Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

[underdog]

I have given you 8 facts of apostasy that stand as facts.

Lol, those 8 don't even meet your definition of apostasy.

Let's measure my list of 8 evidences against the standard of apostasy we agreed on. Subjectivity DOES come into play as one must decide the following: Does each act "persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God"? Because "then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil"; or conversely, does the act "inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ"?

I won't do the thinking for the reader. I'll just ask the questions, in red bold and underlined.

• (1) The Church teaches that the president and/or the Brethren can't lead us astray. The FACT is, the "can't lead you astray" precept is an actual teaching of the Church. It is taught by leadership and parroted endlessly by rank and file members who believe it. Moses 4:3 (War in Heaven) totally refutes this anti Christ notion. Heavenly Father permitted Lucifer to lead billions of God's children astray. Furthermore, the idea that the Lord won't permit a leader to lead others astray abrogates the free will of the president of the Church. If he "cannot" lead the Church astray, he's just a puppet or slave to God. God doesn't have slaves. He honors agency. QUESTION: Does saying a man can't lead you astray entice you to believe in Christ, or is the effect more to serve not God, but men?

• (2) The "can't lead us astray" precept of man was secretly added to OD 1 in 1981 when a few excerpts from Wilford Woodruff were added. No announcement. No vote. This is FACT. QUESTION: Does adding such a man-focused, a "follow a man" precept entice you to believe in Christ, or is the effect more to serve not God, but men?

• (3) Elder Ronald E. Poelman's pulled talk in 1984. It was refilmed and spliced into the original. The spliced version is at lds.org. There were major changes in content, the main change being that the attempt to teach that the gospel is SEPARATE from the Church was removed. There was no announcement that the Church changed the content of his talk. And no explanation. They've chosen to cover it up and to not give any attention to it. This is FACT. TWO QUESTIONS: Does refilming in the dark of night with no announcement and no explanation have the effect of enticing you to believe in Christ or not, does it seem like Christ would entice the decision-maker to do that or not? And, does removing a teaching (from the original talk) that clearly separates Jesus Christ/ His gospel from man/institution, or in other words, does the edited version that UNITES man and Christ have the effect of enticing you to believe in Christ more or in men more?

• (4) There is a faulty logic chain officially promoted by the Brethren in the Introduction to the BoM. Moroni's promise (Moroni 10:3-4) applies ONLY to the BoM and Joseph the translator, and NOT the Church/the Brethren. This is FACT. The faulty logic is listed on the Intro Page in the Church's published BoM. It's the last paragraph at https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/int ... n?lang=eng. QUESTION: Does promoting this faulty logic have the effect of enticing to believe more in Christ or in an institution/men?

• (5) If the above examples and any other examples of apostasy of the Brethren were brought up for discussion at church and a member was asking, "what's up with these facts?", we all know what the result would be: that member would be branded as "losing the faith," or as a heretic, or even "apostate". Let's be honest. This is the truth. It is a FACT. Some say, "well, bring up some or all of these points!" That's been done. Denver essentially did this with Passing of the Heavenly Gift, and his reward was excommunication. Another FACT. QUESTIONS: Does creating an environment where sincere questions can't be asked entice members to believe in Christ or believe in men? Does an atmosphere, where you feel you have to tow the party line, entice one to believe in Christ or in men? For the leaders who are branding temple-recommend worthy members as apostate or even casting them out, are THEY the leaders enticed by a spirit coming from Christ?

• (6) Lectures on Faith were pulled from our canon in 1921. No vote. However, they were inserted by the Prophet in 1835 and voted on by the Church. FACT. QUESTION: Does the act of a 1921 committee, which reversed an 1835 prophetic decision and church vote to include "leading items of the doctrine of the Church" (i.e., the LoF), without a church wide vote or discussion entice one to believe in Christ or to believe not in Christ?

• (7) Joseph's Last Vision is not taught by the Church at all. It's avoided like the plague. It is accurate to say it has been institutionally covered up. You can't find it in any manuals. You can't find it in any General Conference talks. You can't find it at lds.org anywhere. This is FACT. I've searched for it, and the results that come up are: "Your search returned 0 results." This vision obviously points to latter-day apostasy of the Church Joseph founded. The Church doesn't even try to spin the interpretation to mean something undamaging to itself. It simply ignores it and blacks it out, so that the vast majority of Mormons have never even heard of it. QUESTION: Does the intentional blackout of Joseph's Last Vision tend to entice you to be in Christ, to seek truth, to know all things, to prove all things, or does the blackout thwart efforts to seek and know the truth of all things?

• (8) Similarly, there is a cover-up of the parable in DC 101:43-62. Talk about raising some questions! But ZERO conversation. It's never brought up. It is COVERED UP, there is a blackout! It's so plainly referring to the Church apostasy that no leader wants the eternal ignominy of attaching their name to an attempted spin job on it. So they just ignore it! I've done a search on www.lds.org for any mention of this parable which prophecies of Church apostasy, and the results are "Your search returned 0 results." This is FACT. QUESTION: Does this blackout encourage thought and discussion and prayer discovery (i.e., coming unto Christ/truth) of this monumental prophesy of the Church majorly dropping the ball (i.e. going apostate), or does the blackout thwart thought and discussion and prayer (coming unto Christ) on the vitally important implications of this prophesy?

Let the independent-minded reader judge for him or herself what these facts mean as far as some degree of apostasy or not. No doubt, Shadow, as you have been such a staunch church institution loyalist, you will assert "nothing here...there are no droids here...move along...move along..." (to borrow a line from Star Wars).

In my humble opinion, after viewing this list of 8 evidences, I don't know how one can honestly assert complete innocence of the Church, and that there is no culpability. Truthfully, if you just kept the top two examples, that would be coffin nails to any debate on the subject because to claim men can't lead you astray is such a blatant, tried and true authoritarian tactic and it is so pernicious a 'doctrine' it would have the effect of creating a membership of mindless zombies within one or two generations who are so "oath-like" (Elder Nelson's words) bound to their leaders as to render them incapable of independent thought.

How any good, righteous, intelligent Mormon, AFTER being informed that this dangerous precept was secretly slipped into our canon in 1981, can seriously argue FOR the antiChrist teaching that the Church can't lead members astray is truly astonishing. I never bought completely into that teaching fortunately. I didn't really hear it much in the 1990's and 2000's, but in the last 4 years or so it's become the dominant doctrine of our beloved Church. There's been an acceleration, or ramping up of the rhetoric. Sides are being drawn.

In the Church...

On one side (primarily in the Remnant now, in and outside the Church) you have freedom of thought, and a rallying cry to depend on the Lord and to seek Him for truth and salvation.

On the OTHER side you have an authoritarian inclination getting out of control. You have a spirit of censorship, which is manifested in simple ways like Mark trying to banish me to outer darkness on this very forum, just for disagreeing. You have an epidemic and heightening level of encouragement to DEPEND ON the Brethren.

One sure fire way to detect a false messenger is to look for whether or not they are attempting to get you to depend on them. On the other hand, a true messenger sent by God will endeavor to get you to depend on God and not on man.

You see the same two sides in the world, in general.

1) Freedom, independence of thought, and a will to not be controlled or suppressed by tyranny. This side promises freedom and truth.
2) You have the tyrannical push for domination, for thought control, for DEPENDENCE on something other than God (government, "the Brethren", an institution, etc. This spirit promises (but can't fulfill) safety and peace. The catch is: they want to control you.

May God bless us all to see the truth. And above all to worship Jesus Christ in spirit and truth.

[Arenera]

A dissenter like Denver Snuffer violates everything that Christ has setup for the salvation of God's children. This is what the adversary would do.

As Denver wanders in the wilderness, does he bring people to Christ? No, he encourages people to be outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. These communities do "their own thing", each group operating a different way, not even agreeing on their points of belief.

The John Doe scenario shows how the Denver "communities" operate. A Women's Council, as encouraged by Denver, tried to restrict a Serial Sex Pervert from running around practicing his perversion. What does Denver do? He says the person is penitent, so the Women should stop their council. After the women hold the council, the Larsen's come in to change it. No one agreeing on this.

Denver's way is full of contention and confusion.

Underdog's way is the same. Underdog is a dissident who preaches against the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Joseph Smith taught that the LDS Church was the kingdom of God on earth and would endure to the end, there is no way around it.

The mandate was given to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The keys/authority were given to Joseph Smith who, in turn, gave them to the 12. Brigham young was the president of the 12. That process via revelation has continued on to this day and keeps moving forward.

“Our missionaries are going forth to different nations...The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.” -Joseph Smith

The work has not stopped. Our missionaries are still going forth to different nations. There is no new dispensation. I suggest Snuffer's followers put an end the their calumny of the brethren and the Lords Church.

Also I would love to hear an example of Denver engaging in calumny against the Church.

Denver Snuffer is a false prophet. How can one know:

1.

The Book of Mormon was a project guided by God starting in 600BC. Plates were gathered, prophets were guided and commanded to keep the plates and write spiritual information on more plates. A prophet historian and his son abridged the plates and sealed them up in the earth. These plates were destined to come forth by the power of God during the dispensation of the fulness of times. Joseph, an unlearned but spiritual giant was selected in the pre-existence to translate the plates to the Book of Mormon, and to start the restoration and begin the dispensation of the fulness of times. Brigham Young was selected in the pre-existence to continue the restoration and dispensation when Joseph was killed.

2.

This is Joseph's dispenstation, as told in his own words a few days before he was killed:

The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began.

I testify again, as the Lord lives, God never will acknowledge any traitors or apostates. Any man who will betray the Catholics will betray you; and if he will betray me, he will betray you. All men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the Priesthood of Melchisedek, which is after the order of the Son of God.

It is the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood; but when men come out and build upon other men's foundations, they do it on their own responsibility, without authority from God; and when the floods come and the winds blow, their foundations will be found to be sand, and their whole fabric will crumble to dust.

Did I build on any other man's foundation?"

3.

D&C 112:20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

D&C 112:30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times,

4.

Christ setup His Organization, several witnesses to this:
A.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
B.
18 And it came to pass that he spake unto Nephi (for Nephi was among the multitude) and he commanded him that he should come forth.

19 And Nephi arose and went forth, and bowed himself before the Lord and did kiss his feet.

20 And the Lord commanded him that he should aarise. And he arose and stood before him.

21 And the Lord said unto him: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven.

22 And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you.

1 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you.
C.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

5.

Joseph Smith Letter to John Wentworth
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... transcript
At the request of Mr. John Wentworth, Editor, and Proprietor of the “Chicago Democrat,” I have written the following sketch of the rise, progress, persecution, and faith of the Latter-Day Saints, of which I have the honor, under God, of being the founder.
...
Persecution has not stopped the progress of truth, but has only added fuel to the flame, it has spread with increasing rapidity, proud of the cause which they have espoused and conscious of their innocence and of the truth of their system amidst calumny and reproach have the elders of this church gone forth, and planted the gospel in almost every state in the Union; it has penetrated our cities, it has spread over our villages, and has caused thousands of our intelligent, noble, and patriotic citizens to obey its divine mandates, and be governed by its sacred truths. It has also spread into England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales: in the year of 1839 where a few of our missionaries were sent over five thousand joined the standard of truth, there are numbers now joining in every land.

Our missionaries are going forth to different nations, and in Germany, Palestine, New Holland, the East Indies, and other places, the standard of truth has been erected: no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing, persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done.

6.

Stakes are part of Christ's organization:
Doctrine and Covenants 115:6
6 And that the gathering together upon the land of Zion, and upon her stakes, may be for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth.

Dissenters and apostates leave the safety of Stakes and wander aimlessly in the wilderness.

7.

The Book of Mormon also shows what happens to the over-zealous and dissenters.

Zeniff and some other over-zealous people wanted to return to the land where they grew up, the land of Nephi. Years earlier, King Mosiah was instructed by the Lord to leave the land of Nephi because it had become dangerous. Mosiah led those who would go with him to the land of Zarahemla where they joined with the Mulekites. This was the place of safety, the church headquarters.

Zeniff and others, in their over-zealous state of mind, took their families and went back to the land of Nephi. Zeniff was a righteous man but when he passed on, his wicked son Noah started a reign of wickedness leading the people astray.

Abinadi was sent to the people of Zeniff to warn them of their wickedness. They burned Abinadi and then had wars with the Lamanites. Eventually, some of the people made it back to the land of Zarahemla, to the safety of the body of the church and the headquarters.

8. Brigham Young was approved of God

Brigham Young received the sealing power: “by the calling of [God’s] own voice” (citing JST-Gen. 14:29). Orson Hyde described a heavenly manifestation given to all the Twelve.

In the month of February, 1848, the Twelve Apostles met at Hyde Park, Pottawattamie County, Iowa, where a small Branch of the Church was established…. We were in prayer and council, communing together; and what took place on that occasion? The voice of God came from on high, and spake to the Council. Every latent feeling was aroused, and every heart melted. What did it say unto us? “Let my servant Brigham step forth and receive the full power of the presiding Priesthood in my Church and kingdom.” This was the voice of the Almighty unto us at Council Bluffs, before I removed to what was called Kanesville. It has been said by some that Brigham was appointed by the people, and not by the voice of God. I do not know that this testimony has often, if ever, been given to the masses of the people before; but I am one that was present, and there are others here that were also present on that occasion, and did hear and feel the voice from heaven, and we were filled with the power of God. This is my testimony; these are my declarations unto the Saints—unto the members of the kingdom of God in the last days, and to all people.
Orson Hyde, in Journal of Discourses 8:233–34 (7 October 1860)

We also have Joseph Smith’s witness of Brigham’s worthiness to enjoy the divine presence. Heber C. Kimball reported Joseph’s anxiety for the Twelve on their mission to England:
He saw the Twelve going forth, and they appeared to be in a far distant land. After some time they unexpectedly met together, apparently in great tribulation, their clothes all ragged, and their knees and feet sore. They formed into a circle, and all stood with their eyes fixed upon the ground. The Savior appeared and stood in their midst and wept over them, and wanted to show Himself to them, but they did not discover Him.

He (Joseph) saw until they had accomplished their work, and arrived at the gate of the celestial city; there Father Adam stood and opened the gate to them, and as they entered he embraced them one by one and kissed them. He then led them to the throne of God, and then the Savior embraced each one of them in the presence of God. He saw that they all had beautiful heads of hair and all looked alike. The impression this vision left on Brother Joseph’s mind was of so acute a nature, that he never could refrain from weeping while rehearsing it.
Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Co., 1988), 93–94.

Denver did not receive the First Presidency. The First Presidency has the power, not Denver. The last days for the last time. Denver tries to worm out of this with his lawyer background, but he has no power. Denver Snuffer is a dissenter, a traitor and an apostate, leading those that follow away from the safety of Christ's Stakes.

[shadow]

I have given you 8 facts of apostasy that stand as facts.

Lol, those 8 don't even meet your definition of apostasy.

Let's measure my list of 8 evidences against the standard of apostasy we agreed on. Subjectivity DOES come into play as one must decide the following: Does each act "persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God"? Because "then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil"; or conversely, does the act "inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ"?

I won't do the thinking for the reader. I'll just ask the questions, in red bold and underlined.

• (1) The Church teaches that the president and/or the Brethren can't lead us astray. The FACT is, the "can't lead you astray" precept is an actual teaching of the Church. It is taught by leadership and parroted endlessly by rank and file members who believe it. Moses 4:3 (War in Heaven) totally refutes this anti Christ notion. Heavenly Father permitted Lucifer to lead billions of God's children astray. Furthermore, the idea that the Lord won't permit a leader to lead others astray abrogates the free will of the president of the Church. If he "cannot" lead the Church astray, he's just a puppet or slave to God. God doesn't have slaves. He honors agency. QUESTION: Does saying a man can't lead you astray entice you to believe in Christ, or is the effect more to serve not God, but men?

I believe the thinking is that God won't allow the office of Prophet to lead the church astray. What that means is that if a Prophet decides to lead the church astray, he will be dealt with either via the law and system God set up in the D&C (the one Snuffer forgot about) or simply his life is ended or incapacitated. God can do that- He can take a life. So it isn't that a man can't lead someone astray, it's that a Prophet won't. That's not to say he might make mistakes, he is human, but he won't lead the church astray. Mormon says this- "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ." Mormon's statement can be applied to some of your other 8 issues. And to be clear, since you misapply and misunderstand things, in the war in heaven God (who is of the first presidency) rejected Lucifer and sent him away (excommunicated). Not that Lucifer was "the" Prophet- he wasn't, but you brought this up earlier so I thought I'd apply it correctly for you because you seem to struggle with it.

• (2) The "can't lead us astray" precept of man was secretly added to OD 1 in 1981 when a few excerpts from Wilford Woodruff were added.[/color] No announcement. No vote. This is FACT. QUESTION: Does adding such a man-focused, a "follow a man" precept entice you to believe in Christ, or is the effect more to serve not God, but men?[/color][/u][/b]

See my above comment. Following the Lord's Prophet does entice me to follow Christ. It should you, too.

• (3) Elder Ronald E. Poelman's pulled talk in 1984. It was refilmed and spliced into the original. The spliced version is at lds.org. There were major changes in content, the main change being that the attempt to teach that the gospel is SEPARATE from the Church was removed. There was no announcement that the Church changed the content of his talk. And no explanation. They've chosen to cover it up and to not give any attention to it. This is FACT. TWO QUESTIONS: Does refilming in the dark of night with no announcement and no explanation have the effect of enticing you to believe in Christ or not, does it seem like Christ would entice the decision-maker to do that or not? And, does removing a teaching (from the original talk) that clearly separates Jesus Christ/ His gospel from man/institution, or in other words, does the edited version that UNITES man and Christ have the effect of enticing you to believe in Christ more or in men more?

I don't see what the issue is here. But first it's important to note that Poelman said himself that he wanted to redo it. But had he been told to, I still don't see where anything was done that rejects Christ. General Conferences are under the direction of the First Presidency. You are aware that Snuffer has been changing scriptures, right? This might take you a few minutes, but think about it.

• (4) There is a faulty logic chain officially promoted by the Brethren in the Introduction to the BoM. Moroni's promise (Moroni 10:3-4) applies ONLY to the BoM and Joseph the translator, and NOT the Church/the Brethren. This is FACT. The faulty logic is listed on the Intro Page in the Church's published BoM. It's the last paragraph at https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/int ... n?lang=eng. QUESTION: Does promoting this faulty logic have the effect of enticing to believe more in Christ or in an institution/men?

It's not faulty logic. I mean, did you read verse 5?? "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." Why leave that one out? The church didn't. Why not quote the part you think is apostate and lets discuss it. This is probably one of the more lame reasons you've listed. In fact, I'd be interested to know if you came up with this on your own or if you got it from someone else and didn't actually pay any attention to it because this is pretty stupid.

• (5) If the above examples and any other examples of apostasy of the Brethren were brought up for discussion at church and a member was asking, "what's up with these facts?", we all know what the result would be: that member would be branded as "losing the faith," or as a heretic, or even "apostate". Let's be honest. This is the truth. It is a FACT. Some say, "well, bring up some or all of these points!" That's been done. Denver essentially did this with Passing of the Heavenly Gift, and his reward was excommunication. Another FACT. QUESTIONS: Does creating an environment where sincere questions can't be asked entice members to believe in Christ or believe in men? Does an atmosphere, where you feel you have to tow the party line, entice one to believe in Christ or in men? For the leaders who are branding temple-recommend worthy members as apostate or even casting them out, are THEY the leaders enticed by a spirit coming from Christ?

Another silly question. If someone has issues, they can and are encouraged to speak with their Priesthood authority- a Bishop or Stake President. Most issues people have are of their own incorrect interpretations, PTHG is one. Publicly teaching that church leaders are out of the way and gathering a following while doing it is the incorrect way to address issues. Joseph Smith even taught this- as do the scriptures. Your straw-man of either believing men or believing Christ is false. There's room for both and God set it up that way.

• (6) Lectures on Faith were pulled from our canon in 1921. No vote. However, they were inserted by the Prophet in 1835 and voted on by the Church. FACT. QUESTION: Does the act of a 1921 committee, which reversed an 1835 prophetic decision and church vote to include "leading items of the doctrine of the Church" (i.e., the LoF), without a church wide vote or discussion entice one to believe in Christ or to believe not in Christ?

This has been discussed at length and I believe the conclusion was that while Joseph Smith allowed it to be in the book of commandments, he wasn't the one who did it. Either way, it isn't a revelation and it wasn't written by Joseph Smith. It's good to know IMO, but it probably doesn't belong in the Doctrine and Covenants. But if someone wants to read it, it isn't hidden anywhere. Nothing about it is hidden. So again, does not having it in the D&C constitute evil or deny Christ in any way, shape or form? Nope.

• (7) Joseph's Last Vision is not taught by the Church at all. It's avoided like the plague. It is accurate to say it has been institutionally covered up. You can't find it in any manuals. You can't find it in any General Conference talks. You can't find it at lds.org anywhere. This is FACT. I've searched for it, and the results that come up are: "Your search returned 0 results." This vision obviously points to latter-day apostasy of the Church Joseph founded. The Church doesn't even try to spin the interpretation to mean something undamaging to itself. It simply ignores it and blacks it out, so that the vast majority of Mormons have never even heard of it. QUESTION: Does the intentional blackout of Joseph's Last Vision tend to entice you to be in Christ, to seek truth, to know all things, to prove all things, or does the blackout thwart efforts to seek and know the truth of all things?

You and I have been over this. There is no interpretation of his dream. He certainly didn't interpret it and your interpretation makes ZERO sense. There's certainly no doctrine in his dream. Does the dream point to Christ? No. Did he say it was a revelation? No. Did he even ask that it be put in canon? Nope.

• (8) Similarly, there is a cover-up of the parable in DC 101:43-62. Talk about raising some questions! But ZERO conversation. It's never brought up. It is COVERED UP, there is a blackout! It's so plainly referring to the Church apostasy that no leader wants the eternal ignominy of attaching their name to an attempted spin job on it. So they just ignore it! I've done a search on www.lds.org for any mention of this parable which prophecies of Church apostasy, and the results are "Your search returned 0 results." This is FACT. QUESTION: Does this blackout encourage thought and discussion and prayer discovery (i.e., coming unto Christ/truth) of this monumental prophesy of the Church majorly dropping the ball (i.e. going apostate), or does the blackout thwart thought and discussion and prayer (coming unto Christ) on the vitally important implications of this prophesy?

If it's blacked-out, as you suppose, why is it still there? Like usual, you misunderstand the scriptures. When did Zion fail?? Was Joseph Smith still the Prophet at that time?? The answer is yes. In following sections the Lord gives instruction about redeeming it, meaning it had already failed. He said it would be "many days" meaning a long time before it's redeemed. We're still working on it, it hasn't been redeemed yet, but the failure of it occurred under Joseph's watch- that's indisputable. And note that the "blacked-out" parable doesn't claim that an apostasy occurs. No, the Lord still refers to his servants as his servants and his watchmen as his watchmen. They failed, but the Lord still recognizes them as His. That's FACT and it's undeniable. You can read the "Blacked-out" version of it in your own LDS scriptures. It really isn't as blacked-out as you think.

Let the independent-minded reader judge for him or herself what these facts mean as far as some degree of apostasy or not. No doubt, Shadow, as you have been such a staunch church institution loyalist, you will assert "nothing here...there are no droids here...move along...move along..." (to borrow a line from Star Wars). Actually, it's "These aren't the droids you're looking for". But honestly, there is absolutely NOTHING to you 8 points. I think most people can see that.

In my humble opinion, after viewing this list of 8 evidences, I don't know how one can honestly assert complete innocence of the Church, and that there is no culpability. (I don't know how you can think it amounts to apostasy in any way.) Truthfully (I don't think that word means what you think it means), if you just kept the top two examples, that would be coffin nails to any debate on the subject because to claim men can't lead you astray is such a blatant, tried and true authoritarian tactic and it is so pernicious a 'doctrine' it would have the effect of creating a membership of mindless zombies within one or two generations who are so "oath-like" (Elder Nelson's words) bound to their leaders as to render them incapable of independent thought.

How any good, righteous, intelligent Mormon, AFTER being informed that this dangerous precept was secretly slipped into our canon in 1981, can seriously argue FOR the antiChrist teaching that the Church can't lead members astray is truly astonishing. I never bought completely into that teaching fortunately. I didn't really hear it much in the 1990's and 2000's, but in the last 4 years or so it's become the dominant doctrine of our beloved Church. There's been an acceleration, or ramping up of the rhetoric. Sides are being drawn. (Not really. Other than this site, I've never even heard of Denver Snuffer. But it is true, the Snuffers along with the other apostates are binding themselves into the tares they are.)

In the Church...

On one side you have freedom of thought, and a rallying cry to depend on the Lord and to seek Him for truth and salvation.

On the OTHER side you have an authoritarian bent. You have a spirit of censorship, which is manifested in simple ways like Mark trying to banish me to outer darkness on this forum. You have an epidemic and heightening level of encouragement to DEPEND ON the Brethren.

One sure fire way to detect a false messenger is to look for whether or not they are attempting to get you to depend on them. On the other hand, a true messenger sent by God will endeavor to get you to depend on God.

May God bless us all to see the truth. And above all to worship Jesus Christ in spirit and truth.

Yet again, after searching through a pile of dog crap, pun intended, there is nothing valid from underdog.

[e-eye2.0]

One nice thing about this movement is that we may actually be able to separate their members from our members. It may not fully separate the secret Snuffer followers from the LDS but I think at least it will draw a line. The chasm of apostasy from the wheat and tares is growing. It will continue to grow and it will get some of the best of them. Although I say it's good due to the protection from knowing the wolves it's still really sad.

For a long time, when I was young, I thought that those who chose Satan's plan in the pre-mortal life must have been some of the most wicked of the wicked especially knowing there role here now on earth. However, now my understanding that there were really good people who were lost and made poor choice. It makes sense how they could become what they are today. It goes the same way with those few leaving the church. Lot's of really good people who are making some poor choices that for now seem pretty justifiable in their minds. The Lord also doesn't always punish us immediately, so there will be some surprised people in denver's group one day - some are waking up now to his follies.

I wonder if Satan told his followers that if they were wrong God would forgive them in the end and eventually let them come to earth. Satan will tell any lie he can to lead people off the straight and narrow. The war for souls then and now might have been very similar.

[underdog]

I have given you 8 facts of apostasy that stand as facts.

Lol, those 8 don't even meet your definition of apostasy.

Let's measure my list of 8 evidences against the standard of apostasy we agreed on. Subjectivity DOES come into play as one must decide the following: Does each act "persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God"? Because "then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil"; or conversely, does the act "inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ"?

I won't do the thinking for the reader. I'll just ask the questions, in red bold and underlined.

• (1) The Church teaches that the president and/or the Brethren can't lead us astray. The FACT is, the "can't lead you astray" precept is an actual teaching of the Church. It is taught by leadership and parroted endlessly by rank and file members who believe it. Moses 4:3 (War in Heaven) totally refutes this anti Christ notion. Heavenly Father permitted Lucifer to lead billions of God's children astray. Furthermore, the idea that the Lord won't permit a leader to lead others astray abrogates the free will of the president of the Church. If he "cannot" lead the Church astray, he's just a puppet or slave to God. God doesn't have slaves. He honors agency. QUESTION: Does saying a man can't lead you astray entice you to believe in Christ, or is the effect more to serve not God, but men?

I believe the thinking is that God won't allow the office of Prophet to lead the church astray. What that means is that if a Prophet decides to lead the church astray, he will be dealt with either via the law and system God set up in the D&C (the one Snuffer forgot about) or simply his life is ended or incapacitated. God can do that- He can take a life. So it isn't that a man can't lead someone astray, it's that a Prophet won't. That's not to say he might make mistakes, he is human, but he won't lead the church astray. Mormon says this- "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ." Mormon's statement can be applied to some of your other 8 issues. And to be clear, since you misapply and misunderstand things, in the war in heaven God (who is of the first presidency) rejected Lucifer and sent him away (excommunicated). Not that Lucifer was "the" Prophet- he wasn't, but you brought this up earlier so I thought I'd apply it correctly for you because you seem to struggle with it.

• (2) The "can't lead us astray" precept of man was secretly added to OD 1 in 1981 when a few excerpts from Wilford Woodruff were added.[/color] No announcement. No vote. This is FACT. QUESTION: Does adding such a man-focused, a "follow a man" precept entice you to believe in Christ, or is the effect more to serve not God, but men?[/color][/u][/b]

See my above comment. Following the Lord's Prophet does entice me to follow Christ. It should you, too.

• (3) Elder Ronald E. Poelman's pulled talk in 1984. It was refilmed and spliced into the original. The spliced version is at lds.org. There were major changes in content, the main change being that the attempt to teach that the gospel is SEPARATE from the Church was removed. There was no announcement that the Church changed the content of his talk. And no explanation. They've chosen to cover it up and to not give any attention to it. This is FACT. TWO QUESTIONS: Does refilming in the dark of night with no announcement and no explanation have the effect of enticing you to believe in Christ or not, does it seem like Christ would entice the decision-maker to do that or not? And, does removing a teaching (from the original talk) that clearly separates Jesus Christ/ His gospel from man/institution, or in other words, does the edited version that UNITES man and Christ have the effect of enticing you to believe in Christ more or in men more?

I don't see what the issue is here. But first it's important to note that Poelman said himself that he wanted to redo it. But had he been told to, I still don't see where anything was done that rejects Christ. General Conferences are under the direction of the First Presidency. You are aware that Snuffer has been changing scriptures, right? This might take you a few minutes, but think about it.

• (4) There is a faulty logic chain officially promoted by the Brethren in the Introduction to the BoM. Moroni's promise (Moroni 10:3-4) applies ONLY to the BoM and Joseph the translator, and NOT the Church/the Brethren. This is FACT. The faulty logic is listed on the Intro Page in the Church's published BoM. It's the last paragraph at https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/int ... n?lang=eng. QUESTION: Does promoting this faulty logic have the effect of enticing to believe more in Christ or in an institution/men?

It's not faulty logic. I mean, did you read verse 5?? "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." Why leave that one out? The church didn't. Why not quote the part you think is apostate and lets discuss it. This is probably one of the more lame reasons you've listed. In fact, I'd be interested to know if you came up with this on your own or if you got it from someone else and didn't actually pay any attention to it because this is pretty stupid.

• (5) If the above examples and any other examples of apostasy of the Brethren were brought up for discussion at church and a member was asking, "what's up with these facts?", we all know what the result would be: that member would be branded as "losing the faith," or as a heretic, or even "apostate". Let's be honest. This is the truth. It is a FACT. Some say, "well, bring up some or all of these points!" That's been done. Denver essentially did this with Passing of the Heavenly Gift, and his reward was excommunication. Another FACT. QUESTIONS: Does creating an environment where sincere questions can't be asked entice members to believe in Christ or believe in men? Does an atmosphere, where you feel you have to tow the party line, entice one to believe in Christ or in men? For the leaders who are branding temple-recommend worthy members as apostate or even casting them out, are THEY the leaders enticed by a spirit coming from Christ?

Another silly question. If someone has issues, they can and are encouraged to speak with their Priesthood authority- a Bishop or Stake President. Most issues people have are of their own incorrect interpretations, PTHG is one. Publicly teaching that church leaders are out of the way and gathering a following while doing it is the incorrect way to address issues. Joseph Smith even taught this- as do the scriptures. Your straw-man of either believing men or believing Christ is false. There's room for both and God set it up that way.

• (6) Lectures on Faith were pulled from our canon in 1921. No vote. However, they were inserted by the Prophet in 1835 and voted on by the Church. FACT. QUESTION: Does the act of a 1921 committee, which reversed an 1835 prophetic decision and church vote to include "leading items of the doctrine of the Church" (i.e., the LoF), without a church wide vote or discussion entice one to believe in Christ or to believe not in Christ?

This has been discussed at length and I believe the conclusion was that while Joseph Smith allowed it to be in the book of commandments, he wasn't the one who did it. Either way, it isn't a revelation and it wasn't written by Joseph Smith. It's good to know IMO, but it probably doesn't belong in the Doctrine and Covenants. But if someone wants to read it, it isn't hidden anywhere. Nothing about it is hidden. So again, does not having it in the D&C constitute evil or deny Christ in any way, shape or form? Nope.

• (7) Joseph's Last Vision is not taught by the Church at all. It's avoided like the plague. It is accurate to say it has been institutionally covered up. You can't find it in any manuals. You can't find it in any General Conference talks. You can't find it at lds.org anywhere. This is FACT. I've searched for it, and the results that come up are: "Your search returned 0 results." This vision obviously points to latter-day apostasy of the Church Joseph founded. The Church doesn't even try to spin the interpretation to mean something undamaging to itself. It simply ignores it and blacks it out, so that the vast majority of Mormons have never even heard of it. QUESTION: Does the intentional blackout of Joseph's Last Vision tend to entice you to be in Christ, to seek truth, to know all things, to prove all things, or does the blackout thwart efforts to seek and know the truth of all things?

You and I have been over this. There is no interpretation of his dream. He certainly didn't interpret it and your interpretation makes ZERO sense. There's certainly no doctrine in his dream. Does the dream point to Christ? No. Did he say it was a revelation? No. Did he even ask that it be put in canon? Nope.

• (8) Similarly, there is a cover-up of the parable in DC 101:43-62. Talk about raising some questions! But ZERO conversation. It's never brought up. It is COVERED UP, there is a blackout! It's so plainly referring to the Church apostasy that no leader wants the eternal ignominy of attaching their name to an attempted spin job on it. So they just ignore it! I've done a search on www.lds.org for any mention of this parable which prophecies of Church apostasy, and the results are "Your search returned 0 results." This is FACT. QUESTION: Does this blackout encourage thought and discussion and prayer discovery (i.e., coming unto Christ/truth) of this monumental prophesy of the Church majorly dropping the ball (i.e. going apostate), or does the blackout thwart thought and discussion and prayer (coming unto Christ) on the vitally important implications of this prophesy?

If it's blacked-out, as you suppose, why is it still there? Like usual, you misunderstand the scriptures. When did Zion fail?? Was Joseph Smith still the Prophet at that time?? The answer is yes. In following sections the Lord gives instruction about redeeming it, meaning it had already failed. He said it would be "many days" meaning a long time before it's redeemed. We're still working on it, it hasn't been redeemed yet, but the failure of it occurred under Joseph's watch- that's indisputable. And note that the "blacked-out" parable doesn't claim that an apostasy occurs. No, the Lord still refers to his servants as his servants and his watchmen as his watchmen. They failed, but the Lord still recognizes them as His. That's FACT and it's undeniable. You can read the "Blacked-out" version of it in your own LDS scriptures. It really isn't as blacked-out as you think.

Let the independent-minded reader judge for him or herself what these facts mean as far as some degree of apostasy or not. No doubt, Shadow, as you have been such a staunch church institution loyalist, you will assert "nothing here...there are no droids here...move along...move along..." (to borrow a line from Star Wars). Actually, it's "These aren't the droids you're looking for". But honestly, there is absolutely NOTHING to you 8 points. I think most people can see that.

In my humble opinion, after viewing this list of 8 evidences, I don't know how one can honestly assert complete innocence of the Church, and that there is no culpability. (I don't know how you can think it amounts to apostasy in any way.) Truthfully (I don't think that word means what you think it means), if you just kept the top two examples, that would be coffin nails to any debate on the subject because to claim men can't lead you astray is such a blatant, tried and true authoritarian tactic and it is so pernicious a 'doctrine' it would have the effect of creating a membership of mindless zombies within one or two generations who are so "oath-like" (Elder Nelson's words) bound to their leaders as to render them incapable of independent thought.

How any good, righteous, intelligent Mormon, AFTER being informed that this dangerous precept was secretly slipped into our canon in 1981, can seriously argue FOR the antiChrist teaching that the Church can't lead members astray is truly astonishing. I never bought completely into that teaching fortunately. I didn't really hear it much in the 1990's and 2000's, but in the last 4 years or so it's become the dominant doctrine of our beloved Church. There's been an acceleration, or ramping up of the rhetoric. Sides are being drawn. (Not really. Other than this site, I've never even heard of Denver Snuffer. But it is true, the Snuffers along with the other apostates are binding themselves into the tares they are.)

In the Church...

On one side you have freedom of thought, and a rallying cry to depend on the Lord and to seek Him for truth and salvation.

On the OTHER side you have an authoritarian bent. You have a spirit of censorship, which is manifested in simple ways like Mark trying to banish me to outer darkness on this forum. You have an epidemic and heightening level of encouragement to DEPEND ON the Brethren.

One sure fire way to detect a false messenger is to look for whether or not they are attempting to get you to depend on them. On the other hand, a true messenger sent by God will endeavor to get you to depend on God.

May God bless us all to see the truth. And above all to worship Jesus Christ in spirit and truth.

Yet again, after searching through a pile of dog crap, pun intended, there is nothing valid from underdog.

Your points are completely hollow words. No substance. Of course you would just hastily write down some tripe. I knew that. Content-wise you said nothing. I'm not going to waste time debating subjective opinions anyway. The 8 facts stand as facts. The facts are not subjective, or the result of opinion, but they are facts. I invite the reader to think for themselves if there's something to those facts, or if they just want to look the other way and not consider the implications.

Facts is facts. HOW you interpret them is another story. Of course, people like you, clinging to a false notion that "the church is true" despite the "desolation around me", as Joseph described the state of his farm after he returned to it later in his Last Vision, will assert the facts mean nothing. "These are not the droids you're looking for" (thanks for the quote correction!).

You burst into your bedroom and another man is naked standing next to the bed, and hurriedly getting dressed looking worried and distressed, while your wife is naked in bed still. One COULD argue they weren't engaged in adultery. Yes, you COULD say that. You COULD interpret the situation and make up excuses. Yes, you could. I'll give you that. Your arguments are like that. So I'm not going to argue. It's a complete waste of my time.

Some perhaps will see the facts I've listed (just a mere 8 of 30+) and start to think for themselves, and perhaps even question the sacred cow. "Wait a second. Could it possibly be that these men haven't seen Jesus, that they don't talk with Jesus as a man talketh with another man, and that they are just men trying their best to lead the church to the best of their abilities, but just maybe, just perhaps they err, and they just MIGHT be leading us astray, on for example, the assertion that they can't lead me astray? Maybe they could mislead me. Maybe I need to pay more attention. Maybe I should ask the Lord. Maybe I've gotten complacent. Maybe I've outsourced my spiritual responsibilities to men who mean well, but aren't actual true prophets, seers, and revelators. Maybe I should try to do as Elder Poelman originally taught. Maybe I should not put my faith in men, in an institution, but rather in the Lord, and strive to not depend on any man, but depend on the Lord. Maybe I should strive for spiritual independence, with full faith in the Lord and no faith in men, for the Lord is my Savior and not man."

[shadow]

Your points are completely hollow words. No substance.

Coming from a guy who can't understand how Snuffer's excommunication had anything to do with his court, I'm not surprised you can't understand the replies to your silly list.

Best wishes in the church of the snuffer remnants.

[e-eye2.0]

“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives. - Joseph Smith

I guess this is why Joseph called this action of men one of the mysteries of the Kingdom. So many people slide down this slippery slope and can't stop. To many it seems so obvious that there is a problem but to those rising up against the church it's as thought the spirit is gone and mysteries closed. How many times does this eternal principal have to play out. the good news is there is repentance, sadly I think few choose that option.

[underdog]

Shadow,

I've asked that you provide one instance of "apostate" teaching given by Denver Snuffer. So far you have not done it. Perhaps his own words will motivate you to action?

“If I am telling the truth, then how you respond is important. I would ask you, for your own sake, to not falsely accuse me . You do not need to respond to me. You do not need to like me. You do not ever need to mention my name again. But if what I am saying is the truth, you need to respond to it. This is between you and God, not you and me. You need to choose how you will live your life from this day forward. The Lord is coming to judge the quick and the dead. You need to get right with Him ....

“Either I am a liar and you ought to forget everything I've said, or I have been sent by someone greater than I am. If I have been sent and you reject and quibble over the things I declare to you, it is at your peril! It ought to be that way. I ought to be damned if I'm a pretender, and I ought to be damned and rejected by God if I'm saying things about which I know nothing! But I bear witness to you I know what I'm talking about. I have no reason to lie to you. I have no reason to pay to reserve a place to speak to you, and ask nothing of you but to listen. It requires a sacrifice to do what I am doing. I have no other reason to do this than to tell you the truth. Joseph Smith testified to these things and I am come as a second witness. Therefore you now have two proclaiming the same doctrine.…

“I recognize that I am not the best messenger. I wish I had the voice of an archangel. I wish I could do something to soften the hearts of you all. Some of you will never respond to the Lord because you cannot overcome your preoccupation with me. That saddens me and I regret that deeply. But that is your choice, and you can choose differently . Christ is in fact holy, and I am deeply aware of the fact that I am not. I can't redeem any of you, but He can. I can testify of Him, but when it comes down to it, you should be able to feel faith. You should be able to feel something important was communicated by God today....

“I have never said this publicly, but because of what I think will ensue after this talk I am going to say it – not for my sake, and certainly not for the sake of anyone who believes the truth or who has the Spirit, but I say it only to benefit those who may view things completely otherwise. The Lord has said to me in His own voice, "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you." Therefore, I want to caution those who disagree with me, to feel free, to feel absolutely free to make the case against what I say – feel free to disagree, and make your contrary arguments; if you believe I err, then expose the error and denounce it – but take care; take care about what you say concerning me for your sake, not for mine.... I live with constant criticism. I can take it. But I do not want you provoking divine ire by unfortunately chosen words if I can persuade you against it....

“Your relationship [with God] and your accountability is not to me, it's to Him. Therefore, be persuaded. Please, for your own sake, be persuaded....”

Or in the words of J. Reuben Clark (with Denver plugged in):

“If (Denver Snuffer) teaches the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If he has not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”

I ask you to bring to light what he has taught or done that is apostate!

Because I know you're tempted, please do not bring a false assumption (or any assumption or assertion) to the table. Specifically, you cannot state what you assume to be true or believe to be true (i.e., you believe the Church is led by true prophets), and then accuse Denver of a sin because he says the Church is apostate.

In fact, as already shown, this is actually what true prophets do!! They call the church (or religious status quo or orthodoxy) to repentance! So he actually checks off on an important characteristic! If there was a checklist of of what a true prophet does, that would be one of them.

Joseph was hated for that testimony. I remember having a very dear family member (who's a devout, faithful Christian) explode in rage (which I had never seen before nor since) when I read to her Joseph's testimony of the first vision. The words which caused her explosive reaction were:

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

Joseph called the church to repentance. That's what true prophets do!

Denver does likewise. His mission is not his choice. Despite him, as a faithful member of the Church, wanting the Lord to use somebody else, he said:

Your circumstances are entirely peculiar to you. You are living your life and I am living mine. You are asked to minister in your family, to minister in your neighborhood, to function among your friends, to deal with people that you know. I, on the other hand, am required not only to do that in my circumstances, but also to come and talk to you good people (Underdog's notes: i.e. testify to the Church and the world). Whether you believe me sincere or not, I would much rather not have been asked to do this. But apparently, in the economy of God, no one else was willing to do it.]

We've agreed to a simple definition of apostasy.

So, are you going to continue to go silent, or provide an example of how Denver is apostate?

He's written probably millions of words, and continues to write and speak publicly. Those talks are meticulously recorded and published.

Readers of his teachings, thousands of them, testify that their faith in Christ has increased, that their spirits soar and are prompted to repent, that they with greater earnestness seek the Lord now in their daily life, and on and on. Denver's teachings cause that type of fruit in the lives of many. Many give credit to transformed lives due to his teachings which are pro Christ and intimately of Christ. You give no acknowledgement of that effect, but yet you do make wild accusations that he's of the devil and apostate.

And yet, you can't document publicly where he's off base. Just what specifically, Shadow, is "off base"? What teaching or practice is "apostate"?

And Arenera, please resist the urge to parrot stuff which is based on false tradition (i.e., that "the Church is true" or the "Brethren are true messengers." You cannot use a tradition, just as I can't use a tradition I hold up and judge you against that tradition. You wouldn't stand for that either. Use gospel principles. Denver must oppose Christ. If he's apostate he should "persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God," according to Mormon (Moroni 7).

Fire away!

[Arenera]

Denver Snuffer took the slanderous calumny route and you are following his disension.

Denver's way is full of contention and confusion.

Underdog's way is the same. Underdog is a dissident who preaches against the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Joseph Smith taught that the LDS Church was the kingdom of God on earth and would endure to the end, there is no way around it.

The mandate was given to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The keys/authority were given to Joseph Smith who, in turn, gave them to the 12. Brigham young was the president of the 12. That process via revelation has continued on to this day and keeps moving forward.

“Our missionaries are going forth to different nations...The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.” -Joseph Smith

The work has not stopped. Our missionaries are still going forth to different nations. There is no new dispensation. I suggest Snuffer's followers put an end the their calumny of the brethren and the Lords Church.

Also I would love to hear an example of Denver engaging in calumny against the Church.

Denver Snuffer is a false prophet. How can one know:

1.

The Book of Mormon was a project guided by God starting in 600BC. Plates were gathered, prophets were guided and commanded to keep the plates and write spiritual information on more plates. A prophet historian and his son abridged the plates and sealed them up in the earth. These plates were destined to come forth by the power of God during the dispensation of the fulness of times. Joseph, an unlearned but spiritual giant was selected in the pre-existence to translate the plates to the Book of Mormon, and to start the restoration and begin the dispensation of the fulness of times. Brigham Young was selected in the pre-existence to continue the restoration and dispensation when Joseph was killed.

2.

This is Joseph's dispenstation, as told in his own words a few days before he was killed:

The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began.

I testify again, as the Lord lives, God never will acknowledge any traitors or apostates. Any man who will betray the Catholics will betray you; and if he will betray me, he will betray you. All men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the Priesthood of Melchisedek, which is after the order of the Son of God.

It is the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood; but when men come out and build upon other men's foundations, they do it on their own responsibility, without authority from God; and when the floods come and the winds blow, their foundations will be found to be sand, and their whole fabric will crumble to dust.

Did I build on any other man's foundation?"

3.

D&C 112:20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

D&C 112:30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times,

4.

Christ setup His Organization, several witnesses to this:
A.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
B.
18 And it came to pass that he spake unto Nephi (for Nephi was among the multitude) and he commanded him that he should come forth.

19 And Nephi arose and went forth, and bowed himself before the Lord and did kiss his feet.

20 And the Lord commanded him that he should aarise. And he arose and stood before him.

21 And the Lord said unto him: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven.

22 And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you.

1 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you.
C.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

5.

Joseph Smith Letter to John Wentworth
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... transcript
At the request of Mr. John Wentworth, Editor, and Proprietor of the “Chicago Democrat,” I have written the following sketch of the rise, progress, persecution, and faith of the Latter-Day Saints, of which I have the honor, under God, of being the founder.
...
Persecution has not stopped the progress of truth, but has only added fuel to the flame, it has spread with increasing rapidity, proud of the cause which they have espoused and conscious of their innocence and of the truth of their system amidst calumny and reproach have the elders of this church gone forth, and planted the gospel in almost every state in the Union; it has penetrated our cities, it has spread over our villages, and has caused thousands of our intelligent, noble, and patriotic citizens to obey its divine mandates, and be governed by its sacred truths. It has also spread into England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales: in the year of 1839 where a few of our missionaries were sent over five thousand joined the standard of truth, there are numbers now joining in every land.

Our missionaries are going forth to different nations, and in Germany, Palestine, New Holland, the East Indies, and other places, the standard of truth has been erected: no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing, persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done.

6.

Stakes are part of Christ's organization:
Doctrine and Covenants 115:6
6 And that the gathering together upon the land of Zion, and upon her stakes, may be for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth.

Dissenters and apostates leave the safety of Stakes and wander aimlessly in the wilderness.

7.

The Book of Mormon also shows what happens to the over-zealous and dissenters.

Zeniff and some other over-zealous people wanted to return to the land where they grew up, the land of Nephi. Years earlier, King Mosiah was instructed by the Lord to leave the land of Nephi because it had become dangerous. Mosiah led those who would go with him to the land of Zarahemla where they joined with the Mulekites. This was the place of safety, the church headquarters.

Zeniff and others, in their over-zealous state of mind, took their families and went back to the land of Nephi. Zeniff was a righteous man but when he passed on, his wicked son Noah started a reign of wickedness leading the people astray.

Abinadi was sent to the people of Zeniff to warn them of their wickedness. They burned Abinadi and then had wars with the Lamanites. Eventually, some of the people made it back to the land of Zarahemla, to the safety of the body of the church and the headquarters.

8. Brigham Young was approved of God

Brigham Young received the sealing power: “by the calling of [God’s] own voice” (citing JST-Gen. 14:29). Orson Hyde described a heavenly manifestation given to all the Twelve.

In the month of February, 1848, the Twelve Apostles met at Hyde Park, Pottawattamie County, Iowa, where a small Branch of the Church was established…. We were in prayer and council, communing together; and what took place on that occasion? The voice of God came from on high, and spake to the Council. Every latent feeling was aroused, and every heart melted. What did it say unto us? “Let my servant Brigham step forth and receive the full power of the presiding Priesthood in my Church and kingdom.” This was the voice of the Almighty unto us at Council Bluffs, before I removed to what was called Kanesville. It has been said by some that Brigham was appointed by the people, and not by the voice of God. I do not know that this testimony has often, if ever, been given to the masses of the people before; but I am one that was present, and there are others here that were also present on that occasion, and did hear and feel the voice from heaven, and we were filled with the power of God. This is my testimony; these are my declarations unto the Saints—unto the members of the kingdom of God in the last days, and to all people.
Orson Hyde, in Journal of Discourses 8:233–34 (7 October 1860)

We also have Joseph Smith’s witness of Brigham’s worthiness to enjoy the divine presence. Heber C. Kimball reported Joseph’s anxiety for the Twelve on their mission to England:
He saw the Twelve going forth, and they appeared to be in a far distant land. After some time they unexpectedly met together, apparently in great tribulation, their clothes all ragged, and their knees and feet sore. They formed into a circle, and all stood with their eyes fixed upon the ground. The Savior appeared and stood in their midst and wept over them, and wanted to show Himself to them, but they did not discover Him.

He (Joseph) saw until they had accomplished their work, and arrived at the gate of the celestial city; there Father Adam stood and opened the gate to them, and as they entered he embraced them one by one and kissed them. He then led them to the throne of God, and then the Savior embraced each one of them in the presence of God. He saw that they all had beautiful heads of hair and all looked alike. The impression this vision left on Brother Joseph’s mind was of so acute a nature, that he never could refrain from weeping while rehearsing it.
Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Co., 1988), 93–94.

9. Denver Snuffer's calumny book Passing the Heavenly Gift

Denver finally showed his false colors when he wrote Passing the Heavenly Gift, a slanderous book of Denver's version of Church History.

Denver, a trained lawyer, presented one side of items and became a trained liar. His reward was being excommunicated from the Church. He is easily debunked:

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passin ... ne-of-two/

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passin ... wo-of-two/

[underdog]

Arenera,

Jesus and all the Prophets preached against the status quo leaders of their day. That's what true prophets do.

Why do you think they are reviled?

Bring a teaching that is apostate. Stop regurgitating stuff that is not relevant.

I still hear crickets. Shadow?

And calumny means you say something false. Denver is speaking truth.

But please stick to showing what specifically is apostate.

[shadow]

I still hear crickets. Shadow?

Lol, you hear all sorts of stuff. It's proof that snufferism is a mental disorder. I can take you to the water but I can't force you to drink it.

[Arenera]

Arenera,

Jesus and all the Prophets preached against the status quo leaders of their day. That's what true prophets do.

Why do you think they are reviled?

Bring a teaching that is apostate. Stop regurgitating stuff that is not relevant.

I still hear crickets. Shadow?

And calumny means you say something false. Denver is speaking truth.

But please stick to showing what specifically is apostate.

Read closely, Denver wrote a slanderous book against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint. Denver was excommunicated for apostasy. The book is false.

You have also committed apostasy by publicly promoting your 8 false facts. Be honest with your bishop and you'll find out.

Why do you hide like a tare in Christ's Church?

[underdog]

I still hear crickets. Shadow?

Lol, you hear all sorts of stuff. It's proof that snufferism is a mental disorder. I can take you to the water but I can't force you to drink it.

I thought you'd relish the opportunity to publicly show where Denver opposes Jesus Christ.

The fact that you decline or can't is very telling.

Using the water analogy, it's more like I'm enjoying cool, refreshing life-saving fresh water while you yell at me that it's contaminated while you perish from forcing yourself to drink salt water.

[Arenera]

I still hear crickets. Shadow?

Lol, you hear all sorts of stuff. It's proof that snufferism is a mental disorder. I can take you to the water but I can't force you to drink it.

I thought you'd relish the opportunity to publicly show where Denver opposes Jesus Christ.

The fact that you decline or can't is very telling.

Using the water analogy, it's more like I'm enjoying cool, refreshing life-saving fresh water while you yell at me that it's contaminated while you perish from forcing yourself to drink salt water.

This is for you and Denver.

Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.

[underdog]

Arenera,

Jesus and all the Prophets preached against the status quo leaders of their day. That's what true prophets do.

Why do you think they are reviled?

Bring a teaching that is apostate. Stop regurgitating stuff that is not relevant.

I still hear crickets. Shadow?

And calumny means you say something false. Denver is speaking truth.

But please stick to showing what specifically is apostate.

Read closely, Denver wrote a slanderous book against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint. Denver was excommunicated for apostasy. The book is false.

You have also committed apostasy by publicly promoting your 8 false facts. Be honest with your bishop and you'll find out.

Why do you hide like a tare in Christ's Church?

What slander specifically do you refer to?

Which of the 8 facts are false?

I predict you do not answer as you are prone to do.

[Arenera]

Arenera,

Jesus and all the Prophets preached against the status quo leaders of their day. That's what true prophets do.

Why do you think they are reviled?

Bring a teaching that is apostate. Stop regurgitating stuff that is not relevant.

I still hear crickets. Shadow?

And calumny means you say something false. Denver is speaking truth.

But please stick to showing what specifically is apostate.

Read closely, Denver wrote a slanderous book against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint. Denver was excommunicated for apostasy. The book is false.

You have also committed apostasy by publicly promoting your 8 false facts. Be honest with your bishop and you'll find out.

Why do you hide like a tare in Christ's Church?

What slander specifically do you refer to?

Which of the 8 facts are false?

I predict you do not answer as you are prone to do.

The book Denver wrote is your slander answer, for which Denver was excommunicated.

These 9 points debunk your 8 false facts:

1. The Power of God bringing forth the Book of Mormon in the dispensation of the fulness of times

The Book of Mormon was a project guided by God starting in 600BC. Plates were gathered, prophets were guided and commanded to keep the plates and write spiritual information on more plates. A prophet historian and his son abridged the plates and sealed them up in the earth. These plates were destined to come forth by the power of God during the dispensation of the fulness of times. Joseph, an unlearned but spiritual giant was selected in the pre-existence to translate the plates to the Book of Mormon, and to start the restoration and begin the dispensation of the fulness of times. Brigham Young was selected in the pre-existence to continue the restoration and dispensation when Joseph was killed.

2. People can't take away Joseph's dispensation

This is Joseph's dispenstation, as told in his own words a few days before he was killed:

The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began.

I testify again, as the Lord lives, God never will acknowledge any traitors or apostates. Any man who will betray the Catholics will betray you; and if he will betray me, he will betray you. All men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the Priesthood of Melchisedek, which is after the order of the Son of God.

It is the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood; but when men come out and build upon other men's foundations, they do it on their own responsibility, without authority from God; and when the floods come and the winds blow, their foundations will be found to be sand, and their whole fabric will crumble to dust.

Did I build on any other man's foundation?"

3. Receiving the Apostles and Prophets

D&C 112:20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

D&C 112:30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times,

4. Christ's Organization - Apostles and Prophets

Christ setup His Organization, several witnesses to this:
A.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
B.
18 And it came to pass that he spake unto Nephi (for Nephi was among the multitude) and he commanded him that he should come forth.

19 And Nephi arose and went forth, and bowed himself before the Lord and did kiss his feet.

20 And the Lord commanded him that he should aarise. And he arose and stood before him.

21 And the Lord said unto him: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven.

22 And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you.

1 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you.
C.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

5. Calumny may defame but the purposes of God shall be accomplished

Joseph Smith Letter to John Wentworth
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... transcript
At the request of Mr. John Wentworth, Editor, and Proprietor of the “Chicago Democrat,” I have written the following sketch of the rise, progress, persecution, and faith of the Latter-Day Saints, of which I have the honor, under God, of being the founder.
...
Persecution has not stopped the progress of truth, but has only added fuel to the flame, it has spread with increasing rapidity, proud of the cause which they have espoused and conscious of their innocence and of the truth of their system amidst calumny and reproach have the elders of this church gone forth, and planted the gospel in almost every state in the Union; it has penetrated our cities, it has spread over our villages, and has caused thousands of our intelligent, noble, and patriotic citizens to obey its divine mandates, and be governed by its sacred truths. It has also spread into England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales: in the year of 1839 where a few of our missionaries were sent over five thousand joined the standard of truth, there are numbers now joining in every land.

Our missionaries are going forth to different nations, and in Germany, Palestine, New Holland, the East Indies, and other places, the standard of truth has been erected: no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing, persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done.

6. Christ's Organization - Stakes

Stakes are part of Christ's organization:
Doctrine and Covenants 115:6
6 And that the gathering together upon the land of Zion, and upon her stakes, may be for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth.

Dissenters and apostates leave the safety of Stakes and wander aimlessly in the wilderness.

7. Over-zealous people and dissenters

The Book of Mormon also shows what happens to the over-zealous and dissenters.

Zeniff and some other over-zealous people wanted to return to the land where they grew up, the land of Nephi. Years earlier, King Mosiah was instructed by the Lord to leave the land of Nephi because it had become dangerous. Mosiah led those who would go with him to the land of Zarahemla where they joined with the Mulekites. This was the place of safety, the church headquarters.

Zeniff and others, in their over-zealous state of mind, took their families and went back to the land of Nephi. Zeniff was a righteous man but when he passed on, his wicked son Noah started a reign of wickedness leading the people astray.

Abinadi was sent to the people of Zeniff to warn them of their wickedness. They burned Abinadi and then had wars with the Lamanites. Eventually, some of the people made it back to the land of Zarahemla, to the safety of the body of the church and the headquarters.

8. Brigham Young was approved of God

Brigham Young received the sealing power: “by the calling of [God’s] own voice” (citing JST-Gen. 14:29). Orson Hyde described a heavenly manifestation given to all the Twelve.

In the month of February, 1848, the Twelve Apostles met at Hyde Park, Pottawattamie County, Iowa, where a small Branch of the Church was established…. We were in prayer and council, communing together; and what took place on that occasion? The voice of God came from on high, and spake to the Council. Every latent feeling was aroused, and every heart melted. What did it say unto us? “Let my servant Brigham step forth and receive the full power of the presiding Priesthood in my Church and kingdom.” This was the voice of the Almighty unto us at Council Bluffs, before I removed to what was called Kanesville. It has been said by some that Brigham was appointed by the people, and not by the voice of God. I do not know that this testimony has often, if ever, been given to the masses of the people before; but I am one that was present, and there are others here that were also present on that occasion, and did hear and feel the voice from heaven, and we were filled with the power of God. This is my testimony; these are my declarations unto the Saints—unto the members of the kingdom of God in the last days, and to all people.
Orson Hyde, in Journal of Discourses 8:233–34 (7 October 1860)

We also have Joseph Smith’s witness of Brigham’s worthiness to enjoy the divine presence. Heber C. Kimball reported Joseph’s anxiety for the Twelve on their mission to England:
He saw the Twelve going forth, and they appeared to be in a far distant land. After some time they unexpectedly met together, apparently in great tribulation, their clothes all ragged, and their knees and feet sore. They formed into a circle, and all stood with their eyes fixed upon the ground. The Savior appeared and stood in their midst and wept over them, and wanted to show Himself to them, but they did not discover Him.

He (Joseph) saw until they had accomplished their work, and arrived at the gate of the celestial city; there Father Adam stood and opened the gate to them, and as they entered he embraced them one by one and kissed them. He then led them to the throne of God, and then the Savior embraced each one of them in the presence of God. He saw that they all had beautiful heads of hair and all looked alike. The impression this vision left on Brother Joseph’s mind was of so acute a nature, that he never could refrain from weeping while rehearsing it.
Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Co., 1988), 93–94.

9. Denver Snuffer's calumny book Passing the Heavenly Gift

Denver finally showed his false colors when he wrote Passing the Heavenly Gift, a slanderous book of Denver's version of Church History.

Denver, a trained lawyer, presented one side of items and became a trained liar. His reward was being excommunicated from the Church. He is easily debunked:

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passin ... ne-of-two/

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passin ... wo-of-two/

[shadow]

I still hear crickets. Shadow?

Lol, you hear all sorts of stuff. It's proof that snufferism is a mental disorder. I can take you to the water but I can't force you to drink it.

I thought you'd relish the opportunity to publicly show where Denver opposes Jesus Christ.

The fact that you decline or can't is very telling.

Using the water analogy, it's more like I'm enjoying cool, refreshing life-saving fresh water while you yell at me that it's contaminated while you perish from forcing yourself to drink salt water.

I've showed you where Snuffer opposes the Lord by his claims that the Lord's true Prophets and His church lost authority and keys when in fact they have not. I've shown that Snuffer never wrested the keys as he claims. You and I agreed that leading others away from true Prophets is an act of apostasy.

I've also proved to you that your list of 8 are false. While they can all easily be proved wrong, the easiest and simplest proof is here-

(4) There is a faulty logic chain officially promoted by the Brethren in the Introduction to the BoM. Moroni's promise (Moroni 10:3-4) applies ONLY to the BoM and Joseph the translator, and NOT the Church/the Brethren. This is FACT. The faulty logic is listed on the Intro Page in the Church's published BoM. It's the last paragraph at https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/int ... n?lang=eng. QUESTION: Does promoting this faulty logic have the effect of enticing to believe more in Christ or in an institution/men?

Do you see how you're a liar here?? You refer to Moroni 10:3-4 but you left out 5. Why did you do that?? The church quoted verse 5. Why seek to deceive?

Also, the list of 8 doesn't even meet your standard for apostasy. It's possible that because I used a blue font color you missed my responses. I'm not sure if you're color blind or not. It's a few posts above if you care to read them. If you need help understanding then just ask for clarification.

[Seek the Truth]

Arenera,

Jesus and all the Prophets preached against the status quo leaders of their day. That's what true prophets do.

Typical Snufferite dishonesty. What "true prophets" do changes by the hour.

Why do you think they are reviled?

LDS leaders are reviled.

Bring a teaching that is apostate.

That the LDS Church is apostate. That keys and legal administrators are not relevant. These are directly at odds with the scripture and Joseph Smith.

Stop regurgitating stuff that is not relevant.

We haven't. We don't.

I still hear crickets.

Your fingers are in your ears.

And calumny means you say something false. Denver is speaking truth.

No. He doesn't. If you don't find a legal administrator in the flesh you will be damned, according to Joseph Smith and the scriptures. Denver is leading you to hell.

But please stick to showing what specifically is apostate.

We did. We have. He was excommunicated. That is apostasy.

[Seek the Truth]

I thought you'd relish the opportunity to publicly show where Denver opposes Jesus Christ.

Denver opposes the teachings of Jesus Christ, which is opposing Christ.

[underdog]

Why do you think they are reviled?

LDS leaders are reviled.

By the LDS mainstream? No they aren't. True prophets are hated and reviled by those whom they call to repentance, but who think they need no repentance (like you). Think Jesus. Think Lehi. Think Nephi. Think Abinadi. Think Samuel. Think Joseph. Think Denver. In short, true prophets are reviled by people who do not want to repent, especially the leaders of the day, whose status and income and craft are threatened by the message of the prophet.

Bring a teaching that is apostate.

That the LDS Church is apostate. That keys and legal administrators are not relevant. These are directly at odds with the scripture and Joseph Smith.

As even Shadow apparently recognizes as he has ceased and desisted, you cannot bring your own tradition / assumptions as evidence. If you could, talk about stacking the deck in your favor! Jesus called the Jewish leaders corrupt. So you can plainly see the sheer silliness of them whining and complaining and murmuring, "He said we are corrupt! THAT'S the reason he's of the devil!" Seek the Truth, I'm explaining this in plain language to you in a respectful manner. What more can be done? But you above all else on this forum continue to repeat your same illogic.

Maybe Mosiah 17 will help you.

Even the wicked court that tried Abinadi knew they had to bring him up on some specific charge. I've asked you for something specific. Let's compare what you said above to what they (with King Noah as voice here) accused Abinadi of:

17 And he said unto him: Abinadi, we have found an accusation against thee, and thou art worthy of death.

18 For thou hast said that God himself should come down among the children of men; and now, for this cause thou shalt be put to death unless thou wilt recall all the words which thou hast spoken evil concerning me and my people.

The king stretched for something specific and finally said that Abinadi said Christ would "come down among the children of men" (hmmm, that sounds a lot like Denver teaching about Christ coming down to visit him (not to mention the book, The Second Comforter)!!). But then the REAL reason spills out in crystal clarity:

They will kill (literally in Abinadi's case or metaphorically by exing Denver) Abinadi "UNLESS" he "recalls" the negative things he's said about them.

This has a STUNNING parallel to the Church demanding that Denver recall his book "which speaks evil" of the Church and that he not go out on his speaking tour.

The similarities are so glaringly obvious that you might almost conclude this is fulfillment of an 'embedded prophesy'. Like Mormon may have actually seen our day and plucked and singled this story out of the thousands of pages of Nephite history for a reason!

Just in case some readers aren't aware, let me quote the actual words of the Church demands of Denver, which were put in writing by President Truman Hunt and addressed to Denver in August 2013:

"To avoid the disciplinary counsel (my words in parenthesis: i.e., the death penalty), I ask you, again:

1) To remove PTHG from publication;
2) To acknowledge to those who follow your blog that PTHG contains content that needs to be withdrawn; and
3) To cancel your plan speaking tour..."

To review, when pressed for a specific reason as to why Denver is guilty of apostasy against Christ, you are saying the SAME thing King Noah and his wicked priests are saying! This should give you pause. It's undeniable. To quote your specific reason stated above, "That the LDS Church is apostate." This angered the Church just as you are angry. This angered and bothered them so much that they formally, in writing, asked Denver to recall his words, just as Abinadi was asked to "recall all the words which thou hast spoken evil concerning me and my people." They threatened Denver with the "death penalty" (Let's call a spade a spade. We all know that's what excommunication means. You lose your temple blessings and miss out on the prospects of exaltation unless the Church restores them later) if he didn't comply with their demands.

That is a chilling parallel to Denver's case.

So I ask you again, if you kindly will, to share a specific teaching or practice (that is NOT rooted in tradition or assumptions of yours) of Denver's that show how he opposes Christ, that he is in apostasy, that he "persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God." So far you all have shared nothing.

The Jewish leaders KNEW (like you "know") they were "of God", that they were "right", that they were "chosen," that they were "authorized." They knew it. And so they felt justified in killing their Messiah, the Son of God. They said Jesus was guilty of blasphemy. And they would have been right if their assumptions were true. But they were wrong. Could you be wrong in your assumptions possibly? That's a great question. Will you answer that question? Is there even a remote chance your assumption could be wrong? Could "the Brethren" actually be leading you astray? Could Jesus want to talk to them, but they aren't listening? Could they be, in fact, in apostasy themselves, just as the Sanhedrin was? I predict you will not answer that question either.

Seekers of truth are anxiously awaiting your response.

My responses are in red above.

[Robin Hood]

Underdog,
You seem like an intelligent bloke.
I can't believe you've been taken in by all of this Denver Snuffer nonsense.
The man is clearly a fraud.

[shadow]

Underdog,
You seem like an intelligent bloke.

You obviously haven't read this thread.

[Arenera]

That the LDS Church is apostate. That keys and legal administrators are not relevant. These are directly at odds with the

Even the wicked court that tried Abinadi knew they had to bring him up on some specific charge. I've asked you for something specific. Let's compare what you said above to what they (with King Noah as voice here) accused Abinadi of:

17 And he said unto him: Abinadi, we have found an accusation against thee, and thou art worthy of death.

18 For thou hast said that God himself should come down among the children of men; and now, for this cause thou shalt be put to death unless thou wilt recall all the words which thou hast spoken evil concerning me and my people.

The king stretched for something specific and finally said that Abinadi said Christ would "come down among the children of men" (hmmm, that sounds a lot like Denver teaching about Christ coming down to visit him (not to mention the book, The Second Comforter)!!). But then the REAL reason spills out in crystal clarity:

They will kill (literally in Abinadi's case or metaphorically by exing Denver) Abinadi "UNLESS" he "recalls" the negative things he's said about them.

This has a STUNNING parallel to the Church demanding that Denver recall his book "which speaks evil" of the Church and that he not go out on his speaking tour.
[/color]

You and the remnants use the story of Abinadi out of context, therefore improperly.

The Church and Leaders were in Zarahemla. King Benjamin, his son Mosiah.

Abinadi was sent to the over-zealous people of Zeniff who became wicked. Denver is no parallel, especially since he didn't go before President Monson and the apostles. Denver wrote his slanderous book.

See point 7 below:

1. The Power of God bringing forth the Book of Mormon in the dispensation of the fulness of times

The Book of Mormon was a project guided by God starting in 600BC. Plates were gathered, prophets were guided and commanded to keep the plates and write spiritual information on more plates. A prophet historian and his son abridged the plates and sealed them up in the earth. These plates were destined to come forth by the power of God during the dispensation of the fulness of times. Joseph, an unlearned but spiritual giant was selected in the pre-existence to translate the plates to the Book of Mormon, and to start the restoration and begin the dispensation of the fulness of times. Brigham Young was selected in the pre-existence to continue the restoration and dispensation when Joseph was killed.

2. People can't take away Joseph's dispensation

This is Joseph's dispenstation, as told in his own words a few days before he was killed:

The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began.

I testify again, as the Lord lives, God never will acknowledge any traitors or apostates. Any man who will betray the Catholics will betray you; and if he will betray me, he will betray you. All men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the Priesthood of Melchisedek, which is after the order of the Son of God.

It is the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood; but when men come out and build upon other men's foundations, they do it on their own responsibility, without authority from God; and when the floods come and the winds blow, their foundations will be found to be sand, and their whole fabric will crumble to dust.

Did I build on any other man's foundation?"

3. Receiving the Apostles and Prophets

D&C 112:20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

D&C 112:30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times,

4. Christ's Organization - Apostles and Prophets

Christ setup His Organization, several witnesses to this:
A.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
B.
18 And it came to pass that he spake unto Nephi (for Nephi was among the multitude) and he commanded him that he should come forth.

19 And Nephi arose and went forth, and bowed himself before the Lord and did kiss his feet.

20 And the Lord commanded him that he should aarise. And he arose and stood before him.

21 And the Lord said unto him: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven.

22 And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you.

1 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you.
C.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

5. Calumny may defame but the purposes of God shall be accomplished

Joseph Smith Letter to John Wentworth
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... transcript
At the request of Mr. John Wentworth, Editor, and Proprietor of the “Chicago Democrat,” I have written the following sketch of the rise, progress, persecution, and faith of the Latter-Day Saints, of which I have the honor, under God, of being the founder.
...
Persecution has not stopped the progress of truth, but has only added fuel to the flame, it has spread with increasing rapidity, proud of the cause which they have espoused and conscious of their innocence and of the truth of their system amidst calumny and reproach have the elders of this church gone forth, and planted the gospel in almost every state in the Union; it has penetrated our cities, it has spread over our villages, and has caused thousands of our intelligent, noble, and patriotic citizens to obey its divine mandates, and be governed by its sacred truths. It has also spread into England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales: in the year of 1839 where a few of our missionaries were sent over five thousand joined the standard of truth, there are numbers now joining in every land.

Our missionaries are going forth to different nations, and in Germany, Palestine, New Holland, the East Indies, and other places, the standard of truth has been erected: no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing, persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done.

6. Christ's Organization - Stakes

Stakes are part of Christ's organization:
Doctrine and Covenants 115:6
6 And that the gathering together upon the land of Zion, and upon her stakes, may be for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth.

Dissenters and apostates leave the safety of Stakes and wander aimlessly in the wilderness.

7. Over-zealous people and dissenters

The Book of Mormon also shows what happens to the over-zealous and dissenters.

Zeniff and some other over-zealous people wanted to return to the land where they grew up, the land of Nephi. Years earlier, King Mosiah was instructed by the Lord to leave the land of Nephi because it had become dangerous. Mosiah led those who would go with him to the land of Zarahemla where they joined with the Mulekites. This was the place of safety, the church headquarters.

Zeniff and others, in their over-zealous state of mind, took their families and went back to the land of Nephi. Zeniff was a righteous man but when he passed on, his wicked son Noah started a reign of wickedness leading the people astray.

Abinadi was sent to the people of Zeniff to warn them of their wickedness. They burned Abinadi and then had wars with the Lamanites. Eventually, some of the people made it back to the land of Zarahemla, to the safety of the body of the church and the headquarters.

8. Brigham Young was approved of God

Brigham Young received the sealing power: “by the calling of [God’s] own voice” (citing JST-Gen. 14:29). Orson Hyde described a heavenly manifestation given to all the Twelve.

In the month of February, 1848, the Twelve Apostles met at Hyde Park, Pottawattamie County, Iowa, where a small Branch of the Church was established…. We were in prayer and council, communing together; and what took place on that occasion? The voice of God came from on high, and spake to the Council. Every latent feeling was aroused, and every heart melted. What did it say unto us? “Let my servant Brigham step forth and receive the full power of the presiding Priesthood in my Church and kingdom.” This was the voice of the Almighty unto us at Council Bluffs, before I removed to what was called Kanesville. It has been said by some that Brigham was appointed by the people, and not by the voice of God. I do not know that this testimony has often, if ever, been given to the masses of the people before; but I am one that was present, and there are others here that were also present on that occasion, and did hear and feel the voice from heaven, and we were filled with the power of God. This is my testimony; these are my declarations unto the Saints—unto the members of the kingdom of God in the last days, and to all people.
Orson Hyde, in Journal of Discourses 8:233–34 (7 October 1860)

We also have Joseph Smith’s witness of Brigham’s worthiness to enjoy the divine presence. Heber C. Kimball reported Joseph’s anxiety for the Twelve on their mission to England:
He saw the Twelve going forth, and they appeared to be in a far distant land. After some time they unexpectedly met together, apparently in great tribulation, their clothes all ragged, and their knees and feet sore. They formed into a circle, and all stood with their eyes fixed upon the ground. The Savior appeared and stood in their midst and wept over them, and wanted to show Himself to them, but they did not discover Him.

He (Joseph) saw until they had accomplished their work, and arrived at the gate of the celestial city; there Father Adam stood and opened the gate to them, and as they entered he embraced them one by one and kissed them. He then led them to the throne of God, and then the Savior embraced each one of them in the presence of God. He saw that they all had beautiful heads of hair and all looked alike. The impression this vision left on Brother Joseph’s mind was of so acute a nature, that he never could refrain from weeping while rehearsing it.
Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Co., 1988), 93–94.

9. Denver Snuffer's calumny book Passing the Heavenly Gift

Denver finally showed his false colors when he wrote Passing the Heavenly Gift, a slanderous book of Denver's version of Church History.

[jdt]

The Church and Leaders were in Zarahemla. King Benjamin, his son Mosiah.

Abinadi was sent to the over-zealous people of Zeniff who became wicked.

A curious claim considering what happened when Alma arrives in Zarahemla:

Mosiah 25:19 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.

20 Now this was done because there were so many people that they could not all be governed by one teacher; neither could they all hear the word of God in one assembly;

21 Therefore they did assemble themselves together in different bodies, being called churches; every church having their priests and their teachers, and every priest preaching the word according as it was delivered to him by the mouth of Alma.

Which is basically saying "do here what you did in the wilderness":

Mosiah18:16 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.

17 And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.

18 And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests; even one priest to every fifty of their number did he ordain to preach unto them, and to teach them concerning the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

Doing a quick search of the Book of Mormon, there is no usage of the term Church from Second Nephi 28 until Mosiah 18. And no references to it in Zarahemla until Alma's arrival. Then the term is used extensively through out the rest of the Book of Mosiah.
It is an interesting dynamic between Mosiah and Alma. One worthy of studying and understanding.

[Arenera]

The Church and Leaders were in Zarahemla. King Benjamin, his son Mosiah.

Abinadi was sent to the over-zealous people of Zeniff who became wicked.

A curious claim considering what happened when Alma arrives in Zarahemla:

Mosiah 25:19 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.

20 Now this was done because there were so many people that they could not all be governed by one teacher; neither could they all hear the word of God in one assembly;

21 Therefore they did assemble themselves together in different bodies, being called churches; every church having their priests and their teachers, and every priest preaching the word according as it was delivered to him by the mouth of Alma.

Which is basically saying "do here what you did in the wilderness":

Mosiah18:16 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.

17 And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.

18 And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests; even one priest to every fifty of their number did he ordain to preach unto them, and to teach them concerning the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

Doing a quick search of the Book of Mormon, there is no usage of the term Church from Second Nephi 28 until Mosiah 18. And no references to it in Zarahemla until Alma's arrival. Then the term is used extensively through out the rest of the Book of Mosiah.
It is an interesting dynamic between Mosiah and Alma. One worthy of studying and understanding.

Is Denver creating churches? No, just telling people to do communities. Are Denver's communities following the same practices? No, each community does their own thing.

See how Alma organizes :
17 And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.

18 And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests; even one priest to every fifty of their number did he ordain to preach unto them, and to teach them concerning the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

Alma did talk with Mosiah. Denver talks with the adversary.

Christ's Church is organized.

Denver doesn't have a church, or does he. There sure seems to be some hanging on every word he speaks or writes.