Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

[Arenera]

Jesef, I'm sorry you lack faith. Underdog is a good example of faith. Attending church with Mormons because he likes the sociality, not the leaders or the doctrine.

I bet underdog likes a little wine when he takes the sacrament. Probably some coffee too. And why not a beer since it isn't a commandment.

Well, Denver almost didn't make the covenant with the remnants because they were contending and bickering. They even need principles now.

[Jesef]

Remnant Friends,

How can you test, validate, or know the truth of a spiritual (physically unprovable) claim?

For example, the Book of Mormon - is it true? Is it what it claims it is (a modern translation by the gift and power of God of an ancient scriptural record, etc.)? How can you really know that? You can read it. You can try to discern it. The book promises a manifestation by the power of the Holy Ghost simply by reading it, pondering it, and humbly asking in faith whether or not it is true. A person probably won't really know what that power is until they've experienced it. I experienced it at quite a young age. Why do others not experience it? I don't know. I can only speak for myself. I have met people who were willing to upend their lives and be disowned by their families (not very many) without really knowing if it was true - most of these people felt something was pulling them in the direction of being baptized and joining the Church. Please don't miss my point here, though - I have experienced the power of the Holy Ghost on several occasions, including the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. All these experiences have occurred as an active member of the Church. So, having experienced that power, on several occasions, why would I entertain the revolutionary claims of a possible pretender false prophet whose grandiose message and claims are not validated by that same power? Why would I upend my life and family without divine authentication? You guys are making excuses (probably to justify your own behavior - that is another feature of confirmation bias - belief often changes to match behavior). Excuses that then turn into accusations - such as, that I have no faith, or I am unrepentant, or I am blackmailing The Lord, or whatever. Hogwash. Bogus. Look before you leap. Would you jump off a cliff just because a voice (pretending to be God) told you to? If you would, then your faith is blind and absurd, it is fanatical. Would you sacrifice one of your children if a voice (pretending to be God) told you to? I hope not. If you would, you're a fanatic. God is not absurd. God is not a fascist either. God is Love and the most sensible/rational and intelligent Being in existence. And, yes, I know that Being well enough to know that They are willing to validate extremely unlikely claims prior to taking irreversible and potentially catastrophic actions. They are also willing to reason with and persuade, not just command and expect blind obedience. They are quite patient and understanding and compassionate of our lack of knowledge/certainty and discernment, etc.

Well, I've noticed a lot of red-flags and contradictions in Denver's teachings. He makes a lot of self-aggrandizing comments and references to himself. These are quite similar of people with grandiose delusions of self-importance. He's compared himself to all the great ones: Melchizedek, Enoch, Joseph. He's implied strongly that he is the mighty and strong one AND the Davidic Servant. I read his "apostolic witness" and found that he couldn't help embellishing it with innovative details such as Christ suffering in waves and then healing himself and processing each form of suffering - he loves to pepper his innovative insights into everything. And you guys are just eating it up like it's Gospel truth. The Holy Ghost didn't validate any of his innovations to me. Also, his "translation" or "revelation" of the testimony of John smacked of the same type of embellishment. And his Prayer for Covenant and Answer were as wordy and Denver-ish as they could be. The Lord's response didn't sound like the same Being who dictated Joseph Smith's revelations in D&C. I could go on and on. "Servants", "the last time"/"for the last time", and, yes, "the power of the Holy Ghost". The lack of power, the lack of signs, the lack of pretty much everything one would expect from the powerful/ultimate prophet destined to build ZION. So, yes, I expect The Lord to answer with as much power as He has previously on equally cosmic/salvific claims and issues. I won't jump off a bridge without strong assurance. You guys haven't even landed yet and you're already encouraging others to jump. But you show no evidence of flight, just free-fall.

Btw, several of my nephews just returned from missions and apparently the Holy Ghost is still drawing people into the Church in this same manner - doesn't that contradict what Snuffer is saying? That even the Aaronic Priesthood authority is invalid in the Church? Also, several of these recent baptized converts reported experiences upon being confirmed that I could only account as being the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost - this definitely contradicts Snuffer's story (no Melchizedek Priesthood) - or are all things functioning in the LDS Church, still, according to people's faith? Wouldn't that mean the Church really is not defunct/rejected - but rather the same as it ever has been? Besides, you guys aren't taking the Gospel/Doctrine of Christ and the Book of Mormon and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and the Restoration to the whole world - you can barely keep your fellowships from falling apart.

[ajax]

It always comes down to whose HG is better/bigger than the other guys HG.

I know a Baptist woman who when baptized in the Baptist church, felt fire and the HG. She said she didn't feel anything when baptized in the LDS Church. What does it mean? Who knows. Anecdote vs anecdote.

It's kinda weird to think that these decisions are akin to jumping off a cliff. That's whack "religious" thinking in my mind. That's not sensible/rational/intelligent. Which unseen/unknown fairy tale is better? Maybe it'd be better if we took our minds out of the clouds and just lived well.

[drtanner]

It always comes down to whose HG is better/bigger than the other guys HG.

I know a Baptist woman who when baptized in the Baptist church, felt fire and the HG. She said she didn't feel anything when baptized in the LDS Church. What does it mean? Who knows. Anecdote vs anecdote.

It's kinda weird to think that these decisions are akin to jumping off a cliff. That's whack "religious" thinking in my mind. That's not sensible/rational/intelligent. Which unseen/unknown fairy tale is better? Maybe it'd be better if we took our minds out of the clouds and just lived well.

The JS story with peepstones, secret polygamy/polyandry, 14 yr old girls, angels with swords, murder etc is just as whack and irrational to most people. I mean you seriously can't just shrug that stuff off right? That makes you on par in the psycho department as your close remnant friends.

So what has it come down to for you ajax? Genuinely interested in what you have come to know as truth and how you have gained that witness.

[ajax]

It always comes down to whose HG is better/bigger than the other guys HG.

I know a Baptist woman who when baptized in the Baptist church, felt fire and the HG. She said she didn't feel anything when baptized in the LDS Church. What does it mean? Who knows. Anecdote vs anecdote.

It's kinda weird to think that these decisions are akin to jumping off a cliff. That's whack "religious" thinking in my mind. That's not sensible/rational/intelligent. Which unseen/unknown fairy tale is better? Maybe it'd be better if we took our minds out of the clouds and just lived well.

The JS story with peepstones, secret polygamy/polyandry, 14 yr old girls, angels with swords, murder etc is just as whack and irrational to most people. I mean you seriously can't just shrug that stuff off right? That makes you on par in the psycho department as your close remnant friends.

So what has it come down to for you ajax? Genuinely interested in what you have come to know as truth and how you have gained that witness.

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/141-32-41.pdf

[drtanner]

Really interesting read. So embrace all truth and care for those in need, true Mormonism. So how do you personally discern truth from non truth in order to discern what to embrace as real truth?

[Thomas]

Remnant Friends,

How can you test, validate, or know the truth of a spiritual (physically unprovable) claim?

For example, the Book of Mormon - is it true? Is it what it claims it is (a modern translation by the gift and power of God of an ancient scriptural record, etc.)? How can you really know that? You can read it. You can try to discern it. The book promises a manifestation by the power of the Holy Ghost simply by reading it, pondering it, and humbly asking in faith whether or not it is true. A person probably won't really know what that power is until they've experienced it. I experienced it at quite a young age. Why do others not experience it? I don't know. I can only speak for myself. I have met people who were willing to upend their lives and be disowned by their families (not very many) without really knowing if it was true - most of these people felt something was pulling them in the direction of being baptized and joining the Church. Please don't miss my point here, though - I have experienced the power of the Holy Ghost on several occasions, including the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. All these experiences have occurred as an active member of the Church. So, having experienced that power, on several occasions, why would I entertain the revolutionary claims of a possible pretender false prophet whose grandiose message and claims are not validated by that same power? Why would I upend my life and family without divine authentication? You guys are making excuses (probably to justify your own behavior - that is another feature of confirmation bias - belief often changes to match behavior). Excuses that then turn into accusations - such as, that I have no faith, or I am unrepentant, or I am blackmailing The Lord, or whatever. Hogwash. Bogus. Look before you leap. Would you jump off a cliff just because a voice (pretending to be God) told you to? If you would, then your faith is blind and absurd, it is fanatical. Would you sacrifice one of your children if a voice (pretending to be God) told you to? I hope not. If you would, you're a fanatic. God is not absurd. God is not a fascist either. God is Love and the most sensible/rational and intelligent Being in existence. And, yes, I know that Being well enough to know that They are willing to validate extremely unlikely claims prior to taking irreversible and potentially catastrophic actions. They are also willing to reason with and persuade, not just command and expect blind obedience. They are quite patient and understanding and compassionate of our lack of knowledge/certainty and discernment, etc.

Well, I've noticed a lot of red-flags and contradictions in Denver's teachings. He makes a lot of self-aggrandizing comments and references to himself. These are quite similar of people with grandiose delusions of self-importance. He's compared himself to all the great ones: Melchizedek, Enoch, Joseph. He's implied strongly that he is the mighty and strong one AND the Davidic Servant. I read his "apostolic witness" and found that he couldn't help embellishing it with innovative details such as Christ suffering in waves and then healing himself and processing each form of suffering - he loves to pepper his innovative insights into everything. And you guys are just eating it up like it's Gospel truth. The Holy Ghost didn't validate any of his innovations to me. Also, his "translation" or "revelation" of the testimony of John smacked of the same type of embellishment. And his Prayer for Covenant and Answer were as wordy and Denver-ish as they could be. The Lord's response didn't sound like the same Being who dictated Joseph Smith's revelations in D&C. I could go on and on. "Servants", "the last time"/"for the last time", and, yes, "the power of the Holy Ghost". The lack of power, the lack of signs, the lack of pretty much everything one would expect from the powerful/ultimate prophet destined to build ZION. So, yes, I expect The Lord to answer with as much power as He has previously on equally cosmic/salvific claims and issues. I won't jump off a bridge without strong assurance. You guys haven't even landed yet and you're already encouraging others to jump. But you show no evidence of flight, just free-fall.

Btw, several of my nephews just returned from missions and apparently the Holy Ghost is still drawing people into the Church in this same manner - doesn't that contradict what Snuffer is saying? That even the Aaronic Priesthood authority is invalid in the Church? Also, several of these recent baptized converts reported experiences upon being confirmed that I could only account as being the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost - this definitely contradicts Snuffer's story (no Melchizedek Priesthood) - or are all things functioning in the LDS Church, still, according to people's faith? Wouldn't that mean the Church really is not defunct/rejected - but rather the same as it ever has been? Besides, you guys aren't taking the Gospel/Doctrine of Christ and the Book of Mormon and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and the Restoration to the whole world - you can barely keep your fellowships from falling apart.

Well, evidently, the Holy Ghost is drawing people into the Seventh Day Adventist church at a much greater rate.

I guess, it comes down to this, can you detect truth from error and like I said, it is open book test?, You want the voice of thunder, instead of the still small voice that instructs and teaches. God has explained it to me in great detail as I have said many times now. He has never commanded or threatened.

When Christ declared, he was the Son of God, almost all his followers deserted him, in spite of many of them seeing him perform miracles. So I guess, it doesn't surprise me that some will be turned off by any claim. Whatever it is everyone has in their head about how a prophet should look or act like, I guess the real ones don't match up. Almost everyone gets it wrong. I wonder how you would have done with Isaiah, going around naked, preaching repentance or Ezekiel baking bread using dung as the fuel for the fire. Something the Jews would have considered unholy, impure, defiled and certainly nothing a holy man of God would do. Only a crazy man would walk around naked or bake bread using excrement for the fuel. It's no wonder that almost no one believed them. They accused Christ of being unholy because he did not observe their cleansing ritual before eating. It would be like a prophet coming among us drinking alcohol and smoking.

That is the way God works. It is the way the test works. You will have to chose the right when so many things point to it being wrong, except for the message being preached. Is it authentic? The spirit has taught me that we are so similar to the Jews with their traditions, which they considered made them righteous. The ritual cleansings, the sacrifices etc. Us with the word of wisdom and the temple work, home teaching etc.. Yet we let the poor suffer and die on the door steps of the temple. Its the same thing the Jews did. They took their traditions as Godliness while they neglected the true gospel. We live in competition with each other.

We don't live the sermon on the mount but we think keeping two parts of the word of wisdom and a little tithing is what makes someone righteous. Maybe throw in some busy work like home teaching or indexing and you are golden.

[underdog]

Remnant Friends,

Well, I've noticed a lot of red-flags and contradictions in Denver's teachings. He makes a lot of self-aggrandizing comments and references to himself. These are quite similar of people with grandiose delusions of self-importance.

Btw, several of my nephews just returned from missions and apparently the Holy Ghost is still drawing people into the Church in this same manner - doesn't that contradict what Snuffer is saying? That even the Aaronic Priesthood authority is invalid in the Church? Also, several of these recent baptized converts reported experiences upon being confirmed that I could only account as being the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost - this definitely contradicts Snuffer's story (no Melchizedek Priesthood) - or are all things functioning in the LDS Church, still, according to people's faith? Wouldn't that mean the Church really is not defunct/rejected - but rather the same as it ever has been?

I've read and heard Denver more than the average bear by now. Mt testimony is that he does everything humanly possible to minimize himself and to deflect attention from himself and to the Lord or to his message, and that he even ridicules and condemns those who fawn over him or appear to follow him. Honestly, what more could he do? If I were in his shoes, I don't know what I'd do differently. It seems like he's being very deliberate about avoiding priestcraft to the point of being a recluse and appearing disagreeable and aloof. He tries to take a back seat in every meeting, activity or venture. And yet, he's commanded to say certain things, so he HAS TO speak what he's been commanded. And then WHEN he speaks, he's "self-aggrandizing"and "referring" to himself. Holy cow. He's truly in a no-win situation.

I have gobs of Denver quotes to back up my testimony that he's humble and meek and even self deprecating. On the few occasions I've seen him in person, as soon as he's done delivering his message, he splits. He doesn't like to be the center of attention and avoids the attention almost to the point of being a hermit with no apparent comfort in social settings. Maybe he is a hermit? Idk. Or maybe he's just trying to steer clear of the spotlight.

The man must be a crazy and a foolish businessman because a few days ago he paid around $25,000 (estimated) for a full-page ad in the LA Times, advertising his speech TOMORROW (Thurs at 7 pm Pacific Time). Livestreaming available from his his website

On this same website, his "self aggrandizing" side of him is in full display at this "About the Speaker" webpage.

Mr. Snuffer has authored 16 volumes on Mormonism that cover both Mormon history and doctrine (one of which is now translated into Spanish). Mr. Snuffer maintains a website where he publishes short essays and posts links to his books, talks, and longer essays. He taught for three years at Brigham Young University's Summertime "Education Week" on the BYU campus in Provo, Utah. He has presented papers at the annual Sunstone Symposium in Salt Lake City, Utah for several years. (read the rest of the bland intro at the link.)

For a man who touts himself as having a message from God (and is very similar to Jonah preaching to Nineveh down to the same eerie celestial detail of the solar eclipse occurring just before Jonah's ministry begins), that description above is woefully pathetic as far as generating any excitement for his upcoming talk. For the casual Christian, who the hell cares if some exed Mormon author and practicing attorney is coming to town! Yawn! From a marketing or "get people's attention" standpoint, one would think he could have spiced up the ad he took out by declaring that he is sent from God to the people of LA like Noah was sent. That may have persuaded a reporter to write an article. That could have ended up a city-wide or nationwide story. But all he did was quote mostly scripture, and then he actually threw Christian ministers and their churches under the bus, basically guaranteeing a cold welcome by the local clergy! Perhaps based on what he says tomorrow night, a Dallas reporter may have some material for the Dallas newspaper. Perhaps Denver may even get some national exposure. I'm guessing this will in fact occur, since we're in the digital, Information Age and since Denver does purport to be a prophet in the same vein of any OT prophet. I don't see how greater exposure is unavoidable. I ask Jesef, IF national or even worldwide exposure came via the media, would this be by the "power of the Holy Ghost?" It's a good question. Lehi's words could have only been heard by those in earshot. Imagine if every inhabitant of Jerusalem back in 600 BC was informed of what he was saying by news articles on their iPhone or through social media. Contrast the "reach" of Denver compared to ANY prophet in the past.

It was miraculously prophesied that Joseph's name would be had for good and evil among all men. What an astounding prophesy. Denver may very well help fulfill that prophesy this year with his 3 talks and get to "self aggrandize" along the way.

As to your last concern, Denver was clear that the priesthood of the LEADERS was forfeited when they kicked against the pricks, persecuted him, and fought against God (DC 121).

Denver said in Talk #10:

Section 121 is a warning to church leaders. It is addressing the powerful, not the powerless. It is addressing those who occupy the seats of authority over others. Only those who claim the right to control, compel, and exercise dominion, are warned against persecuting the saints, who believe the religion and practice it as I did from the time of my conversion. My excommunication was an abuse of authority. Therefore, as soon as the decision was made, the Lord terminated the priesthood authority of the stake presidency and every member of the High Council who sustained this decision, which was unanimous. Thereafter, I appealed to the First Presidency, outlining the involvement of the 12 and the 70. The appeal gave notice to them all.20 The appeal was summarily denied.

Read the before and after comments. They are very enlightening and instructive.

Denver specified it was the LEADERS' priesthood and authority which was lost. The ties to the Lord were severed. Matt 10:40: He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in casting me out of the church. At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.21 They have not practiced what He requires. The Lord has brought about His purposes. This has been in His heart all along. He has chosen to use small means to accomplish it, but He always uses the smallest of means to fulfill His purposes.

None of this was my doing. The Lord's strange act, was not, could not, be planned by me. Was not, could not, have been controlled by me. It was not anticipated by me, or even understood by me, until after the Lord had accomplished His will, and made it apparent to me on the evening of May 1, 2014. He alone has done this. He is the author of all of this.

*21 Meaning the leaders who exercised control, compulsion and dominion, and not the powerless who had no part in the affair.

He wasn't talking about the rank and file's priesthood, unless you are FOR using unrighteous dominion to cast him out. Most Mormons (esp outside the west) don't even know about Denver Snuffer. And many who DO know about him have been so badly propagandized that they think he's evil and wrong without knowing the facts. If the masses did know, I believe there'd be a revolt overnight, or at least a true schism...IF the truth was known.

If there was a serious debate (with proper facts given) in Sunday Schools throughout the world, I believe a major schism would happen overnight in the Church.

That day WILL come. There will be a "great division."

The Church is engaged in a massive cover-up of not just Denver's excommunication, but of things I've mentioned like Elder Poelman's refilmed 1984 talk, like the WW excerpts secretly added in 1981 to OD1, like the LoF being removed in 1921, like Church history, like ANYTHING which puts the institution in an unfavorable light, like the precipitous decline of tithing "revenues", like the reasons for stagnate/ declining growth among the gentiles, like the reasons for 80+% of high school grads in the Church going less active, like the number of convert baptisms, like an accounting of how sacred tithing monies are being spent (malls, apartment complexes, farms, etc.) , like how much money and compensation are GA's, mission presidents receiving, like Joseph's Last Vision, etc., etc. The list goes on. MASSIVE cover-ups have been going on for years, but the Lord prophecies that all hidden things will be brought to light.

That's why it's not just sad, but astonishingly stupid, for the Church to think they could stem the truth from getting out. No UNHALLOWED HAND can stop the truth from filling the whole earth!!!! The Church is at least partially unhallowed, as evidenced by all the corruption hidden in plain view. And yet, there still is good in the Church. Thank goodness there is still good. It's not a zero sum apostasy. To what degree it's corrupt is the question.

[Mark]

It always comes down to whose HG is better/bigger than the other guys HG.

I know a Baptist woman who when baptized in the Baptist church, felt fire and the HG. She said she didn't feel anything when baptized in the LDS Church. What does it mean? Who knows. Anecdote vs anecdote.

It's kinda weird to think that these decisions are akin to jumping off a cliff. That's whack "religious" thinking in my mind. That's not sensible/rational/intelligent. Which unseen/unknown fairy tale is better? Maybe it'd be better if we took our minds out of the clouds and just lived well.

The JS story with peepstones, secret polygamy/polyandry, 14 yr old girls, angels with swords, murder etc is just as whack and irrational to most people. I mean you seriously can't just shrug that stuff off right? That makes you on par in the psycho department as your close remnant friends.

So what has it come down to for you ajax? Genuinely interested in what you have come to know as truth and how you have gained that witness.

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/141-32-41.pdf

Its easy to just make generalizations and deem oneself to be living Christs gospel without rolling up your sleeves and getting dirty doing the difficult things. How do you claim to be part of the body of Christ without actively participating in building up the Kingdom of God on earth? Those who actually live the principles of consecration by GENEROUSLY giving of their time and talents and possessions to build up and strengthen and support the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints established in this final dispensation thru the authority of the Priesthood can lay claim on being part of the body of Christ. Those who just talk a good talk but don't actually walk the walk not so much. I like this quote from Terrill Givens.

"The church is a place to worship, to serve others, to learn to get along with people we might not choose as neighbors or family, and to find kinship with a large and timeless community of disciples. It is a workshop for the soul. But ultimately, we are responsible for our own life of discipleship, for finding spiritual nourishment in our own sacred spaces. At the same time, we are part of the body of Christ- and we can influence the collective only if we are part of it. As an outspoken President once noted, " It Is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena."

Those who separate themselves from the body of Saints and go do their own thing are not living up to the Priesthood covenants that they have solemnly Covenanted to do while in the house of the Lord. Their energies are not to build up the collective body in love and friendship and patience in preparation for Zion. They have become a law unto themselves. That is selfish. It is not Zion like at all.

[Mark]

Remnant Friends,

Well, I've noticed a lot of red-flags and contradictions in Denver's teachings. He makes a lot of self-aggrandizing comments and references to himself. These are quite similar of people with grandiose delusions of self-importance.

Btw, several of my nephews just returned from missions and apparently the Holy Ghost is still drawing people into the Church in this same manner - doesn't that contradict what Snuffer is saying? That even the Aaronic Priesthood authority is invalid in the Church? Also, several of these recent baptized converts reported experiences upon being confirmed that I could only account as being the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost - this definitely contradicts Snuffer's story (no Melchizedek Priesthood) - or are all things functioning in the LDS Church, still, according to people's faith? Wouldn't that mean the Church really is not defunct/rejected - but rather the same as it ever has been?

I've read and heard Denver more than the average bear by now. Mt testimony is that he does everything humanly possible to minimize himself and to deflect attention from himself and to the Lord or to his message, and that he even ridicules and condemns those who fawn over him or appear to follow him. Honestly, what more could he do? If I were in his shoes, I don't know what I'd do differently. It seems like he's being very deliberate about avoiding priestcraft to the point of being a recluse and appearing disagreeable and aloof. He tries to take a back seat in every meeting, activity or venture. And yet, he's commanded to say certain things, so he HAS TO speak what he's been commanded. And then WHEN he speaks, he's "self-aggrandizing"and "referring" to himself. Holy cow. He's truly in a no-win situation.

I have gobs of Denver quotes to back up my testimony that he's humble and meek and even self deprecating. On the few occasions I've seen him in person, as soon as he's done delivering his message, he splits. He doesn't like to be the center of attention and avoids the attention almost to the point of being a hermit with no apparent comfort in social settings. Maybe he is a hermit? Idk. Or maybe he's just trying to steer clear of the spotlight.

The man must be a crazy and a foolish businessman because a few days ago he paid around $25,000 (estimated) for a full-page ad in the LA Times, advertising his speech TOMORROW (Thurs at 7 pm Pacific Time). Livestreaming available from his his website

On this same website, his "self aggrandizing" side of him is in full display at this "About the Speaker" webpage.

Mr. Snuffer has authored 16 volumes on Mormonism that cover both Mormon history and doctrine (one of which is now translated into Spanish). Mr. Snuffer maintains a website where he publishes short essays and posts links to his books, talks, and longer essays. He taught for three years at Brigham Young University's Summertime "Education Week" on the BYU campus in Provo, Utah. He has presented papers at the annual Sunstone Symposium in Salt Lake City, Utah for several years. (read the rest of the bland intro at the link.)

For a man who touts himself as having a message from God (and is very similar to Jonah preaching to Nineveh down to the same eerie celestial detail of the solar eclipse occurring just before Jonah's ministry begins), that description above is woefully pathetic as far as generating any excitement for his upcoming talk. For the casual Christian, who the hell cares if some exed Mormon author and practicing attorney is coming to town! Yawn! From a marketing or "get people's attention" standpoint, one would think he could have spiced up the ad he took out by declaring that he is sent from God to the people of LA like Noah was sent. That may have persuaded a reporter to write an article. That could have ended up a city-wide or nationwide story. But all he did was quote mostly scripture, and then he actually threw Christian ministers and their churches under the bus, basically guaranteeing a cold welcome by the local clergy! Perhaps based on what he says tomorrow night, a Dallas reporter may have some material for the Dallas newspaper. Perhaps Denver may even get some national exposure. I'm guessing this will in fact occur, since we're in the digital, Information Age and since Denver does purport to be a prophet in the same vein of any OT prophet. I don't see how greater exposure is unavoidable. I ask Jesef, IF national or even worldwide exposure came via the media, would this be by the "power of the Holy Ghost?" It's a good question. Lehi's words could have only been heard by those in earshot. Imagine if every inhabitant of Jerusalem back in 600 BC was informed of what he was saying by news articles on their iPhone or through social media. Contrast the "reach" of Denver compared to ANY prophet in the past.

It was miraculously prophesied that Joseph's name would be had for good and evil among all men. What an astounding prophesy. Denver may very well help fulfill that prophesy this year with his 3 talks and get to "self aggrandize" along the way.

As to your last concern, Denver was clear that the priesthood of the LEADERS was forfeited when they kicked against the pricks, persecuted him, and fought against God (DC 121).

Denver said in Talk #10:

Section 121 is a warning to church leaders. It is addressing the powerful, not the powerless. It is addressing those who occupy the seats of authority over others. Only those who claim the right to control, compel, and exercise dominion, are warned against persecuting the saints, who believe the religion and practice it as I did from the time of my conversion. My excommunication was an abuse of authority. Therefore, as soon as the decision was made, the Lord terminated the priesthood authority of the stake presidency and every member of the High Council who sustained this decision, which was unanimous. Thereafter, I appealed to the First Presidency, outlining the involvement of the 12 and the 70. The appeal gave notice to them all.20 The appeal was summarily denied.

Read the before and after comments. They are very enlightening and instructive.

Denver specified it was the LEADERS' priesthood and authority which was lost. The ties to the Lord were severed. Matt 10:40: He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in casting me out of the church. At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.21 They have not practiced what He requires. The Lord has brought about His purposes. This has been in His heart all along. He has chosen to use small means to accomplish it, but He always uses the smallest of means to fulfill His purposes.

None of this was my doing. The Lord's strange act, was not, could not, be planned by me. Was not, could not, have been controlled by me. It was not anticipated by me, or even understood by me, until after the Lord had accomplished His will, and made it apparent to me on the evening of May 1, 2014. He alone has done this. He is the author of all of this.

*21 Meaning the leaders who exercised control, compulsion and dominion, and not the powerless who had no part in the affair.

He wasn't talking about the rank and file's priesthood, unless you are FOR using unrighteous dominion to cast him out. Most Mormons (esp outside the west) don't even know about Denver Snuffer. And many who DO know about him have been so badly propagandized that they think he's evil and wrong without knowing the facts. If the masses did know, I believe there'd be a revolt overnight, or at least a true schism...IF the truth was known.

If there was a serious debate (with proper facts given) in Sunday Schools throughout the world, I believe a major schism would happen overnight in the Church.

That day WILL come. There will be a "great division."

The Church is engaged in a massive cover-up of not just Denver's excommunication, but of things I've mentioned like the 3 WW excerpts added in 1981 to OD1, like the LoF being removed in 1921, like Church history, like ANYTHING which puts the institution in an unfavorable light, like the precipitous decline of tithing "revenues", like the reasons for stagnate/ declining growth among the gentiles, like the reasons for 80+% of high school grads in the Church going less active, like the number of convert baptisms, like an accounting of how sacred tithing monies are being spent (malls, apartment complexes, farms, etc.) , like how much money and compensation are GA's, mission presidents receiving, like Joseph's Last Vision, etc., etc. The list goes on. MASSIVE cover-ups have been going on for years, but the Lord prophecies that all hidden things will be brought to light.

That's why it's not just sad, but astonishingly stupid, for the Church to think they could stem the truth from getting out. No UNHALLOWED HAND can stop the truth from filling the whole earth!!!! The Church is unhallowed, as evidenced by all the corruption hidden in plain view. And yet, there still is good in the Church. Thank goodness there is still good. It's not a zero sum apostasy. To what degree it's corrupt is the question.

I wish you could step back and unattach emotionally for just a minute and really take in what you are saying. Look at your last few paragraphs of your post. You preach a divide and conquer mentality war cry. It is filled with one accusation after another accusation. Joseph would have no part of your divisive battle cry. He said "The eagerness to accuse is from the devil." No meekness and gentleness and long suffering and charity is to be found. No unity in thought and action. Only division and accusations against the restored church and its leadership. Can't you see what spirit you now possess?

[Arenera]

Poor little Denver is in a no-win situation. "Don't curse me, don't curse me.."

Denver is a deceived and continued to be deceived false prophet, bordering on false Christ. "But he spends his own money."

Denver and those who follow him, can't win. You are fighting against Christ's Church, Prophets, apostles and members. Yes you can hide like a tare in the Church, but that will end too.

[underdog]

Remnant Friends,

Well, I've noticed a lot of red-flags and contradictions in Denver's teachings. He makes a lot of self-aggrandizing comments and references to himself. These are quite similar of people with grandiose delusions of self-importance.

Btw, several of my nephews just returned from missions and apparently the Holy Ghost is still drawing people into the Church in this same manner - doesn't that contradict what Snuffer is saying? That even the Aaronic Priesthood authority is invalid in the Church? Also, several of these recent baptized converts reported experiences upon being confirmed that I could only account as being the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost - this definitely contradicts Snuffer's story (no Melchizedek Priesthood) - or are all things functioning in the LDS Church, still, according to people's faith? Wouldn't that mean the Church really is not defunct/rejected - but rather the same as it ever has been?

I've read and heard Denver more than the average bear by now. Mt testimony is that he does everything humanly possible to minimize himself and to deflect attention from himself and to the Lord or to his message, and that he even ridicules and condemns those who fawn over him or appear to follow him. Honestly, what more could he do? If I were in his shoes, I don't know what I'd do differently. It seems like he's being very deliberate about avoiding priestcraft to the point of being a recluse and appearing disagreeable and aloof. He tries to take a back seat in every meeting, activity or venture. And yet, he's commanded to say certain things, so he HAS TO speak what he's been commanded. And then WHEN he speaks, he's "self-aggrandizing"and "referring" to himself. Holy cow. He's truly in a no-win situation.

I have gobs of Denver quotes to back up my testimony that he's humble and meek and even self deprecating. On the few occasions I've seen him in person, as soon as he's done delivering his message, he splits. He doesn't like to be the center of attention and avoids the attention almost to the point of being a hermit with no apparent comfort in social settings. Maybe he is a hermit? Idk. Or maybe he's just trying to steer clear of the spotlight.

The man must be a crazy and a foolish businessman because a few days ago he paid around $25,000 (estimated) for a full-page ad in the LA Times, advertising his speech TOMORROW (Thurs at 7 pm Pacific Time). Livestreaming available from his his website

On this same website, his "self aggrandizing" side of him is in full display at this "About the Speaker" webpage.

Mr. Snuffer has authored 16 volumes on Mormonism that cover both Mormon history and doctrine (one of which is now translated into Spanish). Mr. Snuffer maintains a website where he publishes short essays and posts links to his books, talks, and longer essays. He taught for three years at Brigham Young University's Summertime "Education Week" on the BYU campus in Provo, Utah. He has presented papers at the annual Sunstone Symposium in Salt Lake City, Utah for several years. (read the rest of the bland intro at the link.)

For a man who touts himself as having a message from God (and is very similar to Jonah preaching to Nineveh down to the same eerie celestial detail of the solar eclipse occurring just before Jonah's ministry begins), that description above is woefully pathetic as far as generating any excitement for his upcoming talk. For the casual Christian, who the hell cares if some exed Mormon author and practicing attorney is coming to town! Yawn! From a marketing or "get people's attention" standpoint, one would think he could have spiced up the ad he took out by declaring that he is sent from God to the people of LA like Noah was sent. That may have persuaded a reporter to write an article. That could have ended up a city-wide or nationwide story. But all he did was quote mostly scripture, and then he actually threw Christian ministers and their churches under the bus, basically guaranteeing a cold welcome by the local clergy! Perhaps based on what he says tomorrow night, a Dallas reporter may have some material for the Dallas newspaper. Perhaps Denver may even get some national exposure. I'm guessing this will in fact occur, since we're in the digital, Information Age and since Denver does purport to be a prophet in the same vein of any OT prophet. I don't see how greater exposure is unavoidable. I ask Jesef, IF national or even worldwide exposure came via the media, would this be by the "power of the Holy Ghost?" It's a good question. Lehi's words could have only been heard by those in earshot. Imagine if every inhabitant of Jerusalem back in 600 BC was informed of what he was saying by news articles on their iPhone or through social media. Contrast the "reach" of Denver compared to ANY prophet in the past.

It was miraculously prophesied that Joseph's name would be had for good and evil among all men. What an astounding prophesy. Denver may very well help fulfill that prophesy this year with his 3 talks and get to "self aggrandize" along the way.

As to your last concern, Denver was clear that the priesthood of the LEADERS was forfeited when they kicked against the pricks, persecuted him, and fought against God (DC 121).

Denver said in Talk #10:

Section 121 is a warning to church leaders. It is addressing the powerful, not the powerless. It is addressing those who occupy the seats of authority over others. Only those who claim the right to control, compel, and exercise dominion, are warned against persecuting the saints, who believe the religion and practice it as I did from the time of my conversion. My excommunication was an abuse of authority. Therefore, as soon as the decision was made, the Lord terminated the priesthood authority of the stake presidency and every member of the High Council who sustained this decision, which was unanimous. Thereafter, I appealed to the First Presidency, outlining the involvement of the 12 and the 70. The appeal gave notice to them all.20 The appeal was summarily denied.

Read the before and after comments. They are very enlightening and instructive.

Denver specified it was the LEADERS' priesthood and authority which was lost. The ties to the Lord were severed. Matt 10:40: He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in casting me out of the church. At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.21 They have not practiced what He requires. The Lord has brought about His purposes. This has been in His heart all along. He has chosen to use small means to accomplish it, but He always uses the smallest of means to fulfill His purposes.

None of this was my doing. The Lord's strange act, was not, could not, be planned by me. Was not, could not, have been controlled by me. It was not anticipated by me, or even understood by me, until after the Lord had accomplished His will, and made it apparent to me on the evening of May 1, 2014. He alone has done this. He is the author of all of this.

*21 Meaning the leaders who exercised control, compulsion and dominion, and not the powerless who had no part in the affair.

He wasn't talking about the rank and file's priesthood, unless you are FOR using unrighteous dominion to cast him out. Most Mormons (esp outside the west) don't even know about Denver Snuffer. And many who DO know about him have been so badly propagandized that they think he's evil and wrong without knowing the facts. If the masses did know, I believe there'd be a revolt overnight, or at least a true schism...IF the truth was known.

If there was a serious debate (with proper facts given) in Sunday Schools throughout the world, I believe a major schism would happen overnight in the Church.

That day WILL come. There will be a "great division."

The Church is engaged in a massive cover-up of not just Denver's excommunication, but of things I've mentioned like the 3 WW excerpts added in 1981 to OD1, like the LoF being removed in 1921, like Church history, like ANYTHING which puts the institution in an unfavorable light, like the precipitous decline of tithing "revenues", like the reasons for stagnate/ declining growth among the gentiles, like the reasons for 80+% of high school grads in the Church going less active, like the number of convert baptisms, like an accounting of how sacred tithing monies are being spent (malls, apartment complexes, farms, etc.) , like how much money and compensation are GA's, mission presidents receiving, like Joseph's Last Vision, etc., etc. The list goes on. MASSIVE cover-ups have been going on for years, but the Lord prophecies that all hidden things will be brought to light.

That's why it's not just sad, but astonishingly stupid, for the Church to think they could stem the truth from getting out. No UNHALLOWED HAND can stop the truth from filling the whole earth!!!! The Church is unhallowed, as evidenced by all the corruption hidden in plain view. And yet, there still is good in the Church. Thank goodness there is still good. It's not a zero sum apostasy. To what degree it's corrupt is the question.

I wish you could step back and unattach emotionally for just a minute and really take in what you are saying. Look at your last few paragraphs of your post. You preach a divide and conquer mentality war cry. It is filled with one accusation after another accusation. Joseph would have no part of your divisive battle cry. He said "The eagerness to accuse is from the devil." No meekness and gentleness and long suffering and charity is to be found. No unity in thought and action. Only division and accusations against the restored church and its leadership. Can't you see what spirit you now possess?

I see your perspective, yes. There ARE absolutely times where blending in and being a peacemaker and turning the other cheek is appropriate. And yet, do we ignore the MASSIVE number of times where the Lord talks about division? It's not that he WANTS division per se. He wants unity. He wants us all to follow Him and be happy. But that's not reality.

I'm referring to reality when I speak of division. Not as a goal, but as a reality.

• The Lord's gathering is division.

• The parable of the Ten Virgins is about division.

• Bundling the wheat from the tares is division.

• "Come ye out from the wicked" is division.

• Lehi leaving Jerusalem is division.

• Mosiah leaving is about division.

• I come not to send peace, but a sword is about division.

• Not casting pearls before swine is about division.

• Not allowing everybody into LDS temples is about division.

• The very ordinance of baptism divides.

• The very act of choosing Christ divides.

• The Scriptures divide (two edged sword).

• Many more scriptures come to mind, as I'm sure they do to you as well.

• Casting out prophets in the OT, NT, and BoM is about division. It's just a reality.

• The Lost Sheep (the 99) is a parable about division.

• The Lost Coin is about division.

• Judgment Day is about division.

• Goats being divided from the sheep is about division.

• Hearing or not hearing His voice is about division.

• The Kingdom of heaven compared to a net catching all manner of fish is about division.

• The angels gathering is about division.

• There are dozens of more examples.

It's no exaggeration to say that the Gospel has divisive effects on people. It's not because of the nature of the Gospel, it's because of the nature of men to be sensual, carnal, and devilish. The natural man is an enemy to God and has been, and will be UNLESS people start yielding to the enticings of the Holy Spirit.

So I understand your viewpoint. I agree. And if everybody was on the same page and believing in Christ and in His Truths then there would be no division. The problem is us, and not the Gospel of Peace.

Through the years I've heard countless times, "Christ is a God of love, and 'your' God, the 'Mormon God' is too judgmental. He loves everybody. I don't believe He will hold me accountable if I don't do what you say He requires." You've heard this too?

I understand what you're saying. It would be nice if it was kumbaya.

[Arenera]

Poor little Denver is in a no-win situation. "Don't curse me, don't curse me.."

Denver is a deceived and continued to be deceived false prophet, bordering on false Christ. "But he spends his own money."

Denver and those who follow him, can't win. You are fighting against Christ's Church, Prophets, apostles and members. Yes you can hide like a tare in the Church, but that will end too.

[underdog]

Poor little Denver is in a no-win situation. "Don't curse me, don't curse me.."

Denver is a deceived and continued to be deceived false prophet, bordering on false Christ. "But he spends his own money."

Denver and those who follow him, can't win. You are fighting against Christ's Church, Prophets, apostles and members. Yes you can hide like a tare in the Church, but that will end too.

Your sarcasm is starting to grow on me! Seriously, it makes me smile now.

[Arenera]

Poor little Denver is in a no-win situation. "Don't curse me, don't curse me.."

Denver is a deceived and continued to be deceived false prophet, bordering on false Christ. "But he spends his own money."

Denver and those who follow him, can't win. You are fighting against Christ's Church, Prophets, apostles and members. Yes you can hide like a tare in the Church, but that will end too.

Your sarcasm is starting to grow on me! Seriously, it makes me smile now.

It isn't faith to hide with Mormons but preach anti-Mormonism. What is your bishops email address?

[underdog]

Poor little Denver is in a no-win situation. "Don't curse me, don't curse me.."

Denver is a deceived and continued to be deceived false prophet, bordering on false Christ. "But he spends his own money."

Denver and those who follow him, can't win. You are fighting against Christ's Church, Prophets, apostles and members. Yes you can hide like a tare in the Church, but that will end too.

Your sarcasm is starting to grow on me! Seriously, it makes me smile now.

It isn't faith to hide with Mormons but preach anti-Mormonism. What is your bishops email address?

Seriously? I'm preaching Pure Mormonism, from the Scriptures. We should really rejoice in our common beliefs! 99% agreed I'd say. I think of you as a fellow, cherished member of the Church. I respect the path you're on. I don't want to persecute you or turn you in to be disciplined for your beliefs that oppose Christ and the Scriptures. Surely, you don't really want to do that to me?

[EmmaLee]

I like this quote from Terrill Givens.

"The church is a place to worship, to serve others, to learn to get along with people we might not choose as neighbors or family, and to find kinship with a large and timeless community of disciples. It is a workshop for the soul. But ultimately, we are responsible for our own life of discipleship, for finding spiritual nourishment in our own sacred spaces. At the same time, we are part of the body of Christ- and we can influence the collective only if we are part of it. As an outspoken President once noted, " It Is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena."

I really like that. Can you tell me which of his books/talks that's from? I'd like to read the whole thing. Thanks.

[underdog]

I like this quote from Terrill Givens.

"The church is a place to worship, to serve others, to learn to get along with people we might not choose as neighbors or family, and to find kinship with a large and timeless community of disciples. It is a workshop for the soul. But ultimately, we are responsible for our own life of discipleship, for finding spiritual nourishment in our own sacred spaces. At the same time, we are part of the body of Christ- and we can influence the collective only if we are part of it. As an outspoken President once noted, " It Is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena."

I really like that. Can you tell me which of his books/talks that's from? I'd like to read the whole thing. Thanks.

This is also a good talk on that topic: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... h?lang=eng by By Elder D. Todd Christofferson.

An excerpt:

In the Church we not only learn divine doctrine; we also experience its application. As the body of Christ, the members of the Church minister to one another in the reality of day-to-day life. All of us are imperfect; we may offend and be offended. We often test one another with our personal idiosyncrasies. In the body of Christ, we have to go beyond concepts and exalted words and have a real “hands-on” experience as we learn to “live together in love.”

[Arenera]

Poor little Denver is in a no-win situation. "Don't curse me, don't curse me.."

Denver is a deceived and continued to be deceived false prophet, bordering on false Christ. "But he spends his own money."

Denver and those who follow him, can't win. You are fighting against Christ's Church, Prophets, apostles and members. Yes you can hide like a tare in the Church, but that will end too.

Your sarcasm is starting to grow on me! Seriously, it makes me smile now.

It isn't faith to hide with Mormons but preach anti-Mormonism. What is your bishops email address?

Seriously? I'm preaching Pure Mormonism, from the Scriptures. We should really rejoice in our common beliefs! 99% agreed I'd say. I think of you as a fellow, cherished member of the Church. I respect the path you're on. I don't want to persecute you or turn you in to be disciplined for your beliefs that oppose Christ and the Scriptures. Surely, you don't really want to do that to me?

Sorry, you are preaching underdogism. As a wolf in sheep's clothing, you should be disciplined. You have crossed the line.

[Thomas]

Givens has some good things to say but what is required is more than just bringing cookies to your neighbor. We are to live as one. To be an actual Zion. To live like the Nephites did for the 200 years after Christ came to them. Those who believe Snuffer has an authentic message try to live by the higher principle. I have seen it. I have witnessed it for last three years. It is not about criticizing the church. It is about living as Christ commands. It is about sacrificing for you neighbor and valuing them as your own family.

You cannot repent unless you will first acknowledge that what you are doing falls short. More than this false Zion is required with its winners and losers. Some clothed in glory and fabulous wealth, while others are beggars in the street.

[ajax]

This is good as well:

"Why the Church is as True as the Gospel" by Eugene England
http://www.eugeneengland.org/why-the-ch ... the-gospel

[underdog]

Jesef,

DS said:

“Either I am a liar and you ought to forget everything I've said, or I have been sent by someone greater than I am. If I have been sent and you reject and quibble over the things I declare to you, it is at your peril! It ought to be that way. I ought to be damned if I'm a pretender, and I ought to be damned and rejected by God if I'm saying things about which I know nothing! But I bear witness to you I know what I'm talking about. I have no reason to lie to you. I have no reason to pay to reserve a place to speak to you, and ask nothing of you but to listen. It requires a sacrifice to do what I am doing. I have no other reason to do this than to tell you the truth. Joseph Smith testified to these things and I am come as a second witness. Therefore you now have two proclaiming the same doctrine.…

“I recognize that I am not the best messenger. I wish I had the voice of an archangel. I wish I could do something to soften the hearts of you all. Some of you will never respond to the Lord because you cannot overcome your preoccupation with me. That saddens me and I regret that deeply. But that is your choice, and you can choose differently . Christ is in fact holy, and I am deeply aware of the fact that I am not. I can't redeem any of you, but He can. I can testify of Him, but when it comes down to it, you should be able to feel faith. You should be able to feel something important was communicated by God today....

When it comes down to it, I don't see how Denver is a true liar. It doesn't add up. Is he a devilish deceiver, fully intent and collaborating with Satan?

If he meant well, and WITH HIS KNOWLEDGE, he could never utter these words, "If I have been sent and you reject and quibble over the things I declare to you, it is at your peril! It ought to be that way. I ought to be damned if I'm a pretender, and I ought to be damned and rejected by God if I'm saying things about which I know nothing!"

He's claiming to be "sent", and to be another true prophet like Joseph. He said, "Joseph Smith testified to these things and I am come as a second witness. Therefore you now have two proclaiming the same doctrine.…"

What I am saying is that if Denver is trying to deceive he is one of the most devilish, evil, conspiratorial tools of Satan of all time. He would be akin to an anti Christ.

And so the evidence against him as being one of the all-time great counterfeits and all-time greatest wolves in sheep's clothing is.....drum roll...(from AI2 at this link):

• 1) He indicates that it's at least a good idea to have God tell you that you're calling and election is made sure before you die.

• 2) He teaches that not everyone on earth is being tested, some are already Gods.

• 3) He now claims to have wrested the keys from Pres. Monson and is telling others that he now has the saving ordinances.

• 4) He's written his own scriptures, he's added to them and taken away from them.

This is the condemning list that you all have come up with that exposes him as an evil tool of Satan?

My response to the above:
1) Seems like a good idea. Certainly isn't it safer to know in advance (even in the final moments of one's mortal life) than going into the next world not knowing for "sure", as in "sure" word of prophecy?
2) I don't even know if this is true or not. It's deep. Michael (Adam) was a god, correct? Adam was on earth for over 900 years trying to save man.
3) If true, then it's true. If false, then it's false. God does command prophets to testify truth to power. That's the norm.
4) Even AI2 says, "And, to be honest, maybe that's not Denver's fault, since it's being done by the committee..."

[Arenera]

Denver is a liar, he is deceiving some to follow him and take them away from the correct and proper place of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

[drtanner]

DS said:

“Either I am a liar and you ought to forget everything I've said, or I have been sent by someone greater than I am. If I have been sent and you reject and quibble over the things I declare to you, it is at your peril! It ought to be that way. I ought to be damned if I'm a pretender, and I ought to be damned and rejected by God if I'm saying things about which I know nothing! But I bear witness to you I know what I'm talking about. I have no reason to lie to you. I have no reason to pay to reserve a place to speak to you, and ask nothing of you but to listen. It requires a sacrifice to do what I am doing. I have no other reason to do this than to tell you the truth. Joseph Smith testified to these things and I am come as a second witness. Therefore you now have two proclaiming the same doctrine.…

“I recognize that I am not the best messenger. I wish I had the voice of an archangel. I wish I could do something to soften the hearts of you all. Some of you will never respond to the Lord because you cannot overcome your preoccupation with me. That saddens me and I regret that deeply. But that is your choice, and you can choose differently . Christ is in fact holy, and I am deeply aware of the fact that I am not. I can't redeem any of you, but He can. I can testify of Him, but when it comes down to it, you should be able to feel faith. You should be able to feel something important was communicated by God today....

When it comes down to it, I don't see how Denver looks like a liar. Makes no sense. He is a devilish deceiver, fully intent and collaborating with Satan.

If he meant well, and WITH HIS KNOWLEDGE, he could never utter these words, "If I have been sent and you reject and quibble over the things I declare to you, it is at your peril! It ought to be that way. I ought to be damned if I'm a pretender, and I ought to be damned and rejected by God if I'm saying things about which I know nothing!"

He's claiming to be "sent", and to be another true prophet like Joseph. He said, "Joseph Smith testified to these things and I am come as a second witness. Therefore you now have two proclaiming the same doctrine.…"

What I am saying is that if Denver is trying to deceive he is one of the most devilish, evil, conspiratorial tools of Satan of all time. He would be akin to an anti Christ.

And so the evidence against him as being one of the all-time great counterfeits and all-time greatest wolves in sheep's clothing is.....drum roll...(from AI2 at this link):

This is exactly what I would say to a group of predominately LDS members to try and get them to believe me and my message. It is the pattern of his sentiments that have changed over time that are the hard evidence of his true intentions all of which have been outlined crystal clear in this thread. If you read between the lines and watch his actions you will see clearly the root of angst he has against the church and its leaders for his excommunication all masked by his spurious humility and feigned good intentions.

[Arenera]

Some (many) of those who have gone remnant enjoyed the "higher spiritual" components found in the Book of Mormon and D&C.

Unfortunately, the adversary used Denver as an instrument to distract these people and pull them away from their potential spiritual strengths.

Now they are wasting their time on covenants to be good and to write some principles. Such a terrible distraction and cost.