Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

[underdog]

Shadow,

When you come with something that is non circular and fresh and not based on your false premise (and then reasoning backwards, as if that makes any sense), then I'll respond. Otherwise, you'll get crickets from me. It's a waste of time for you to repeat yourself, and for me to respond.

I'm looking for serious discussion and not a repeat of your traditions.

AI2 had a response that showed research and thoughtfulness, quoting references, etc. Your responses are always based in your assumptions of what is true. Opinions and assertions can't be brought forth as evidence. Need something that at least appears to be factual.

Why do you even care? You have already made your choice and a stick of dynamite wouldn't move you off your intended remnant path. Is this just a game to you to get people's blood pressure to elevate? Clearly you are not trying to decide which path to follow. It just seems so fruitless to pursue any more discussion on this topic. Nothing said here will make any difference at this point. Just move forward with your new path and live your life.

Good point, and good questions, Mark.

I am persuaded by your points.

I will cautiously move forward.

Like you, and like the good folks here, I do want to follow the Lord and I want to do that by following His commandments and repenting and getting to the point where I understand His voice.

I know I'm a good person, and because I do the things I should be doing as a good member of the Church like reading the BoM, Bible, etc., going to the Temple, magnifying my callings, being a good dad and husband, etc. I think I should expect to be led by the Spirit.

Could I be wrong about Denver? I could. I walk by faith. I do not believe I could be wrong about the BoM or Jesus Christ. I believe both to be true.

To me, Denver's teachings match up and corroborate and sustain and conform to the Scriptures. The Scriptures testify of latter-day apostasy. I wish the Church didn't have so many black eyes, but what can I say, it just keeps giving itself black eyes. I truly and fervently wish the Church would stop it.

If Denver is a Pied Piper, then I could be victim. It's true. But right now, he's leading me to wake up and look to the Lord and not man. I have stopped my preoccupation with the Brethren -- my self-confessed idolatry. They don't claim anything more than what I've received and so why should I exalt them more than any other man?

If I am to be a victim, then I wonder what the result will be? Will Denver ask us to drink poisoned Koolaid, ala Jim Jones? Surely I won't fall for that one. Could I lose money by donating to the Temple fund? If I uproot and head to Zion, that would be a sacrifice and my non member family would think I'm nuts. But they think I'm nuts anyway for having joined the LDS Church 30 years ago.

I'm not sure how I can really be hurt negatively by trying to rely more on Jesus Christ and not on man?

At the end of the day, if I understand God's will for me, then I will be safe. Isn't that all any of us can do? At the end of the day, we must be plugged into the True Vine and we must do His will.

[underdog]

Turns out that knowing the truth of anything isn't a mystery after all!!

Is it hard to know that it's daytime when the sun is up in the sky? Is it hard to know it is night time when it's pitch black? Should be a piece of cake, even "as the daylight is from the dark night"!

I say I'm 100% sure, as it's day time when the sun is out, that Denver's teachings "inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ." There is no question about it.

The real question is how do good people here on this forum assert with a straight face that his teachings "persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God"?

Which specific teachings "persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God"?

Where is the evil in persuading men and women from the church of Jesus Christ?
-Baptism with authority
-The gift of the Holy Ghost
-Temple covenants
- Sealing power to bind families
- Living Prophets


All of these things combined with our faithfulness work together with the gospel for our salvation. Of course you being a member already know this so why would Heavenly Father let us have so much back and forth with something this important? I don't believe he does. So why the struggle to know? This exchange from War and Peace about knowing God between a man (Pierre) who meets a Mason and changes his life may have some principles that may be the reason some do not know and struggle to know.

He paused and sighed, evidently trying to calm himself.

"If He were not," he said quietly, "you and I would not be speaking of Him, my dear sir. Of what, of whom, are we speaking? Whom hast thou denied?" he suddenly asked with exulting austerity and authority in his voice. "Who invented Him, if He did not exist? Whence came thy conception of the existence of such an incomprehensible Being? didst thou, and why did the whole world, conceive the idea of the existence of such an incomprehensible Being, a Being all-powerful, eternal, and infinite in all His attributes?..."

He stopped and remained silent for a long time.

Pierre could not and did not wish to break this silence.

"He exists, but to understand Him is hard," the Mason began again, looking not at Pierre but straight before him, and turning the leaves of his book with his old hands which from excitement he could not keep still. "If it were a man whose existence thou didst doubt I could bring him to thee, could take him by the hand and show him to thee. But how can I, an insignificant mortal, show His omnipotence, His infinity, and all His mercy to one who is blind, or who shuts his eyes that he may not see or understand Him and may not see or understand his own vileness and sinfulness?" He paused again. "Who art thou? Thou dreamest that thou art wise because thou couldst utter those blasphemous words," he went on, with a somber and scornful smile. "And thou art more foolish and unreasonable than a little child, who, playing with the parts of a skillfully made watch, dares to say that, as he does not understand its use, he does not believe in the master who made it. To know Him is hard.... For ages, from our forefather Adam to our own day, we labor to attain that knowledge and are still infinitely far from our aim; but in our lack of understanding we see only our weakness and His greatness...."

Pierre listened with swelling heart, gazing into the Mason's face with shining eyes, not interrupting or questioning him, but believing with his whole soul what the stranger said. Whether he accepted the wise reasoning contained in the Mason's words, or believed as a child believes, in the speaker's tone of conviction and earnestness, or the tremor of the speaker's voice—which sometimes almost broke—or those brilliant aged eyes grown old in this conviction, or the calm firmness and certainty of his vocation, which radiated from his whole being (and which struck Pierre especially by contrast with his own dejection and hopelessness)—at any rate, Pierre longed with his whole soul to believe and he did believe, and felt a joyful sense of comfort, regeneration, and return to life.

"He is not to be apprehended by reason, but by life," said the Mason.

"I do not understand," said Pierre, feeling with dismay doubts reawakening. He was afraid of any want of clearness, any weakness, in the Mason's arguments; he dreaded not to be able to believe in him. "I don't understand," he said, "how it is that the mind of man cannot attain the knowledge of which you speak."

The Mason smiled with his gentle fatherly smile.

"The highest wisdom and truth are like the purest liquid we may wish to imbibe," he said. "Can I receive that pure liquid into an impure vessel and judge of its purity? Only by the inner purification of myself can I retain in some degree of purity the liquid I receive."

"Yes, yes, that is so," said Pierre joyfully.

"The highest wisdom is not founded on reason alone, not on those worldly sciences of physics, history, chemistry, and the like, into which intellectual knowledge is divided. The highest wisdom is one. The highest wisdom has but one science—the science of the whole—the science explaining the whole creation and man's place in it. To receive that science it is necessary to purify and renew one's inner self, and so before one can know, it is necessary to believe and to perfect one's self. And to attain this end, we have the light called conscience that God has implanted in our souls."

Thank you, Dr. Tanner, for your most thoughtful and elegant response.

Your lesson learned from that book reminds me of:

Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.
Alma 60:23

You ask this: "Why would Heavenly Father let us have so much back and forth with something this important?"

Do you think your sentiment was expressed in the premortal world when Heavenly Father's plan and Lucifer's plan were debated openly?

Perhaps many people in the ranks of the third of the hosts of heaven wondered similarly? Perhaps many who ended up keeping their first estate marveled at Heavenly Father allowing such back and forth?

Maybe many wished He would just "let us know so we wouldn't have to doubt what to do"?

Jesef is the voice for these people. "Just manifest Thy power in the manner I expect so I will know the truth, Father in Heaven! "

It is clearer now to me that there is a very strong undercurrent in the Church having these characteristics:

1) We want to be instructed clearly what to do so as to minimize risk of choosing the wrong.
2) We can't accept if the correct path is not manifested by God according to what WE feel is a proper divine manifestation.
3) We are sincerely perplexed that God honors the free will of all sides so that genuine confusion is allowed to remain among His children.

In other words, summing all three up, there is a strong undercurrent (instilled over many decades) where we WANT to outsource the responsibility rightfully devolving upon ourselves to our leaders.

Having Brethren to lead and guide us fulfills all 3 in that we can know clearly the path (because my leader says so), not worry about hearing God's voice for ourselves (because I can hear my leader's voice), and our perplexity at God not intervening is completely removed because our leader explains everything.

When all along, the answers to our questions are available in the Scriptures, through which God speaks to us. It truly is an "open book test." We don't need to look to see what another fellow test-taker (the Brethren) says; all we have to do is consult the Scriptures.

I can see the Lord telling us face to face some day: "I know you THOUGHT your tradition or certain belief was true, but did that tradition / belief conform to Scripture? "

For example, "the Lord will not permit the president to lead the church astray. " The Lord may ask us, "Where did you ever get the notion that I would control or force any man to do my will? Any leader or any man or group of men are free to choose. If you want to believe you're safe and secure in your salvation by following them, then that is your right! I will always honor what you want. Did I not say you were gods, agents who can create, who can choose your destiny? You are free to choose."

That's right there is a difference between knowing and believing (acting / using agency to obey what you know) "If any man will do his will he shall know of the doctrine." If you "believed" in the church whole heartedly what would you be doing different in your life? What is keeping you from doing those things?

Dr. Tanner,

Thanks.

I love John 17:7. Probably my favorite verse. I've lived by and patterned my life around that verse.

If I believed in the Church NOW whole heartedly, what would I be doing differently now? I wouldn't be looking into the mysteries of Godliness. I wouldn't be questioning the rampant unrighteous dominion in the Church. I wouldn't be looking outside the mainstream orthodoxy for answers to my questions. I wouldn't be sad that I live in an empire of lies. I wouldn't be thinking about Zion. I wouldn't be as excited and energized about the Gospel as I am now.

[Arenera]

If I believed in the Church NOW whole heartedly, what would I be doing differently now? I wouldn't be looking into the mysteries of Godliness. I wouldn't be questioning the rampant unrighteous dominion in the Church. I wouldn't be looking outside the mainstream orthodoxy for answers to my questions. I wouldn't be sad that I live in an empire of lies. I wouldn't be thinking about Zion. I wouldn't be as excited and energized about the Gospel as I am now.

You are practicing unrighteous dominion now by your fighting against the Church. You have no priesthood. You are putting yourself, your family, and your posterity in danger.

[Seek the Truth]

Not sure what you're saying.

You know exactly what we are saying.

[Seek the Truth]

and that we should reject the philosophies of men mingled with Scripture.

This is why we reject Denver. He mixes his philosophies with scripture.

[Jesef]

The best way to put out a fire is to deprive it of oxygen. Farewell. Peace & God bless.

[Seek the Truth]

To me, Denver's teachings match up and corroborate and sustain and conform to the Scriptures.

No they don't, he teaches against keys, authority, and men called of God/the structure of the Church. Article of Faith #6. He rejects those scriptures.

The Scriptures testify of latter-day apostasy.

Yes, of people like you. The scriptures testify the LDS Church is the Kingdom of God in the last days and will remain intact until the Millenium (see my sig and many other statements on the subject). A bunch of people are going to leave though.

If I am to be a victim, then I wonder what the result will be? Will Denver ask us to drink poisoned Koolaid, ala Jim Jones? Surely I won't fall for that one. Could I lose money by donating to the Temple fund? If I uproot and head to Zion, that would be a sacrifice and my non member family would think I'm nuts. But they think I'm nuts anyway for having joined the LDS Church 30 years ago.

You''ll lose any chance of Exaltation.

[underdog]

The best way to put out a fire is to deprive it of oxygen. Farewell. Peace & God bless.

Thanks, Jesef.

I'm taking your advice and doing that to Seek the Truth by ignoring him. Let's see if it works.

It has been a pleasure to hear your thoughts. I thank you.

[cestlavive]

I was driving down the road the other day listening to a song on my phone. It took me back in my memory to a night in Moab over a year ago where about 30--40 of us ...maybe more...were in a living room at one of our friends houses having sacrament. Before the meeting I was out in my car in a lot of pain. I told the person I was with that I wouldn't be coming in, that I needed to just sit in the car and deal with the pain of stomach ulcer. It was going from a 7--9 in pain(i know pain, I've had natural child birth). I didn't want to be social. After a few minutes sitting there two women who I am friends with and the owner of the home came out and asked what they could do to assist me. I told them nothing would help, I've tried everything. The owner of the home offered me she and her husbands bed to go lay on and rest. It was hard to accept, but I did. I went in and laid down and shut the door. While in there alone I felt A heavenly presence come in the room. Such a familiar, soft, loving and warm presence. There were people praying for me outside the room. I felt and heard the spirit teach me a beautiful lesson there in that room. A moment later my 8 scale pain that I had been dealing with for months that was escalating was GONE. I went down to where everything was being prepared for sacrament in the living room. It was dimly lit in the room. Packed. We broke bread. We prayed spontaneously as we are led to. Many of us stood in a circle and started to sing this song acapela. As the evening went on, I remember looking up while everyone stood doing their own things, in their own world with Jesus, singing praises to Him and loving him and loving each other. It was the most beautiful experience. I closed my eyes and Christ gave me a word. Jesus. He gave ME a word. He talked to ME. I was so shocked and humbled that Jesus would talk to me, but at the same time the presence was that of my oldest most dear friend, someone special that I've always known and loved. That word has grown and grown since that night and put me in such a fantastic journey of learning to like and then love myself (still working on that). Anyhow, as I was in my car the other day and this song brought that night back into my rememberence, I was profoundly happy and sad. I came to the realization that I would have taken one of the movement sacrament meetings over 3000 LDS sacrament meetings. While LDS sacrament was great, tears were shed, a spirit was felt (I was a Latter Day Saint that didn't even miss sacrament when i had strep throat, flu, etc.) it couldn't hold a candle to what has spontaneously erupted from the movement. Many of those in the movement have "left" the church. It's not Denvers movement. It is a movement that has been started and led by individuals following the Lord to the best of their abilities. If there are those in the movement that believe that Denver is the head honcho, then you probably didn't listen to his lectures very closely where he asked that we not even mention his name to anyone ever again. Because t isn't about Denver, it's about Christ and His restoration. These lectures were the Lords message, not a mans message. Some of my friends have had the self control to actually listen to Denver and never mention his name after the lectures and not keep up with his blog, conferences, etc. Wish I could say the same! Hehe. If there are those who are in idolatry of Denver or other "leaders" in the movement, then the point of the movement has escaped them. This is about an individual and Christ. I say it's a good thing Denver's making mistakes! He told us he WOULD make mistakes. It's helping people wake up and stop slipping back into man worship that is so easily slipped into from years and decades in the LDS church. I remember walking in the mountains to set out sacrament with one of my girl friends in 3-4 feet of snow. It was lovely. So beautiful. A HUGE bald eagle flew just over our heads as we were blessing the sacrament. So many of these sacraments are burned into my memory and changed my life to be closer to the Lord than anything else I've experienced. The same spirit I have when I read portions of the Bible, NT, and Book of Mormon was the same spirit of these meetings. It was real. No room for agendas or deceit, just truth. I'm finding Denvers not completely acting in truth right now, but I kind of expected it. He's a man. He's faliable. He can impart a message from the Lord but this isn't LDS 2.0 where Denver "Will never lead us astray".... HAHAHHA
That's not even in the books.....well.....maybe for some it is, which is sad, but whatever. As far as I can see, Denver woke a lot to what Joseph was trying to awake the early saints to, and that is bringing forth good fruits. But we are dealing with humans, and humans are messy messy creatures. In life, I want the truth. I don't want to give to a man the responsibility that devolves upon me. Whether that be the Heads of the LDS Church or Denver or whoever. Nobody has that right to step in between God and I. In life, I look at fruits. I look at the way we TREAT one another. Fruits of a Christ like individual. I was in another country last year having dinner with a friend and a church man of some evangelical church. When I saw the terrible terrible rude way this supposedly "Godly" church man treated the female server at this restaurant, the rest of the evening spent at his church was meaningless even though he had some pretty awesome prayers to pray over my friend and I and prophesied some pretty amazing things...he even demonstrated some pretty fantastic things....but because of the fruits of how he treated the server, everything else was water on wax for me. Meaningless. Cool, but never had the desire to meet with him again because of fruits.

Well, the way to Christ is narrow, and, like Hugh Nibley says, we better get down in the dust and realize how much nothingness we truly are. All of us. Maybe this way (leaving the church and starting to have church in your own homes or out in nature) isn't for everyone, and that's ok. The frustration with Denver is very palpable in this thread, but some people will find great spiritual guidance and goodness in this path of the basic message of the movement is stuck with. I know I have. I had to leave the mainstream LDS church and mainstream movement, and I still love my brothers and sisters In the church and in the movement and everywhere. Even though this path is not so clear cut and regimented like we were used to in the LDS church, it's been really good for me, and continues to be. I don't know if a lot of people know this on this thread, (or if you even care, haha!) but many in the movement don't agree with the temple fund and Denvers direction of late and the covenant and scripture project, etc. There are a lot that have returned to just following the Lord's direction and leaving the fluff behind. Whatever. To each their own! I'm still friends and close to those who took the covenant and those who didn't. And it's great! I hope we can all continue to meet together and live peaceably and lovingly with one another.

[AI2.0]

Shadow,

When you come with something that is non circular and fresh and not based on your false premise (and then reasoning backwards, as if that makes any sense), then I'll respond. Otherwise, you'll get crickets from me. It's a waste of time for you to repeat yourself, and for me to respond.

I'm looking for serious discussion and not a repeat of your traditions.

AI2 had a response that showed research and thoughtfulness, quoting references, etc. Your responses are always based in your assumptions of what is true. Opinions and assertions can't be brought forth as evidence. Need something that at least appears to be factual.

You don't have to respond if you don't want to, intellectually you offer nothing anyway. You can't respond to Snuffer's claim of wresting the keys because it's contrary to the revelations from the Lord to Joseph Smith. You can't respond because Joseph Smith said those who refuse to attend their court deserve to be excommunicated on that point alone. Putting 2+2 together for you- Because Snuffer didn't attend his court, the appeal to the first presidency SHOULD be responded to only as validating the excommunication- that's what Joseph taught. Snuffer gave them no choice. Granted, even if he attended his court the result should've been excommunication simply by way of the false doctrine Snuffer was teaching. Believing false doctrine is one thing and can be dealt with in various ways including not dealing with it at all, but once a following occurs and the false doctrine continues to be taught, excommunication is the correct answer. This is backed by revelation to Joseph Smith and it's backed by scripture found in the Book of Mormon.

So sure, if by circular you mean I keep bringing up the same points that you gloss over then I'm guilty. If you don't want to respond to it then don't, but most likely I'll keep bringing it up.

You're right, attending his court would not have made a difference because the time for changes was past. He'd met with his stake pres. who had told him he needed to pull his book and not give his lectures, etc. and he refused. That's why they had no choice but to excommunicate him. He'd made none of the changes needed to show that he acknowledged the false teachings and was repentant and wanted to make things right. Neither Snuffer nor his followers can deny that he was given the option to comply. He refused.

And I pointed out some of the false doctrines that were in his book. He was preaching a false requirement of a theophany for entrance into the celestial kingdom which was not in harmony with LDS teachings. He was claiming that the church had been rejected in 1841 and that the church no longer had spiritual manifestations and our leaders did not have them either. He also claimed that ordinances were not necessary, the church was not necessary and prophets are the 'arm of flesh' that if you follow, you go to the telestial kingdom. These are all teachings which are not in harmony with LDS doctrine.

[AI2.0]

Shadow,

When you come with something that is non circular and fresh and not based on your false premise (and then reasoning backwards, as if that makes any sense), then I'll respond. Otherwise, you'll get crickets from me. It's a waste of time for you to repeat yourself, and for me to respond.

I'm looking for serious discussion and not a repeat of your traditions.

AI2 had a response that showed research and thoughtfulness, quoting references, etc. Your responses are always based in your assumptions of what is true. Opinions and assertions can't be brought forth as evidence. Need something that at least appears to be factual.

Why do you even care? You have already made your choice and a stick of dynamite wouldn't move you off your intended remnant path. Is this just a game to you to get people's blood pressure to elevate? Clearly you are not trying to decide which path to follow. It just seems so fruitless to pursue any more discussion on this topic. Nothing said here will make any difference at this point. Just move forward with your new path and live your life.

Good point, and good questions, Mark.

I am persuaded by your points.

I will cautiously move forward.

Like you, and like the good folks here, I do want to follow the Lord and I want to do that by following His commandments and repenting and getting to the point where I understand His voice.

I know I'm a good person, and because I do the things I should be doing as a good member of the Church like reading the BoM, Bible, etc., going to the Temple, magnifying my callings, being a good dad and husband, etc. I think I should expect to be led by the Spirit.

Could I be wrong about Denver? I could. I walk by faith. I do not believe I could be wrong about the BoM or Jesus Christ. I believe both to be true.

To me, Denver's teachings match up and corroborate and sustain and conform to the Scriptures. The Scriptures testify of latter-day apostasy. I wish the Church didn't have so many black eyes, but what can I say, it just keeps giving itself black eyes. I truly and fervently wish the Church would stop it.

If Denver is a Pied Piper, then I could be victim. It's true. But right now, he's leading me to wake up and look to the Lord and not man. I have stopped my preoccupation with the Brethren -- my self-confessed idolatry. They don't claim anything more than what I've received and so why should I exalt them more than any other man?

If I am to be a victim, then I wonder what the result will be? Will Denver ask us to drink poisoned Koolaid, ala Jim Jones? Surely I won't fall for that one. Could I lose money by donating to the Temple fund? If I uproot and head to Zion, that would be a sacrifice and my non member family would think I'm nuts. But they think I'm nuts anyway for having joined the LDS Church 30 years ago.

I'm not sure how I can really be hurt negatively by trying to rely more on Jesus Christ and not on man?

At the end of the day, if I understand God's will for me, then I will be safe. Isn't that all any of us can do? At the end of the day, we must be plugged into the True Vine and we must do His will.

How can you be hurt negatively? By leaving the Lord's true church and abandoning your real, valid ordinances for a sham offered by a charlatan. That's how you can be hurt. And your family can be hurt by it too, because they will be affected by your choices.

And something else to consider which might help you determine truth. Do you know where Joseph Smith said that Zion, the New Jerusalem would be built? Jackson Country Missouri--it's in your scriptures unless the Scripture committee has removed those sections. So, if Denver Snuffer tries to get you to accept any other place as 'Zion' and wants you all to move there, then please recognize that he's breaking with Joseph Smith jr. and you should be very wary of his 'revelations' and not follow him to any supposed 'Zion' community.

[AI2.0]

I was driving down the road the other day listening to a song on my phone. It took me back in my memory to a night in Moab over a year ago where about 30--40 of us ...maybe more...were in a living room at one of our friends houses having sacrament. Before the meeting I was out in my car in a lot of pain. I told the person I was with that I wouldn't be coming in, that I needed to just sit in the car and deal with the pain of stomach ulcer. It was going from a 7--9 in pain(i know pain, I've had natural child birth). I didn't want to be social. After a few minutes sitting there two women who I am friends with and the owner of the home came out and asked what they could do to assist me. I told them nothing would help, I've tried everything. The owner of the home offered me she and her husbands bed to go lay on and rest. It was hard to accept, but I did. I went in and laid down and shut the door. While in there alone I felt A heavenly presence come in the room. Such a familiar, soft, loving and warm presence. There were people praying for me outside the room. I felt and heard the spirit teach me a beautiful lesson there in that room. A moment later my 8 scale pain that I had been dealing with for months that was escalating was GONE. I went down to where everything was being prepared for sacrament in the living room. It was dimly lit in the room. Packed. We broke bread. We prayed spontaneously as we are led to. Many of us stood in a circle and started to sing this song acapela. As the evening went on, I remember looking up while everyone stood doing their own things, in their own world with Jesus, singing praises to Him and loving him and loving each other. It was the most beautiful experience. I closed my eyes and Christ gave me a word. Jesus. He gave ME a word. He talked to ME. I was so shocked and humbled that Jesus would talk to me, but at the same time the presence was that of my oldest most dear friend, someone special that I've always known and loved. That word has grown and grown since that night and put me in such a fantastic journey of learning to like and then love myself (still working on that). Anyhow, as I was in my car the other day and this song brought that night back into my rememberence, I was profoundly happy and sad. I came to the realization that I would have taken one of the movement sacrament meetings over 3000 LDS sacrament meetings. While LDS sacrament was great, tears were shed, a spirit was felt (I was a Latter Day Saint that didn't even miss sacrament when i had strep throat, flu, etc.) it couldn't hold a candle to what has spontaneously erupted from the movement. Many of those in the movement have "left" the church. It's not Denvers movement. It is a movement that has been started and led by individuals following the Lord to the best of their abilities. If there are those in the movement that believe that Denver is the head honcho, then you probably didn't listen to his lectures very closely where he asked that we not even mention his name to anyone ever again. Because t isn't about Denver, it's about Christ and His restoration. These lectures were the Lords message, not a mans message. Some of my friends have had the self control to actually listen to Denver and never mention his name after the lectures and not keep up with his blog, conferences, etc. Wish I could say the same! Hehe. If there are those who are in idolatry of Denver or other "leaders" in the movement, then the point of the movement has escaped them. This is about an individual and Christ. I say it's a good thing Denver's making mistakes! He told us he WOULD make mistakes. It's helping people wake up and stop slipping back into man worship that is so easily slipped into from years and decades in the LDS church. I remember walking in the mountains to set out sacrament with one of my girl friends in 3-4 feet of snow. It was lovely. So beautiful. A HUGE bald eagle flew just over our heads as we were blessing the sacrament. So many of these sacraments are burned into my memory and changed my life to be closer to the Lord than anything else I've experienced. The same spirit I have when I read portions of the Bible, NT, and Book of Mormon was the same spirit of these meetings. It was real. No room for agendas or deceit, just truth. I'm finding Denvers not completely acting in truth right now, but I kind of expected it. He's a man. He's faliable. He can impart a message from the Lord but this isn't LDS 2.0 where Denver "Will never lead us astray".... HAHAHHA
That's not even in the books.....well.....maybe for some it is, which is sad, but whatever. As far as I can see, Denver woke a lot to what Joseph was trying to awake the early saints to, and that is bringing forth good fruits. But we are dealing with humans, and humans are messy messy creatures. In life, I want the truth. I don't want to give to a man the responsibility that devolves upon me. Whether that be the Heads of the LDS Church or Denver or whoever. Nobody has that right to step in between God and I. In life, I look at fruits. I look at the way we TREAT one another. Fruits of a Christ like individual. I was in another country last year having dinner with a friend and a church man of some evangelical church. When I saw the terrible terrible rude way this supposedly "Godly" church man treated the female server at this restaurant, the rest of the evening spent at his church was meaningless even though he had some pretty awesome prayers to pray over my friend and I and prophesied some pretty amazing things...he even demonstrated some pretty fantastic things....but because of the fruits of how he treated the server, everything else was water on wax for me. Meaningless. Cool, but never had the desire to meet with him again because of fruits.

Well, the way to Christ is narrow, and, like Hugh Nibley says, we better get down in the dust and realize how much nothingness we truly are. All of us. Maybe this way (leaving the church and starting to have church in your own homes or out in nature) isn't for everyone, and that's ok. The frustration with Denver is very palpable in this thread, but some people will find great spiritual guidance and goodness in this path of the basic message of the movement is stuck with. I know I have. I had to leave the mainstream LDS church and mainstream movement, and I still love my brothers and sisters In the church and in the movement and everywhere. Even though this path is not so clear cut and regimented like we were used to in the LDS church, it's been really good for me, and continues to be. I don't know if a lot of people know this on this thread, (or if you even care, haha!) but many in the movement don't agree with the temple fund and Denvers direction of late and the covenant and scripture project, etc. There are a lot that have returned to just following the Lord's direction and leaving the fluff behind. Whatever. To each their own! I'm still friends and close to those who took the covenant and those who didn't. And it's great! I hope we can all continue to meet together and live peaceably and lovingly with one another.

I appreciate you sharing your heartfelt thoughts on this. I'm certain that you are sincere. So, I hope you can realize that I am being absolutely sincere in my response.

This is how I view many in this movement. They were active LDS who attended church, served callings, paid tithing, attended the temple, and thought they were living the gospel. But, they weren't really spiritually engaged, for various reasons. They were bored at church, they got little satisfaction from serving others in their callings, they participated in a rote manner, very likely were disengaged from spiritual manifestations in their daily lives, I don't know, maybe they'd become lax in prayer, scripture reading or were once again, doing it in a rote manner, not engaged, distant. Maybe their lives were in a jumble, struggling with telestial relationships and telestial interactions and looking for something outside themselves to blame this on. Likely, they were bothered by the human frailties and problems of the members around them and maybe even had problems with their local church leaders, they let these feelings fester and harden. Their own disengagement clouded their judgment and strengthened their doubts, the little niggling things that bothered them, possibly in church history or in the way things are done, the conformity issues that many chafe at. Sadly, it made them vulnerable to the whisperings of the adversary as he also validated their complaints and frustrations. They turn inward and the adversary continues to feed their criticisms, making them more hardened to being able to feel charity, love and forgiveness which are vital in our church. Then Snuffer comes along and tells them that they don't need these people, they don't need to serve them in burdensome callings, or give up their hard earned money to pay tithing, and they can drink wine, coffee, tea, whatever. They don't have to worry about what anyone else tells them, because all they have to do is 'listen' for the voices in their own mind (which he said was the Holy Ghost) to validate their beliefs and feelings. He also made it exciting because he put such emphasis on spiritual manifestations and he and others continued the myth that no one in the LDS church is having manifestations--(which is false by the way) and that if they spent time with other 'like=minded' people, they'd be able to have these.

So, the way I see it, Remnant movement people had a lot of complaints and criticisms and feelings that their former religion just wasn't cutting it for them and Snuffer validated their feelings, gave them explanations for why that was so, told them things that were not true (but offered validation in the way he reinterpreted scriptures and rewrote history) and it was easy to follow him out of a church which truly required sacrifice, enduring to the end and self-less service, to a church that is easier because it requires so much less. It's all on the individual for what they want to believe, how much effort they want to put into it. No judgment, no requirements, no listening to others and having to live to a certain standard of righteousness. And when you feel validated because you believe the angels are validating your choices with manifestations, it's easy to think you've made the right choice. But when you know that Satan can appear as an angel of light, when you know he can mimic the gifts of the spirit, then you know these things can be imitated and used to deceive. We've been warned of it in our scriptures (unless Remnant has removed those scriptural warnings too).

But this I know because we've were warned. We were specifically warned of 'false prohets, false christs and false teachers' which would arise in the last days. We were told that we would be able to identify them 'by their fruits'. So far, that has been true--if you look at these false prophets, their bitter fruits will eventually be known. Denver Snuffer's movement is young, but already there are red flags. He's moving away from his initial teachings and evolving his movement into a church. He's moving from his initial teaching of going directly to God and instead is putting himself in as a prophet who reveals God's will to his people. The problem is that what he once rejected, he now teaches--with him as the prophet. He claims to only teach what Joseph taught, but that is not true--example--the seven women to sustain one man. Fellowships are not something Joseph taught. The Lord will not let you fall into apostasy without warning you and the warning signs are all there, but it takes humility and a broken and contrite heart to see them.

It will take humility, prayer, a broken heart and contrite spirit on the part of individuals to recognize truth and hopefully some will see it and help others within the group to see it as well. That is my prayer for the Remnant followers.

[underdog]

Shadow,

When you come with something that is non circular and fresh and not based on your false premise (and then reasoning backwards, as if that makes any sense), then I'll respond. Otherwise, you'll get crickets from me. It's a waste of time for you to repeat yourself, and for me to respond.

I'm looking for serious discussion and not a repeat of your traditions.

AI2 had a response that showed research and thoughtfulness, quoting references, etc. Your responses are always based in your assumptions of what is true. Opinions and assertions can't be brought forth as evidence. Need something that at least appears to be factual.

Why do you even care? You have already made your choice and a stick of dynamite wouldn't move you off your intended remnant path. Is this just a game to you to get people's blood pressure to elevate? Clearly you are not trying to decide which path to follow. It just seems so fruitless to pursue any more discussion on this topic. Nothing said here will make any difference at this point. Just move forward with your new path and live your life.

Good point, and good questions, Mark.

I am persuaded by your points.

I will cautiously move forward.

Like you, and like the good folks here, I do want to follow the Lord and I want to do that by following His commandments and repenting and getting to the point where I understand His voice.

I know I'm a good person, and because I do the things I should be doing as a good member of the Church like reading the BoM, Bible, etc., going to the Temple, magnifying my callings, being a good dad and husband, etc. I think I should expect to be led by the Spirit.

Could I be wrong about Denver? I could. I walk by faith. I do not believe I could be wrong about the BoM or Jesus Christ. I believe both to be true.

To me, Denver's teachings match up and corroborate and sustain and conform to the Scriptures. The Scriptures testify of latter-day apostasy. I wish the Church didn't have so many black eyes, but what can I say, it just keeps giving itself black eyes. I truly and fervently wish the Church would stop it.

If Denver is a Pied Piper, then I could be victim. It's true. But right now, he's leading me to wake up and look to the Lord and not man. I have stopped my preoccupation with the Brethren -- my self-confessed idolatry. They don't claim anything more than what I've received and so why should I exalt them more than any other man?

If I am to be a victim, then I wonder what the result will be? Will Denver ask us to drink poisoned Koolaid, ala Jim Jones? Surely I won't fall for that one. Could I lose money by donating to the Temple fund? If I uproot and head to Zion, that would be a sacrifice and my non member family would think I'm nuts. But they think I'm nuts anyway for having joined the LDS Church 30 years ago.

I'm not sure how I can really be hurt negatively by trying to rely more on Jesus Christ and not on man?

At the end of the day, if I understand God's will for me, then I will be safe. Isn't that all any of us can do? At the end of the day, we must be plugged into the True Vine and we must do His will.

How can you be hurt negatively? By leaving the Lord's true church and abandoning your real, valid ordinances for a sham offered by a charlatan. That's how you can be hurt. And your family can be hurt by it too, because they will be affected by your choices.

And something else to consider which might help you determine truth. Do you know where Joseph Smith said that Zion, the New Jerusalem would be built? Jackson Country Missouri--it's in your scriptures unless the Scripture committee has removed those sections. So, if Denver Snuffer tries to get you to accept any other place as 'Zion' and wants you all to move there, then please recognize that he's breaking with Joseph Smith jr. and you should be very wary of his 'revelations' and not follow him to any supposed 'Zion' community.

And Kirtland and Nauvoo. 3 whiffs. LocatLocation not nearly as important as a repentant people.

I really like your comments. The love gets through.

Thank you.

Do you mind if I ask, are you a Brother or Sister? I assume Sister. What's your story? Convert? Grow up in the Church? Conversion story? Why do you believe?

[AI2.0]

And Kirtland and Nauvoo. 3 whiffs. LocatLocation not nearly as important as a repentant people.

I really like your comments. The love gets through.

Thank you.

Do you mind if I ask, are you a Brother or Sister? I assume Sister. What's your story? Convert? Grow up in the Church? Conversion story? Why do you believe?

In this instance, I'm not talking about places that could be considered 'zion', I'm referring to THE place that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith jr. the place that he 'appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints'. In D&C 57:1-3 he named Independence Missouri, saying; ...'wherefore this is the land of promise, and for the place for the city of zion...'

You are correct, I am a sister. I'm born and raised in the church, I've got strong LDS roots on both sides of my family; I'm a descendant of Hyrum Smith (there are a few of us on the forum). I had my own struggles when I was much younger--but they made me stronger because I decided that if I was going to remain in the church I needed to be 'all in' and needed to know it was true. Through studying, reading the scriptures, prayer, studying other resources and living the commandments, repenting and making changes, coming to know my Savior, I gained a witness and a firm testimony of the Gospel. I began studying gospel doctrine and church history when I was in my teens, but I also read the challenges put forward by church critics. Learning about the church and the doctrines is a hobby I've enjoyed my whole life. I taught Gospel Doctrine for a total of nine years and in addition to secular studies, I taught Book of Mormon and Bible classes at a private LDS school for a few years. I live in the Salt Lake area though I was raised in California, and am presently serving as a Ward Missionary.

What about you? I believe you said you are a convert and served a mission. Did you only start to have doubts about the church when you were introduced to Snuffer's writings, or was this earlier?

[Silver Pie]

Please tell me where he's not stepping easily into the role of Prophet, Seer and Revelator

It's obvious that he has stepped into that role.

As to the other things you've said, I view it a bit differently. From the beginning, the Lord has been trying to set up a Zion; a place where people can go and be safe if they don't want to join in with the killing that is going to be happening en masse in this country as it disappears (in the same manner that the Jaredites and Nephites disappeared).

I accepted the covenant because I recognized the Lord's voice in it, not because of Denver (the covenant includes knowing that the words are the Lord's). If there comes a point when I cease to recognize my Lord in the majority of what is said, then I will cease to believe DS's words that don't align with what my soul recognizes.

I also don't view Adrian and Keith as his counselors. When my little fellowship meets, we don't consult a manual. We don't consult Adrian and/or Keith's sermons. We conduct our meetings as we feel led by the Spirit. When my online fellowship gets together, we do whatever we please, unfettered by any man's ideas. Also, since you've kept abreast of this movement, you have to notice that the speakers at the general conferences (not General Conference, but conferences in which the general whole of the movement is invited) "nobodies" speak. Denver has spoken at all of them, so far, but Keith and Adrian are not regular speakers. I've only heard Keith speak once: as a witness to what DS said, and at the end of the tenth lecture. I don't know that Adrian has spoken, other than to introduce speakers at one of the Boise conferences. (I don't think I'd even recognize either man if I ran into them; that's how well known and "important" they are.)

There are no official magazines. No lesson manuals. No secret handbook that only the duly called and appointed leaders are privy to. There is no money going to any of the three men. None of them have their name on any legal papers. Heck, the church is an idea, not a legally organized entity. No one calls any man or woman to any position. The priesthood doesn't even have offices in it. It is "the priesthood" and that's it.

A point by point comparison with the details of the LDS religion (or any organized religion with church buildings and a leader) would show a lot of serious differences, as well as some surface similarities. I've talked to Denver. He is unassuming, meek. He had no desire to pontificate, no desire to capture my attention, no desire to tell me how wonderful he was. In fact, when a friend captured my attention a minute or two into the conversation, he didn't care at all. Nothing about him was grandiose or craving attention.

[Silver Pie]

Lol. The technical details are what does him in. The Kingdom set up by Joseph will not fail, by Joseph's own words. To accept Snuffer is to reject Joseph Smith.

Lol.

To accept Brigham is to reject Joseph, agreed?

(nod) They taught opposing things, from ordination of black men to how many wives one should have and have children with.

[Silver Pie]

Your responses are so vapid that I honestly can't bear to read any more. I want to eat but after reading I'm still hungry. Your disrespect really comes through though so you're accomplishing something. I'll try to refrain from any bait you put out.

I am reminded of the lecture in Ephraim (7th?). Lemuel was there. On his name tag, he had written Seek the Truth. I did a double-take because I knew that Seek the Truth wouldn't be caught dead there.

[Silver Pie]

And so, in 2017, Remnant people who rejected Pres. Monson and the 12 have replaced them with Denver Snuffer and his de facto counselors, Adrian Larson and Keith Hendersen.

(neither has spoken in a General Conference, . . .

I was quite sure of this, also.

[Silver Pie]

It is so difficult to correctly communicate our thoughts. Let me leave this in closing: perhaps we can agree on this difference, that Latter-Day Saints acknowledge the status of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator as coincident with an office (First Presidency and Twelve) and that it is usually conferred instantaneously upon sustaining and setting apart. Within the remnant, we avoid granting any offices or titles (including P,S,R) and instead end up acknowledging a person or people who (at least in our own estimation) provide prophecy, seership, and revelation after them having done so repeatedly and after many years of doing so.

I think this is the biggest difference: the meaning of the word "prophet" in people's minds. We think DS as a messenger from God, i.e. "prophet". LDS prophets, however, are leaders, are the bosses, receive deference and special treatment. They assign who teaches/rules. They drive nice cars, wear expensive suits (so I've heard, I wouldn't know a thousand dollar suit from a $2.50 D.I. special), receive a modest stipend/living allowance. They preach to pay them (the Church) before you pay your bills; in fact, to pay them instead of your bills or groceries if you can't afford both. Denver preaches no such thing. He is not the boss, to be obeyed without question (and if you don't sustain him as president, prophet, seer, and revelator, you are kicked out). He receives no money for what he does. He preaches that tithing is 10% of what you have left over after you've taken care of your expenses (10% of excess), and that it should only go to the poor. He preaches that if a man is a servant of God, he should be a real servant, sacrificing, losing money, in the service of his fellowman. I could go on, but I'm done. I'm sure I've preached shocking heresy to the max, already in my posts.

[Arenera]

It is so difficult to correctly communicate our thoughts. Let me leave this in closing: perhaps we can agree on this difference, that Latter-Day Saints acknowledge the status of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator as coincident with an office (First Presidency and Twelve) and that it is usually conferred instantaneously upon sustaining and setting apart. Within the remnant, we avoid granting any offices or titles (including P,S,R) and instead end up acknowledging a person or people who (at least in our own estimation) provide prophecy, seership, and revelation after them having done so repeatedly and after many years of doing so.

I think this is the biggest difference: the meaning of the word "prophet" in people's minds. We think DS as a messenger from God, i.e. "prophet". LDS prophets, however, are leaders, are the bosses, receive deference and special treatment. They assign who teaches/rules. They drive nice cars, wear expensive suits (so I've heard, I wouldn't know a thousand dollar suit from a $2.50 D.I. special), receive a modest stipend/living allowance. They preach to pay them (the Church) before you pay your bills; in fact, to pay them instead of your bills or groceries if you can't afford both. Denver preaches no such thing. He is not the boss, to be obeyed without question (and if you don't sustain him as president, prophet, seer, and revelator, you are kicked out). He receives no money for what he does. He preaches that tithing is 10% of what you have left over after you've taken care of your expenses (10% of excess), and that it should only go to the poor. He preaches that if a man is a servant of God, he should be a real servant, sacrificing, losing money, in the service of his fellowman. I could go on, but I'm done. I'm sure I've preached shocking heresy to the max, already in my posts.

So much heresy....why do you listen to him now? I thought all of you were going to Christ.

[Silver Pie]

I listen to him because I follow Christ. I don't know how to explain other than to say I recognize my Lord's words in a lot of what Denver says. When I have concerns about the direction something is going, I take it to God. God either explains it to me or shows me what the truth is. I follow Christ closely. That is my only safety. And if my Lord, my God, and my Christ turns out to be the dark one, then I guess the dark one must be my father. All I know is that I must follow the Voice I recognize, even if I am misunderstood, even if I am persecuted at some point, even if it appears that I am following some trickster or some egomaniac. (I don't consider the people on LDSFF as persecuting me because I recognize that many of you are concerned about my soul, and are worried that I am following the devil down to hell. I recognize that, and I appreciate that concern.)

[underdog]

I listen to him because I follow Christ. I don't know how to explain other than to say I recognize my Lord's words in a lot of what Denver says. When I have concerns about the direction something is going, I take it to God. God either explains it to me or shows me what the truth is. I follow Christ closely. That is my only safety. And if my Lord, my God, and my Christ turns out to be the dark one, then I guess the dark one must be my father. All I know is that I must follow the Voice I recognize, even if I am misunderstood, even if I am persecuted at some point, even if it appears that I am following some trickster or some egomaniac.

Thank you Silver Pie.

Your explanation helped me realize that I am actively exercising faith in Christ. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I believe the path I'm on is the path which God's voice is beckoning me down.

I hear Christ's words in Denver's teachings. And I would be cowardly to not obey.

If I'm deceived and were to die right now I'd have to say to Jesus, I'd have to make my case that I was following HIS words as found in the Scriptures. And He would be compelled to say that I was following Him. Then perhaps I would sing these words, "Then in a moment to my view the Stranger started from disguise. The tokens in His hands I knew the Savior stood before mine eyes. He spake and my poor name He named, "Of me thou has not been ashamed; These deeds shall thy memorial be; fear not, thou didst them unto me."

What you said was so beautiful. Thank you!

[Arenera]

and Satan did go about, leading away the hearts of the people, tempting them and causing them that they should do great wickedness in the land. (see John Doe)

and the sword of destruction did hang over them, insomuch that they were about to be smitten down by it, and this because of their iniquity.

[underdog]

And Kirtland and Nauvoo. 3 whiffs. LocatLocation not nearly as important as a repentant people.

I really like your comments. The love gets through.

Thank you.

Do you mind if I ask, are you a Brother or Sister? I assume Sister. What's your story? Convert? Grow up in the Church? Conversion story? Why do you believe?

In this instance, I'm not talking about places that could be considered 'zion', I'm referring to THE place that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith jr. the place that he 'appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints'. In D&C 57:1-3 he named Independence Missouri, saying; ...'wherefore this is the land of promise, and for the place for the city of zion...'

You are correct, I am a sister. I'm born and raised in the church, I've got strong LDS roots on both sides of my family; I'm a descendant of Hyrum Smith (there are a few of us on the forum). I had my own struggles when I was much younger--but they made me stronger because I decided that if I was going to remain in the church I needed to be 'all in' and needed to know it was true. Through studying, reading the scriptures, prayer, studying other resources and living the commandments, repenting and making changes, coming to know my Savior, I gained a witness and a firm testimony of the Gospel. I began studying gospel doctrine and church history when I was in my teens, but I also read the challenges put forward by church critics. Learning about the church and the doctrines is a hobby I've enjoyed my whole life. I taught Gospel Doctrine for a total of nine years and in addition to secular studies, I taught Book of Mormon and Bible classes at a private LDS school for a few years. I live in the Salt Lake area though I was raised in California, and am presently serving as a Ward Missionary.

What about you? I believe you said you are a convert and served a mission. Did you only start to have doubts about the church when you were introduced to Snuffer's writings, or was this earlier?

AI2,

I tried to respond yesterday after I got home from a long day at church, but my remarks were all accidentally deleted before I could save them.

To answer your question, yes I am a convert and I did serve a mission as soon as I could after I was baptized. I have served in three bishoprics, as SS Pres, YM President, as Ward Mission leader twice, as Elders Quorum president twice, as Gospel Doctrine teacher, as Seminary teacher, and some other callings for brief stints I suppose which I can't think of.

Denver didn't cause me to doubt the Church. He validated my doubts by opening up the scriptures to me. Ezekiel 33-34 is one crystal clear example.

My doubts started back when I read An Enemy Hath Done This by Ezra Taft Benson, which led me to The Naked Capitalist by Cleon Skousen.

These two courageous, unalloyed patriots convinced me to engage in the animating contest of Liberty. Benson died. And with him the fire of patriotism died in the Church.

Ever since his death, you can't find a talk on Liberty. Benson was like Captain Moroni. He gave stirring speeches on Freedom and Her enemies. He, along with Skousen, exposed the modern Gadianton Robbers. But there's been an unseen hand inside the Church belittling the Patriot cause and quieting any voices who would stand against tyranny and oppression, while at the same time, there's been a dramatic INCREASE in acts of unrighteous dominion and oppression of the Mormon people.

Benson warned specifically against conspirators outside the Church and INSIDE the Church -- yes, I remember a quote where he said there are wolves in sheep's clothing -- the way he said it was the enemies within wore the habiliments of the priesthood (I'll see if I can find the quote). In 1971 IN GENERAL CONFERENCE (see YouTube video) he recommended we read None Dare Call It Conspiracy which was no doubt inspired by Skousen's book mentioned above.

Here's the quote I just found (very easy to find with keyword search of "habiliments"). It was said in a 1967 General Conference talk by Ezra Taft Benson:

In the Book of Mormon the prophet Nephi exclaims: "O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm" (2 Ne. 4:34).

Prophesying of our day, Nephi said, ". . . they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Ne. 28:14).

Yes, it is the precepts of men versus the principles of God. The more we follow the word of God, the less we are deceived, while those who follow the wisdom of men are deceived the most.

Increasingly the Latter-day Saints must choose between the reasoning of men and the revelations of God. This is a crucial choice, for we have those within the Church today who, with their worldly wisdom, are leading some of our members astray. President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that "the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood . . . We should be careful of them."

And by the way, the Church has done its level best to cover up all the patriotic talks given by patriot Mormon leaders (another evidence of apostasy). These talks are never quoted and confined to the memory hole (see 1984 book). You must agree, AI2, the above quote is a quote you will NEVER EVER find uttered by LDS leaders of today, and not since Ezra Taft Benson died. If I were to quote this in ward meeting, and I think I will (!), I would cause quite a stir, if not get some type of reprimand off the record after the fact by some dutiful high councilman following an unwritten command from above.

I believe it is highly likely Benson was neutralized by tares within. He was muzzled. Just as Samuel Smith was likely murdered by tares within a few weeks of Joseph's death. Samuel, as soon as he learned of his brothers' deaths, came home and announced that Joseph had appointed him as the leader should Joseph and Hyrum both die. This was not a quiet rumor, but very public. Even the local non Mormon newspaper had published Samuel's claim. Cousin to Brigham Young was Willard Richards. He did his best to keep Samuel quiet and to wait for Brigham to return back home from abroad. There is ample evidence to support the theory that Samuel was poisoned by a white powder. He figured out (and told his wife) he was being poisoned, but by then it was too late. His body couldn't overcome and reverse the cumulative effect of the poison. The story is recounted at this link. Part One is at this link.

So I had doubts continually creeping in during GBH's tenure. He was so watered down and weak-minded compared to Benson. I wasn't embarrassed by him but not proud of him. Then in 2001 or thereabouts he gave a terrible talk on War and Peace. The worst talk ever given. And he gave a talk saying 9/11 fulfilled Joel's prophecy of the blood moon.

During Hinckley's term, there seemed to be a quiet persecution inside the church of patriots. Nothing was written but there was a chilling effect on anti NWO members. I wondered why the Church leaders were so gutless on fighting tyranny and identifying the enemy. Why did the Church support and associate with the UN?

These questions caused me to wonder if the Brethren were flat out deceived or willing participants. Neither option were suitable for men who were supposed prophets, seers and revelators.

For several years I just decided they were deceived. I refused to think they were willing participants. Eventually I just focused on serving and not rocking the boat. But maybe 10 years ago I made an appt with an area authority. We had lunch together. I was going to ask him how he could explain the Church being silent in the Cause of Liberty. But as we talked I sensed that he wasn't a patriot and fairly asleep as to the battle for Freedom being waged in the world, and who the players were, etc., so I never really broached the subject.

Then Denver came along 22 months ago. He confirmed my suspicions. And used history and scripture to prove the Church is utterly apostate.

As far as Denver being a true prophet, time will tell.

[underdog]

and Satan did go about, leading away the hearts of the people, tempting them and causing them that they should do great wickedness in the land. (see John Doe)

and the sword of destruction did hang over them, insomuch that they were about to be smitten down by it, and this because of their iniquity.

John Doe repented. Not the example you're looking for.