Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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e-eye2.0
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by e-eye2.0 »

Thomas wrote: September 29th, 2017, 10:30 am The leaders could put a stop to this idol worship, if they wanted to. But they do not.
Interesting. When my Nephew married his wife (both families in the remnant and I guess fairly popular as well) Denver Snuffer didn't go to it because it would have drawn such a large crowd. But hey, Denver deflects his attention from his members so I guess it's okay for the remnant group?

I will agree that sometimes testimony meetings get a little crazy. When I was on my mission a member spoke about their alien encounter - crazy.

I think if you are going to weigh the truthfulness of a church based on the members you will never find what you are looking for or maybe that is why the remnant started. Too many sinners in the LDS church for their liking? It is true that members of Christ's church should be a light to others " and they are " but keep in mind Christ came to heal the sinner not those who were perfect. Church is a hospital not a place for perfect people. I find it interesting that these break-off groups from the church typically accuse the members for being imperfect (including leaders). I don't know if I can pretend to understand why they leave, (I have many family members who have left) but I do find it sad that they have left.

It seems that the accusations the remnant group threw out against the LDS church are coming around full circle as Denver's church becomes more established.

I do have a question though for Thomas - Was there more hero worship with Joseph Smith and those leaders in the church or is there more now? Just wondering if that would have been a good reason to leave the church then as well?

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Arenera
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

Shadow is correct.

On the positive side, after hearing the negative arguments of Thomas and underdog, most people will be turned off and stay away from their messed up doctrine.

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Mark
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Mark »

shadow wrote: September 29th, 2017, 11:09 am The fact is that snufferites have an obsession with the brethren. Ironically they idolize and obsess over Snuffer. That's the hypocrisy of snufferism. They have nothing different than what they accuse LDS of. Their main focus is on Denver Snuffer and criticizing the church they once were a part of but it's certainly not Christ. They're so busy kicking with their might against the pricks that they can't see straight. Snufferism has nothing to offer, absolutely nothing.

The bitter will always focus on the negative. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Priesthood and RS lessons on the prophets are about their teachings and examples of how to be like Christ and partake of the blessings of the restored gospel. It's been shown without any doubt that many of the outspoken Snufferites on this forum can't contextually understand anything. Whether it's their infatuation with Snuffer, their hatred of the LDS church or if they're simply not capable of understanding, it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation with them.

What's even more comical is that they advocate a return to Joseph's teachings and proclamations yet don't have a clue about what he was teaching and testifying of. They would have rejected Joseph outright had they lived in that period and labeled any of the early Saints who testified of Josephs Prophetic mission as just a bunch of arm of flesh following Brethrenites. It's pathetic. :cry:

Thomas
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Thomas »

There may be a little idol worshipping of Denver but he hasn't been encouraging it like the brethren do. I mean, I haven't seen him collecting money to buy pictures of himself so he can pass them out to everyone. He very much discourages idol worship of him.

Let's get real here. It is not just members. The 15 idolize each other at least in an upward ranking so let's stop trying to say it isn't coming from the top.

Thomas
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Thomas »

E-eye2.0. There is an extremely solid case for not
Believing the church is what it claims to be. It does not rest on one issue, but on many. The evidence has been laid out. It complies with scriptures.

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Arenera
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

Thomas wrote: September 29th, 2017, 12:45 pm E-eye2.0. There is an extremely solid case for not
Believing the church is what it claims to be. It does not rest on one issue, but on many. The evidence has been laid out. It complies with scriptures.
So go find yourself a community and go on with life.

underdog
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

Mark wrote: September 29th, 2017, 12:36 pm
shadow wrote: September 29th, 2017, 11:09 am The fact is that snufferites have an obsession with the brethren. Ironically they idolize and obsess over Snuffer. That's the hypocrisy of snufferism. They have nothing different than what they accuse LDS of. Their main focus is on Denver Snuffer and criticizing the church they once were a part of but it's certainly not Christ. They're so busy kicking with their might against the pricks that they can't see straight. Snufferism has nothing to offer, absolutely nothing.

The bitter will always focus on the negative. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Priesthood and RS lessons on the prophets are about their teachings and examples of how to be like Christ and partake of the blessings of the restored gospel. It's been shown without any doubt that many of the outspoken Snufferites on this forum can't contextually understand anything. Whether it's their infatuation with Snuffer, their hatred of the LDS church or if they're simply not capable of understanding, it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation with them.

What's even more comical is that they advocate a return to Joseph's teachings and proclamations yet don't have a clue about what he was teaching and testifying of. They would have rejected Joseph outright had they lived in that period and labeled any of the early Saints who testified of Josephs Prophetic mission as just a bunch of arm of flesh following Brethrenites. It's pathetic. :cry:
Mark,

On what basis do you say we would reject Joseph? What teaching of his do we reject?

On the other hand, it seems plainly evident that if you will categorically reject a prophet 'sent' from God from outside your accepted religious orthodoxy/hierarchy, then you most certainly would have rejected Joseph or Jesus, as both were clearly outside the ranks of their religious hierarchy.

Only a couple of you here on this forum, like Jesef, for example, have acknowledged that you would possibly accept a prophet sent from outside the ranks of "the Brethren." Only Jesef therefore would have a chance at accepting Jesus and Joseph in their days.

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Arenera
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

underdog wrote: September 29th, 2017, 12:50 pm
Mark wrote: September 29th, 2017, 12:36 pm
shadow wrote: September 29th, 2017, 11:09 am The fact is that snufferites have an obsession with the brethren. Ironically they idolize and obsess over Snuffer. That's the hypocrisy of snufferism. They have nothing different than what they accuse LDS of. Their main focus is on Denver Snuffer and criticizing the church they once were a part of but it's certainly not Christ. They're so busy kicking with their might against the pricks that they can't see straight. Snufferism has nothing to offer, absolutely nothing.

The bitter will always focus on the negative. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Priesthood and RS lessons on the prophets are about their teachings and examples of how to be like Christ and partake of the blessings of the restored gospel. It's been shown without any doubt that many of the outspoken Snufferites on this forum can't contextually understand anything. Whether it's their infatuation with Snuffer, their hatred of the LDS church or if they're simply not capable of understanding, it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation with them.

What's even more comical is that they advocate a return to Joseph's teachings and proclamations yet don't have a clue about what he was teaching and testifying of. They would have rejected Joseph outright had they lived in that period and labeled any of the early Saints who testified of Josephs Prophetic mission as just a bunch of arm of flesh following Brethrenites. It's pathetic. :cry:
Mark,

On what basis do you say we would reject Joseph? What teaching of his do we reject?

On the other hand, it seems plainly evident that if you will categorically reject a prophet 'sent' from God from outside your accepted religious orthodoxy/hierarchy, then you most certainly would have rejected Joseph or Jesus, as both were clearly outside the ranks of their religious hierarchy.

Only a couple of you here on this forum, like Jesef, for example, have acknowledged that you would possibly accept a prophet sent from outside the ranks of "the Brethren." Only Jesef therefore would have a chance at accepting Jesus and Joseph in their days.
Snuffer is a false prophet, so we don't accept him. You do. But then look at the fruit that comes from Snuffer, enmity.

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shadow
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by shadow »

underdog wrote: September 29th, 2017, 12:50 pm
On what basis do you say we would reject Joseph? What teaching of his do we reject?

I've already mentioned that from a Snuffer foundation of wresting the keys that Joseph Smith said those who don't attend their excommunication courts automatically validate their excommunication if that's what the council decides. Snuffer refused to attend HIS court and was excommed. Joseph would sustain such an excomm based on the absence alone. Snuffer claims that because the brethren didn't honor his appeal, the the Lord rejected the church. That's contrary to what Joseph taught.

Thomas
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Thomas »

Arenera wrote: September 29th, 2017, 12:50 pm
Thomas wrote: September 29th, 2017, 12:45 pm E-eye2.0. There is an extremely solid case for not
Believing the church is what it claims to be. It does not rest on one issue, but on many. The evidence has been laid out. It complies with scriptures.
So go find yourself a community and go on with life.
You don't have to listen to me and if my words are not truth, they cannot hurt you.

Thomas
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Posts: 4622

Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Thomas »

shadow wrote: September 29th, 2017, 1:13 pm
underdog wrote: September 29th, 2017, 12:50 pm
On what basis do you say we would reject Joseph? What teaching of his do we reject?

I've already mentioned that from a Snuffer foundation of wresting the keys that Joseph Smith said those who don't attend their excommunication courts automatically validate their excommunication if that's what the council decides. Snuffer refused to attend HIS court and was excommed. Joseph would sustain such an excomm based on the absence alone. Snuffer claims that because the brethren didn't honor his appeal, the the Lord rejected the church. That's contrary to what Joseph taught.
What matters is what the Lord says. If the Lord sends a messenger and that messenger is cast out, it is the Lord they reject.

The Lord can send anyone he chooses.

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Arenera
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

Thomas wrote: September 29th, 2017, 1:27 pm
shadow wrote: September 29th, 2017, 1:13 pm
underdog wrote: September 29th, 2017, 12:50 pm
On what basis do you say we would reject Joseph? What teaching of his do we reject?

I've already mentioned that from a Snuffer foundation of wresting the keys that Joseph Smith said those who don't attend their excommunication courts automatically validate their excommunication if that's what the council decides. Snuffer refused to attend HIS court and was excommed. Joseph would sustain such an excomm based on the absence alone. Snuffer claims that because the brethren didn't honor his appeal, the the Lord rejected the church. That's contrary to what Joseph taught.
What matters is what the Lord says. If the Lord sends a messenger and that messenger is cast out, it is the Lord they reject.

The Lord can send anyone he chooses.
Does Christ fight himself? Snuffer is not a messenger and the fruit is showing. It is sad that the remnants have been deceived and are distracted from the truth, from pursuing happiness. Instead they are bickering and contending amongst themselves. They learned it from Snuffer.

Laman and Lemuel did not seek the truth, which allowed them to seek that which does not bring happiness. Nephi on the other hand built a ship, wrote scriptures for us, and gave us direction for our day, 2,600 years later. That's impressive.

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shadow
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by shadow »

Thomas wrote: September 29th, 2017, 1:27 pm
shadow wrote: September 29th, 2017, 1:13 pm
underdog wrote: September 29th, 2017, 12:50 pm
On what basis do you say we would reject Joseph? What teaching of his do we reject?

I've already mentioned that from a Snuffer foundation of wresting the keys that Joseph Smith said those who don't attend their excommunication courts automatically validate their excommunication if that's what the council decides. Snuffer refused to attend HIS court and was excommed. Joseph would sustain such an excomm based on the absence alone. Snuffer claims that because the brethren didn't honor his appeal, the the Lord rejected the church. That's contrary to what Joseph taught.
What matters is what the Lord says. If the Lord sends a messenger and that messenger is cast out, it is the Lord they reject.

The Lord can send anyone he chooses.
Snuffer is NOT the Lord's servant nor is he on the Lord's errand. That's what the Lord taught me via revelation. Snuffer and his followers are the ones who've rejected the Lord.

I specifically responded to underdog's request regarding which teaching of Joseph's Snufferites reject. I gave one which blows the wresting keys scenario out of the water but there are many others as you're obviously aware otherwise you wouldn't have deflected. Other practices of his that give you subconscious nightmares is that he was paid by the church and he caused other church leaders from the first presidency down to Bishop to also get paid, including charging money to receive a patriarchal blessing. You have claimed the LDS church is apostate for receiving stipends. It's gotta be a mental circus being a follower of Snuffer and an LDS antagonist.

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Jesef
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Jesef »

I'll readily admit that we have some cultural issues in the Church (humans and drama go hand in hand), but I could not in good conscience lay all of these at the leaders' feet. I see them decrying much of it, slowly shifting and changing a lot of it.

Underdog, the "5 Pillars of Mormonism" (mimicking the 5 Pillars of Islam), or 5-points of a (totally rote) testimony, are: 1) God is Our Father in Heaven, 2) Jesus Christ is Our Savior & Redeemer, 3) Joseph Smith was a true prophet, 4) The Book of Mormon is true, 5) The Church is true.

I'm unimpressed by the Denver-Snuffer-Remnant at this point. As a whole (collectively, not individually) I see hypocrisy, disunity/disorganization, contention, family & marriage dissolution, contradictory teachings, idolatry of Denver and/or Joseph and "the scriptures" (dead prophets). I see many cult-like tactics and characteristics, including:
> elitism, appears exclusive and innovative (you're "the Special", chosen, remnant, covenant people now) - but also recruiting
> fanatical sacrifice mentality (give all to the cause, sacrifice everything, including spouses, children, family for the "movement" or covenant or ZION or whatever - what the hell is ZION without your family anyway? ZION should be families first, composed of strong marriages and families, not leaving them behind)
> all-or-nothing thinking ("throwing the baby out with the bath water", LDS Church/Leaders/most-members all rejected/corrupt, all fake, all invalid, sweeping collective judgments, holding current people and leaders accountable for all past generations' wrongs/errors - this is contradicted by your stated views on individual salvation/repentance/faith)
> group-thinking (you are creating a new theology with a lot of talking points, mostly criticisms against the LDS Church/Leaders where you try to draw contrasts to how you've "repented" and are suprerior)
> confirmation bias (you only seem to accept confirming evidence, you ignore/minimize disconfirming evidence)
> us-vs-them mentality (persecution complex), as well as conspiracy theories (against the Mother Church and Leaders, particularly)
> guilt/fear (you will be left behind for not believing Denver, being re-baptized, new covenant, etc.)
> double standards & contradictions - a form of hypocrisy - where you apply criticisms to others (LDS Church/Leaders) that you do not apply to Denver Snuffer, Joseph Smith, or your own movement
> Messianic leader (the "Davidic Servant" Denver Snuffer)
> Information flow control (scripture project plus all Denver's utterances treated like scripture)

The LDS Church, and many "high demand" religious groups, all have cult-like characteristics. Some of these things are very human organizational tendencies, cultural stuff. But I don't see a huge improvement in the way you guys are doing things - you're just rewinding to the pre-organized LDS Church (before all of JS's organization revelations, btw - which is another contradiction you guys chalk up to "the Campbellites wanting a New Testament Church" - which idea, of course, you've gotten from Denver - like the Israelites wanted a king - the Lord just always caves into whatever we want, to our condemnation, etc.). Well, now you've got a "Davidic Servant" (not in Israel, where this guy is supposed to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple - highly unlikely, but you're buying it), true messenger, a real prophet who is getting stuff done! All buildings and multiple temples are judged as robbing the poor. All true meetings should be held outside in the open air (I'm exaggerating here).

In essence, I see you trying to do some things culturally better than the LDS, but you are still a cult and more and more each passing month, Denver seems to be more central and indispensable to the progress of the movement. His talks are being laser etched onto stainless-steel plates for 1000+ year preservation - for crying out loud!

Biggest whammy is that you guys can't see how ridiculous and contradictory so much or your own stuff is - a huge red flag.

Next big move, btw - you can write this down as a prophecy - is there will be an exciting call to start gathering and building the log-cabin city somewhere in the mountains. Probably start as a tent city. Only the truly "chosen" will be willing to make this sacrifice and go start preparing the land and living an agrarian (think Amish) lifestyle, off the grid, in naked nature. Denver has to keep things moving, never stagnant, or people will lose interest/motivation. Always innovating. Temple fund is already in motion. You'll need a location for gathering and building and that will become the focus. After his talks in the 3 big U.S. cities don't have any real/tangible results or success. This will be interpreted to be the full rejection of the Gospel and true messenger by the rest of the Gentiles (the unbelieving Gentiles/Europeans or whatever).

This is just so ridiculous I have to take a break.

underdog
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

Arenera wrote: September 29th, 2017, 1:39 pm
Thomas wrote: September 29th, 2017, 1:27 pm
shadow wrote: September 29th, 2017, 1:13 pm
underdog wrote: September 29th, 2017, 12:50 pm
On what basis do you say we would reject Joseph? What teaching of his do we reject?

I've already mentioned that from a Snuffer foundation of wresting the keys that Joseph Smith said those who don't attend their excommunication courts automatically validate their excommunication if that's what the council decides. Snuffer refused to attend HIS court and was excommed. Joseph would sustain such an excomm based on the absence alone. Snuffer claims that because the brethren didn't honor his appeal, the the Lord rejected the church. That's contrary to what Joseph taught.
What matters is what the Lord says. If the Lord sends a messenger and that messenger is cast out, it is the Lord they reject.

The Lord can send anyone he chooses.
Does Christ fight himself? Snuffer is not a messenger and the fruit is showing. It is sad that the remnants have been deceived and are distracted from the truth, from pursuing happiness. Instead they are bickering and contending amongst themselves. They learned it from Snuffer.

Laman and Lemuel did not seek the truth, which allowed them to seek that which does not bring happiness. Nephi on the other hand built a ship, wrote scriptures for us, and gave us direction for our day, 2,600 years later. That's impressive.
That's the point. Christ isn't fighting Himself. Denver has done nothing that is contrary to Christ. Shadow's big "no no" of what Denver did is a lame technicality, if that's even true. I don't think bringing up some "supposed" technicality is a strong argument. Shadow should be bringing things (from Denver teaches) that at least he alleges encourage us to deny Christ. Presenting evidence that President Hunt and Denver disagreed on what was previously agreed regarding his family attending is hardly a bulletproof case against Denver.

Imagine bringing your strongest evidence against a man accused of murder. You (Shadow), the prosecution, says, "Your honor, I'd like to present my prima facie evidence to the court that proves he is a murderer." The judge says, "Show us what you got! We've been waiting for so long." Then there's the drum roll. And you say, "Since the defendant decided not to enter the court room today, we declare that this is evidence that he is guilty of murder!" Everyone in the court room looks at each other with bewilderment. Some burst out laughing.

The fair judge says, "Mr. Prosecutor, look. I don't like the fact that he didn't follow my instructions to enter, but in the name of Integrity, in the name of Justice, in the name of Fairness, in the name of all that is Right and Wrong in the Universe, your proposed evidence has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether he committed murder. Case dismissed! However, I'll fine the man $500 for contempt of court for not entering the court room with his family."

Give me a break.

King Noah demanded, "Recall all the words you spoke evil against me!" Abinadi declined. "Okay, throw him into the fire!"

This is more akin to what happened in reality. The Stake President demanded he recall his book and to call off his speaking tour. Denver declined and got the fire. Call a spade a spade.

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Arenera
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

underdog wrote: September 29th, 2017, 2:25 pm
Arenera wrote: September 29th, 2017, 1:39 pm
Thomas wrote: September 29th, 2017, 1:27 pm
shadow wrote: September 29th, 2017, 1:13 pm

I've already mentioned that from a Snuffer foundation of wresting the keys that Joseph Smith said those who don't attend their excommunication courts automatically validate their excommunication if that's what the council decides. Snuffer refused to attend HIS court and was excommed. Joseph would sustain such an excomm based on the absence alone. Snuffer claims that because the brethren didn't honor his appeal, the the Lord rejected the church. That's contrary to what Joseph taught.
What matters is what the Lord says. If the Lord sends a messenger and that messenger is cast out, it is the Lord they reject.

The Lord can send anyone he chooses.
Does Christ fight himself? Snuffer is not a messenger and the fruit is showing. It is sad that the remnants have been deceived and are distracted from the truth, from pursuing happiness. Instead they are bickering and contending amongst themselves. They learned it from Snuffer.

Laman and Lemuel did not seek the truth, which allowed them to seek that which does not bring happiness. Nephi on the other hand built a ship, wrote scriptures for us, and gave us direction for our day, 2,600 years later. That's impressive.
That's the point. Christ isn't fighting Himself. Denver has done nothing that is contrary to Christ. Shadow's big "no no" of what Denver did is a lame technicality. I don't think bringing up some "supposed" technicality is a strong argument. You should have things (from Denver teaches) that at least you allege encourage us to deny Christ. Presenting evidence that President Hunt and Denver disagreed on what was previously agreed regarding his family attending is hardly a bulletproof case against Denver.

Imagine bringing your strongest evidence against a man accused of murder. You, the prosecution, says, "Your honor, I'd like to present my prima facie evidence to the court that proves he is a murderer." The judge says, "Show us what you got! We've been waiting for so long." Then there's the drum roll. And you say, "Since the defendant decided not to enter the court room today, we declare that this is evidence that he is guilty of murder!"

The fair judge says, "Mr. Prosecutor, look. I don't like the fact that he didn't follow my instructions, but in the name of Integrity, in the name of Justice, in the name of Fairness, in the name of all that is Right and Wrong in the Universe, your proposed evidence has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether he committed murder. Case dismissed! However, I'll fine the man $500 for contempt of court for not entering the court room with his family."

Give me a break.

King Noah demanded, "Recall all the words you spoke evil against me!" Abinadi declined. "Okay, throw him into the fire!"

This is more akin to what happened in reality. The Stake President demanded he recall his book and to call off his speaking tour. Denver declined and got the fire. Call a spade a spade.
Did Christ send a prophet from the outside to call King Benjamin or King Mosiah to repentance? No, because they were righteous.

King Noah, son of Zeniff, was part of the group who zealously left the safety of King Benjamin and put themselves in a position to be put in bondage.

The Stake President is part of the righteous Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Snuffer is not Abinadi, underdog is not Abinadi, Thomas is not Abinadi. That is the Royal Flush dude.

How many times have I said, "You are not preaching Christ."? You have a negative message. That is another spade for you.

Most on this forum have rejected Snuffer. His fruit is false, it is enmity. Why do we reject underdog's and Thomas's message? You are preaching enmity. That is a "spade" indicator that your message comes from the wrong source.

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Jesef
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Jesef »

Denver, so far, has been just a bunch of words. If The Lord was going to condemn/damn the Brethren using a legitimate outsider-prophet (this assumes your discontinuity theory is true - which hangs A LOT on, well, the subjunctive mood) - I'm pretty sure he would have done it Jesus-style, with power. Miracles, real Enoch-Melchizedek-Jesus-style Priesthood power - in your face "false Brethren" - "you all be rejected!" No such thing, just lots of books and blogging and letters from Denver. Can't even get the Holy Ghost to manifest the truth of him in any discernible way. You guys had to redefine "the Power" in its weakest and most subtle form to even bring it into the discussion. Grandiose delusions is much, much, much more likely what is at play here.

Here's a disconfirming, but somewhat fringe, heterodox perspective from a spiritually gifted, and still LDS, guy, you might find interesting:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45814&p=811302&sid ... 48#p811297

Denver doesn't sound like this "Josephite" (one might and strong, I think), or the "Davidic Servant" who will rebuild the Jerusalem Temple.

In other words, "we ain't seen nothin' yet" (from Denver, for sure, or anyone else, for that matter).
Last edited by Jesef on September 29th, 2017, 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

e-eye2.0
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Posts: 454

Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by e-eye2.0 »

Thomas wrote: September 29th, 2017, 12:45 pm E-eye2.0. There is an extremely solid case for not
Believing the church is what it claims to be. It does not rest on one issue, but on many. The evidence has been laid out. It complies with scriptures.
Yeah - I have seen the arguments. It's amazing how easily one can pick out some scripture and build a church out of it. Sounds crazy but you would be surprised how easily it happens and members fall for it.

I really do feel sorry for families caught up in it. My sisters family has just been torn apart. Since they joined the remnant their kids have lost all moral guidance my sister is divorced and it has been a train wreck. I don't know how the other families are fairing but it's done a number on my sister and her now broken family.

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Arenera
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

Jesef wrote: September 29th, 2017, 2:14 pm I'll readily admit that we have some cultural issues in the Church (humans and drama go hand in hand), but I could not in good conscience lay all of these at the leaders' feet. I see them decrying much of it, slowly shifting and changing a lot of it.

Underdog, the "5 Pillars of Mormonism" (mimicking the 5 Pillars of Islam), or 5-points of a (totally rote) testimony, are: 1) God is Our Father in Heaven, 2) Jesus Christ is Our Savior & Redeemer, 3) Joseph Smith was a true prophet, 4) The Book of Mormon is true, 5) The Church is true.

I'm unimpressed by the Denver-Snuffer-Remnant at this point. As a whole (collectively, not individually) I see hypocrisy, disunity/disorganization, contention, family & marriage dissolution, contradictory teachings, idolatry of Denver and/or Joseph and "the scriptures" (dead prophets). I see many cult-like tactics and characteristics, including:
> elitism, appears exclusive and innovative (you're "the Special", chosen, remnant, covenant people now) - but also recruiting
> fanatical sacrifice mentality (give all to the cause, sacrifice everything, including spouses, children, family for the "movement" or covenant or ZION or whatever - what the hell is ZION without your family anyway? ZION should be families first, composed of strong marriages and families, not leaving them behind)
> all-or-nothing thinking ("throwing the baby out with the bath water", LDS Church/Leaders/most-members all rejected/corrupt, all fake, all invalid, sweeping collective judgments, holding current people and leaders accountable for all past generations' wrongs/errors - this is contradicted by your stated views on individual salvation/repentance/faith)
> group-thinking (you are creating a new theology with a lot of talking points, mostly criticisms against the LDS Church/Leaders where you try to draw contrasts to how you've "repented" and are suprerior)
> confirmation bias (you only seem to accept confirming evidence, you ignore/minimize disconfirming evidence)
> us-vs-them mentality (persecution complex), as well as conspiracy theories (against the Mother Church and Leaders, particularly)
> guilt/fear (you will be left behind for not believing Denver, being re-baptized, new covenant, etc.)
> double standards & contradictions - a form of hypocrisy - where you apply criticisms to others (LDS Church/Leaders) that you do not apply to Denver Snuffer, Joseph Smith, or your own movement
> Messianic leader (the "Davidic Servant" Denver Snuffer)
> Information flow control (scripture project plus all Denver's utterances treated like scripture)

The LDS Church, and many "high demand" religious groups, all have cult-like characteristics. Some of these things are very human organizational tendencies, cultural stuff. But I don't see a huge improvement in the way you guys are doing things - you're just rewinding to the pre-organized LDS Church (before all of JS's organization revelations, btw - which is another contradiction you guys chalk up to "the Campbellites wanting a New Testament Church" - which idea, of course, you've gotten from Denver - like the Israelites wanted a king - the Lord just always caves into whatever we want, to our condemnation, etc.). Well, now you've got a "Davidic Servant" (not in Israel, where this guy is supposed to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple - highly unlikely, but you're buying it), true messenger, a real prophet who is getting stuff done! All buildings and multiple temples are judged as robbing the poor. All true meetings should be held outside in the open air (I'm exaggerating here).

In essence, I see you trying to do some things culturally better than the LDS, but you are still a cult and more and more each passing month, Denver seems to be more central and indispensable to the progress of the movement. His talks are being laser etched onto stainless-steel plates for 1000+ year preservation - for crying out loud!

Biggest whammy is that you guys can't see how ridiculous and contradictory so much or your own stuff is - a huge red flag.

Next big move, btw - you can write this down as a prophecy - is there will be an exciting call to start gathering and building the log-cabin city somewhere in the mountains. Probably start as a tent city. Only the truly "chosen" will be willing to make this sacrifice and go start preparing the land and living an agrarian (think Amish) lifestyle, off the grid, in naked nature. Denver has to keep things moving, never stagnant, or people will lose interest/motivation. Always innovating. Temple fund is already in motion. You'll need a location for gathering and building and that will become the focus. After his talks in the 3 big U.S. cities don't have any real/tangible results or success. This will be interpreted to be the full rejection of the Gospel and true messenger by the rest of the Gentiles (the unbelieving Gentiles/Europeans or whatever).

This is just so ridiculous I have to take a break.
They seem to like the Grand Mesa in southern Colorado.

underdog
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

Jesef wrote: September 29th, 2017, 2:14 pm I'll readily admit that we have some cultural issues in the Church (humans and drama go hand in hand), but I could not in good conscience lay all of these at the leaders' feet. I see them decrying much of it, slowly shifting and changing a lot of it.

Underdog, the "5 Pillars of Mormonism" (mimicking the 5 Pillars of Islam), or 5-points of a (totally rote) testimony, are: 1) God is Our Father in Heaven, 2) Jesus Christ is Our Savior & Redeemer, 3) Joseph Smith was a true prophet, 4) The Book of Mormon is true, 5) The Church is true.

I'm unimpressed by the Denver-Snuffer-Remnant at this point. As a whole (collectively, not individually) I see hypocrisy, disunity/disorganization, contention, family & marriage dissolution, contradictory teachings, idolatry of Denver and/or Joseph and "the scriptures" (dead prophets). I see many cult-like tactics and characteristics, including:
> elitism, appears exclusive and innovative (you're "the Special", chosen, remnant, covenant people now) - but also recruiting
> fanatical sacrifice mentality (give all to the cause, sacrifice everything, including spouses, children, family for the "movement" or covenant or ZION or whatever - what the hell is ZION without your family anyway? ZION should be families first, composed of strong marriages and families, not leaving them behind)
> all-or-nothing thinking ("throwing the baby out with the bath water", LDS Church/Leaders/most-members all rejected/corrupt, all fake, all invalid, sweeping collective judgments, holding current people and leaders accountable for all past generations' wrongs/errors - this is contradicted by your stated views on individual salvation/repentance/faith)
> group-thinking (you are creating a new theology with a lot of talking points, mostly criticisms against the LDS Church/Leaders where you try to draw contrasts to how you've "repented" and are suprerior)
> confirmation bias (you only seem to accept confirming evidence, you ignore/minimize disconfirming evidence)
> us-vs-them mentality (persecution complex), as well as conspiracy theories (against the Mother Church and Leaders, particularly)
> guilt/fear (you will be left behind for not believing Denver, being re-baptized, new covenant, etc.)
> double standards & contradictions - a form of hypocrisy - where you apply criticisms to others (LDS Church/Leaders) that you do not apply to Denver Snuffer, Joseph Smith, or your own movement
> Messianic leader (the "Davidic Servant" Denver Snuffer)
> Information flow control (scripture project plus all Denver's utterances treated like scripture)

The LDS Church, and many "high demand" religious groups, all have cult-like characteristics. Some of these things are very human organizational tendencies, cultural stuff. But I don't see a huge improvement in the way you guys are doing things - you're just rewinding to the pre-organized LDS Church (before all of JS's organization revelations, btw - which is another contradiction you guys chalk up to "the Campbellites wanting a New Testament Church" - which idea, of course, you've gotten from Denver - like the Israelites wanted a king - the Lord just always caves into whatever we want, to our condemnation, etc.). Well, now you've got a "Davidic Servant" (not in Israel, where this guy is supposed to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple - highly unlikely, but you're buying it), true messenger, a real prophet who is getting stuff done! All buildings and multiple temples are judged as robbing the poor. All true meetings should be held outside in the open air (I'm exaggerating here).

In essence, I see you trying to do some things culturally better than the LDS, but you are still a cult and more and more each passing month, Denver seems to be more central and indispensable to the progress of the movement. His talks are being laser etched onto stainless-steel plates for 1000+ year preservation - for crying out loud!

Biggest whammy is that you guys can't see how ridiculous and contradictory so much or your own stuff is - a huge red flag.

Next big move, btw - you can write this down as a prophecy - is there will be an exciting call to start gathering and building the log-cabin city somewhere in the mountains. Probably start as a tent city. Only the truly "chosen" will be willing to make this sacrifice and go start preparing the land and living an agrarian (think Amish) lifestyle, off the grid, in naked nature. Denver has to keep things moving, never stagnant, or people will lose interest/motivation. Always innovating. Temple fund is already in motion. You'll need a location for gathering and building and that will become the focus. After his talks in the 3 big U.S. cities don't have any real/tangible results or success. This will be interpreted to be the full rejection of the Gospel and true messenger by the rest of the Gentiles (the unbelieving Gentiles/Europeans or whatever).

This is just so ridiculous I have to take a break.
Jesef,

You really have thought this through.

I've thought along your "prophetic" lines too. The problem with that picture, is that the government would move in to take the new "Branch Davidians" out. Trump can't control anything in his government. Bob Mueller's running the FBI and indicting Trump's friends and basically running the show. The Justice Dept still lets Hillary and Obama walk around free with no hint of indictment. The Swamp is full of swamp creatures with no end in sight.

Satan, through the Swamp government, will easily cause the BLM or BATF to raid and destroy the Branch Davidians' compound in the Rockies, with pleasure. To the cheers of the LDS Church who would issue a press release condemning the Branch and distancing themselves to prevent guilt by association. If God's hand repelled the attack, and it was national news, that would be too easy for everyone else to get a clue. Almost a free pass. So I don't think it will happen this way. Your idea makes some sense, but I just don't see the government keeping its greedy, controlling hands off a budding Zion community.

No, ...if this is God's work, I don't see how the government can even exist. It will have to be destroyed. That means war. Big time. 9/11 will be a picnic, as America is "swept off" per the BoM. With the government destroyed and chaos reigning, starvation imminent, and utter extinction a real possibility, I think Zion could possibly take root without interference by others.

God will speak to those and gather His elect. Think of the movie The Stand. I think it'll be like that.

Of course, I am probably wrong. I'm almost certain I'm wrong. But if I'm right, then it'll be vital to hear the voice of God and know where to gather.

The point is that it will be unexpected. It's a strange work. The ancient Egyptians built great temples that we don't even have machines to build today. Perhaps the temple will be built as Nephi was instructed to build his ship. God will be involved.

Jesef, I hope to see you there, my good brother. You're open enough to receive revelation on the matter. I hope I am too.

Here's the deal. the sign of the birth of the kingdom of God was given THIS month, 9/23. Next, the dragon is to wage war. Stars are to fall from heaven. If that's an innocuous meteor shower, I will be surprised. Rev 12 says the dragon will come after the child. It will fly into the wilderness. The child (the kingdom of God) will have 3.5 years of peace. It should be interesting. Roll up your sleeves. I honestly have no clue what will happen, but I think the time is near. However, I've thought that for so many times in my life that I doubt my own thoughts. The difference this time is the Sept 23 sign, and the Aug 21 eclipse which of course, virtually nobody understands or gives any credence to.
Last edited by underdog on September 29th, 2017, 3:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

underdog
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Posts: 495

Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

Jesef wrote: September 29th, 2017, 2:38 pm Denver is just a bunch of words. If The Lord was going to condemn/damn the Brethren using a legitimate outsider-prophet (this assumes your discontinuity theory is true - which hangs A LOT on, well, the subjunctive mood) - I'm pretty sure he would have done it Jesus-style, with power. Miracles, real Enoch-Melchizedek-Jesus-style Priesthood power - in your face "false Brethren" - "you all be rejected!" No such thing, just lots of books and blogging and letters from Denver. Can't even get the Holy Ghost to manifest the truth of him in any discernible way. You guys had to redefine "the Power" in its weakest and most subtle form to even bring it into the discussion. Grandiose delusions is much, much, much more likely what is at play here.

Here's a disconfirming, but somewhat fringe, heterodox perspective from a spiritually gifted, and still LDS, guy, you might find interesting:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45814&p=811302&sid ... 48#p811297

Denver doesn't sound like this "Josephite" (one might and strong, I think), or the "Davidic Servant" who will rebuild the Jerusalem Temple.

In other words, "we ain't seen nothin' yet" (from Denver, for sure, or anyone else, for that matter).
When I read his stuff, I feel like it's "just a bunch of words". Hollow. Uninspiring. My discernment is that he is not of God. He doesn't claim to be "sent" anyway. He's got an agenda. And it involves you listening to HIM. Denver's writings fill you with light and wonder, as reading the Scriptures do.

We shall see, Jesef. I really don't think Christ is going to dazzle the people with miracles and great power this time around. Until it's "too late." I think what happened to the Nephites will happen to us. Mass destruction. A few survive. They are then gathered. We're too stiffnecked and tied to what we "know" is best.

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Arenera
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

underdog wrote: September 29th, 2017, 3:03 pm
Jesef wrote: September 29th, 2017, 2:38 pm Denver is just a bunch of words. If The Lord was going to condemn/damn the Brethren using a legitimate outsider-prophet (this assumes your discontinuity theory is true - which hangs A LOT on, well, the subjunctive mood) - I'm pretty sure he would have done it Jesus-style, with power. Miracles, real Enoch-Melchizedek-Jesus-style Priesthood power - in your face "false Brethren" - "you all be rejected!" No such thing, just lots of books and blogging and letters from Denver. Can't even get the Holy Ghost to manifest the truth of him in any discernible way. You guys had to redefine "the Power" in its weakest and most subtle form to even bring it into the discussion. Grandiose delusions is much, much, much more likely what is at play here.

Here's a disconfirming, but somewhat fringe, heterodox perspective from a spiritually gifted, and still LDS, guy, you might find interesting:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45814&p=811302&sid ... 48#p811297

Denver doesn't sound like this "Josephite" (one might and strong, I think), or the "Davidic Servant" who will rebuild the Jerusalem Temple.

In other words, "we ain't seen nothin' yet" (from Denver, for sure, or anyone else, for that matter).
When I read his stuff, I feel like it's "just a bunch of words". Hollow. Uninspiring. My discernment is that he is not of God. He doesn't claim to be "sent" anyway. He's got an agenda. And it involves you listening to HIM. Denver's writings fill you with light and wonder, as reading the Scriptures do.

We shall see, Jesef. I really don't think Christ is going to dazzle the people with miracles and great power this time around. Until it's "too late." I think what happened to the Nephites will happen to us. Mass destruction. A few survive. They are then gathered. We're too stiffnecked and tied to what we "know" is best.
The adversary and Snuffer have you distracted and focused on the things of the world, you could call it darkness. You aren't preparing for the future because you are distracted.

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Jesef
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Jesef »

I think those are possible signs and interpretations. We'll see what happens in actual reality - wars, destruction of the nations, etc. If things continue as they are - even if there's a non-catastrophic war with North Korea, such a development would not qualify, it would have to be literally catastrophic - then we just keep waiting and watching. If catastrophic things - like government dissolving type stuff - actually happen and no warning comes from the LDS Brethren - well, that would be a pretty big whammy that they aren't very good PSR's or watchmen on the tower (who see things afar off and can warn us). Their warnings today are fairly mild and repetitive, nothing of impending disaster - so this is a clear line of demarcation between them and Denver - very different messaging. Also, such catastrophes would affect power, communications, order, etc., and would be very disruptive to Church function. So if there were no warning, everyone would find themselves isolated and cut off, except to local leaders - which have traditionally done a pretty good job at helping members through temporary disasters and such.

Before massive destruction, it seems, The Lord does often leave the people without excuse. Nephi/Lehi worked mighty miracles and people couldn't disbelieve their words, similar to Christ. John the Baptist didn't have to do that because Christ was right there. So there is a precedent for big stuff to precede big stuff. If it's all a game of subtle discernment - well - all I can say to that is that I think The True God will actually look at people's life choices, not whether they did some spiritual hokey-pokey just right. I think if it were about spiritual hokey-pokey's, They would make it more powerful and obvious, more blatant. If it's about character and real goodness - universal truths such as honesty, mercy/forgiveness, gentleness, love, giving, helping, etc. - then I don't think Snufferites have that market cornered (neither do LDS or any other religion, per se). God is still sending innocent little babies down to families in every culture and circumstance - that gives me hope for all of us.

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shadow
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by shadow »

underdog wrote: September 29th, 2017, 2:25 pm
Imagine bringing your strongest evidence against a man accused of murder. You (Shadow), the prosecution, says, "Your honor, I'd like to present my prima facie evidence to the court that proves he is a murderer." The judge says, "Show us what you got! We've been waiting for so long." Then there's the drum roll. And you say, "Since the defendant decided not to enter the court room today, we declare that this is evidence that he is guilty of murder!" Everyone in the court room looks at each other with bewilderment. Some burst out laughing.

The fair judge says, "Mr. Prosecutor, look. I don't like the fact that he didn't follow my instructions to enter, but in the name of Integrity, in the name of Justice, in the name of Fairness, in the name of all that is Right and Wrong in the Universe, your proposed evidence has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether he committed murder. Case dismissed! However, I'll fine the man $500 for contempt of court for not entering the court room with his family."

Give me a break.

In the meantime, back in reality (a place snufferites never go), if you don't show up to court for something you're accused of you typically are deemed guilty. The laugh is on you, the ignorant.

"Default judgment is a binding judgment in favor of either party based on some failure to take action by the other party. Most often, it is a judgment in favor of a plaintiff when the defendant has not responded to a summons or has failed to appear before a court of law. The failure to take action is the default. The default judgment is the relief requested in the party's original petition."



It's difficult to have discussions with Snufferites.

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underdog
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by underdog »

Jesef wrote: September 29th, 2017, 3:28 pm I think those are possible signs and interpretations. We'll see what happens in actual reality - wars, destruction of the nations, etc. If things continue as they are - even if there's a non-catastrophic war with North Korea, such a development would not qualify, it would have to be literally catastrophic - then we just keep waiting and watching. If catastrophic things - like government dissolving type stuff - actually happen and no warning comes from the LDS Brethren - well, that would be a pretty big whammy that they aren't very good PSR's or watchmen on the tower (who see things afar off and can warn us). Their warnings today are fairly mild and repetitive, nothing of impending disaster - so this is a clear line of demarcation between them and Denver - very different messaging. Also, such catastrophes would affect power, communications, order, etc., and would be very disruptive to Church function. So if there were no warning, everyone would find themselves isolated and cut off, except to local leaders - which have traditionally done a pretty good job at helping members through temporary disasters and such.

Before massive destruction, it seems, The Lord does often leave the people without excuse. Nephi/Lehi worked mighty miracles and people couldn't disbelieve their words, similar to Christ. John the Baptist didn't have to do that because Christ was right there. So there is a precedent for big stuff to precede big stuff. If it's all a game of subtle discernment - well - all I can say to that is that I think The True God will actually look at people's life choices, not whether they did some spiritual hokey-pokey just right. I think if it were about spiritual hokey-pokey's, They would make it more powerful and obvious, more blatant. If it's about character and real goodness - universal truths such as honesty, mercy/forgiveness, gentleness, love, giving, helping, etc. - then I don't think Snufferites have that market cornered (neither do LDS or any other religion, per se). God is still sending innocent little babies down to families in every culture and circumstance - that gives me hope for all of us.
Very well said, Jesef.

The so-called Snufferites definitely don't have the market cornered. Perhaps the decentralized model where all are equals makes the most sense in the world you describe, which is the reality that there are good individuals and families in every culture and circumstance who can hearken to His voice. I think the Nephite "destruction" model could apply to the whole world.

I do think if the Sept 23 is the beginning of the clock ticking, that it's quite chilling to contemplate that "Noah" just gave his first of three warnings to the Christians 8 days ago, and there's two remaining, one in Oct and a final message in November. If the clock is ticking, then I expect at least one dire prediction in Oct or more likely November. In Sept he said he is basically "Noah" before the flood. This means we should expect a prophesy like Amos 3:7 teaches us prophets do, which is warn us BEFORE God does something.

The LDS prophets, seers, and revelators have a chance to say something this weekend. Let's see if that happens. It'll be interesting if they try to "keep up with the Joneses" and try to one up Denver. They may not be giving any attn whatsoever to Denver.

The expectation was Denver would unveil himself 8 days ago. He did that. As predicted. The next message, in my unprophetic view, in Oct will be, following Noah's preaching, that "a flood is coming, repent!". With the final message being, "get on the boat before it's too late." The only way he's defining "boat" at this point is to accept Christ by repenting and being baptized by one with authority. Oh, and of course, there's the covenant.

God is a covenant God, and no doubt the covenant is a big part of the picture.

May all of us, I pray to Heavenly Father, open our eyes and ears and have the courage to obey the Spirit, no matter where we live, I humbly pray and ask in the name of Jesus Christ. The time may be short. With the passing of the solar eclipse in August (signifying something not good) and the great wonder in the heavens of the child being born to the virgin on 9/23, I think the clock is ticking. If so, God MUST warn the people. From whom will the warnings come? And what will the warnings be?
Last edited by underdog on September 29th, 2017, 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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