Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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Finrock
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Finrock »

Thomas wrote: September 30th, 2017, 9:41 pm
Jonesy wrote: September 30th, 2017, 9:01 pm Thomas, I share a similar story as you. Have you been re-baptized? If so, have you told your bishop that? In my case I was about to be re-baptized, but the bishop said that if I did then he would have to excommunicate me. He even asked that if I go through with it then for me to resign rather than go through a council.

Looking back, I was fully in deception. I had very similar thoughts. I even had various experiences after.

It wasn't until I emailed a good trustworthy friend, who I'd been out of touch with, and asked his opinion that altered my course. So, how was it that in my full deception could I come out of it? It took faith from outside. I suppose that I gave way for a spot in me for the faith to be planted. And his words of faith were carried by the Spirit into my heart. It changed me over night when I read his email. It truly was a miracle. It was embarrassing to come back, too! After that, there were others put in my place to ease my way and understanding back in the church. I maybe took it harder than I should have.

Anyways, I just want you to know that there's more of your journey to experience. I likely don't have that faith that could alter your course, but I hope that at least you can keep a place open in your heart to come back.
Not only did I tell my bishop I have been re-baptized, I invited him to be re-baptized. He said he was going to call the Stake President and that I should expect to hear from him. That was several months ago and the only thing I have heard from the church is a card asking me to come back from the ward.

I am wondering if the church has changed their tactics. Perhaps they feel it is best to ignore it now but who knows. Maybe the axe is coming. If it is, I am fine with it. It will be my opportunity to do what God has asked of me.

I not saying this to be condescending but I am not surprised that you feel that way after turning back from baptism. If you turn from the path, you lose all the knowledge you have gained.

My re-baptism filled me with the spirit. Filled me with love and the spirit of prophecy. The scriptures opened up more fully to me. Prophecy was given to me about my future.
You did the honorable thing by telling your bishop and I commend you for that!

-Finrock

Finrock
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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Jesef wrote: October 1st, 2017, 1:15 pm I wan't to point out one other thing. Thomas, JDT, Underdog, you have not "awakened" from Snufferism yet - I hope you do - you will find that there is more, there is an actual universal/eternal perspective - A God/Creator of All, not just your tribal god who plays favorites based on spurious, capricious, and unfair criteria.


This ^^^^

-Finrock

Thomas
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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Finrock wrote: October 2nd, 2017, 8:39 am
Jesef wrote: October 1st, 2017, 1:15 pm I wan't to point out one other thing. Thomas, JDT, Underdog, you have not "awakened" from Snufferism yet - I hope you do - you will find that there is more, there is an actual universal/eternal perspective - A God/Creator of All, not just your tribal god who plays favorites based on spurious, capricious, and unfair criteria.


This ^^^^

-Finrock
Its not about playing favorites. Its about being willing to learn. If you entice your child to go to school and they wont go, you will still love them but that love doesn't turn them into what they need to be in order to make it in life. So it is with spiritual things. If you will refuse what God offers, you will miss out on it no matter how much he would like for you to have it.

Silver
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Silver »

Thomas wrote: October 2nd, 2017, 9:49 am
Finrock wrote: October 2nd, 2017, 8:39 am
Jesef wrote: October 1st, 2017, 1:15 pm I wan't to point out one other thing. Thomas, JDT, Underdog, you have not "awakened" from Snufferism yet - I hope you do - you will find that there is more, there is an actual universal/eternal perspective - A God/Creator of All, not just your tribal god who plays favorites based on spurious, capricious, and unfair criteria.


This ^^^^

-Finrock
Its not about playing favorites. Its about being willing to learn. If you entice your child to go to school and they wont go, you will still love them but that love doesn't turn them into what they need to be in order to make it in life. So it is with spiritual things. If you will refuse what God offers, you will miss out on it no matter how much he would like for you to have it.
God, in His infinite wisdom, offered you a message yesterday, through an ordained Apostle, a man called of God and named Elder M. Russell Ballard. Now, in spite of that great gift, it seems you are quite unwilling to accept what God is offering and prefer to stick with the Apostate, Denver Snuffer. However, God, in His infinite wisdom, also allows you the agency to choose so you will experience the consequences of your choice.

Finrock
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Finrock »

Thomas wrote: October 2nd, 2017, 9:49 am
Finrock wrote: October 2nd, 2017, 8:39 am
Jesef wrote: October 1st, 2017, 1:15 pm I wan't to point out one other thing. Thomas, JDT, Underdog, you have not "awakened" from Snufferism yet - I hope you do - you will find that there is more, there is an actual universal/eternal perspective - A God/Creator of All, not just your tribal god who plays favorites based on spurious, capricious, and unfair criteria.


This ^^^^

-Finrock
Its not about playing favorites. Its about being willing to learn. If you entice your child to go to school and they wont go, you will still love them but that love doesn't turn them into what they need to be in order to make it in life. So it is with spiritual things. If you will refuse what God offers, you will miss out on it no matter how much he would like for you to have it.
Being a part of a particular group doesn't make you good or great. The same sociocentric reasoning and mentality exist even in the LDS Church. That is why I have said before that switching to Denver Snuffer's movement or church doesn't resolve the issues that exist in the LDS Church, which is the same issue that existed in the Jewish church before and during the time of Christ. They believed that because they were part of a special group or they had a particular lineage or heritage, that made them one of the chosen ones. Sociocentric tendencies exist all over the place, with each group or organization thinking that their group is the right group and the teachings of their group are the superior teachings and if you aren't a part of their special group, well then you aren't one of the chosen/elect/special ones who will be saved. The truth is that God is greater than any single person's or single group's paradigm. There is a universal Truth/Good/Love/God that encompasses all things and which is found in everything and everyone, to some degree or another.

We are familiar with the name of Christ. But if you look around you will find many people who are filled with the Spirit of Christ, even people who aren't a part of your group and who may not even know the name Christ. That is because Christ has many names and is known by many identities, but it is all the same Light/Life/Truth.

We know Christ by the fruits of Christ or the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

-Finrock

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Jesef
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Jesef »

underdog wrote: September 29th, 2017, 5:15 pm
Jesef wrote: September 29th, 2017, 4:39 pm Can you link or quote where Denver “unveiled himself” please?
In his talk last Thursday. I'm not aware of a transcript, but you can listen to it here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46599#p809572
  • He spoke of the last days being like the days of Noah.
  • He said all signs will be fulfilled in this generation.
  • He said therefore there would be prophets to warn us (we would not be left to ourselves), like in the days of Noah.
  • He discussed the significance of being "sent." Saying that is who we should listen to, and them only, if you want to hear a message from God.
  • Then he proclaimed he was "sent" by God. This was him "unveiling" himself, in my view.
Very straightforward, and almost apologetic.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46599#p809585
underdog wrote: September 21st, 2017, 9:45 pm Major prophesy was uttered, IMHO.

For interested people who missed it, the highlights were as follows:

  • He spent time on discussing what it means to "be sent."
  • He taught the doctrine of Christ.
  • Invited all to be baptized.
  • Said read Matthew 24, which is about the signs immediately preceding the Second Coming.
  • Said the signs have begun.
  • Referred to verse 34 saying ALL the signs will be fulfilled in THIS generation. Big time prophesy.
  • Said to be of good cheer, that prophets will be among you. As in PLURALITY of prophets.
  • Said that if you're going to listen to a preacher who says he has a message from God, you should only listen to one who has been sent.
  • He bore testimony at the end that he knows Christ lives, for he has seen Him, as Paul saw Him.
  • He compared himself to Noah.
  • Said the end times will be like Noah's day. That's the scary part. But said the good news is that there will be prophets sent, just as Noah was sent.
I'm going to listen to the whole thing. But thank you for your summary, Underdog. If Denver is telling the actual truth (reality), then all of these things will be plainly observable in the next 20-40 years (this generation), including the signs, wonders, miracles, and great fulfillments of prophecies throughout all the scriptures. Events such as rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem will be particularly visible and news-worthy. Many of these things, I would point out, cannot happen if the entire fabric of civilized society unravels. Apparently all of this is balanced with the natural disasters, cosmic catastrophes (asteroid impacts, etc.), wars, and worldwide shake-ups. Hurricanes/storms, floods, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, etc., while "signs of the times" in a way, have been going on all along. Jerusalem Temple rebuild would be historic and unprecedented. Major asteroid impact likewise. Super-volcanic eruption likewise. So we would expect to see unprecedented events.

To put it in perspective, for example, let's take volcanic eruptions: there have been huge, locally destructive volcanic eruptions throughout recorded and recent history. I'm sure people living near them, like Mt. Vesuvius, when they went off felt like it was the end of the world (and it may have been the end of theirs, for all practical purposes) but they weren't global and did not mark the beginning of the end-times, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_k ... _eruptions

My point is precedented vs unprecedented events marking the actual "end of the world" will be markedly different and undeniable. The purpose of these unprecedented end-times signs, wonders, and catastrophes is to stir people up to repentance, not just slap everyone in the face and tell them "ha, ha, it's too late and you missed the boat." Does The Lord really try to "scare" (use fear) to inspire people to repent (and exercise faith/trust in Him)? That seems weird.

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lemuel
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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Jesef wrote: September 29th, 2017, 2:14 pm I'll readily admit that we have some cultural issues in the Church (humans and drama go hand in hand), but I could not in good conscience lay all of these at the leaders' feet. I see them decrying much of it, slowly shifting and changing a lot of it.

Underdog, the "5 Pillars of Mormonism" (mimicking the 5 Pillars of Islam), or 5-points of a (totally rote) testimony, are: 1) God is Our Father in Heaven, 2) Jesus Christ is Our Savior & Redeemer, 3) Joseph Smith was a true prophet, 4) The Book of Mormon is true, 5) The Church is true.
Jesef--

You won't lay the problems of cultural mormonism at the leaders feet, but you seem to be perfectly willing to lay the follies of the remnantites at the feet of Snuffer.
Jesef wrote: September 29th, 2017, 2:14 pm I'm unimpressed by the Denver-Snuffer-Remnant at this point. As a whole (collectively, not individually) I see hypocrisy, disunity/disorganization, contention, family & marriage dissolution, contradictory teachings, idolatry of Denver and/or Joseph and "the scriptures" (dead prophets). I see many cult-like tactics and characteristics, including:
> elitism, appears exclusive and innovative (you're "the Special", chosen, remnant, covenant people now) - but also recruiting
> fanatical sacrifice mentality (give all to the cause, sacrifice everything, including spouses, children, family for the "movement" or covenant or ZION or whatever - what the hell is ZION without your family anyway? ZION should be families first, composed of strong marriages and families, not leaving them behind)
> all-or-nothing thinking ("throwing the baby out with the bath water", LDS Church/Leaders/most-members all rejected/corrupt, all fake, all invalid, sweeping collective judgments, holding current people and leaders accountable for all past generations' wrongs/errors - this is contradicted by your stated views on individual salvation/repentance/faith)
> group-thinking (you are creating a new theology with a lot of talking points, mostly criticisms against the LDS Church/Leaders where you try to draw contrasts to how you've "repented" and are suprerior)
> confirmation bias (you only seem to accept confirming evidence, you ignore/minimize disconfirming evidence)
> us-vs-them mentality (persecution complex), as well as conspiracy theories (against the Mother Church and Leaders, particularly)
> guilt/fear (you will be left behind for not believing Denver, being re-baptized, new covenant, etc.)
> double standards & contradictions - a form of hypocrisy - where you apply criticisms to others (LDS Church/Leaders) that you do not apply to Denver Snuffer, Joseph Smith, or your own movement
> Messianic leader (the "Davidic Servant" Denver Snuffer)
> Information flow control (scripture project plus all Denver's utterances treated like scripture)
New movements attract lots of crazy people. This is no different from what went down at Isaac Morley's farm. (Doesn't mean it's a good movement either.) . While many are eager to sacrifice whatever, it's a fool that sacrifices something the Lord hasn't asked him to sacrifice and calls it a sacrifice.
Jesef wrote: September 29th, 2017, 2:14 pm The LDS Church, and many "high demand" religious groups, all have cult-like characteristics. Some of these things are very human organizational tendencies, cultural stuff. But I don't see a huge improvement in the way you guys are doing things - you're just rewinding to the pre-organized LDS Church (before all of JS's organization revelations, btw - which is another contradiction you guys chalk up to "the Campbellites wanting a New Testament Church" - which idea, of course, you've gotten from Denver - like the Israelites wanted a king - the Lord just always caves into whatever we want, to our condemnation, etc.). Well, now you've got a "Davidic Servant" (not in Israel, where this guy is supposed to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple - highly unlikely, but you're buying it), true messenger, a real prophet who is getting stuff done! All buildings and multiple temples are judged as robbing the poor. All true meetings should be held outside in the open air (I'm exaggerating here).

In essence, I see you trying to do some things culturally better than the LDS, but you are still a cult and more and more each passing month, Denver seems to be more central and indispensable to the progress of the movement. His talks are being laser etched onto stainless-steel plates for 1000+ year preservation - for crying out loud!

Biggest whammy is that you guys can't see how ridiculous and contradictory so much or your own stuff is - a huge red flag.

Next big move, btw - you can write this down as a prophecy - is there will be an exciting call to start gathering and building the log-cabin city somewhere in the mountains. Probably start as a tent city. Only the truly "chosen" will be willing to make this sacrifice and go start preparing the land and living an agrarian (think Amish) lifestyle, off the grid, in naked nature. Denver has to keep things moving, never stagnant, or people will lose interest/motivation. Always innovating. Temple fund is already in motion. You'll need a location for gathering and building and that will become the focus. After his talks in the 3 big U.S. cities don't have any real/tangible results or success. This will be interpreted to be the full rejection of the Gospel and true messenger by the rest of the Gentiles (the unbelieving Gentiles/Europeans or whatever).

This is just so ridiculous I have to take a break.
You're a good dude Jesef (we had dinner before the Phoenix talk iirc). Plenty of remnantites think they're special. They're damned if they think that. I try not to make any assumptions about what Zion will require besides a pure heart. It's a good thing that angels gather zion.
JST Luke 17:36 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord, shall they be taken?

37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered, thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.

38 This he spake, signifying the gathering of his saints; and of angels descending and gathering the remainder unto them; the one from the bed, the other from the grinding, and the other from the field, whithersoever he listeth.
I haven't seen much of a prepper/ live in the wilderness vibe from Snuffer. If camping skillz is a prerequisite for Zion then I'm not a candidate for zion.
(Although this guy totally belongs in any zion) The hard part is getting people with pure hearts. I can't honestly say that I'm one of them. I'm still working out my salvation with fear & trembling. I don't know exactly how Zion will come about, but I honestly can't see it happening by way of the Q15 that spoke this weekend. They're nice guys doing their best, but I don't see it happening with them. I don't think they're gadiantons or anything. I could be wrong on any of this, I see through a glass darkly just like anyone else, but I think Snuffer's a helluva teacher.

I doubt his talks in TX & Atlanta will be well attended. As to whether or not his talks will signify the end of the times of the gentiles, well, we probably don't need someone to announce it to us:
D&C 45:28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; 29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men. 30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land. 32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.
If there's an overflowing scourge and desolating sickness, then the times of the gentiles are likely over. For some reason the thing that sticks in my head is a disease that only kills white people--like smallpox in reverse.

We all have the same commandments in front of us--some apostate mormons will keep them, some orthodox mormons will keep them, and some non-mormons will keep them. Those will be the ones who inherit zion.

I hope to see y'all there, whichever team you're on.

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Jesef
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Jesef »

Lemuel & I have corresponded privately and he's brought some good things to my attention, for which I publicly thank him. I wanted to clarify on the thread here that I do not actually lay all the shenanigans in the movement at Denver's feet (just as I do not blame the LDS Brethren for all our cultural or traditional nonsense). Denver is the Joseph-Smith/Prophet/Leader figure in his movement, but he is not responsible for everything going on. He has deliberately tried to be as "hands off" as possible, as far as I can tell, trying to imitate Joseph's "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves" philosophy. Their movement is also VERY young - it could be compared to the Kirtland era of the Church. They've got revelation all over the place and false spirits (like this spiritual wifery business), etc., etc. People quote Denver's followers (and their misinterpretations or misunderstandings) and attribute them to Denver. It's a mess. I do see him trying to correct things he sees amiss. I think many, even a majority, of the folks in the movement have a 100% genuine/pure desire to build and be apart of a ZION. I don't fault them for that. In the Church it seems like ZION has just become this far-off almost mythological fantasy that is never really going to happen (we hardly ever talk about it unless we're specifically discussing certain D&C sections or Book of Moses chapters).

And I do think our LDS/Mormon culture has become quite Mosaic (like the children of Israel & Moses) in that we tend to operate on a Lesser/Aaronic Priesthood type level most of the time. As I've grown up in the Church, the focus on "follow the Prophet, he knows the way" and standards as commandments has been undeniable. Not unlike the orthodox Jews, btw, with their 613 commandments that they try very hard to keep (except the Temple ones they can't keep yet). We tend to focus on the things that "set us apart" as a "peculiar people" (& Royal Priesthood) from everybody else. We give 10% to the Church/Lord, we don't drink, smoke, or do drugs, and we don't have sex prior to or outside of marriage. We are cleaner than the rest of the world, whose standards have obviously slid down the mountainside (I'm being sardonic here, not self-righteous). And look how busy we are serving the Lord (each other) in our Church callings, etc.

So I teach Sunday School and wanted to do a little experiment relating to commandments. The topic for all of September was "commandments", so I asked the class of 13-14 year-olds to help me make a list of commandments on the board. They listed many of the things you would expect: Tithing, Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity. Probably because these are the things asked in their interviews with the Bishopric annually and for Temple baptismal recommends. They did not instinctively mention the Ten Commandments, or the Two Great Commandments, or the Golden Rule, or the Sermon on the Mount, or the Doctrine of Christ (to have/exercise faith in Christ, to repent, to be baptized, to receive the Holy Ghost). This, of course, gave me plenty of stuff to teach, but come on! The Word of Wisdom and Tithing were so (un-)important that Jesus didn't or barely even mentioned them (in the Gospels & 3 Nephi), but they have become our defining characteristics (next to polygamy) and our hallmarks of "worthiness". If you are traditional/orthodox LDS/Mormon, you have to step outside your box (confirmation bias) for a minute to process this and try to put it in perspective. Have we, as a people/culture, lost some sight of what the real/true commandments of Jesus are? Don't get me wrong, I hear a lot of these good things taught and emphasized - even in this most recent General Conference - the focus on Christ and Love has been increasing. All I'm saying is that my experiment could probably be repeated in almost any Sunday School class in the Church, at almost any age group, including adults, and the results would probably be similar. I would love to see our culture shift to the point where the answer to such a question, "what are the commandments (of Jesus or The Lord)?", be those very things that would make us Christlike (the things in bold in this paragraph). The Protestants and the Remnant often do a much better job at emphasizing these things.

Fellow LDS/Mormon Brothers & Sisters, don't take this the wrong way - I'm not criticizing the Leaders here or laying these problems at their feet - just taking an honest look at our culture. Many of the Remnant's and other critics' criticisms of our culture are valid. But we can repent - individually. And collectively, we can shift our culture in the right direction (toward Christ, the Ideal). I believe we already are, btw. And I don't believe we have to leave the Church to repent. This is where I think Denver is dead-wrong. He felt (or thinks he knows or whatever the right way to say it is) that The Lord told him the Church (& Leaders) were too corrupt and could not be reformed (collectively repent), much like the Catholic Church - so he started a new Restoration, which he claims is picking up where Joseph left it when he died. We'll see. They literally have not accomplished anything significant yet.

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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by silk »

Jesef,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Often I think the focus is on outward commandments (like Word of Wisdom, Tithing, Chastity), especially to the youth, because they are a means to an end. Keeping those commandments helps to keep our sensitivity high to the Spirit, and thus helps us to receive counsel, knowledge, and a testifying witness of truth. This, in turn, helps us to have a greater desire to seek the Savior, and a great witness of Him when we do. But if we start acting like the commandments are an end in and of themselves, instead of just the means, that is a problem.

I remember some years past when I became energetic and committed to keeping all of the Lord's commandments. I wanted to be perfect in all of them. So I prayed to the Lord to help me learn all of his commandments so I could keep them exactly. After that, I opened my scriptures up randomly, ready to receive the counsel from heaven as to where to start. I, of course, was thinking of the more black-and-white commandments. Instead, I opened up on the Sermon on the Mount. I started to read, and immediately felt very humbled. The challenge of the gospel truly isn't just to know, or even do, but to become. And that's only possible through faith on, repentance through, and total reliance on our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

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Jesef
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Jesef »

I just watched Denver's entire talk given in LA, directed at non-Mormon Christians. It was interesting.

One of the arguments he made was very similar to an LDS/Mormon argument: if The Lord never changes, is the same yesterday, today, and forever, etc., then if he spoke to and ministered to witnesses and "sent" them to preach to the world (the meaning of the Greek original word of "apostle"), then why wouldn't he continue to do so, and in our day? And Denver is asserting that he has been "sent" with a divinely authorized and originated message as Joseph Smith also was. The flaw in this argument is that it does not address the gaps. Why would The Lord abandon any generation or leave them without a real, divinely authorized and sent messenger/apostle/preacher? Why would there be a 170-year gap between Joseph and Denver? Why would there be a nearly 1800-year gap between Jesus and His Apostles and Joseph Smith? It's an argument based on unchangeability that would be contingent upon continuity and perpetuity that is not being claimed.

It is similar to the argument Mormon apparently makes in Moroni 8 for why infant baptism would make The Lord a partial and changeable God/being.
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
But would not the same argument apply to any person not afforded the opportunity to learn the Gospel and be baptized? Why is baptism required at all if it is not offered to all mankind? (Yes, I know we compensate for this with baptism for the dead) But, if the Gospel is so important to possess and live in this life (the Test of Mortality), why does He not provide it to everyone on earth? Why do less than 0.01% get the privilege when we are saying these commandments and requirements apply to everyone? Why does He not impartially raise up prophets in every culture, in every language, across the globe, whether connected or isolated, and give those prophets/messengers/apostles the exact same message to impart to their people, giving them the exact same fair and equitable opportunity to accept/believe or reject that message and invitation to be baptized, etc.? Why would he raise up one Joseph Smith or one Denver Snuffer whose reaches and influence are so small, so provincial, so limited as to almost meaningless in the sea of humanity, particularly today with over 7.5 Billion souls on Earth?

It doesn't make any sense. People make arguments using The Lord's character (like unchangeableness) without fully applying them to reality.

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Arenera
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Arenera »

Jesef wrote: October 10th, 2017, 10:47 am I just watched Denver's entire talk given in LA, directed at non-Mormon Christians. It was interesting.

One of the arguments he made was very similar to an LDS/Mormon argument: if The Lord never changes, is the same yesterday, today, and forever, etc., then if he spoke to and ministered to witnesses and "sent" them to preach to the world (the meaning of the Greek original word of "apostle"), then why wouldn't he continue to do so, and in our day? And Denver is asserting that he has been "sent" with a divinely authorized and originated message as Joseph Smith also was. The flaw in this argument is that it does not address the gaps. Why would The Lord abandon any generation or leave them without a real, divinely authorized and sent messenger/apostle/preacher? Why would there be a 170-year gap between Joseph and Denver? Why would there be a nearly 1800-year gap between Jesus and His Apostles and Joseph Smith? It's an argument based on unchangeability that would be contingent upon continuity and perpetuity that is not being claimed.

It is similar to the argument Mormon apparently makes in Moroni 8 for why infant baptism would make The Lord a partial and changeable God/being.
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
But would not the same argument apply to any person not afforded the opportunity to learn the Gospel and be baptized? Why is baptism required at all if it is not offered to all mankind? (Yes, I know we compensate for this with baptism for the dead) But, if the Gospel is so important to possess and live in this life (the Test of Mortality), why does He not provide it to everyone on earth? Why do less than 0.01% get the privilege when we are saying these commandments and requirements apply to everyone? Why does He not impartially raise up prophets in every culture, in every language, across the globe, whether connected or isolated, and give those prophets/messengers/apostles the exact same message to impart to their people, giving them the exact same fair and equitable opportunity to accept/believe or reject that message and invitation to be baptized, etc.? Why would he raise up one Joseph Smith or one Denver Snuffer whose reaches and influence are so small, so provincial, so limited as to almost meaningless in the sea of humanity, particularly today with over 7.5 Billion souls on Earth?

It doesn't make any sense. People make arguments using The Lord's character (like unchangeableness) without fully applying them to reality.
Fruits of a false prophet. Only disaffected Mormons might listen to him. Non Mormons would think he is a kook.

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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by eddie »

Thomas wrote: September 30th, 2017, 9:41 pm
Jonesy wrote: September 30th, 2017, 9:01 pm Thomas, I share a similar story as you. Have you been re-baptized? If so, have you told your bishop that? In my case I was about to be re-baptized, but the bishop said that if I did then he would have to excommunicate me. He even asked that if I go through with it then for me to resign rather than go through a council.

Looking back, I was fully in deception. I had very similar thoughts. I even had various experiences after.

It wasn't until I emailed a good trustworthy friend, who I'd been out of touch with, and asked his opinion that altered my course. So, how was it that in my full deception could I come out of it? It took faith from outside. I suppose that I gave way for a spot in me for the faith to be planted. And his words of faith were carried by the Spirit into my heart. It changed me over night when I read his email. It truly was a miracle. It was embarrassing to come back, too! After that, there were others put in my place to ease my way and understanding back in the church. I maybe took it harder than I should have.

Anyways, I just want you to know that there's more of your journey to experience. I likely don't have that faith that could alter your course, but I hope that at least you can keep a place open in your heart to come back.
Not only did I tell my bishop I have been re-baptized, I invited him to be re-baptized. He said he was going to call the Stake President and that I should expect to hear from him. That was several months ago and the only thing I have heard from the church is a card asking me to come back from the ward.

I am wondering if the church has changed their tactics. Perhaps they feel it is best to ignore it now but who knows. Maybe the axe is coming. If it is, I am fine with it. It will be my opportunity to do what God has asked of me.

I not saying this to be condescending but I am not surprised that you feel that way after turning back from baptism. If you turn from the path, you lose all the knowledge you have gained.

My re-baptism filled me with the spirit. Filled me with love and the spirit of prophecy. The scriptures opened up more fully to me. Prophecy was given to me about my future.
Oh Thomas, you have clearly been deceived, even Satan can appear as an Angel of light. I pray that you come back to the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Denver Snuffer is not a Prophet nor holds the keys, you will soon realize what a mistake you've made, I hope!

Thomas
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Thomas »

The LDS church has denied the fullness of the gospel.

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Jesef
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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Thomas, how do you define "the fullness of the gospel" which you claim "the LDS Church has denied"?

Please first reread D&C 39 before you answer with the Remnant-expected answer of "the Second Comforter in this life":
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... ng=eng#p10

If it makes you more comfortable, you can read the original revelation here:
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... transcript
but to as many as received me gave I power to become my Sons & even so will I give unto as many as Receive me power to become my Sons. & Verily Verily I say unto you he that receiveth my Gospel Receiveth me & this is my Gospel Repentance & Baptism by water & then [p. 58] Cometh the Baptism of fire & the Holy ghost yea even the comforter which knoweth all things & teacheth the peacibl things of the Kingdom
but behold the days of thy deliverance is come arise & be baptized & wash away your sins calling on my name & ye shall receive my spirit & a blessing so great as ye have never known & I have prepared thee for a greater work thou shalt Preach the fulness of my Gospel which I have sent forth in these last days. yea even the covenant which I have sent forth to recover my People which are of the house of Israel
Behold Verily Verily I say unto you that the people in Ohio call upon me in much faith believeing I would stay my hand in Judgement upon the Nations but I cannot deny my word Wherefore lay to with your might & call forth Labourers into my Vinyard that it may be pruned for the last time & inasmuch as they do Repent & receive the fulness of my Gospel & become sanctified & I will stay my hand in Judgement wherefore go forth crying with a loud voice saying the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand crying Hosannah blessed is the name of the most high God go forth [p. 59] Baptizing with water preparing for the time of my coming is at hand the day nor the hour no man knoweth but it shurely shall come & he that Receiveth these things receiveth me & they shall be gethered unto me into <unto> in time & in eternity & again it shall come to pass that on as many as ye shall baptize with water ye shall lay your hands in the name of Christ & they shall receive the Holy ghost & shall be a looking forth for the time of my coming & shall know me Behold I come quickly even so amen

Thomas
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Thomas »

Jesef wrote: October 10th, 2017, 5:43 pm Thomas, how do you define "the fullness of the gospel" which you claim "the LDS Church has denied"?

Please first reread D&C 39 before you answer with the Remnant-expected answer of "the Second Comforter in this life":
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... ng=eng#p10

If it makes you more comfortable, you can read the original revelation here:
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... transcript
but to as many as received me gave I power to become my Sons & even so will I give unto as many as Receive me power to become my Sons. & Verily Verily I say unto you he that receiveth my Gospel Receiveth me & this is my Gospel Repentance & Baptism by water & then [p. 58] Cometh the Baptism of fire & the Holy ghost yea even the comforter which knoweth all things & teacheth the peacibl things of the Kingdom
but behold the days of thy deliverance is come arise & be baptized & wash away your sins calling on my name & ye shall receive my spirit & a blessing so great as ye have never known & I have prepared thee for a greater work thou shalt Preach the fulness of my Gospel which I have sent forth in these last days. yea even the covenant which I have sent forth to recover my People which are of the house of Israel
Behold Verily Verily I say unto you that the people in Ohio call upon me in much faith believeing I would stay my hand in Judgement upon the Nations but I cannot deny my word Wherefore lay to with your might & call forth Labourers into my Vinyard that it may be pruned for the last time & inasmuch as they do Repent & receive the fulness of my Gospel & become sanctified & I will stay my hand in Judgement wherefore go forth crying with a loud voice saying the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand crying Hosannah blessed is the name of the most high God go forth [p. 59] Baptizing with water preparing for the time of my coming is at hand the day nor the hour no man knoweth but it shurely shall come & he that Receiveth these things receiveth me & they shall be gethered unto me into <unto> in time & in eternity & again it shall come to pass that on as many as ye shall baptize with water ye shall lay your hands in the name of Christ & they shall receive the Holy ghost & shall be a looking forth for the time of my coming & shall know me Behold I come quickly even so amen
The fullness of the gospel is described in D&C 84. Its a long section and its meant to be read in context. It talks about heeding the voice of the spirit. Heeding that voice leads to the priesthood being given by the mouth of Lord:
42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.
It also leads to this:
44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.

45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.

47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.
This describes being brought into the presence of the Father and being taught by him personally.

Anyone who has not had this experience is under the bondage the sin.
49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

So those not brought into the presence of God remain under the bondage of sin.

You must know God to have eternal life.
This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, D&C 132:24.
God talks to men. He reasons with them or has conversations with them. At least he does with true believers.
D&C 45: 10 Wherefore, come ye unto it, and with him that cometh I will reason as with men in days of old, and I will show unto you my strong reasoning

15 Wherefore, hearken and I will reason with you, and I will speak unto you and prophesy, as unto men in days of old.
.
Doctrine and Covenants 61:13
13 And now, behold, for your good I gave unto you a commandment concerning these things; and I, the Lord, will reason with you as with men in days of old.

Thomas
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Thomas »

As far as section 39 goes, you still must accept the fullness of the gospel, not the preparatory gospel the church has had. If you receive the Holy Ghost and do what it commands, you will come unto Christ and he will prepare you to meet the Father where the burden of sin can be lifted from you. That is the fullness. That is eternal life.

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Arenera
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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To Thomas and others:

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

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Jesef
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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1) I (and I think almost everyone I know in the Church) do not rely on the Brethren for salvation - you've created another straw man there, a false position that you claim/accuse I/we have (but we don't) and then you beat it up. We treat the brethren the same way you treat Denver Snuffer, as prophets to be listened to, heeded, but not perfect in any way.

2) Section 84 does not define "fulness of the gospel" to be what you are saying it is (seeing God the Father) - it never uses the term (as it does in so many other places) - so you've created another straw man, creating your own definition of "fulness of the gospel" and then attempting to show how the Brethren either do not teach this definition or as you seem to think "deny" it. Most people probably meet The Lord at the veil of death, leaving the veil of flesh, such as Steven when he was martyred. The Temple also seems to portray this. All must pass through that veil. And then they don't stick around to be able to grandstand on how awesome they are for having met The Lord and become a truly righteous spiritual Bad-A. So full redemption may actually come to most people when they die, when they have endured to the end of this life. In other words, "enduring to the end" may, in most cases, mean the end of mortal life. You seem to have neglected this very real possibility. Go research "endure/enduring/endurance to the end" and you will see it most often means death. So how does that figure into this verse, then? "2 Nephi 31:20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." I'm not saying that these things are not possible in this life, and neither are the Brethren whose teachings you've lifted from context and misrepresented and cherry-picked, but you are asserting they are essential to happen in mortality (they are saying it may not happen here). The scriptures do not support your position, brother. You are using the exceptional cases and making them the rule, and if you fall short of the exceptional then you are doomed/damned to a lesser degree, etc.

3) You seem to have missed several key points in Section 39, which I quoted the original and bolded for you, hoping you wouldn't miss them. The Lord defined what "receiving Him" means: "he that receiveth my Gospel Receiveth me & this is my Gospel Repentance & Baptism by water & then Cometh the Baptism of fire & the Holy ghost". In other places, I've seen Remnant folks try to define "receiving the Lord" as the Second Comforter, a personal encounter with the Son (being brought back into His presence, etc.). The Lord also defines the Gospel the same as He does in 3 Nephi 27:
19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end. (in most cases, death)
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. (in most cases, death)
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;
22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day. (i.e. when you die)
And D&C 33:
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
And, how could The Lord have meant this if your definition is correct?
3 Nephi 12:
2 And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea, blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins.
So there is plenty of scriptural evidence that supports this definition of the Gospel and that such who follow this doctrine (the Doctrine of Christ) and endure to the end of their lives will be lifted up at the last day. The Church and the Brethren preach and teach and administer this doctrine as stated. Perhaps you are wrong, Thomas.

Thomas
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

Post by Thomas »

Go ahead and accept the lesser if you want. I would suggest a prayerful study of D&C 84. It is trying to teach us something. Moses was trying to prepare the people to see the face of God, while in the flesh. That is why the higher priesthood contains the power for men to see God, in the flesh and live. Since they refused, they were left with the lesser gospel. One of carnal commandments, like ours. Obviously, the brethren do not have this priesthood or they would see God. They don't even hear his voice, by their own admission.

Everyone, sinner, saint, murderer, prophet, believer or unbeliever will see God when they die. Your explanations fall short.

The scriptures plainly teach that one must know God to have eternal life. D&C 84 plainly states that those who come not unto the Father and taught by Him are under the bondage of sin.

The LDS have a gospel of someday and after we die. The scriptures teach the gospel of right now, in the flesh.

Go ahead and follow men that don't know God if you wish.

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Jesef
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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What I quoted from Jesus wasn’t lesser, Thomas, nor did He describe or classify it as such. Go ahead and misinterpret it though and say Jesus didn’t mean what he plainly said several times in several places. Have you seen and been in the presence of the Son or the Father? Have you received the Holy Ghost and been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost? Have you received the promise of eternal life from the voice of God the Father directly? Do you even know what the hell you’re talking about or is this all theoretical or hearsay?

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Mark
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Re: Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

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Jesef wrote: October 11th, 2017, 2:26 pm What I quoted from Jesus wasn’t lesser, Thomas, nor did He describe or classify it as such. Go ahead and misinterpret it though and say Jesus didn’t mean what he plainly said several times in several places. Have you seen and been in the presence of the Son or the Father? Have you received the Holy Ghost and been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost? Have you received the promise of eternal life from the voice of God the Father directly? Do you even know what the hell you’re talking about or is this all theoretical or hearsay?
I'll bet all my food storage and all my emergency savings that he hasn't on all counts. I'll even throw in my house. Just another poser..

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