Deleted

[Crackers]

When antichrists I know throw this accusation at me I have a simple and humble response ready to go:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent over $1.2 billion on humanitarian aid. How about the charities you donate money to?

Of course these people don't donate; they only oppose religion, so at this point they start kicking against the pricks. If they try telling me how much more we could have spent I am again ready to rebut:
Without the organization, teachings, and temples of this church the billion and a quarter would not have been donated.

Source: http://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi ... an-efforts

$1.2 billion in what time-frame?

Answer: 30 years

People complain about the American Red Cross, but if you are concerned with humanitarian aid they give significantly more away:

Numbers from 2016 (http://www.redcross.org/news/press-rele ... -Donations)
$1,736.3 million - Collect, test, manufacture and distribute approximately 6.8 million blood products
$332.8 million – Respond to disasters – nearly 64,000 per year
$65.2 million – Provide more than 369,000 emergency services to our armed forces and their families
$148.3 million - Deliver preparedness, health and safety courses like First Aid and CPR
$119.7 million – Fund international relief programs
$33.2 million – Fund community services (e.g., food banks, transportation programs)

My understanding is that the Red Cross is terribly inefficient in their spending. I have known a few people who have volunteered for them and they have given me the gist of how things operate. At least two of these people admit that they themselves would never donate money to the red cross after witnessing their operations up close.

[mcusick]

2 Nephi 28: 13 "They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing"

So let's agree this is talking about a bad, bad church, and it would probably be a good idea to avoid making this same mistake.

I think the Lord places the poor above fine sanctuaries and fine clothing. Agree?

I don't speak for God like lot's of people on this forum. I consider myself a Yankee guesser like Brigham. But I think if God is outraged about a church's priorities, one way you could avoid that would be a simple price match.

E.g., if said bad church spent $100,000,000.00 in a year on fine sanctuaries and fine clothing, they could spend at least $100,000,000.01 on the poor. I don't know if that is good enough for the Lord, but you could potentially rationalize your behavior and claim you prioritize your efforts on the poor over buildings.

"For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known"

[mcusick]

When antichrists I know throw this accusation at me I have a simple and humble response ready to go:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent over $1.2 billion on humanitarian aid. How about the charities you donate money to?

Of course these people don't donate; they only oppose religion, so at this point they start kicking against the pricks. If they try telling me how much more we could have spent I am again ready to rebut:
Without the organization, teachings, and temples of this church the billion and a quarter would not have been donated.

Source: http://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi ... an-efforts

$1.2 billion in what time-frame?

Answer: 30 years

People complain about the American Red Cross, but if you are concerned with humanitarian aid they give significantly more away:

Numbers from 2016 (http://www.redcross.org/news/press-rele ... -Donations)
$1,736.3 million - Collect, test, manufacture and distribute approximately 6.8 million blood products
$332.8 million – Respond to disasters – nearly 64,000 per year
$65.2 million – Provide more than 369,000 emergency services to our armed forces and their families
$148.3 million - Deliver preparedness, health and safety courses like First Aid and CPR
$119.7 million – Fund international relief programs
$33.2 million – Fund community services (e.g., food banks, transportation programs)

My understanding is that the Red Cross is terribly inefficient in their spending. I have known a few people who have volunteered for them and they have given me the gist of how things operate. At least two of these people admit that they themselves would never donate money to the red cross after witnessing their operations up close.

I have heard similar things.

I have also heard anecdotally that working in the church office building is the fastest way to loose your testimony.

[Thinker]

Good questions. I think we all know the answer - but there may be social or other pressure to do what men want over what Jesus would want.

"We all" meaning those who don't support the Prophets and Apostles of Jesus Christ or trust them to know what He would want.

Not sure what it is going to take to help people understand that its not just about giving money to the poor. There is so much more that goes into this. Do we lack the faith in understanding that giving our best to the Lord, and putting him first and sacrificing to worship him qualify us to receive power and miracles from heaven. Becoming pure in heart is the answer to ridding the world of poverty and that is what the temple is all about. I would spend every last ounce of money for the opportunity for all of us to learn this principle.

Actually, as has been pointed out here, it would be impossible to ever rid the world of poverty due to the simple fact that there are people who very much like living in "poverty" because it enables them to live their life as they want to live it.
I have never felt that it should be up to me to believe I have the power, or the money, or the ego or whatever, to take that away from them.
dc

It seems some are clueless about what extreme poverty is - like LACK of clean water, food, basic health care. Have you ever been to a home with a dirt floor and leaking tin roof? Have you known people who suffered or even died for lack of simple medical treatment because they had no access to it? Remember that the US is not the world.

Try telling Jesus that the good Samaritan story was irrelevant because it was encouraging giving to someone wanting to be so desperate. What would Jesus say?

It saddens me when people of the church of JESUS CHRIST preach against his basic most important teachings! Who is your God? Whose church is this really?

[Zowieink]

There is a line between beautiful and opulence. Beauty can be achieve using materials that are cost effective and meet the intent of the design and do not create a opulent "over-the-top" feel. Having been one of the lucky architects to be responsible to a massive interior remodel on a local temple, there is much inefficiency in the Temple Department that oversees these projects. While each temple should be unique to its locale, there are many similarities that can in used from temple to temple, especially in the smaller ones, instead of constantly reinventing. The issue becomes when the architect/designer/project manager looses perspective and has to much ego concerning the project. President Monson after doing the cornerstone of a temple told the head of the Temple Department to never do such an "opulent" building again. The next two temples were much simpler, but still as beautiful and restful to the eye. Beauty does not need expensive materials (stone tile I watched be installed cost $700.00 per tile, which is crazy!). Much could be done to provide beautiful temples and grounds while maintaining a respectful budget and provide a work that is worthy of all acceptation by the Lord. Beauty does not always = $$$

[Crackers]

"We all" meaning those who don't support the Prophets and Apostles of Jesus Christ or trust them to know what He would want.

Not sure what it is going to take to help people understand that its not just about giving money to the poor. There is so much more that goes into this. Do we lack the faith in understanding that giving our best to the Lord, and putting him first and sacrificing to worship him qualify us to receive power and miracles from heaven. Becoming pure in heart is the answer to ridding the world of poverty and that is what the temple is all about. I would spend every last ounce of money for the opportunity for all of us to learn this principle.

Actually, as has been pointed out here, it would be impossible to ever rid the world of poverty due to the simple fact that there are people who very much like living in "poverty" because it enables them to live their life as they want to live it.
I have never felt that it should be up to me to believe I have the power, or the money, or the ego or whatever, to take that away from them.
dc

It seems some are clueless about what extreme poverty is - like LACK of clean water, food, basic health care. Have you ever been to a home with a dirt floor and leaking tin roof? Have you known people who suffered or even died for lack of simple medical treatment because they had no access to it? Remember that the US is not the world.
Yep, everyone (no, maybe just some of us?) who has a different opinion from you regarding the money that is spent on temples must be clueless about the completely different issue of the existence of extreme poverty. Totally good conclusion.

Try telling Jesus that the good Samaritan story was irrelevant because it was encouraging giving to someone wanting to be so desperate. What would Jesus say? This is not a parable about giving money to the poor.

It saddens me when people of the church of JESUS CHRIST preach against his basic most important teachings! Who is your God? Whose church is this really?

Who is preaching against anything? Many excellent reasons have been given here for adorning temples in the manner they are. I don't feel the need to repeat them, but it would be worth your while to review them.

[David13]

"We all" meaning those who don't support the Prophets and Apostles of Jesus Christ or trust them to know what He would want.

Not sure what it is going to take to help people understand that its not just about giving money to the poor. There is so much more that goes into this. Do we lack the faith in understanding that giving our best to the Lord, and putting him first and sacrificing to worship him qualify us to receive power and miracles from heaven. Becoming pure in heart is the answer to ridding the world of poverty and that is what the temple is all about. I would spend every last ounce of money for the opportunity for all of us to learn this principle.

Actually, as has been pointed out here, it would be impossible to ever rid the world of poverty due to the simple fact that there are people who very much like living in "poverty" because it enables them to live their life as they want to live it.
I have never felt that it should be up to me to believe I have the power, or the money, or the ego or whatever, to take that away from them.
dc

It seems some are clueless about what extreme poverty is - like LACK of clean water, food, basic health care. Have you ever been to a home with a dirt floor and leaking tin roof? Have you known people who suffered or even died for lack of simple medical treatment because they had no access to it? Remember that the US is not the world.

Try telling Jesus that the good Samaritan story was irrelevant because it was encouraging giving to someone wanting to be so desperate. What would Jesus say?

It saddens me when people of the church of JESUS CHRIST preach against his basic most important teachings! Who is your God? Whose church is this really?

That just seems rather non responsive to what I posted.

How would Jesus react to those poverty situation? How does he respond?

It's almost as if you blame me for poverty.
dc

[Red]

When antichrists I know throw this accusation at me I have a simple and humble response ready to go:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent over $1.2 billion on humanitarian aid. How about the charities you donate money to?

Of course these people don't donate; they only oppose religion, so at this point they start kicking against the pricks. If they try telling me how much more we could have spent I am again ready to rebut:
Without the organization, teachings, and temples of this church the billion and a quarter would not have been donated.

Source: http://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi ... an-efforts

While that is true, the fact is $1.2 billion is a very small amount compared to the funds and assets the church has at its disposal. Especially over a timeframe of a number of years, which is how that figure is arrived at.
And while an argument can be made in favour of the church's position regarding temples, which is the topic of the OP, we start to get into difficulties when things like City Creek are considered.

That said, we are a church and not a homeless charity.

You said we are a church not a homeless charity... that had me considering something.... I work in oil and gas and one of my clients is incredibly decent. This company is very fair when they pay for right of way easements. Recently, this company has bent over backward for the church to cross some of the church’s farm ground. They offered the church eight times the value of the property, yet the church could retain full use of the property. Pipelines are minimally disturbing in farm ground areas because crops are frequently rotated. In spite of all of this, the church has pushed the company so far that they began condemnation proceedings against the church. When this happened, the church refused to work with this company on a separate project because the first project began condmenation proceedings. The church essentially threw a hissy fit. Not only did the church throw a fit, but they reneged on previously agreed-to contracts once the company dropped the condemnation suit. The church agreed to settle it outside of court then went back on their word. I can’t rectify this in my mind with the values we are taught by the church. It’s going on three months that the church agreed to settle out of court and they’re still giving this company the run around. They lied. They lied about the agreement they made out of court. They didn’t honor their agreement. I keep thinking about it because many other contractors and the company I work for have asked me, “aren’t these your people? I thought they were supposed to be good and not lie? You act better than your church, why is this?”

So yeah, we are a church, but what does that mean? It bothers me. The deceit bothers me.

[Robin Hood]

When antichrists I know throw this accusation at me I have a simple and humble response ready to go:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent over $1.2 billion on humanitarian aid. How about the charities you donate money to?

Of course these people don't donate; they only oppose religion, so at this point they start kicking against the pricks. If they try telling me how much more we could have spent I am again ready to rebut:
Without the organization, teachings, and temples of this church the billion and a quarter would not have been donated.

Source: http://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi ... an-efforts

While that is true, the fact is $1.2 billion is a very small amount compared to the funds and assets the church has at its disposal. Especially over a timeframe of a number of years, which is how that figure is arrived at.
And while an argument can be made in favour of the church's position regarding temples, which is the topic of the OP, we start to get into difficulties when things like City Creek are considered.

That said, we are a church and not a homeless charity.

You said we are a church not a homeless charity... that had me considering something.... I work in oil and gas and one of my clients is incredibly decent. This company is very fair when they pay for right of way easements. Recently, this company has bent over backward for the church to cross some of the church’s farm ground. They offered the church eight times the value of the property, yet the church could retain full use of the property. Pipelines are minimally disturbing in farm ground areas because crops are frequently rotated. In spite of all of this, the church has pushed the company so far that they began condemnation proceedings against the church. When this happened, the church refused to work with this company on a separate project because the first project began condmenation proceedings. The church essentially threw a hissy fit. Not only did the church throw a fit, but they reneged on previously agreed-to contracts once the company dropped the condemnation suit. The church agreed to settle it outside of court then went back on their word. I can’t rectify this in my mind with the values we are taught by the church. It’s going on three months that the church agreed to settle out of court and they’re still giving this company the run around. They lied. They lied about the agreement they made out of court. They didn’t honor their agreement. I keep thinking about it because many other contractors and the company I work for have asked me, “aren’t these your people? I thought they were supposed to be good and not lie? You act better than your church, why is this?”

So yeah, we are a church, but what does that mean? It bothers me. The deceit bothers me.

Although only anecdotal, I have seen examples of the corporate church employing tactics which are not in keeping with it's teachings.
A friend of mine left a good job to go and work for the church. He lasted a few months and went back to his old job. He was very disillusioned at the way the church does it's business, and it wasn't just the "jobsworth" types either. His biggest problem was with some of the GA's.

[Thinker]

Some have called the church more of a corporate empire than a church. Some say both.
There’s plenty of good about the church. And I like the idea of creating beautiful art and architecture which temples have. Having high standards is something I also have seen as inspiring at times. It’s not all-or-nothing (polarized/bi-polar) thinking. There can be and often is opposition in all things, including temples. Some aspects about how temples are used to make money and used to manipulate and break up families are simply NOT of God, and are actually against what Christ taught. I realize many suffer from cognitive dissonance so when they come across a fact that threatens their belief, they choose to deny or ignore the fact in order to maintain their previous belief. I’ve done this before because I used to think that the negative feeling of being wrong was the adversary when it was just that I had been mistaken.

Ultimately it comes down to who is your God - a church, or God? If it is a church that you prioritize, then forget the poor and put all your focus, money, and energy into the church. If it is God and following Christ, then focus on loving and caring for the many who are in so much need, above even the most ornately beautiful temple buildings. Yes, you can do both, but ultimately one will prioritize over the other.

[The Airbender]

This is a good topic. Who is the Book of Mormon Prophet here referring to in the scriptures below? Note, who else could pollute the "Holy Church of God"?
"Mormon chapter 8
[37] For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel (city creek?), and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

[38] O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies -- because of the praise of the world?"

What "church" do we belong to? I know I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but that isn't a real church; It is a trademark of The Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints . I mean, we might be members of the Holy Church of God, but there are definitely cancerous parts of this massive body. That is why it begins upon His house.

As far as the OP, I don't think our temples are too expensive, but I do think we are off in others ways. City Creek is part of that.

[Thinker]

When antichrists I know throw this accusation at me I have a simple and humble response ready to go:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent over $1.2 billion on humanitarian aid. How about the charities you donate money to?

Of course these people don't donate; they only oppose religion, so at this point they start kicking against the pricks. If they try telling me how much more we could have spent I am again ready to rebut:
Without the organization, teachings, and temples of this church the billion and a quarter would not have been donated.

Source: http://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi ... an-efforts

How do you know?
Finances are kept secret in the church.
How much is the church worth?
We don’t know.
What we do know is that the law of tithing is NOT being kept by our church leaders, by their own admission. Oaks admitted that no tithes go to the poor. Deut. 14:28-29 states that 1/3 of TITHES are supposed to go to the poor. That’s the lower law; Jesus suggested giving much more. Try searching “tithing” in your triple combination scriptures... you won’t find Deut. 14:28-29. Such an important scripture is not included in our teachings! Why? Maybe because it’s not obeyed. We are held up anually to see if WE are worthy tithing payers, but the same cannot be said of others who deal with sacred funds.

What is anti-Christ is to neglect the poor and the greatest commandments Christ taught, “which hang all of the law and the prophets.”

[I AM]

When antichrists I know throw this accusation at me I have a simple and humble response ready to go:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent over $1.2 billion on humanitarian aid. How about the charities you donate money to?

Of course these people don't donate; they only oppose religion, so at this point they start kicking against the pricks. If they try telling me how much more we could have spent I am again ready to rebut:
Without the organization, teachings, and temples of this church the billion and a quarter would not have been donated.

Source: http://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi ... an-efforts

How do you know?
Finances are kept secret in the church.
How much is the church worth?
We don’t know.
What we do know is that the law of tithing is NOT being kept by our church leaders, by their own admission. Oaks admitted that no tithes go to the poor. Deut. 14:28-29 states that 1/3 of TITHES are supposed to go to the poor. That’s the lower law; Jesus suggested giving much more. Try searching “tithing” in your triple combination scriptures... you won’t find Deut. 14:28-29. Such an important scripture is not included in our teachings! Why? Maybe because it’s not obeyed. We are held up anually to see if WE are worthy tithing payers, but the same cannot be said of others who deal with sacred funds.

What is anti-Christ is to neglect the poor and the greatest commandments Christ taught, “which hang all of the law and the prophets.”

----------------------------------------
at least this gives you an idea of what the corporation is like
and the church's REAL-ESTATE HOLDINGS.
and this is clear back in 1991.
just think what it must be worth now.


https://www.deseretnews.com/article/170 ... DINGS.html

[I AM]

Some have called the church more of a corporate empire than a church. Some say both.
There’s plenty of good about the church. And I like the idea of creating beautiful art and architecture which temples have. Having high standards is something I also have seen as inspiring at times. It’s not all-or-nothing (polarized/bi-polar) thinking. There can be and often is opposition in all things, including temples. Some aspects about how temples are used to make money and used to manipulate and break up families are simply NOT of God, and are actually against what Christ taught. I realize many suffer from cognitive dissonance so when they come across a fact that threatens their belief, they choose to deny or ignore the fact in order to maintain their previous belief. I’ve done this before because I used to think that the negative feeling of being wrong was the adversary when it was just that I had been mistaken.

Ultimately it comes down to who is your God - a church, or God? If it is a church that you prioritize, then forget the poor and put all your focus, money, and energy into the church. If it is God and following Christ, then focus on loving and caring for the many who are in so much need, above even the most ornately beautiful temple buildings. Yes, you can do both, but ultimately one will prioritize over the other.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And then there's $2 billion malls that we build as well.
" LDS Owned City Creek Center in Salt Lake City - 1 2 3 Let's Go Shopping! "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOx1sA0Femo

[The Airbender]

When antichrists I know throw this accusation at me I have a simple and humble response ready to go:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent over $1.2 billion on humanitarian aid. How about the charities you donate money to?

Of course these people don't donate; they only oppose religion, so at this point they start kicking against the pricks. If they try telling me how much more we could have spent I am again ready to rebut:
Without the organization, teachings, and temples of this church the billion and a quarter would not have been donated.

Source: http://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi ... an-efforts

While that is true, the fact is $1.2 billion is a very small amount compared to the funds and assets the church has at its disposal. Especially over a timeframe of a number of years, which is how that figure is arrived at.
And while an argument can be made in favour of the church's position regarding temples, which is the topic of the OP, we start to get into difficulties when things like City Creek are considered.

That said, we are a church and not a homeless charity.

You said we are a church not a homeless charity... that had me considering something.... I work in oil and gas and one of my clients is incredibly decent. This company is very fair when they pay for right of way easements. Recently, this company has bent over backward for the church to cross some of the church’s farm ground. They offered the church eight times the value of the property, yet the church could retain full use of the property. Pipelines are minimally disturbing in farm ground areas because crops are frequently rotated. In spite of all of this, the church has pushed the company so far that they began condemnation proceedings against the church. When this happened, the church refused to work with this company on a separate project because the first project began condmenation proceedings. The church essentially threw a hissy fit. Not only did the church throw a fit, but they reneged on previously agreed-to contracts once the company dropped the condemnation suit. The church agreed to settle it outside of court then went back on their word. I can’t rectify this in my mind with the values we are taught by the church. It’s going on three months that the church agreed to settle out of court and they’re still giving this company the run around. They lied. They lied about the agreement they made out of court. They didn’t honor their agreement. I keep thinking about it because many other contractors and the company I work for have asked me, “aren’t these your people? I thought they were supposed to be good and not lie? You act better than your church, why is this?”

So yeah, we are a church, but what does that mean? It bothers me. The deceit bothers me.

Well, technically we are not a church. I mean, I guess technically-technically you could say a body of members can be a church but... The "Church" is a corporation called The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We haven't had a "church" since 1890. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is just a trademark of the above corporation. Whether that is right or wrong is not our business, I suppose. However, there is a LOT of corruption on many levels of our corporation.

If you ever start investigating the kinds of holding of our supposed church you will find things like big ticket hunting reserves where someone can pay thousands of dollars to shoot an animal, stuff it and mount it on their wall. This is not a "provide for your family" type of hunting. It is expensive, wasteful sport. Whether that is right or wrong is up to those in charge and those who buy the tags. I know I couldn't stomach it.

City Creek in and of itself is suspicious, but there are also billions and billions of dollars sunk into it that cannot be accounted for.

I know that the men who lead our church are more worried about the secret combinations within the church than they are of the ones outside the church, such as in California and Washington DC. I bet they pray every day for the cleansing to begin.

[gardener4life]

You have to just separate this into the 10 virgins regarding how members work in the workplace, both as normal members and any position up or down the line. There are wise virgins and foolish virgins. I hope there are 5 wise though because in my life time I've seen mostly only foolish virgins.

A foolish virgin will ride people hard as an employer because they are always out of oil and haven't learned how to share their toys. When someone has an empty account they are more stressed out to fill it back up. In the process they hurt people. Also when they get caught up in greed, even when having enough they will do the same. People can also be greedy about things they don't own, but belong to organizations of.

A wise virgin will be kind, and helpful of others. They will be tolerant of those that aren't as skillful, or efficient as they are. Helpful, courteous, kind, thifty...D&C 4 christ like attributes.

I could write down some of my foolish virgin stories here but I think they'd make some of you cry. And others wouldn't believe that people could be that cruel.

[moving2zion]

I helped a friend who was living on the streets by choice. He just about took a bullet to the head while on the street. Finding the right girl is what pulled him into reality. Now they are married, have kids and he has a good job- even looking at starting his own company. We gave him a place to sleep, food, and a temporary job, he walked away from the help. On the point of the temples I have often thought that having the Lord's house be a few levels nicer than anything I can afford causes us to look up a bit, gives us an idea of what heaven might be like.

[brianj]

When antichrists I know throw this accusation at me I have a simple and humble response ready to go:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent over $1.2 billion on humanitarian aid. How about the charities you donate money to?

Of course these people don't donate; they only oppose religion, so at this point they start kicking against the pricks. If they try telling me how much more we could have spent I am again ready to rebut:
Without the organization, teachings, and temples of this church the billion and a quarter would not have been donated.

Source: http://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi ... an-efforts

How do you know?
Finances are kept secret in the church.
How much is the church worth?
We don’t know.
What we do know is that the law of tithing is NOT being kept by our church leaders, by their own admission. Oaks admitted that no tithes go to the poor. Deut. 14:28-29 states that 1/3 of TITHES are supposed to go to the poor. That’s the lower law; Jesus suggested giving much more. Try searching “tithing” in your triple combination scriptures... you won’t find Deut. 14:28-29. Such an important scripture is not included in our teachings! Why? Maybe because it’s not obeyed. We are held up anually to see if WE are worthy tithing payers, but the same cannot be said of others who deal with sacred funds.

What is anti-Christ is to neglect the poor and the greatest commandments Christ taught, “which hang all of the law and the prophets.”

How do I know what? That the church has spent over $1,200,000,000.000 on humanitarian aid? I know this because the church released the number back in 2016. See the link I provided. How do I know they don't donate? Because they scoff at the idea. Because they say that government should take money from somebody else and give it to the poor. Because when taxes were lowered earlier this year they spoke about what they would spend the money on even as they complained that it wasn't going to the poor and mocked the idea of giving it away directly.

I really don't care how much the church is worth, and I do not want that made available because I know it will lead to criticism and new attacks on the church.

I will not speak evil of the church leaders. I have a testimony that they are lead by revelation and that they are accountable to God if they misuse or misdirect church funds. Oh, and you will find that general authorities are members of wards and are asked to participate in tithing settlement with their bishops just as we are asked to have tithing settlement with our bishop.

[Thinker]

When antichrists I know throw this accusation at me I have a simple and humble response ready to go:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent over $1.2 billion on humanitarian aid. How about the charities you donate money to?

Of course these people don't donate; they only oppose religion, so at this point they start kicking against the pricks. If they try telling me how much more we could have spent I am again ready to rebut:
Without the organization, teachings, and temples of this church the billion and a quarter would not have been donated.

Source: http://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi ... an-efforts

How do you know?
Finances are kept secret in the church.
How much is the church worth?
We don’t know.
What we do know is that the law of tithing is NOT being kept by our church leaders, by their own admission. Oaks admitted that no tithes go to the poor. Deut. 14:28-29 states that 1/3 of TITHES are supposed to go to the poor. That’s the lower law; Jesus suggested giving much more. Try searching “tithing” in your triple combination scriptures... you won’t find Deut. 14:28-29. Such an important scripture is not included in our teachings! Why? Maybe because it’s not obeyed. We are held up anually to see if WE are worthy tithing payers, but the same cannot be said of others who deal with sacred funds.

What is anti-Christ is to neglect the poor and the greatest commandments Christ taught, “which hang all of the law and the prophets.”

How do I know what? That the church has spent over $1,200,000,000.000 on humanitarian aid? I know this because the church released the number back in 2016. See the link I provided. How do I know they don't donate? Because they scoff at the idea. Because they say that government should take money from somebody else and give it to the poor. Because when taxes were lowered earlier this year they spoke about what they would spend the money on even as they complained that it wasn't going to the poor and mocked the idea of giving it away directly.

I really don't care how much the church is worth, and I do not want that made available because I know it will lead to criticism and new attacks on the church.

I will not speak evil of the church leaders. I have a testimony that they are lead by revelation and that they are accountable to God if they misuse or misdirect church funds. Oh, and you will find that general authorities are members of wards and are asked to participate in tithing settlement with their bishops just as we are asked to have tithing settlement with our bishop.

When you consider the income of average Americans over their lifetime, we’d all be millionaires!!!
To make it look bigger, that figure you quoted is over many years (not just one), as mentioned. So it is an inaccurate reflection of what is really happening.
Also, that figure is based on fast offerings members give, not a penny of tithing.
So you’d think it would be MUCH more, but then again it does say on donation slips, “all donations become the church’s property and will be used at the church’s sole discretion.”
Is it ok for tithing collectors to disobey the law of tithing?
No. And I cannot in good conscience support it.
It is very clear that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to the poor. That’s the lower law. Christ suggested giving much more.

My God is God, not a church. I prioritize Christ and his teachings - including to care for those who desperately need it. According to the World Health Organization, almost 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are “chronically hungry.” Many die EVERY DAY due to related causes. I’d love to support an organization that prioritizes researching and figuring out how to best help in each area where so many people suffer, rather than putting so much effort in building yet another shopping mall using Jesus Christ’s name.

[gardener4life]

When antichrists I know throw this accusation at me I have a simple and humble response ready to go:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent over $1.2 billion on humanitarian aid. How about the charities you donate money to?

Of course these people don't donate; they only oppose religion, so at this point they start kicking against the pricks. If they try telling me how much more we could have spent I am again ready to rebut:
Without the organization, teachings, and temples of this church the billion and a quarter would not have been donated.

Source: http://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi ... an-efforts

How do you know?
Finances are kept secret in the church.
How much is the church worth?
We don’t know.
What we do know is that the law of tithing is NOT being kept by our church leaders, by their own admission. Oaks admitted that no tithes go to the poor. Deut. 14:28-29 states that 1/3 of TITHES are supposed to go to the poor. That’s the lower law; Jesus suggested giving much more. Try searching “tithing” in your triple combination scriptures... you won’t find Deut. 14:28-29. Such an important scripture is not included in our teachings! Why? Maybe because it’s not obeyed. We are held up anually to see if WE are worthy tithing payers, but the same cannot be said of others who deal with sacred funds.

What is anti-Christ is to neglect the poor and the greatest commandments Christ taught, “which hang all of the law and the prophets.”

How do I know what? That the church has spent over $1,200,000,000.000 on humanitarian aid? I know this because the church released the number back in 2016. See the link I provided. How do I know they don't donate? Because they scoff at the idea. Because they say that government should take money from somebody else and give it to the poor. Because when taxes were lowered earlier this year they spoke about what they would spend the money on even as they complained that it wasn't going to the poor and mocked the idea of giving it away directly.

I really don't care how much the church is worth, and I do not want that made available because I know it will lead to criticism and new attacks on the church.

I will not speak evil of the church leaders. I have a testimony that they are lead by revelation and that they are accountable to God if they misuse or misdirect church funds. Oh, and you will find that general authorities are members of wards and are asked to participate in tithing settlement with their bishops just as we are asked to have tithing settlement with our bishop.

When you consider the income of average Americans over their lifetime, we’d all be millionaires!!!
To make it look bigger, that figure you quoted is over many years (not just one), as mentioned. So it is an inaccurate reflection of what is really happening.
Also, that figure is based on fast offerings members give, not a penny of tithing.
So you’d think it would be MUCH more, but then again it does say on donation slips, “all donations become the church’s property and will be used at the church’s sole discretion.”
Is it ok for tithing collectors to disobey the law of tithing?
No. And I cannot in good conscience support it.
It is very clear that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to the poor. That’s the lower law. Christ suggested giving much more.

My God is God, not a church. I prioritize Christ and his teachings - including to care for those who desperately need it. According to the World Health Organization, almost 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are “chronically hungry.” Many die EVERY DAY due to related causes. I’d love to support an organization that prioritizes researching and figuring out how to best help in each area where so many people suffer, rather than putting so much effort in building yet another shopping mall using Jesus Christ’s name.

Hey this was a nice comment. I hope more people appreciate it.

You know also I was reading recently in the D&C that leaders are supposed to try to use funds for what they were donated for. But as I was reading it in between the lines it was clear that they were being told that in order to prevent theft of funds rather than being inflexible to the needs of others. We've seen over and over again leaders have made comments about whether or not a program would work or not based on if it met the needs of the people (like comments on the Scouting program). If there was no temptation for theft of funds then I think that the funds for tithing and other uses could be used however is necessary to build up the Lord's work. (After all his work is to 'bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man'. If his goal really is the immortality and eternal life of man then that is also a directive on a way for how to use resources.)

Proverbs 31:9,20

9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

There are also endless scriptures on helping the needy.

[I AM]

When antichrists I know throw this accusation at me I have a simple and humble response ready to go:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent over $1.2 billion on humanitarian aid. How about the charities you donate money to?

Of course these people don't donate; they only oppose religion, so at this point they start kicking against the pricks. If they try telling me how much more we could have spent I am again ready to rebut:
Without the organization, teachings, and temples of this church the billion and a quarter would not have been donated.

Source: http://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi ... an-efforts

How do you know?
Finances are kept secret in the church.
How much is the church worth?
We don’t know.
What we do know is that the law of tithing is NOT being kept by our church leaders, by their own admission. Oaks admitted that no tithes go to the poor. Deut. 14:28-29 states that 1/3 of TITHES are supposed to go to the poor. That’s the lower law; Jesus suggested giving much more. Try searching “tithing” in your triple combination scriptures... you won’t find Deut. 14:28-29. Such an important scripture is not included in our teachings! Why? Maybe because it’s not obeyed. We are held up anually to see if WE are worthy tithing payers, but the same cannot be said of others who deal with sacred funds.

What is anti-Christ is to neglect the poor and the greatest commandments Christ taught, “which hang all of the law and the prophets.”

How do I know what? That the church has spent over $1,200,000,000.000 on humanitarian aid? I know this because the church released the number back in 2016. See the link I provided. How do I know they don't donate? Because they scoff at the idea. Because they say that government should take money from somebody else and give it to the poor. Because when taxes were lowered earlier this year they spoke about what they would spend the money on even as they complained that it wasn't going to the poor and mocked the idea of giving it away directly.

I really don't care how much the church is worth, and I do not want that made available because I know it will lead to criticism and new attacks on the church.

I will not speak evil of the church leaders. I have a testimony that they are lead by revelation and that they are accountable to God if they misuse or misdirect church funds. Oh, and you will find that general authorities are members of wards and are asked to participate in tithing settlement with their bishops just as we are asked to have tithing settlement with our bishop.

When you consider the income of average Americans over their lifetime, we’d all be millionaires!!!
To make it look bigger, that figure you quoted is over many years (not just one), as mentioned. So it is an inaccurate reflection of what is really happening.
Also, that figure is based on fast offerings members give, not a penny of tithing.
So you’d think it would be MUCH more, but then again it does say on donation slips, “all donations become the church’s property and will be used at the church’s sole discretion.”
Is it ok for tithing collectors to disobey the law of tithing?
No. And I cannot in good conscience support it.
It is very clear that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to the poor. That’s the lower law. Christ suggested giving much more.

My God is God, not a church. I prioritize Christ and his teachings - including to care for those who desperately need it. According to the World Health Organization, almost 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are “chronically hungry.” Many die EVERY DAY due to related causes. I’d love to support an organization that prioritizes researching and figuring out how to best help in each area where so many people suffer, rather than putting so much effort in building yet another shopping mall using Jesus Christ’s name.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's because we are no longer a "peculiar people".
We as a church and a people have tried to "fit in" to the world
and have made great progress in acquiring wealth and status.

"And when the spirit of persecution, the spirit of hatred, of wrath, and malice ceases in the world against this people,
it will be the time that this people have apostatized and joined hands with the wicked,
and never until then; which I pray may never come."

Brigham Young, May 31, 1857, JD 4:327.
--------------------------------------------------------
“After a while the Gentiles will gather to this place by the thousands, and Salt Lake will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the result will be financial bondage.” (Heber C. Kimball, as related by Amanda H. Wilcox, May 1868; see also J. Golden Kimball, by Richards, p. 363)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
“But the time will come when the Lord will choose a people out of this people upon whom he will bestow his choicest blessings.”
(Heber C. Kimball, Des. News, Nov. 9, 1865; see J.D. 11:145)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://liahonachildren.org/
https://liahonachildren.org/who-we-are/our-story

"Nearly a hundred thousand LDS children have been identified as needing help with nutrition. "

"In 2008 and 2009, groups of students from universities in Utah visited four Stakes in Ecuador and five Stakes in Guatemala to screen LDS children and their friends for malnutrition. A Stake is an area composed of multiple congregations or wards of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Hundreds of children were waiting at local LDS meetinghouses to be screened when the students arrived. In two weeks, the groups screened over 2,200 children for malnutrition in cooperation with the LDS Stake presidencies. Around 30% of the children screened in the four Ecuador stakes and 50% of children screened in the five Guatemala stakes were determined to be malnourished according to guidelines set by The World Health Organization. "

[I AM]

"When you consider the income of average Americans over their lifetime, we’d all be millionaires!!! "
so true Thinker.
reminds me of just how blessed we all are.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS



If you woke up this morning with more health than illness...

you are more blessed than the one million

who will not survive this week.



If you have never experienced the danger of battle,

the loneliness of imprisonment, the agony of torture,

or the pangs of starvation...

you are ahead of 500 million people in the world.



If you can attend a church or synagogue without

fear of harassment, arrest, torture, or death...

you are more blessed than three million people

in the world.



If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back,

a roof overhead, and a place to sleep,

you are richer than 75% of the world.



If you have money in the bank, in your wallet,

and spare change in a dish someplace...

you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy.



If your parents are still alive and still married...

you are very rare, even in the United States.



If you hold up your head with a smile on your face

and are truly thankful... you are blessed

because the majority can, but most do not.



If you can hold someone's hand, hug them

or even touch them on the shoulder...you are blessed

because you can offer a healing touch.



If you can read this message, you just recieved

a double blessing in that someone was thinking of you,

and furthermore, you are blessed than over two billion people

in the world that cannot read at all.



Have a good day, COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS,

and pass this along to remind everyone else

just how blessed we all are.

[brianj]

Is it ok for tithing collectors to disobey the law of tithing?
No. And I cannot in good conscience support it.
It is very clear that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to the poor. That’s the lower law. Christ suggested giving much more.

My God is God, not a church. I prioritize Christ and his teachings - including to care for those who desperately need it. According to the World Health Organization, almost 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are “chronically hungry.” Many die EVERY DAY due to related causes. I’d love to support an organization that prioritizes researching and figuring out how to best help in each area where so many people suffer, rather than putting so much effort in building yet another shopping mall using Jesus Christ’s name.

My wife is living with another man, prolonging our divorce and raising the cost for reasons I can speculate on but can't definitively provide. Since the law of Moses calls for her to be stoned, can I send you a rock and her address?

Probably not, because it's a crime and because you know the law of Moses no longer applies. And if we don't stone those who commit adultery or children who are disrespectful to parents, then we can't pick and choose by claiming other parts of the law of Moses still apply.

God is not a church, as you stated. But what role does the church play?
Is this the true church of Jesus Christ?
If so, does Jesus Christ call church leaders and direct their efforts?
If so, are the leaders acting in accordance with revelation in spending tithing?
If so, then should we criticize our leaders?

[Thinker]

Is it ok for tithing collectors to disobey the law of tithing?
No. And I cannot in good conscience support it.
It is very clear that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to the poor. That’s the lower law. Christ suggested giving much more.

My God is God, not a church. I prioritize Christ and his teachings - including to care for those who desperately need it. According to the World Health Organization, almost 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are “chronically hungry.” Many die EVERY DAY due to related causes. I’d love to support an organization that prioritizes researching and figuring out how to best help in each area where so many people suffer, rather than putting so much effort in building yet another shopping mall using Jesus Christ’s name.

My wife is living with another man, prolonging our divorce and raising the cost for reasons I can speculate on but can't definitively provide. Since the law of Moses calls for her to be stoned, can I send you a rock and her address?

Probably not, because it's a crime and because you know the law of Moses no longer applies. And if we don't stone those who commit adultery or children who are disrespectful to parents, then we can't pick and choose by claiming other parts of the law of Moses still apply.

God is not a church, as you stated. But what role does the church play?
Is this the true church of Jesus Christ?
If so, does Jesus Christ call church leaders and direct their efforts?
If so, are the leaders acting in accordance with revelation in spending tithing?
If so, then should we criticize our leaders?

You made me laugh about the stone and address.
I am glad that at least some things are going well for you. As for that which is hard and heart-breaking - this too shall pass.
Hopefully after going through this, you will be stronger and wiser for it - so some good will come from it.

Ok. Now, back to the discussion...
If you somehow are under the impression that the law of Moses does not apply, reconsider the 10 commandments and how Moses is honored in our US capitol as a significant law-maker. Obviously I’m not for stoning anyone or counting steps on the sabbath & other ridiculous laws, but I am for laws that make sense like “thou shalt not steal” and Love God and others as yourself..”on these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” In other words, laws like giving at LEAST 1/3 of TITHES to the poor is in keeping with the greatest commandment which prioritizes above other laws and prophets.

[mtm411]

I agree with you, and it makes me worry.