oppression of Freedom. Perhaps they were just routine victims of our PC culture?

And please don't patronize me for that quote above and say that Benson wasn't aware of some of his brethren in leadership who were not marching shoulder to shoulder with him. He knew. He was in the arena, basically ALONE. Virtually none of his fellow brethren marched with him. What a man of courage Benson was! Don't even try to say the wolves he was referring to were non leaders. He's quoting Christ. Christ was talking about leaders, not just some obscure priesthood holder in some university ward. Benson knew of the cowards all around him. He couldn't conceal his disgust with those ubiquitous cowards. Watch his speeches. It's palpable. He loved Freedom and despised traitors to the Cause. Benson had lots of enemies in the Church. Mostly collectivists who hated America. Surely you will not argue this. If you do, I'll assume you have collectivist tendencies. Maybe you're not hen pecked, as the saying goes, but you have hen house ways.

I'm out of time, AI2, asked me a specific question, and I answered. She asked if Denver was THE reason I doubted the institution, and I gave her the long answer, which I think many people on this Liberty Forum would actually appreciate. It's a walk down memory lane for many patriots who lived in the 1990's.

You sound EXACTLY like some of my family members and friends who left the church and joined up with Jim Harmstons TLC movement. You are just using all their talking points. I know you would have joined that movement had you been approached. That's what the accusers of the Brethren do. They just regurgitate the same old talking points over and over again. You dont have a clue about most of the things you are accusing the Brethren of. I knew some of Pres Bensons grandchildren personally and your conspiracy crap is so far from the truth it's laughable. Particularly your casting aspersions on Pres. Hinckley and Pres. Monson who faithfully served in the 1st Presidency with Pres. Benson. You would have fallen for Steve Bensons deceitful diatribe about his Grandpa hook line and sinker. I am amazed with your accusatory tone toward the LDS faith that you still attend the LDS church. Most just can't pretend when they buy into all the deceit. I really wonder if you are being truthful here. I doubt it.

underdog
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Posts: 495

Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

Mark,

Perhaps there are no talking points to regurgitate? I'd never heard of Harmston before you mentioned him. No clue about his talking points.

Sounds like he was the patriot type of Mormon who got deceived and carried away with priestcraft and sex (polygamy). Sounds like a Brigham Young type of man but not near as accomplished.

Maybe some of these apostates you mention had some things right. Like Bo Gritz. I recall him from that 1992 election. He was spot on politically. He got mire votes than Clinton did in Utah. Loved what he had to say. He sounded like Benson. I don't know much about Bo. I learned he had converted to Mormonism which I thought was cool.

Then the Church PC leaders (unnamed of course) go on a purge of true patriots. The Church nips that in the bud (per the link I shared above). What's a patriotic Mormon to do? A patriot had a difficult choice back then. Let clueless, deceived leaders oppress you, or speak out like General Moroni did in Alma 60 in his letter to Pahoran. At that time I chose to stand down. I went mainstream. I fell into line, sort of. I've NEVER been PC. But I knew what made my priesthood leaders uncomfortable and I always stayed on track with the gospel and esp the BoM.

I remember getting "talked to" by a henchman (a friend who was just following orders) on the high council for me teaching in Seminary to 30 youth that there are modern Gadianton Robbers today. I recommended Gary Allen's book, as President Benson did at the 1971 GC. Then one anonymous parent complained to the stake president and he sent his guy to investigate. There was nothing to find. Everybody knew I taught the truth. I kept teaching the truth of modern secret combinations as we went through the BoM. I told the stake to have the parent come talk to me directly. That I would listen. The parent didn't take me up. Nothing more happened.

But isn't it interesting how exposing the very EXISTENCE of secret combinations makes the Church very, very uneasy. Why do you think this is, Mark?


You ridicule my "conspiracy crap".

Was Joseph murdered by a conspiracy?

Yes.

Who were the conspirators, who were on the INSIDE? Who were Joseph's Judases?

We don't know.

I hope you aren't naive to think there were no active Mormon leaders involved.

I haven't "bought into anything" save that the BoM prophesies that there will be a secret combination that seeks to destroy the liberty of ALL peoples, kindreds, tongues, and nations. Ummm, that would include all Mormon institutions, including our beloved Church. You see the assault on Liberty WITHIN the Church through censorship and unrighteous dominion. This is why you don't hear the Church speaking of Freedom and the Constitution. The Church long ago, with Benson's death, gave up the fight against conspiracies and the fight for Liberty. We are "neutral"/ "lukewarm", haven't you heard?


I don't think you'd be left alone in the Church if you started pointing out that Zion's Bank is part of the Federal Reserve System (the financial apparatus of the global conspiracy to destroy America and bring us into a NWO). I don't think Harold B Lee was a fan of that arrangement. He didn't last very long. I know that's just speculation. But Moroni's prophecies are fact. Read them in Ether 8.

What "truthfulness" of my recent testimony above do you doubt? You doubt me for some reason. But I'm real. And I'm being completely honest about my experiences.

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Arenera
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

The words of underdog:

The Church is utterly apostate.
Denver, atrocities against human souls (a good parallel would be a serial killer of thousands of people),

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